Vampyre

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mofetagalactica
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Vampyre

Postby mofetagalactica » 06 Feb 2019, 20:28

Free maphacking and sucking resources out of oponnents while being cammo for just 220mp, when is gonna be the day that finally this units gets nerfed and get his cost raised, no one knows.

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: Vampyre

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 06 Feb 2019, 21:10

If you want to reach peak levels of omniscience as PE. Have one guy go Tank Hunters and immediately unlock 'tank awareness' and the other goes Luftwaffe and gets the Vampire.

Now you can see every single unit through the mini-map. Invisible TD's, Snipers, MG's, etc. From what I remember I think tank awareness also lets you spot invisible AT guns but I'm not sure now.

There are no 'surprises' you can instill on this PE combo because they see everything you are going to do through the mini-map (granted they have to tell each other what they see but that's pretty easy with good comms). Without ever needing kettenkrads as spotter units to see stuff for them.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Feb 2019, 21:31

Does this unit cost fuel?


Tank hunter at least requires infantry in the area that can be seen and doesnt show you at guns.. thats why you can only use at guns against a th player.
It also requires CP.


As we have this luft rework topic and discussion going on.... the Vampire should cost CP at least.

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Viper
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Viper » 06 Feb 2019, 22:36

vampire is disgusting. no deny. any other map cheating ability is disgusting too. for example, the radio triangulation device. maybe less disgusting than vampire but still disgusting.

but the approach of most complaints started to be a bit worrying. first it was panther in luftwaffe. last month it was hotchkiss. and now it is vampire. tomorrow it is zimmerit. next week it is the tank awareness ability. next month it will be everything else :?: :?: :?:

what is next on the menu?

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: Vampyre

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 06 Feb 2019, 23:23

I have my own problems with PE but tank awareness is not one of them.

I rather see it buffed so your TD's can automatically spot enemy tanks around thembecause that's what happens anyway when you put a tank commander inside a vehicle as PE. Since he counts as an infantry model and can spot hidden tanks by himself (I might be remembering this wrong but I'm pretty sure tank commanders can spot tanks through the mini-map). Even without that, just having a squad of Pgrens scouting ahead while looking at the mini-map is good enough. You only need the information for 2-3 seconds to see what's ahead of you as people don't generally move their TD's around too much when they put em into a camouflage spot (the spotting range in the mini-map is pretty massive too so you don't have to be anywhere close to these tanks to see them with inf). It feels like additional micro for no reason in the same vain of manual camouflage buttons for stuff like Rangers. If not the TD's, at least the light vehicles should be able to get tank awareness. Though I don't know if you can change the ability to select some unit types to give it too as vehicles and others not.

Edit: Nevermind, tank commanders can't spot tanks at all. I just remember it that way because the Pgrens had such a massive spotting range to see those tanks I thought it was my TD.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Feb 2019, 14:18

Viper wrote:vampire is disgusting. no deny. any other map cheating ability is disgusting too. for example, the radio triangulation device. maybe less disgusting than vampire but still disgusting.

but the approach of most complaints started to be a bit worrying. first it was panther in luftwaffe. last month it was hotchkiss. and now it is vampire. tomorrow it is zimmerit. next week it is the tank awareness ability. next month it will be everything else :?: :?: :?:

what is next on the menu?


I hadnt too many issues with hotchkiss except that it was early available, unlimited and that it was a super fast racing car. But it was always this effective when fired from the range currently required.... anyway, this topic is over as it seems.


Luftwaffe doc design is a whole different topic about "poor design" in terms of unlock/tec lines.

zimmerit is indeed a stupid thing ive never ever liked since starting BK. I hated it even more when i could see what it really does: 25% less taken damage from all sources.. thats big shit i would say, esspecially since its just a paste put on tanks.


Vampire is a ressource stealing (if you know how, very effecitve one as you can steal res from all points, not just the one its placed on. All territories linked to the one vampire is stationed and which got captured by enemie after the one the vampire sits on get stolen. So for example let the enemie cap a point at the middle of the map which territory expands into your zone, put a vampire on it and you might be able to steal ressources from ALL enemie points accross the map if those got captured later on [which often is the case}) map hack vehicle which doesnt cost CP, no fuel and which is the cheapest unit PE can get after kettenkrad. All other intelligence stuff cost CP or have requirments. The triangulation requires commandos landing/crawling to 3 points, hopefully undedected and leaving vulnerable beacons there.... So they require skill (where to put beacons and undetected), lots of MP (for commandos), CP and which you cant defend. Vampires can just sit there among your units, well protected and undetected usually.

So it should cost fuel (like any other vehicle), CP and have certain requirments.

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Death_Kitty
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Death_Kitty » 07 Feb 2019, 16:35

Viper wrote:vampire is disgusting. no deny. any other map cheating ability is disgusting too. for example, the radio triangulation device. maybe less disgusting than vampire but still disgusting.

but the approach of most complaints started to be a bit worrying. first it was panther in luftwaffe. last month it was hotchkiss. and now it is vampire. tomorrow it is zimmerit. next week it is the tank awareness ability. next month it will be everything else :?: :?: :?:

what is next on the menu?


What, making axis balanced? Yeah, I can see how you would be worried... To answer your question: Hetzer, Fallshirmjager, Stuka Patrol. And no, don't you dare spin this, it wasn't panther in luft. It was luft, period, because that doc IS poorly designed. (And i'll still go after the panzer 4 and StG.)

As for radio triangulation: At least that is given to an allied faction, through the simple fact that Allies have weaker, less cost effective units, it makes sense for them to get abilities like this. For a faction that has such good, cost effective and strong units, PE has so many crutch abilities it makes me giggle sometimes. Also, no resource steal. You want to talk about taking away archer/firefly from some brit docs, fine, i'll have that conversation, but all the things you mentioned, plus more things from PE are getting hit with the nerf hammer along the way.

Like it so easy:
Hetzer: 3 camo shots that can be reset, broken gun stats, cheap and available, can pen any allied tank save, what, 3? I can see the issue...
Falls: KCH reborn, dropping with camo, shreck, FG-42, with instant ridiculous offensive stats: i can see the issue...
Vampire: I can see the issue...
Hotchkiss: that thing was broken, no questions asked.
Tank awareness: Yes, lets get an ability that basically stops allies from being able to do anything effective with their tanks. Given to a faction with better tanks. I can see the issue...
Zimmerit: Through the magical power of magnetic paste, a faction's tanks gain more armor. For a faction that has trouble getting penned to begin with. I can see the issue...
StG: Yes, lets take a weapon that can do damage at short to mid range, is accurate, fully auto, and GIVE IT TO EVERYONE! I can see the issue...
PE tanks in general: Lets make every tank counter the sherman. Except the marder, but we wont force any docs to actually have to use it. Can you see the issue?

Like, it is so easy to see how PE gets all of this crap, and really does not need it. What problem does Zimmerit and TA solve for TH? What weakness to they fill in? They make tank hunter vehicles better vs Tanks. In a doctrine that has Panzer 4 and every TD known to man! Does this really have to be explained? Forget wher, they seem positively heavenly compared to PE.

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Viper
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Viper » 07 Feb 2019, 17:10

so you think panzer elite is overpowered?
ok. although i dont play this game regularly. but i think same thing with you. right?

i invite you to come and play 1vs1 together. at least 10 times. i will play allies and you will play "overpowered" axis. we can try all doctrines. show me how you really never lose with panzer elite.

what do you think? just friendly games. because i want to show you why i am worried.

after that we can upload the games on the forum.

Erich
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Erich » 07 Feb 2019, 19:06

Viper wrote:so you think panzer elite is overpowered?
ok. although i dont play this game regularly. but i think same thing with you. right?

i invite you to come and play 1vs1 together. at least 10 times. i will play allies and you will play "overpowered" axis. we can try all doctrines. show me how you really never lose with panzer elite.

what do you think? just friendly games. because i want to show you why i am worried.

after that we can upload the games on the forum.



Thank god sukin isnt here anymore, i guess he would nerf and buff everything he wanted by 1v1 matches.

What time to be alive

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Death_Kitty
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Death_Kitty » 07 Feb 2019, 19:27

Viper wrote:so you think panzer elite is overpowered?
ok. although i dont play this game regularly. but i think same thing with you. right?

i invite you to come and play 1vs1 together. at least 10 times. i will play allies and you will play "overpowered" axis. we can try all doctrines. show me how you really never lose with panzer elite.

what do you think? just friendly games. because i want to show you why i am worried.

after that we can upload the games on the forum.


While I would love to accept your challenge, there are a few issues:
1.) mod is balanced for teams. That would throw out any data we gather right off the bat
2.) If our skill levels are disparate for any reason, data gets thrown out. (I suspect you are better than me, but moot point)
3.) This mod should be balanced around the people who play it. It should be 10 2v2's, with each team of players playing 5 games as both allies and axis.
4.) If this were to happen, I would need a couple if things: some time to get antiquated with US and PE openings and strats, 5 games as US, 5 as Axis, ill play luft you play whatever US, then switch. Ill also need some time; I'm bricked by exams and other IRL stuff RN, I can hardly find time to play wikinger, let alone BK.

So I guess I conditionally accept your challenge. I'd feel better if we could put together a 2v2, and if you give me some time, but I will accept.
-cheese gets thrown out. Cheap strats can be easily balanced out. Its the wider game that is the concern.
-You play both allies and axis. If you smash my face in, both matchups, then skill was the factor, not balance
-I need time to get IRL sorted out, and learn current PE (which I have no played in a while) (I prefer wher)
- PE and US docs only

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Shanks
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Shanks » 07 Feb 2019, 20:54

Can someone donate money? 5000 dollars or more ... it's for a good cause, I explain ... I want to buy a CPU for sukin

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 07 Feb 2019, 21:30

If vampire would cost CP, fuel (like vehicles do) and a bit more Mp and no more res stealing, i think i could be fine bc then i could "outsapm" these vehicles with M20 or cal 50/RL jeeps. But right now all "anti vampire" units cost a lot more than this unit and its likely to lose several of them (logically when he can see your moves) before killing one of them.

Losing a vampire should hurt (its probably the most advanced tec in game) and getting one a strategic decision instead of "no brainer map hack".


Zimmerit needs to be reworked or replaced by something better/more logical stuff.

Tank awareness is fine as it is in my opinion.

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Viper
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Viper » 07 Feb 2019, 22:32

Death_Kitty wrote:While I would love to accept your challenge, there are a few issues:
1.) mod is balanced for teams. That would throw out any data we gather right off the bat
2.) If our skill levels are disparate for any reason, data gets thrown out. (I suspect you are better than me, but moot point)
3.) This mod should be balanced around the people who play it. It should be 10 2v2's, with each team of players playing 5 games as both allies and axis.
4.) If this were to happen, I would need a couple if things: some time to get antiquated with US and PE openings and strats, 5 games as US, 5 as Axis, ill play luft you play whatever US, then switch. Ill also need some time; I'm bricked by exams and other IRL stuff RN, I can hardly find time to play wikinger, let alone BK.

yes. not balanced for 1vs1 but thats why we will play with all doctrines.


for example. you think tank hunter doctrine vs american armor doctrine will not be balanced in 1vs1 because tank hunter is "allegedly" the counter for armor. right?

i will play with american armor vs tank hunter and i will score victory. not 1 time. not 2 times. but we will do that at least 3 times. just so i can show you why i am worried.

i accept your condition to play axis and allies. and i agree to play panzer elite vs american only. so get your real life together and train as much bk mod until you are ready for the challenge. i will find you on discord and reach out with you soon.

Warhawks97 wrote:no more res stealing

i think this what makes vampire special. i dont agree with this.

kwok
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Re: Vampyre

Postby kwok » 07 Feb 2019, 23:42

I'll 1v1. Not to prove anything, but I need to do some 1v1s.

The New BK Champion
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Re: Vampyre

Postby The New BK Champion » 08 Feb 2019, 01:31

Jesus, this forum has become such a garbage pit recently. Every topic becomes just a huge quarrel between the same people about the same things with the same arguments.

Realease the patch already for f*ck sake -_-

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Shanks
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Shanks » 09 Feb 2019, 10:53

Death kitty and Warhawks lied

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Feb 2019, 14:06

lied about what?

I could take it as a personal insult which is not allowed in this forum. Would be nice if you could tell me where we lied.

If you havent figured out how to steal ressources..... not my problem.

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Shanks
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Shanks » 10 Feb 2019, 20:56

I wanted to make someone angry, nothing more hahahhahahahhahhaa

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Feb 2019, 22:12

I wanna bump this topic a bit.

I have got more time again now to play.... and the first two games with random people (didnt know any of them) was a 3 vs 3 vs two luftwaffe players and SE.


The opening was some kind of "draw" but then we got fucked up. We kept blind all day long and they used several vampires.... they detected all our recons... they went straight for them.... and dropped sd2 on hidden snipers.


All we could saw were reg 5 squads comming out of the fog of war, smashing a target (hidden rangers, recons, hidden 57 mm AT etc) in quick attacks and retreat. It was like fightng gohsts.... This map hack for 220 mp really starts getting annoying and gets abused among all new players.

It needs to cost something in terms of MP and should also require a CP unlock... just this nasty combo of vampire, luft inf and sd2 everywhere for just like 3 CP is ridicolous.

The New BK Champion
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Re: Vampyre

Postby The New BK Champion » 14 Feb 2019, 01:53

Oh yeah, then I will tell you how US player can kill PE with 4 units: 2 snipers + 2 rifles with he grenades. How to counter it can you tell me? I think this is bigger balance problem than vampire right now.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Feb 2019, 12:22

The rifle grenade requires t2 so its not that its an "insta" counter. Against two PE it remains dangerous not to go for AT gun but against "normal" players i do not get AT gun bc its unlikely that they attempts a vehicle rush. Most PE ( in this case) went inf spam, krads and own snipers with a mix of gren squads, assault pios, krads, HMG´s and snipers (mixed along the players, i didnt check who got what exactly).

That means that rifle grenade is out of question anyway bc you dont have ammo that early to upgrade both and why should you get them? The normal one is quite bad in hitting infantry that is not inside a house and HEAT has no use when there is no vehicle anyway.

The next step usually was to lock down with AT guns, get logistic company and then there is Mortar HT, a locked down scout car here, mortar HT, Vampire and 50 mm AT.

Sure, High valley conflict is quite cramped but thats the case with many 3 vs 3 maps. I feel like going vs 2-3 PE that keep defensive and cautios can be quite hard, esspecially when you are the only one trying to push early game (while teammets as well just get HMG´s, trenches and stuff). So in the regular player base the game gets lost at this point already. No pressure vs defensive PE in early game= almost surley lost game.

Playing a 3 vs 3 on a 4 vs 4 map works out better bc i could use vehicles and shermans from mid-late game much easier but on regular 3 vs 3 maps like Wolfheze and High valley conflict you can almost say GG once the opponent completed Vampire/Hetzer/SD2 and trench defense. They just get arty, scale up the guns (from hetzer to nashorn in these instances) and the regular US player has no real plan what else to do than "callioping".


It probably would have been different if all players (both sides) would have been known players but that wasnt the case here. And i wish you good luck pusing alone 2-3 PE players on a cramped Map. Two snipers are a big investment and require a long time to build which means the time you need to cap the area arround the base takes a bit longer.




I cant see how two Inf squads (over 500 MP) with rifle nades (over 60 ammo alone for upgrade and pay per use) is a bigger issue than a free 220 MP map hack (which can just like that steal ressources if it happens to stay in enemie sector) or how it is "more unfair".

Terror and RAF pay already CP just to hear what the enemie recruits/builds. TH pays CP just to see vehicles on the mini map with infantry but Luft can detect everything in a large area for a cost lower than that of a jeep/schwimmwagen.

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Viper
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Viper » 14 Feb 2019, 20:30

The New BK Champion wrote:Oh yeah, then I will tell you how US player can kill PE with 4 units: 2 snipers + 2 rifles with he grenades. How to counter it can you tell me? I think this is bigger balance problem than vampire right now.

much agreed.
american riflemen anti tank grenade is very broken now.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Feb 2019, 22:17

Viper wrote:
The New BK Champion wrote:Oh yeah, then I will tell you how US player can kill PE with 4 units: 2 snipers + 2 rifles with he grenades. How to counter it can you tell me? I think this is bigger balance problem than vampire right now.

much agreed.
american riflemen anti tank grenade is very broken now.



The way it works is a bit weird for a rifle grenade but at least it now hits something and is worht the cost. Before you payed lots of ammo for 90% fail shots. The WH Rifle AT squad btw is nothing but a grenade launcher mounted on a former anti tank rifle but fires the grenade like a straigh flying bullet. So it wouldnt make sense to me to argue that US Rifle Grenade should not work the way it does now (flying straight on target like a bullet) while the WH one is allowed to.

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Viper
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Viper » 14 Feb 2019, 22:55

the purpose of the wehrmacht anti tank squad is different from the riflemen. you cant compare them. (from gameplay point of view)
you can compare them with the british anti tank rifle boys.

the current problems with the anti tank riflemen grenade....are:
1.projectile speed way too fast. (even the wehrmacht and british anti tank rifles dont fire with this speed)
2.100% accuracy with 60 range :!: so any vehicle in range is immediately hit.....click and hit. (in less than a second, even at max range)

so the projectile speed need to be back to normal.
and accuracy should be lower. or the range should be lower.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Vampyre

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Feb 2019, 23:11

Viper wrote:the purpose of the wehrmacht anti tank squad is different from the riflemen. you cant compare them. (from gameplay point of view)
you can compare them with the british anti tank rifle boys.


perhaps, but generally i feel scared using vehicles currently or at least whenever i try to be a bit aggressive. CW boys can make a short job of any vehicle, WH does the same currently (even better bc they dont have this "hit 1% HP car and dont kill it" issue as brits). Now US got their way to worsen the situation for vehicles in general. I feel like i can only play out vehicles mobility when playing vs PE currently bc WH, CW and US are quite save against "aggressive vehicles", flanking attempts and such. Most reconassaince vehicles got degraded into "main line heavy MG platforms" in BK.

the current problems with the anti tank riflemen grenade....are:
1.projectile speed way too fast. (even the wehrmacht and british anti tank rifles dont fire with this speed)
2.100% accuracy with 60 range :!: so any vehicle in range is immediately hit.....click and hit. (in less than a second, even at max range)


1. I think markr explained that speed might not be the biggest factor. Slowing it down too much would make them again usless against vehicles.


so the projectile speed need to be back to normal.
and accuracy should be lower. or the range should be lower.


And so we would pay too much for too little again. Its not that US already pays a fucking high price for stickies which often do nothing at all. Just yesterday i had to put three of them on a nashorn to stop it from escaping and it was far away from being dead.


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