Give All Stug IVs camo without vet requirements

[Walderschmidt]

Achilles has camo right away.

M10 has camo right away.

Hellcat has camo right away.

Hetzer/Jagdpanzer/Jagdpanther have camo right away.

Why not stugs?

Wald

[MEFISTO]

I think the same!!100%

[King of Kings]

With that philosophy why don't we give iv's or e8 camo or every unit we like camo?

[Viper]

stug4 should be tank hunter. and stug3 normal tank. so i agree stug4 should have camo right away. even if it should require command points as result.

[kwok]

By instant camo you mean like instant available, not click and .25 seconds later it's camo'd right?

[MEFISTO]

With that philosophy why don't we give iv's or e8 camo or every unit we like camo?

What philosophy are you talking about? StugIV already has camouflage but it needs to get veteran to use it, all others TH in the game don't need to be veteran to use camouflage( m10 hellcat achilles jagpanzers hetzel.....)

[Viper]

By instant camo you mean like instant available, not click and .25 seconds later it's camo'd right?

stug4 needs veterancy to camo. it should not require veterancy. thats what we mean. even if it should require some command points from now on.....

[Warhawks97]

I would be fine with it, but then pls, M10 shouldnt requre CP.

They need vet bc its a 0 cp unit.... only armor doc has non cp M10.

So technically you would get not just a fully fledged TD but also a "Inf-destroyer" with HE shot and that for 0 CP in doctrines supposed to be offensive not defensive.

[Walderschmidt]

By instant camo you mean like instant available, not click and .25 seconds later it's camo'd right?

Yes, bad headline.

Fixing now.

With that philosophy why don't we give iv's or e8 camo or every unit we like camo?

Put your comments in camo, then.

Wald

[Walderschmidt]

I would be fine with it, but then pls, M10 shouldnt requre CP.

They need vet bc its a 0 cp unit.... only armor doc has non cp M10.

So technically you would get not just a fully fledged TD but also a "Inf-destroyer" with HE shot and that for 0 CP in doctrines supposed to be offensive not defensive.

I 100% agree with this.

Wald

[mofetagalactica]

By instant camo you mean like instant available, not click and .25 seconds later it's camo'd right?

Reported for sarcasm and trying to make fun of someone.

[The New BK Champion]

I agree, stug should have camo with 0 vet.

[kwok]

What will make the stug4 different from the Hetzer then?

[Viper]

why should there be a difference?
but stug4 has high explosive. hetzers dont.

and i think thats why it is better to make stug4 require cp and limited to 1 doctrine only. better than to make stug4 and m10 available for all doctrines without unlock.

so the difference will be how stug4 is limited to only 1 whermacht doctrine.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Thing with axis camo is that if an axis unit gets camo, HE shells from it are usually taken away. Jagdpanther, Hetzer, JP4 L/70 should all technically have HE shells but don't because camo bonuses themselves are insanely strong and shooting HE from camo is a deadly combination to infantry. Which is part of the reason why Achilles HE shells are gimped in damage compared to the Comets ones even though they are both technically using the same gun.

Only reason Marder III has HE shells is because the cost for it wouldn't make sense otherwise (and I consider it a really bad tank to build over the triple ambush shot Hetzer which exists in all PE docs).

So if Stug 4 becomes a TD, it should be given no HE shells. Otherwise no reason why all defensive doctrine TD's shouldn't be given HE shells either. Especially the JP4 Defensive Doctrine gets as a sort of replacement for the Stug 4. Which would just become a 'worse Stug 4' since it would cost more, have no HE shells, and no top MG gunner, and would require CP unlocks to build.

Imo, I'm fine with a Stug 4 that has no HE shells and camouflage from the start. Since it would make Stug 3's anti-infantry role more clear with it having HE shells and no camo.

[Viper]

achilles and hellcat have camo + high explosive.
2 allied tank destroyers.

stug4 will be the only axis tank destroyer with camo and high explosive. so i dont see a reason why it should lose high explosive for camo. and it will not be a problem if the stug4 will require cp and becomes exclusive to terror or blitz doctrines. 1 doctrine only.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Take into account that Stug 4 can shoot high explosive shells from camouflage without being revealed for pretty much forever. Stug 4 requires 2 ambush shots to 'de-cloak.' Allied TD's require only one. I suspect the reason why Marder III only has 1 ambush shot and a poor detection radius compared to other Axis TD's is because someone realized having a TD that shoots HE shells while being invisible permanently was a really, really bad idea.

Which means Stug 4 would also then have to get the same weak ambush modifiers that other HE TD's get. Poor detection radius, only 1 shot from ambush, longer time to get into ambush/be revealed, etc.

[Viper]

ok. fair point.

but i think there is solution to this.
solution is to disable high explosive ability as long as ambush mode is enabled. i think it is possible to do from technical point of view.

[mofetagalactica]

I like the idea about removing HE shoot from stug IV and add the cammo hability without having to vet up.

[Walderschmidt]

Is there no way to disable HE shots whilst in camo?

Wald

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Christ, what are you, people. Stug 4 has a brilliant TOP MG, combining with HE and skirts upgrade, making it look like more a multi-role tank like Pz4, but with camo ability at vet1. As Hawks said, M10 requires 2CP, Sherman 76mm requires 2CP too, just to be able to have a same gun as a Stug.
I'm really dissapointed with you, Illa

[Viper]

m10 require command points. correct. and if stug4 can camo right away. it will require command points too. and the high explosive will be disabled in camo. so where is the problem?

[The New BK Champion]

Christ, what are you, people. Stug 4 has a brilliant TOP MG, combining with HE and skirts upgrade, making it look like more a multi-role tank like Pz4, but with camo ability at vet1. As Hawks said, M10 requires 2CP, Sherman 76mm requires 2CP too, just to be able to have a same gun as a Stug.
I'm really dissapointed with you, Illa

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am generaly pro-axis supporter right now, cuz allies are still ridiculously easy to play, even though it's getting more balanced step by step I think.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

m10 require command points. correct. and if stug4 can camo right away. it will require command points too. and the high explosive will be disabled in camo. so where is the problem?

Then Stug will be shit and whole Terror doc will be useless at the stage of T3, as well as medium spam will be harder to complete as Blitz. I am for nerfing the Stug capabilities, but that way it will be too harsh

[Walderschmidt]

I don't think M10s should be behind a CP cost. It was produced from 1942-1943 when better options were available. So it'd make sense to me if it was immediately available and armor company, being armor focused had the hellcat immediately available.

So, what I am suggesting is M10 no CP cost. Stug camo at vet 0. And mayeb disable HE shot when in camo mode? Or make it so the vehicle can only target tanks in camo?

Wald