3v3 4v4 Allies vs German stuff

[The New BK Champion]

If you dont know how to effiently use the tiger stop saying that it is useless or anything else. A vet tiger can be a game winner you just probably don't know how to exploit it!
I even heard a call-in option for a tiger in bk doc.... gosh!

I might not know how to use tigers, true. I am not a top bk doc player to be honest.

it's obvious that bk champion was just kidding, two tigers for that amount of MP would destroy your butt, the tiger is fine like this

I was not joking. I feel like most of community has the same thoughts as me: tiger tank doesn't serve it's purpose right now - it's very ineffective considering how much time, res and cp u have to invest in it. Of course it can do "something" like countering HE sherman, but so can panzer IV.

So what is the purpose of tiger right now? It's neither "rushing" because it takes much more time and res to field it than panzer and still both die almost the same to 17p or other ambushed at. Neither AT purpose, because tiger can kill all tanks that panzer IV and stug can - shermans mostly but if you face armor doc you are fucked anyway. Neither anti-inf cuz again panzer IV is as good with it's top mg + u have ostwind.

So if you manage to "win the game" with tiger, you must be playing vs some really inexperienced player, and you could have won easily with just panzers much sooner

[Shanks]

5 cp for the tiger, then you only need 1800 MP for two tigers, an even better option than to bring a single AS tiger that would obviously cost you more cp and 1550 MP ..... what would have with doc armor to counteract such monstrousness?

[The New BK Champion]

You say "only" 1800 mp, but the cost of a tiger in panzer factory is 975mp each. So it's only 150mp cheaper overall. I don't see a problem here. I'd even make it cheaper than 1800 tbh, but 1800 is ok too I guess.

What does armor doc have to counter it? Well let's see the options:
1. For same ammount of mp and 0 cp you can get 5 m10..
2. For same ammount of mp and 1 cp you can get 4 hellcats
3. For same ammount of mp and 4 cp you can get 3 jacksons (that 1 shot tiger easily from ambush)
4. For same ammount of mp and 5 cp (same cp as tiger) you get 2 pershings that are a direct counter to tigers.

Sounds very fair to me.

On the side note I think that my idea could fit with the other call in ability of "battle group". Currently you can get it very late and it's no much use in late game to get a single tank and some inf, even if they have upgrades.

What if we make "call in battle group" researchable right before the new tiger battle group. So in larger perspective you can either go for battle groups that cost mp but they have long cooldown, or you can go for classic buidable way, but this way you also need fuel and you lose the element of instant punch possibility.

And later you can also amass a lof tanks for number superiority - this is literally classic blitzkrieg.

[Shanks]

you talk about 4 hellcat m10 and jackson, but everything will cost you fuel, is the big difference, you only spend 1800 MP for two tigers, and cost 0 in fuel ... I also do not know if you know that bk has askill that gives you MP in exchange for ammunition and if I'm not mistaken are 900 of MP, adding that you can call infantry more tank in the doctrine bk, practically do not need fuel, and the MP is a resource super abundande even inpvp pro, also the tiger has higher range than a hellcat or M10, you only need vision, and obviously you will not have two valuable tigers unprotected, even with flanking speed it would be difficult to destroy them in the hands of expert players, notonly that, the tiger is not as weak as they say , certainly M10 and hellcat are effective in camouflage, but their chances of destroying a tiger decreases significantly when losing it, and unmasking units is not so difficult in bk ... I never sawthe jackson destroy a tiger with 1 shot, too ... what impact would have this type of change on inf doc or air doc?those doctrines do not have the possibility of making hellcat spam, and you can not always depend on airplanes or artillery, and the long tomp is obsolete right now ... remember that the HE of a tiger is not equal to a water pistol



Note:I do not say that the idea is bad, I just think that bk is not prepared right now for that kind of changes

[Viper]

guys. armor doctrine needs to have pershing ace available after the super pershing is dead.

after that. tigers need to be earlier available. specifically the ace tiger. it is basically a veteran tiger tank call.in for 1500mp and it is already similar to the idea bk champion suggested. but the problem is tiger ace need 9 cp. as much as super pershing. so the tiger ace need less command points. 6 or 7 cp like 76 jumbo.

[King of Kings]

I believe that you guys lost the whole point when you started comparing bk doc with armor doc to have as a point of reworking the whole concept of tiger tank.
These doctrines serve different purposes and the whole concept behind their creation is distinct.
Furthermore, you also compared these two doctrines in 1v1 situations which is also misleading mainly because if we started comparing doctrines by 1v1's then we would have to nerf the whole tank hunter doctrine for example which is a direct counter to armor but that's just not the point.

[Viper]

no matter if tigers will stay in blitzkrieg doctrine or migrate to another. they still need less command points.

[Warhawks97]

BKNC idea about tiger group is one of the most interesting I ever heard in a long time. The idea is great. A new group would only be available to call in when both tigers got destroyed to prevent stockpiling.

Problem is that we get two mp only call ins.... no fuel or ammo required whille ammo can get converted into mp. Too easy spam abuse here.

What about having tigers unlocked with in total 3 cp and producable. H and E variants as rewards to each other.

After that comes the KT and finally a unlock that enables you to call in 2 or even 3 tigers as battlegroup. One of which is an ace with all abilities available at default and boosting nearby tanks (vision range etc). In return this ability can either be called just once as a "last resort" or the next call in does not contain an ace anymore.

Pershing ace of course wouldn't exist anymore. I find the pershing ace totally stupid bc I never heard of such an ace and it also turns the idea of tiger ace's ad absurdum.
If any tank aces should exist, it should be tiger aces and available only in one doc in order to keep this ace status really unique.

I also don't want to drop the idea of an iunlock that provides tigers only with vet crews. Like a simple vet upgrade as we have it for German td and armor doc.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Quick question, does anyone want their survey results to be public?

Personally i don't mind, and now I'm going to quickly throw my ideas here.

So first of all,

i think terror doctrine tech tree should be "tigers" doctrine. and blitzkrieg "panthers" doctrine.

I disagree that Terror doctrine would be the "Tigers" doctrine or that Blitz doctrine would be the "Panthers" doctrine.

As i would rather the opposite.
Tigers have similar design to Panzer4 tanks, both are non-sloped.

While the Panthers have similar design to the King Tiger, both being sloped.

Thus, it would make more sense if Blitz doctrine would lose Panthers but keep Tigers for sure.

So, the Blitz doctrine would be about Pz4, Tigers and Tiger Ace.

Terror would be about Stug4, Panthers and King Tiger.

And i agree Tigers should be earlier available generally, without reducing their price of course. They are meant to be expensive after all. This could be done by separating the Pz4 unlock from Tigers tech tree, and also separating the Stug4 unlock from the Panthers and King Tiger tech tree.

I also agree with Hawks that Tiger.H could be reward to Tiger.E and that Panther.A could be reward to Panther.G since they are all similar.

================

Secondly,

i prefer stug4 to be unlocked with pz4 in blitzkrieg doctrine. and stug3 will be standard in terror.

Eventually, i also disagree that Stug4 would be limited to Blitz doctrine.

I would rather Stug4 to be limited for Terror doc as unlock, being able to camo without veterancy.. also with HE rounds disabled while in camo.
And yes, it is possible to disable HE rounds as long as camo is activated.

Stug3 would be standard in Blitz doctrine. However, the Blitz doc could still have access to some Stug4 tanks via the off-map call-in battle-group support.. which could randomly spawn some late version Stug4 tanks.. depending on the player's luck.

=================

Thirdly, US Armor doc has to be improved accordingly...



This means that 76 Jumbo will require 6 CP instead of 7 CP, and mass production will be right below fast production; also both leading to AP rounds unlock for Shermans.. and vehicles capture unlock is now together with field repair and war machine unlock(s) and the goal behind re-organizing all of them like that, is obviously making all these abilities much earlier available! And the total is still 30 CP of course.

You can always go back and have a look at the current Armor doctrine in order to observe the differences more clearly by comparing it with this rework.

That's in addition to how the Pershing Ace should no longer be reward to Super Pershing but both of them available for the player, in case the Super Pershing is lost.. he can bring the ACE Pershing.

- Stupa should be in Blitz doc as reward to Stuh.

- SturmTiger should be reward of Grille in Def doc.

- Terror in return, should have walking Stuka half-tracks available only after 3 CP instead of 5 CP currently.

- SAS should cost only 4 CP instead of 6 CP now, and only 530 MP instead of 650 MP now, with 7x BAR and suppression ability, in addition to the Zookas for sure...

- 82nd AB should have passive camo when in cover.

- Churchill Mk.Vii should be available to deploy without flamethrower. 76 jumbo Shermans should be possible to deploy too.

- Comets should require less CP.

- Luft should lose Panther.D obviously. Which will be moved to Terror doctrine, in case it is decided to be the "Panthers" doctrine of Axis.

- RAF should lose Firefly, in return it should have 75mm howitzers unlock.. similar to US AB doc.
And the Luft doc would have LeiG.18 unlock which will replace Panther unlock, available to deploy from the 1st building.

- RA should lose 17pdr emplacements. SE should lose Nashorn.

- RE doctrine should also have captured Panther.D call-in for 1000 MP, could be reward to Croc.

All those are ideas in my head.. for a very long time. Each idea is connected with the others in some way, there is no contradiction whatsoever.

That said, it's a good bye for now...

[Mr. FeministDonut]

This Armor rework you show makes easier play for US, since Mass Production is not worth it at the early stages, since everyone is rushing Calliopes or Jumbos and only in late game after all Supply upgrades, mass production and sherman spam could be worth it. Faster Calliope means more breakthrough - it is already most powerful allied breakthrough artillery and now from the picture - it comes earlier. Too easy mehhh

[Shanks]

@Mr.FeministDonut..yes, and the Stupa for bk it would be insane and brutal

[kwok]

Don’t leave too early tiger. If stupa moves to bk, what would differentiate the stupa and stuh42? They’d serve nearly the same role but stupa is bigger/slower. Should they be reward if each other?

[Viper]

from the screenshot he posted for armor doctrine. i think he is trying to make armor so strong because tigers and panthers will available earlier. tiger ace and king tiger too.

from what i can see royal engineers will be super strong too with churchill mk7 and captured panther. and earlier comet.

and i think stupa is more crazy in defensive with artillery support.

but....sas with 7 bar will be very op.
they will immediately suppress anything and everything.
more like "elite mobile mg" squad. i think they will suppress even mg42 teams.

@kwok
he said stupa should be reward for stuh in blitzkrieg doctrine. yeah.

i think warhawks was the first guy to suggest this one about stupa. since long time ago.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Don’t leave too early tiger. If stupa moves to bk, what would differentiate the stupa and stuh42? They’d serve nearly the same role but stupa is bigger/slower. Should they be reward if each other?

Yes, reward for each other.

but....sas with 7 bar will be very op.
they will immediately suppress anything and everything.
more like "elite mobile mg" squad. i think they will suppress even mg42 teams.

They will be fine as long as Luft inf are untouched.

[Viper]

what about vs grenadiers?
do you know? i think 7 bren will be less op than 7 bar
because 7 bar means they will suppress better than shermans. even without ability.
grenadiers with lmg42 cant suppress at all.

[Shanks]

If stupa moves to bk, what would differentiate the stupa and stuh42?

the stupa is 10 times better than a stug 42, stupa + maultier and tiger would be brutal, but I do not really object hahaha

[Warhawks97]

I disagree that Terror doctrine would be the "Tigers" doctrine or that Blitz doctrine would be the "Panthers" doctrine.

As i would rather the opposite.
Tigers have similar design to Panzer4 tanks, both are non-sloped.

While the Panthers have similar design to the King Tiger, both being sloped.

Thus, it would make more sense if Blitz doctrine would lose Panthers but keep Tigers for sure.

So, the Blitz doctrine would be about Pz4, Tigers and Tiger Ace.

Terror would be about Stug4, Panthers and King Tiger.

And i agree Tigers should be earlier available generally, without reducing their price of course. They are meant to be expensive after all. This could be done by separating the Pz4 unlock from Tigers tech tree, and also separating the Stug4 unlock from the Panthers and King Tiger tech tree.

I also agree with Hawks that Tiger.H could be reward to Tiger.E and that Panther.A could be reward to Panther.G since they are all similar.

Interesting, its like you are a tank racist. slopped vs non slopped.

The point is that Tank IV is the basic of all following tank types. The Tiger is a Tank IV with much bigger gun and armor but its design is similiar. The Panther supposed to replace tank IV´s, however it never did so and both got build at the same time till the end of war.

So the tank IV unlock needs to be the basis for tiger and panther unlock but panther and tiger shouldnt stick in a line because they served different roles. And just as the Panther was the successor of tank IV´s, so was the KT the successor of Tiger, even though its design looked more similiar to a Panther.

The Panther can be in various docs as late game medium tank for axis, the tiger and KT need their own doc (which still can posses panthers at the same time).

================


=================

Thirdly, US Armor doc has to be improved accordingly...

This means that 76 Jumbo will require 6 CP instead of 7 CP, and mass production will be right below fast production; also both leading to AP rounds unlock for Shermans.. and vehicles capture unlock is now together with field repair and war machine unlock(s) and the goal behind re-organizing all of them like that, is obviously making all these abilities much earlier available! And the total is still 30 CP of course.

You can always go back and have a look at the current Armor doctrine in order to observe the differences more clearly by comparing it with this rework.

That's in addition to how the Pershing Ace should no longer be reward to Super Pershing but both of them available for the player, in case the Super Pershing is lost.. he can bring the ACE Pershing.

I thought about armor as well and had various ideas. Cant recall all of them.
But:

1. I would like to see armor doc without pershing ace and SP. They just dont fit into its design philosophy which is mobility, various capable vehicles and many good medium multirole tanks with support of big guns fitted on Pershings and jacksons.

2. I think both, M10 and M18 can be non CP unlock for armor. I wouldnt even mind having M18 moved away from armor and placed in inf and AB doc since they rely more on mobility. The upper line would be all about firepower improvment, starting with 76 sherman, then jackosn and then pershing (Pershing would in total require 7 CP). The current M18 slot gets taken by 76 unlock, towards right top corner comes jacks and pershing. On the top left comes sherman mass production linked to sherman 76, down to the current jacks unlock some sort of "pattons armor platoon support" consisting of a 75 sherman and easy eight or 76 sherman.
On the left down below the mass prod. unlock comes calli and jumbo unlock. The 75 is a reward for the 76 or the other way arround. Both producable but 76 remains its 1 unit limit, the 75 can be fielded twice.

In the center of the doctrine could be changes as well. In the middle (where current field repair is) comes the faster vehicle production and from there a player can go in three directions: above is field repair, below war machinery, to its left the ammo depot.
Bottom left is the vehicle cap point.
Finally one free slot remains for smart ideas.

- Stupa should be in Blitz doc as reward to Stuh.

true, stupa was stuhs successor and it also fits this role. Its the only reward unit which does not only switch between two types of the same role, but between two entirely different units.

- SturmTiger should be reward of Grille in Def doc.

to be honest i feel that this sturmtiger fits in this terror style of hard beating shit.

- SAS should cost only 4 CP instead of 6 CP now, and only 530 MP instead of 650 MP now, with 7x BAR and suppression ability, in addition to the Zookas for sure...

what?

- Churchill Mk.Vii should be available to deploy without flamethrower.

yes, bc just as panthers were main stay axis tank in 44, churchill MK VII replaced all MK VI (at least frontline combat units, not all support units)

- Luft should lose Panther.D obviously. Which will be moved to Terror doctrine, in case it is decided to be the "Panthers" doctrine of Axis.

Luft losing panther is ok, but as said we dont need a "Panther doc".

- RA should lose 17pdr emplacements. SE should lose Nashorn.

nope.... Too important for their respective docs.... Nashorn fits in SE even better as in TH...

- RE doctrine should also have captured Panther.D call-in for 1000 MP, could be reward to Croc.

too much work (all the target tables....tank guns of a faction are totally mess against tanks of own faction simply bc they never intended to shoot at each other in coh.... tons of target tables reworks of all axis weapons vs panther and panther gun vs all axis target types.... and for what?

[Krieger Blitzer]

what about vs grenadiers?
do you know? i think 7 bren will be less op than 7 bar
because 7 bar means they will suppress better than shermans. even without ability.
grenadiers with lmg42 cant suppress at all.

Well, the Bren LMG also can't shoot while moving, but BARs can.
Though, the Bren LMGs would kill at much faster rate. BARs will just suppress...

CW has borrowed many US weapons such as Thompsons and Shermans, so I was thinking BARs could be something very unique.

Bren LMG is already obtainable on Rifle Section squads and LeeEnfield Commandos.. and Thompsons are already used by Marine and Sten Commandos, so the idea of BARs for SAS was the most creative one i could think of, to be honest.

the stupa is 10 times better than a stug 42, stupa + maultier and tiger would be brutal, but I do not really object hahaha

It would be super hard for the player to have enough resources for the Stupa and Tiger tank at the same time.. remember he can only bring 1 Stupa or 2 cheaper Stuh, and it's his choice.

I thought about armor as well and had various ideas.

Ya, actually Armor can be changed in various good ways.. though, if Armor doc would keep the current approach with Pershing Ace and Super Pershing, then I believe it should look the way that I have described.

true, stupa was stuhs successor and it also fits this role. Its the only reward unit which does not only switch between two types of the same role, but between two entirely different units.

You meet my expectations though, glad to see that you agree with such points.. and also the other about Mk.Vii Churchills.

Lastly i would like to react to few other things you mentioned:

- 17pdr emplacement is too important for RA doc, and Nashorn as well for SE doc.. right.
However, both docs would still keep Firefly, Hetzer, and Achilles. Remember that SE has a Firefly too! So, i think they will be just fine.

- i'm well aware that captured Panther would need a lot of work.. but i believe captured Firefly also needed as much??? If they can do it with Firefly... I would be curious why not with the Panther.

Not to mention that if they are really willing to "rework" docs, then "a lot of work" is only to be expected.

Generally, i'm also very interested to see how the devs could rework Axis docs. I really wonder, would they go for earlier Tigers and removal of Panther.D from Luft? Let's see if they can do it better or worse than the suggestions across the board.

it has been a pleasure to discuss about that.

[Shanks]

It would be super hard for the player to have enough resources for the Stupa and Tiger tank at the same time.. remember he can only bring 1 Stupa or 2 cheaper Stuh, and it's his choice..

It's not hard, believe me, you know I'm a def doc fan, and I know that so many resources you can have in pvp, and if I can have L / 70 (more than one) or elephant next to the stupa, it would not be something of another dimension have a tiger next to the stupa, taking into account that you save fuel, ammunition and MP in bk doc, thanks to the call of reinforcements with fully equipped tanks and fully equipped infantry to the eceptions of some that are partially equipped, that at the same time enable the stupa, you can even ask for MP in exchange for ammunition, which should have much enough thanks to the stupa, which fulfills two functions (vs inf and emplacement) ,since the maultier would not be indispensable, just something extra

[Krieger Blitzer]

it's not impossible to achieve that.. but definitely hard, or possible.. but not eaay. You also need to keep in mind that if Stupa is added to Blitz doc, it would be on a different tech tree from the Tiger tank, as it would be unlocked with Stuh...

1 Stupa will not be more dangerious than 2 Stuh.. and at the same time, it will not be less dangerious either.

it's exactly like if you are ordering a big chicken sandwich (Stupa) or 2 small chicken sandwiches (Stuh) if you get what i mean.. they all are going to taste the same, after all.

Stupa in Def doc doesn't make sense though, because it's an offensive unit.. not defensive anyhow.

If anything i would like to say at last, i honestly don't know how many years it's going to take until Bk Mod would finally add "hold fire" ability for tanks with big reload time like the Stupa and other heavy tanks... We can only hope for the best! :p

[Shanks]

well, being honest, almost nobody uses def doc in pvp, except me... and certainly def doc should not lack an offensive unit, in fact no one doctrine should lack this type of units, currently def doc already has enough nerf due to the ease that the allies have of destroying an emplacement, and the stupa is definitely superior to even two stug 42, mainly because it is more armored .... in any case the stug 42 must be in the defensive doctrine and the maultier should pass to terror doc, the nebel of terror will pass to bk doc (the one that take it on foot), and finally the sturm tiger as a reward for def doc, so bk doc it would not be OP maybe ..... to what I I mean, if the stupa enters bk doc, this doctrine must renounce the maultier for being very lethal next to the stupa and stug 42 because no one else would ever use it and it would be forgotten, but in return it will have 2 nebel 150 mm (but obviously this unit is more vulnerable to the artillery, but this is compensated a with the stupa and the special infantry of bk doc that would facilitate you to advance)

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Yeah yeah, you wasn't using it before I crushed you with Stupa rush.
Tiger, main problem of Stuh is being not cost effective at all. High scatter meaning you miss most of your shots. Tiger tanks are usualy good to fight against Shermans when you lost on trying to remain them under control with your basic Pz4 (which is better than Sherman 76mm). So imagine if a US player doesn't have any Armor or RE players in his team, it would be stupid battlegroup call-in, fuel exchange and Stupa rush (which would be even more succesful than Tiger, but nobody knows that, just because Stupa is located in a half-useless doctrine). Stupa already can almost one shot mediums at very high distances (more than 50% for heavies like persh), having too good armor. So at the end it will be just another sniper multi-role Tiger tank, combined with BK spam of mediums. This is just a possible OP meta that could be alive with this changes.
Pls say no to Stupa, it's just better to optimise def, so it won't be too specialized doctrine

[Viper]

was thinking about this......and i make my opinion:

defense doctrine will not feel any lack. because grille.

i think stupa will not always be better than two stuh42 because if you have 2 stuh firing. you will give less time for enemy to repair fortifications. enemy will have bigger time to repair his fortification under fire if you attack with only one stupa.

blitzkrieg doctrine need better punch. tigers should arrive earlier (6 or 7 cp max for tiger ace because 9 cp is too much) and so i think stupa will be good addition.

[Shanks]

if you say that the stupa is not better than two stug 42 ........ why do you want it in bk doc?

In addition, the grille requires ammunition for shot , the Stupa does not

[Warhawks97]

Yeah yeah, you wasn't using it before I crushed you with Stupa rush.
Tiger, main problem of Stuh is being not cost effective at all. High scatter meaning you miss most of your shots. Tiger tanks are usualy good to fight against Shermans when you lost on trying to remain them under control with your basic Pz4 (which is better than Sherman 76mm). So imagine if a US player doesn't have any Armor or RE players in his team, it would be stupid battlegroup call-in, fuel exchange and Stupa rush (which would be even more succesful than Tiger, but nobody knows that, just because Stupa is located in a half-useless doctrine). Stupa already can almost one shot mediums at very high distances (more than 50% for heavies like persh), having too good armor. So at the end it will be just another sniper multi-role Tiger tank, combined with BK spam of mediums. This is just a possible OP meta that could be alive with this changes.
Pls say no to Stupa, it's just better to optimise def, so it won't be too specialized doctrine

good point.

brutal meta... basically once you got panzer IV J production rolling and a stupa its hard to destroy that combo before a second and thrid J roles out.... i would even say it becomes technically impossible to kill this "meat shields" faster as it replaces itself.

if you say that the stupa is not better than two stug 42 ........ why do you want it in bk doc?

In addition, the grille requires ammunition for shot , the Stupa does not

stupa is the bigger pain, alone its damage per shot, insta kills and massive armor (better than tiger or am i wrong)?



Lets be honest, grille is broken and stupa to some extend as well.


Grille is technically a "infanterie Geschütz" (infantry gun) just like the lig 75 mm (leichtes infanterie geschütz: light infantry gun).

However it acts like a howitzer just with sniper accuracy.


And stupa... well... afterall a stuby gun with crazy trajectory that snipes everything from huge range.... it wouldnt hit any damn vehicle or tank as long as it moves.

I know its designed to blow up emplacments and thus it does require some range.... but that long range sniping everything aspect is still stupid as fuck.