50 gauge a little OP or too much maybe?? recce

[Shanks]

the recce killing light vehicles without much trouble ... should not the 20 mm pierce the recce too? since the 50 caliber is better now.I mean that the 28 mm car vs the boy rifle and now the recce will not have many chances

The 28 mm is becoming a practically obsolete unit, with this change in the 50 caliber,and you can not trust the 50 mm, which is not a mobile unit

[mofetagalactica]

At max distances the .50 dosnt deal that much damage since it miss a lot, and regarding 20mm yeah it should pen a recce since its pretty much a stuart but deal low/same damage than the .50

[The New BK Champion]

Most 20 mm guns mounted on axis vehicles are KwK 38 L/55.

The 2 cm KwK 30 used the 20 x 138B cartridge. Average penetration performance established against rolled homogenous steel armor plate laid back at 30° from the vertical.

PzGr.39 (Armour Piercing) (Can go through 23 mm of armor at 100 meters and 14 mm of armor at 500 meters)
PzGr.40 (Armour Piercing Composite Rigid) (Can go through 40 mm of armor at 100 meters and 20 mm of armor at 500 meters) [These are not used in BK I suppose]

Whereas effective armor of recce:

Conclusion - ralism-wise 20mm vehicles should not pen recce frontally, at least not on full distance. At very close range it's possible. My opinion is that current pen chances of 20mm vs recce are realistic.

But that's true that with recent 50cal buff recce was also buffed. Maybe price of 28mm car should be dropped to compensate that?

[Panzerblitz1]

We can’t of course talk realism in some situations, especially with the Recce, the Recce could be pen. From sides and rear without any problems by 20 mil and more, but the Recce main threat is the mounted 50 cal, and having a soldier firing without any protection his 50 cal is kind of dodgy when you have a 20 mil spitting shells on him.
So i do think the Recce is very fine.

[mofetagalactica]

What about dropping the accuracy of the recce a little? After the buff changes to .50 and the crazy accuracy recce always have before this seems like a little op, it shreds infantry in a blink at max distances sometimes, but yeah m42 also has those momments.

[Warhawks97]

Haven't checked it but I think all these calls 50 got standardised. Means recce cal. 50 would have got accuracy drop to 0.15 from 0.2 in return for 2 bullets more per second. Bullet damage dropped down VS inf and armor pen increased.

Means vs inf the recce should not preform better VS inf as before unlike other cal. 50 which had super poor accuracy compared to recce and thus increased from 0.1 accuracy to 0.15.

But will check it when I am back home.

[Viper]

you cant say recce really has same armor as stuart. because there is no turret.

and after the 50cal buff, recce can counter puma now. so i think recce need to be tuned down. it is for sure a bit over the top right now.

[Shanks]

We can’t of course talk realism in some situations, especially with the Recce, the Recce could be pen. From sides and rear without any problems by 20 mil and more, but the Recce main threat is the mounted 50 cal, and having a soldier firing without any protection his 50 cal is kind of dodgy when you have a 20 mil spitting shells on him.
So i do think the Recce is very fine.

I tell you something more surprising, the jeep of the airb can beat all light vehicles of PE even the two versions of 20 mm face to face (which cost between 20 and 25 fuel) only with a jeep that costs you 5 of fuel, except for those who have anti-armored guns (28 mm-75mm etc), this is very bad !!!!! .... some panzerblitz solution? ... imagine what an M8 can do now vs 28 mm and other PE units

[Panzerblitz1]

You are telling me that the AB jeep (i guess the armored jeep) can beat in a 1v1 all PE Sdkfz 20mm vehicles?

[Shanks]

You are telling me that the AB jeep (i guess the armored jeep) can beat in a 1v1 all PE Sdkfz 20mm vehicles?

Yes,at close range, you can try it

[Warhawks97]

You are telling me that the AB jeep (i guess the armored jeep) can beat in a 1v1 all PE Sdkfz 20mm vehicles?

Yes,at close range, you can try it

close range


Hmmm.... Volks with Mp40 can kill enfield commandos at close range....


I killed Pershing with Tank IV J from close range....


I once penetrated a tiger with 57 mm AT gun from close range (even panther iirc).


Yes, cal 50 has a high rof and i dont see an issue here. Jeep doesnt have a mobility advantage over 20 mm wheeled vehicles...

[Mr. FeministDonut]

You are telling me that the AB jeep (i guess the armored jeep) can beat in a 1v1 all PE Sdkfz 20mm vehicles?

Yes,at close range, you can try it

:thinking:

[Viper]

guys. try armored 50.cal airborne jeep at max range vs 222 armored car.
then try m20 armored car at max range vs 222 armored car.

result:

armored 50.cal airborne jeep wins 90% of the times.
m20 armored car losses 90% of the times.

conclusion:
yes there is something wrong.
the armored 50.cal jeep is not only harder to hit but it is also resisting 20mm cannons better than the m20 armored car.

[Warhawks97]

jeeps seem to be harder to pen.

20 mm vs armored jeep: 51% pen max range.

20 mm vs Greyhound type vehicles: 68% pen.


I might overlooked something... idk. Devs should take a look.

[MenciusMoldbug]

28mm car is a funny unit because the real counter to stuff like M8 (and even the Recce) is the 37mm halftrack because it has Tread Breaker. 'Tread Breaker' makes you think of immobilizing tanks but for vehicles on wheels it destroys their engine and since the 37mm halftrack has 65 range you can just back up a bit afterwards (as Tread Breaker has 60 range) and keep firing at the M8 while all it can do is use attack ground against your vehicle.

Tread Breaker is also funny because it has 1000% penetration and accuracy chances when used. Means stuff like churchills which should be impossible to penetrate can be detracked from the front and rendered useless. While stuff like its 100 munition destroy-a-jumbo-immediately-rocket ability will sometimes bounce on a churchill.

I've come to the conclusion that the 37mm halftrack is way better than the 28mm car. It seems to have always been the case anyways as the problem with this car is its gun has 60 range while the 37mm has 65. I would give it 65 range too so it isn't outranged by 57mm halftracks and doesn't gets its engine immediately blown up if it faces a M8 in combat.

I don't get the differentiation between this 28mm car and the 37mm halftrack. Their roles are way too overlapping, and the rocket ability for the halftrack means its more viable late game. So what's really the point of the 28mm car with its super awesome pen? It's not like you are going to use it to continuously kill shermans and cromwells.

I would differentiate their roles a bit more by removing the rocket ability from the 37mm halftrack and giving it ambush camouflage and the 28mm car can go down in price to 300 MP (from 320 MP) and a +5 range increase on its gun. That's all it really needs to stay competitive. Meanwhile the 37mm halftrack can be used from ambush to destroy enemy vehicles that are careless like the 57mm halftrack is currently being used.

I don't know if Tread Breaker needs to be changed; if you nerf its stats, then it won't be able to penetrate anything decently armored and so what's the point of calling it 'Tread Breaker.' Considering nobody really complains about it because of how fragile this halftrack is; I would just nerf the penetration stats so it can most of the time only detrack medium armor from ambush. But for heavy armor it's going to have to get some rear armor hits to do that.

[mofetagalactica]

28mm car is a funny unit because the real counter to stuff like M8 (and even the Recce) is the 37mm halftrack because it has Tread Breaker. 'Tread Breaker' makes you think of immobilizing tanks but for vehicles on wheels it destroys their engine and since the 37mm halftrack has 65 range you can just back up a bit afterwards (as Tread Breaker has 60 range) and keep firing at the M8 while all it can do is use attack ground against your vehicle.

Tread Breaker is also funny because it has 1000% penetration and accuracy chances when used. Means stuff like churchills which should be impossible to penetrate can be detracked from the front and rendered useless. While stuff like its 100 munition destroy-a-jumbo-immediately-rocket ability will sometimes bounce on a churchill.

I've come to the conclusion that the 37mm halftrack is way better than the 28mm car. It seems to have always been the case anyways as the problem with this car is its gun has 60 range while the 37mm has 65. I would give it 65 range too so it isn't outranged by 57mm halftracks and doesn't gets its engine immediately blown up if it faces a M8 in combat.

I don't get the differentiation between this 28mm car and the 37mm halftrack. Their roles are way too overlapping, and the rocket ability for the halftrack means its more viable late game. So what's really the point of the 28mm car with its super awesome pen? It's not like you are going to use it to continuously kill shermans and cromwells.

I would differentiate their roles a bit more by removing the rocket ability from the 37mm halftrack and giving it ambush camouflage and the 28mm car can go down in price to 300 MP (from 320 MP) and a +5 range increase on its gun. That's all it really needs to stay competitive. Meanwhile the 37mm halftrack can be used from ambush to destroy enemy vehicles that are careless like the 57mm halftrack is currently being used.

I don't know if Tread Breaker needs to be changed; if you nerf its stats, then it won't be able to penetrate anything decently armored and so what's the point of calling it 'Tread Breaker.' Considering nobody really complains about it because of how fragile this halftrack is; I would just nerf the penetration stats so it can most of the time only detrack medium armor from ambush. But for heavy armor it's going to have to get some rear armor hits to do that.

Im ok with this but only if we lower the rate of fire of both units, 37HE and 28mm shooting every 3-4 seconds its too unreal to watch.

[The New BK Champion]

Im ok with this but only if we lower the rate of fire of both units, 37HE and 28mm shooting every 3-4 seconds its too unreal to watch.

All small calibre guns could fire every 3-4 seconds. It's unrealistic if they do not do so.

For example pak 36 had rate of fire of 13 rpm. 2 punder of CW had 22 rpm. 28mm gun had 30 rpm. The fire rate is perfectly ok.

[Warhawks97]

28mm car is a funny unit because the real counter to stuff like M8 (and even the Recce) is the 37mm halftrack because it has Tread Breaker. 'Tread Breaker' makes you think of immobilizing tanks but for vehicles on wheels it destroys their engine and since the 37mm halftrack has 65 range you can just back up a bit afterwards (as Tread Breaker has 60 range) and keep firing at the M8 while all it can do is use attack ground against your vehicle.

Tread Breaker is also funny because it has 1000% penetration and accuracy chances when used. Means stuff like churchills which should be impossible to penetrate can be detracked from the front and rendered useless. While stuff like its 100 munition destroy-a-jumbo-immediately-rocket ability will sometimes bounce on a churchill.

I've come to the conclusion that the 37mm halftrack is way better than the 28mm car. It seems to have always been the case anyways as the problem with this car is its gun has 60 range while the 37mm has 65. I would give it 65 range too so it isn't outranged by 57mm halftracks and doesn't gets its engine immediately blown up if it faces a M8 in combat.

I don't get the differentiation between this 28mm car and the 37mm halftrack. Their roles are way too overlapping, and the rocket ability for the halftrack means its more viable late game. So what's really the point of the 28mm car with its super awesome pen? It's not like you are going to use it to continuously kill shermans and cromwells.

I would differentiate their roles a bit more by removing the rocket ability from the 37mm halftrack and giving it ambush camouflage and the 28mm car can go down in price to 300 MP (from 320 MP) and a +5 range increase on its gun. That's all it really needs to stay competitive. Meanwhile the 37mm halftrack can be used from ambush to destroy enemy vehicles that are careless like the 57mm halftrack is currently being used.

I don't know if Tread Breaker needs to be changed; if you nerf its stats, then it won't be able to penetrate anything decently armored and so what's the point of calling it 'Tread Breaker.' Considering nobody really complains about it because of how fragile this halftrack is; I would just nerf the penetration stats so it can most of the time only detrack medium armor from ambush. But for heavy armor it's going to have to get some rear armor hits to do that.

crap, really? i thought we got rid of all that tread braker nonsense aka magical harry potter immobilizing spell.


We reomved it from Boys AT (for the nonsense you mentioned as it could destroy engines of tigers) and from AT squads.... Tread breaker abilities are crap and i hate them (idk how often i explained why). I hate this "i payed for so i have a gurantee this or this happens".

Didnt know this shit still exists here.


What i would do with 37 mm HT:

60 range
ambush ability giving it 65 range.
perhaps HE ammo like BK one. But pls fix the 37 mm axis HE... they whipe out entire squads far too often or killing 5 of 6 men. Its their accuracy/low scatter.... idk....They dont feel realistic at all and often as good as 75 mm sherman HE or even better.


For the 28 mm.... not 65 range at default. I know there are special AT guns and weapons doing so but generally i dont like all these mobilie super range units. This unit would be able to kite even shermans to death as it could fire, run, fire, run.... It would end up in too many abuses.

Just drop its cost and its done.

[mofetagalactica]

Im ok with this but only if we lower the rate of fire of both units, 37HE and 28mm shooting every 3-4 seconds its too unreal to watch.

All small calibre guns could fire every 3-4 seconds. It's unrealistic if they do not do so.

For example pak 36 had rate of fire of 13 rpm. 2 punder of CW had 22 rpm. 28mm gun had 30 rpm. The fire rate is perfectly ok.

Its not because 28mm and 37mm (axis) shoots faster than greyhounds,stuarts,tetrach and they also have small calliber guns, so they need a drop off on their rof to normal levels, or just make the other small calliber guns shoot this fast too

[MarKr]

One is gone for a weekend and a lot of stuff goes by in the mean time...

armored 50.cal airborne jeep wins 90% of the times.
m20 armored car losses 90% of the times.

The durability of this Jeep is an overlook and will be fixed next patch.

Tread Breaker is also funny because it has 1000% penetration and accuracy chances when used. Means stuff like churchills which should be impossible to penetrate can be detracked from the front and rendered useless. While stuff like its 100 munition destroy-a-jumbo-immediately-rocket ability will sometimes bounce on a churchill.

Well, "funny", you need to look at what the ability is meant to represent, not only the stats in the files. It is meant to represent an aimed shot at tank's treads and in this case it is not like any treads in the war were made of 100mm steel plates. The high penetration is there because if it does not penetrate, the vehicle cannot be detracked (it is the way the game-engine works). The high accuracy is there, I'm guessing, because when the vehicle uses the ability, it is vulnerable to pretty much anything and if the ability is allowed to miss, the ability will be considered "useless because it is not reliable".

I would just nerf the penetration stats so it can most of the time only detrack medium armor from ambush. But for heavy armor it's going to have to get some rear armor hits to do that.

Isn't the effectiveness in imobilising the late game tanks one of the main reasons to keep this unit over the one that replaces it in the reward menu? If it gets nerfed, then there will really be no reason to go for this unit (probably because of the overlap with 28mm as you described).

crap, really? i thought we got rid of all that tread braker nonsense aka magical harry potter immobilizing spell.

Jeez, every time the Treadbreaker gets mentioned you come up with this kind of talk. You act as if it was some sci-fi thing but since you often come up with the "realism" argument, wasn't it the tactics with many inferior AT weapons to target the tracks of a superior tank to disable it?
Also why do you always come with this exagerated reaction about Treadbreaker but not complain about the "Let's pay some ammo and magically increase the range of our gun and also borrow the accuracy Chris Kyle for the next shot" ability a.k.a. "ALRS" or about the "Let's pay some ammo to quickly modify the next shot so that it has a guidance system and it magically hits the ammo storage of any enemy vehicle and blows them up every single time" ability of Jagdpanther or the "Let's ignore the range on all our artillery pieces and make them all fire for a fixed cost (no matter if it is one or 10 guns) just because this one spotter pointed his dirty finger on the map" ability a.k.a "VT".

[The New BK Champion]

I agree with markr

[Shanks]

markr, even the infantry doctrine jeep can kill the middle and long distance PE scout car faster, and we all know that the inf doc jeep does not cost fuel..What could be done about it? .... can we have Scout car of PE with no fuel cost and 50-gauge jeep in all doctrines?

[Warhawks97]

crap, really? i thought we got rid of all that tread braker nonsense aka magical harry potter immobilizing spell.

Jeez, every time the Treadbreaker gets mentioned you come up with this kind of talk. You act as if it was some sci-fi thing but since you often come up with the "realism" argument,

Oh, really, do you really think its just bc of realism?

wasn't it the tactics with many inferior AT weapons to target the tracks of a superior tank to disable it?

Yes, but that way i would make it for all of them. Why picking certain units? Every tank and anti tank unit, let it be schrecks/zooks or guns would aim for tracks when they know the enemie armor is too thick. I would really like to see the reaction when everytime a tank more than 400 MP shows up would be instantly stopped just like that without any skill required from the cheapest unit on earth. I am not saying it should be impossible but tactics should play a key role and not simply driving up, outrange the target, pay a piss and have 100% immobilization hit. Thats quite the opposite of that what i consider as "skill".

Also i would rather add some sort of "button" you can switch. Aim for tracks and engines "on" would drop the damage but increase chance to immobilize targets. switching it "off" would cause more damage as the AT unit would aim for hull/turret and thus higher chances to deliver a fatal blow.

Isn't the effectiveness in imobilising the late game tanks one of the main reasons to keep this unit over the one that replaces it in the reward menu? If it gets nerfed, then there will really be no reason to go for this unit (probably because of the overlap with 28mm as you described).

Yes, but as we can see we have tons of better ways to make these units worthy. We made it possible for rifle squads, for shermans and haltracks by boosting performance or adding new stuff (like perma HE on stubby 75 mm HT´s).

There is no need to add harry potter abilities.


Besides that, where is this unit not usefull in late game? There were games with skilled players that killed three pershings with this unit in a game using the rocket shot. I dont see how this unit needs this ability to be late game cost effective. Of all t2 vehicles only the 20 mm units are perhaps more late game worthy but compared to all other units of its class/role and tier this unit is already on the top.

Ambush ability and rocket shot would make enough difference between its reward unit and between the 28 mm.


Furthermore the ammount of complains about "expensive late game units arent worth it" exceeds those of "our t2 units suck in late game, pls buff" by far.

Also why do you always come with this exagerated reaction about Treadbreaker but not complain about the "Let's pay some ammo and magically increase the range of our gun and also borrow the accuracy Chris Kyle for the next shot" ability a.k.a. "ALRS" or about the "Let's pay some ammo to quickly modify the next shot so that it has a guidance system and it magically hits the ammo storage of any enemy vehicle and blows them up every single time" ability of Jagdpanther or the "Let's ignore the range on all our artillery pieces and make them all fire for a fixed cost (no matter if it is one or 10 guns) just because this one spotter pointed his dirty finger on the map" ability a.k.a "VT".

Bc having a 1000 MP unit in late game that requires lots of tec, ressources and veterancy in order to get an ability is something totally different than a t2 300 MP halftrack that already is quite usefull against every target due to the rocket shot.


The Gun mounted in the Jagdpanther was probably the most formidable anti gun during the entire war. Bigger guns sometimes lacked the good accuracy or took long to reload. It was kind of perfectly balanced between size, power and accuracy. That was combined with an advanced german gunsight technology. So its pretty likely that this combo in hands of a veteran crew can knock out any tank of the war with a skillfull shot over a long range.
Sure, we could also increase basic range of Tigers etc to fire accross the half map but that would break the game. So having these abilties for tigers alike is a balance between gameplay and realistic performance (which people and fans of such units like to see).

The tigers ALRS is also quite a normal shot so far. It can bounce of or simply not killing a target outright. And as mentioned its rare due to all the stuff required in tec and skill.

Having a 37 mm HT that kills the engine of a churchill/jumbo with a hit right into their front outright is is nonsense when compared to the jagpanther kill shot or ALRS of Tigers.


The VT thing: Well, having howitzers (105 and 150 mm and 25 pdr) that fire accross the map and react to VT´s would be quite nice but nobody would want it. If you want to extend range, feel free, if you want to remove VT, feel free, if you want to make howitzers shoot only by VT, feel free. I would be the last stopping you from that. At the end you made the "mixed balance" between normal short range shooting and limitless VT shooting.


Conclusion:

This halftrack is not worthy in late game without treadbreaker?
- Untrue bc it has rocket shot. There are other low tier units with worse problems.

Early tier units need to be better vs late tier units?
- When i go through forum and check the complains it seems that most would say its the other way arround.

Anti tank guns need to be able to aim for tracks etc?
- Well, make it for all or non. Better add a button that allows to switch for higher damage chance or higher immobilization hit chances instead of magic abilities.

What would make this unit different from the wheeled 28 mm vehicle and its 75 mm reward unit?
- Ambush, rocket shot.

[mofetagalactica]

"Anti tank guns need to be able to aim for tracks etc?
- Well, make it for all or non. Better add a button that allows to switch for higher damage chance or higher immobilization hit chances instead of magic abilities."

+1

[MarKr]

Oh, really, do you really think its just bc of realism?

Since you always speak about "Harry Potter immobilisation spell", it sounds like your main problem is based in realism. It is hardly my problem that you present it that way

This:

Yes, but that way i would make it for all of them. Why picking certain units?

In combination with this:

The Gun mounted in the Jagdpanther was probably the most formidable anti gun during the entire war.(...)

and that combined with your obscession with "consistency" (e.g. your post about "inconsistent 20mm guns") makes me wonder why I haven't heard any suggestions from you to implement the "click to always kill" ability also to KT, Elefant and the PaK43 in Def doc. I mean, it is the same gun so why pick certain units, right?

Anyway, to your question "why pick certain units" - it is again gameplay. First of all, the ability was abused on hand-held AT for multi-shots (you surely remember that), so it was not much of an option to keep it there. Second, if the ability is present on every AT gun in the game, it will severly limit the usage of vehicles because you will take a step in any direction and even camoed 37mm guns will immobilize your heavy tanks - at least you can see the HT coming. Third, it was kept on a single unit to keep it special. Given the fact that you didn't even know that the unit has kept the ability after it was removed from other units (which was how long? 2 years ago?) I presume it hasn't really been causing you trouble.

Then it seems that your problem with the ability gets to this:
- no skill required
- always hits
- always immobilizes
- low cost of the unit

and you seem to be fine with removing this ability while keeping the rocket ability which:
- no skill required
- always hits (at least as far as I know)
- always penetrates, often outright kills tanks
- low cost of the unit

so in the end the only real difference is that the rocket costs 100 ammo while the treadbreaker costs 50 ammo (which isn't really "piss") - however the rocket can be fired at range of 55 while the treadbreaker needs range of 42 and the target will most likely not just let it drive that close without trying to get out of range of the ability or taking a shot at the HT. The rocket cannot miss (or at least misses very rarely), pretty much always one-shots medium tanks, can do the same to Churchills and can pretty badly mess up Pershings so the rocket ability is in most cases pretty much "click to kill" ability while the treadbreaker after usage still requires more action to finish off the immobilized unit which usually takes more ammo. The cost of the unit is exactly the same when used from HT and the cost of PaK50 is even less. So it seems to me that the Rocket ability is more dangerous than the Treadbreaker.

And you would like to give to the HT camo and keep the rocket so that the the HT can wait in camo and let the target get in range which would lower the current risk the unit needs to take to use the ability - this combo seems more dangerous (especially when shots from camo have damage boost which means more chance to one-shot even Perhings from camo) than a combo of treadbreaker + camo.

Also i would rather add some sort of "button" you can switch. Aim for tracks and engines "on" would drop the damage but increase chance to immobilize targets. switching it "off" would cause more damage as the AT unit would aim for hull/turret and thus higher chances to deliver a fatal blow.

This idea doesn't sound all that bad, though.