Messerschmitt

Talk about CoH1 or BKMOD1 in general.
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Viper
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Messerschmitt

Postby Viper » 23 Feb 2019, 17:00

this strafe run harms and kills jumbo shermans. although it cant harm normal shermans, churchills, or pershings. so why jumbos have to die? i think this was fixed before but the bug returned.

and it can harm and kill hellcat, achilles and m36 b1 jackson with sherman armor.

but can not harm m10 wolverine or m36 with wolverine armor. although they are all open roof tanks and all of them should die :!:

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Warhawks97
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Feb 2019, 17:26

Viper wrote:this strafe run harms and kills jumbo shermans. although it cant harm normal shermans, churchills, or pershings. so why jumbos have to die? i think this was fixed before but the bug returned.


thats weird



but can not harm m10 wolverine or m36 with wolverine armor. although they are all open roof tanks and all of them should die :!:


a chance to harm them. Taking out such a unit outright would be OP. Total destruction would be hard to achive. It might be top open but it doesnt mean to hit the ammo. You would have to attack from a perfect angel, slightly from above the gun and hoping to achieve a hit into the ready racks and even then doesnt mean it blow up.

During normandy campaign crews of M10´s got killed by shots and grenades into the open turret but they were not unrepairable.
So i would leave it with taking damage. M18 might die bc the 20 mm can potentially pen every part of it, depending on distance and angel. The Messerschmitt flight fires just a handfull 20 mm rounds into the target area (5 or 6 or so) and probably not all of them would hit the target. That in turn means you want an M36 blow up by a single or two 20 mm rounds just bc there is one spot unprotected. Its afterall a tank.

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Viper
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby Viper » 23 Feb 2019, 18:55

i agree it should not kill them instantly. but at least damage them. except priest and hellcat. these 2 are supposed to die or survive barely.

and the american strafe should have ap bullets.

winterflaw
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby winterflaw » 23 Feb 2019, 19:14

Top armour on tanks is normally much thinner the front and side armour, maybe even thinner than rear armour.

Wikipedia says 25mm top and bottom for Tiger I.

Can't find figures for M10.

Panther rear hull top 16mm.

Sd.Kfz. 251 wikipedia says 6 to 14.5mm armour (does not indicate if this covers top/botom).

Sherman turret roof 25mm (wikipedia again).

This site;

https://panzerworld.com/armor-penetration-table

Says 20mm cannon with AP penetrates about 20mm to 15mm, 100m/500m ranges.

With APCR, 40mm to 20mm (same ranges).

Googling (and WW2 photos of strafing) indicate heights of 200m down to as low as 30m.

I would say then, on first blush, that with ACPR ammo, these planes can perfectly well wipe tanks out. The shells will simply penetrate the armour.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Feb 2019, 03:03

being penetrated doesent mean death outright lol. Even heavier guns often had to hit the target several times before destroying it. Like what you think would happen when penetrating the engine deck deck armor? You think it blows up right away? Perhaps try to shoot with an mg at a vehicle and see what happens when you hit the engine. Tell me when the car blew up right away.


It would look to strange when guns have to hit a tank multiple times to kill it completely while a simple strafe with a single 20 mm shot would make the tank blowing up.

winterflaw
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby winterflaw » 24 Feb 2019, 11:39

Warhawks97 wrote:being penetrated doesent mean death outright lol.


No-o-o-o-o, I concur.

But it is very dangerous.

Even heavier guns often had to hit the target several times before destroying it.


Mmmm, no-o-o-o-o... not so much I think. I may be wrong, but I think if a shell penetrates armour, the crew usually abandon the tank. They know they can be hit, they know another shell will be on the way, and very ilkely they cannot get into cover before the next round arrives.

Any shell entering the crew compartment is pretty much fatal, I think - that much metal at that much speed. People are going to die or be injured, from the shell itself or fragments of metal from the hull flying around.

In fact a tank really is like most things the minimum set of things needed to make a given entity. Engine, fuel, ammo, crew, gun. If you put a great big lump of metal through one or more of these things, I agree the tank can in some situations still move - maybe the gun is destroyed and most of the damage is external - but in general, big problems.

Certainly in WW2 from what I've read it's common practise to put a few rounds into a hit enemy tank, just to make sure.

Like what you think would happen when penetrating the engine deck deck armor? You think it blows up right away?


I think the engine stops working. "Wipes tanks" was a rather emphatic phrase, rather than something intended literally. You get a mobility kill. If the units involved are pushing forward, the vehicle can be recovered for repair. Otherwise, it's lost.

It would look to strange when guns have to hit a tank multiple times to kill it completely while a simple strafe with a single 20 mm shot would make the tank blowing up.


If a 75mm gun is firing against Jumbo front armour, then indeed many hits could be required. If a 20mm cannon is firing against top armour, then indeed, one hit could be plenty - just as 75mm firing against a Stuart would only need one shot - and with an aircraft 20mm cannon you're looking at some rounds per second, so maybe a few hits, not just one, in any given strafe. If the 20mm shells penetrate the engine deck armour, engine stops working. If they penetrate turret top, then the turret crew are probably dead or incapacitated, which is normally three men - gunner, loader, commander.

There are basically levels of realism which COH as the basis for BKM cannot simulate.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Feb 2019, 19:48

In average it took 5 and more 20 mm hits to take down a b 17. For a 30 mm canon 3 hits were considered fatal. And these things had no armor except for crew members.

I just dont think that single 20 mm hit that partially penetrated would totally blew up a tank. Esspecially as the 20 mm would explode somwhere in the middle of the armor. So you might get a whole somewhere but a 20 mm isnt that much of a tank killer.
So you could kill open top tank crew but we dont have it in game. So taking some damage would be the only appropriate thing to reflect that.

winterflaw
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Re: Messerschmitt

Postby winterflaw » 24 Feb 2019, 21:32

Warhawks97 wrote:In average it took 5 and more 20 mm hits to take down a b 17. For a 30 mm canon 3 hits were considered fatal. And these things had no armor except for crew members.


They didn't tend to go for armour, but for redundency and a design which was durable. As long as a plane has wings, engines and can stand the stress of airflow, it tends to keep flying. What you care about is making sure important bits, like the rudder, don't fall off very easily - you give them multiple anchors, all of which must be shot away for failure to occur.

Tanks are small, compact targets. At the rear, the single engine, in the middle, the crew, all lumped together in a nice compact target - completely unlike a heavy bomber. One round through the armour in either location is a major problem. Fire a dozen rounds into a bomber wing, and so long as it stays in one piece, there's plenty of remaining lifting surface - they're made over-size in the first place.

We could imagine a tank about ten times the usual size, with the crew spread around in that area, multiple engines and no armour. Firing into that is a totally different proposition, and much more like shooting into a heavy bomber. As long as an engine remains, and you fail to knock out the driver, it would probably keep going.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it's very useful to make comparisons to heavy bombers.

I just dont think that single 20 mm hit that partially penetrated would totally blew up a tank.


Right. You said this in your earlier post, and I agreed with you.

Esspecially as the 20 mm would explode somwhere in the middle of the armor.


AP rounds don't explode. HE rounds explode. I think you mean partial penetration. Shrug - partial is the same as not penetrating. A 37mm cannon firing on a T34 achieves partial penetration =-)


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