fix your game

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King of Kings
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Joined: 04 Dec 2018, 17:36

fix your game

Postby King of Kings » 04 Dec 2018, 17:42

Devs fix the game , these imbalances simply ruin the game.
When for example an m10 without ambush can one shot a full hp panther or tiger or a full vet hp panther dies one shot by a lvl 0 pershing then it s clear you messed up big time.
When you allow in numbers and give percentages for these things to happen, you disencourage someone tryharding and playing with logic. Just go yolo and win!
''Enjoy'' the replay
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kwok
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Re: fix your game

Postby kwok » 04 Dec 2018, 18:05

It’s literally the 5% rule that has been the heart of this mod and what made it popular. If a target is penetrated there is a 5% chance it’s an instakill (post penetration chances mind you so the effective one shot probability is much less). The game isn’t about pure cost-benefit proportions. If you want that then go play a game like Starcraft where every shot is consistent and is pure “skill”.

Learning to hedge against bad RNG is the heart not just of Bk but of company of heroes.

Honestly, my reaction to this post is “git gud”.

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Warhawks97
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Re: fix your game

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Dec 2018, 18:07

M10 vs Panther skirts pen at max range:

16,2% (Less vs G Panther):

with HVAP:
24,95%

With HVAP and Ambush:
31,2%

Damage:
450-600


Damage from Ambush:
562,5-750

Panther HP: 800


Special Note:
Recently ambush pen boost dropped from x2 modifier to 1.25 modifier. Damage also dropped from 50% boost to 25% boost.

A year ago Tank commanders got reworked and provide no longer pen boosts.


You see a lot has been done to make it happen less often.




Else, if you talk about the British M10 achilles, well it carries a 17 pdr which could realistically do so. Here the special AP ability damage boost got removed dropping its max damage (no ambush) from 812,5 damage town to 650. What else do you want? Remove pen chances entirely?
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 05 Dec 2018, 01:18, edited 1 time in total.

King of Kings
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Re: fix your game

Postby King of Kings » 04 Dec 2018, 18:31

kwok wrote:It’s literally the 5% rule that has been the heart of this mod and what made it popular. If a target is penetrated there is a 5% chance it’s an instakill (post penetration chances mind you so the effective one shot probability is much less). The game isn’t about pure cost-benefit proportions. If you want that then go play a game like Starcraft where every shot is consistent and is pure “skill”.

Learning to hedge against bad RNG is the heart not just of Bk but of company of heroes.

Honestly, my reaction to this post is “git gud”.


So,someone who upvotes rng and luck factor in general says to me git gud. Someone who puts luck above skills says to me git gud. Like what is life..
You should better told me git luck ;)

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Warhawks97
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Re: fix your game

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Dec 2018, 18:46

you have to put such factors into your planning. Believe me such things happend to me as well but thats what war is like.

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Shanks
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Re: fix your game

Postby Shanks » 04 Dec 2018, 22:10

the rng factor, is one of the best components of bk mod, because you can not always trust that 1 + 1: 2 ... so, it's good

King of Kings
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Re: fix your game

Postby King of Kings » 04 Dec 2018, 23:21

Shanks wrote:the rng factor, is one of the best components of bk mod, because you can not always trust that 1 + 1: 2 ... so, it's good


Noone said that rng is completely wrong, yes 1+1 may equal to 4 in games but not equal to 150.
It s ok if an iv oneshots an e8 but not oneshot pershing for example, it s ridiculous and some times gamechanging.
With such logic why dont you make panzershrecks oneshoting shermans and above?

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MarKr
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Re: fix your game

Postby MarKr » 05 Dec 2018, 00:34

King of Kings wrote:you disencourage someone tryharding and playing with logic
King of Kings wrote:Noone said that rng is completely wrong, yes 1+1 may equal to 4 in games but not equal to 150.
It s ok if an iv oneshots an e8 but not oneshot pershing for example, it s ridiculous and some times gamechanging.
With such logic why dont you make panzershrecks oneshoting shermans and above?
Ridiculous how exactly? Because "lower tier units mustn't one-shot higher tier ones"? Why not? Does that defy logic? It is not like this never happened in the war and it doesn't happen often in the game, it is very rare thing - the gun needs to penetrate the target (and lower tier units usually have lower penetration chances against higher-tiers) and even if it is lucky enough and penetrates, it needs to be even more lucky to trigger the "one-shot" critical that kills it. If this scenario was happening often (let's say even in 30% cases) I would consider it bad, but the chance of it happening is usually around 1% (depending on shooting unit and target, I can give you calculations if you are interested in specific scenarios) so it is really rare.
I don't see what is wrong with the "Pershing vs Panther" - they are same tier, what more, Pershings are meant to be counter units to Panthers. On average they 725 damage to them on penetration, at max range the penetration chance is roughly 66% and if it deals anywhere between 650 and 760 damage there is 5% chance to oneshot the Panther this means that at max range each shot has 3.3% chance to one-shot Panthers. The situation of Panther vs Pershing is quite similar - Pershing has more basic HP but still the shot deals enough damage to get same chance to one-shot Pershing too. Veterancy does not give you chance to evade these hits, it improves accuracy and reload speed so in other words "better to chance to kill an opponent first" - since you speak of logic: this is also more logical than gaining some armor buff or "immunity to one-shots" because an experienced crew hardly means "next time some shot penetrates our armor, we will not die because now we have experience".

There is a difference between "game is broken, you should fix it" and "I don't like how the game works, you should change it the way I want" ;)
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King of Kings
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Re: fix your game

Postby King of Kings » 05 Dec 2018, 01:19

@MarKr I didn't compare panther vs Pershing situations, I compared med-light tanks against heavies.
Can I ask you something very simple.:
What if you removed the critical one shot of any medium and light tanks against heavies (except ambushed nashorns, Achilles etc). What will be wrong about this removal? Because I really don't find it logical nether funny to lose a vet Pershing which I tryharded patiently achieve this veterancy the whole game and then a kamikaze iv comes and oneshots it. Really tell me, cause I may be stupid, what's the advantage of such things to happen even in 5% or 1% or 0.0000001% chance.
And finally I ask you again why don't you apply these chances on panzershrecks for example so they may have a little chance one critical shoting a Pershing. Won't this be even better for rng lovers who like to be amazed by such situations.?

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Warhawks97
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Re: fix your game

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Dec 2018, 01:27

King of Kings wrote:@MarKr I didn't compare panther vs Pershing situations, I compared med-light tanks against heavies.
Can I ask you something very simple.:
What if you removed the critical one shot of any medium and light tanks against heavies (except ambushed nashorns, Achilles etc). What will be wrong about this removal? Because I really don't find it logical nether funny to lose a vet Pershing which I tryharded patiently achieve this veterancy the whole game and then a kamikaze iv comes and oneshots it. Really tell me, cause I may be stupid, what's the advantage of such things to happen even in 5% or 1% or 0.0000001% chance.


fun factor.. this is what many here love during games that situations can turn arround so fast. Else you would simply click the "leave game" button if you can be 10000% sure that nothing can turn your situations... and the good thing is that sometimes this can happen to both sides in a single game and totally shifting games back and forth. Its this moment when you are fighting desperatly always in mind that things can change out of a sudden.... you feel the adrenalin when you go into the battle.... like a real war situations when one moment can change everything and you as general have to adapt to the new situation....
I would miss these moments when they would get removed.

And its logic.... like you hit the MG ball of a tiger tank with a 76 gun, the shot pens and hits the ammo.
Heavy tank doesnt mean that ammo is stored in a more save position. From a realistic point if view that would mean that all tanks would have more or less the same ammount of HP.

kwok
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Re: fix your game

Postby kwok » 05 Dec 2018, 04:23

King of Kings wrote:
kwok wrote:It’s literally the 5% rule that has been the heart of this mod and what made it popular. If a target is penetrated there is a 5% chance it’s an instakill (post penetration chances mind you so the effective one shot probability is much less). The game isn’t about pure cost-benefit proportions. If you want that then go play a game like Starcraft where every shot is consistent and is pure “skill”.

Learning to hedge against bad RNG is the heart not just of Bk but of company of heroes.

Honestly, my reaction to this post is “git gud”.


So,someone who upvotes rng and luck factor in general says to me git gud. Someone who puts luck above skills says to me git gud. Like what is life..
You should better told me git luck ;)


When I said:

Learning to hedge against bad RNG is the heart not just of Bk but of company of heroes.

I thought it was implied that learning to hedge against RNG is a part of the skill, thus git gud.

As supported by:
Warhawks97 wrote:you have to put such factors into your planning. Believe me such things happend to me as well but thats what war is like.



also
King of Kings wrote:And finally I ask you again why don't you apply these chances on panzershrecks for example so they may have a little chance one critical shoting a Pershing. Won't this be even better for rng lovers who like to be amazed by such situations.?

This does exist. It's the 5% rule, it applies to everything. Technically speaking I think the chances of a panzerschreck one shotting a pershing is greater than that of an M10 one-shotting a panther because of penetration chance given no other factors.
Chance of a panzerschreck to pershing one shot is 75% x 5% = 3.75%
Chance of an m10 to panther one shot is 16% x 5% = .8%
The other factors that skew it are heat rounds, damage rolls, etc. (too much math i'm just doing a simple calc now) net i think there are more scenarios in which m10s will one shot more often than pschrecks but hopefully you get the point that one shotting exists across everything and it's typically really small unless you get certain weapons specifically designed to one-shot other units (like 88mm guns, 90mm guns, etc).
You probably suffer from what devs have diagnosed most people have: butter on toast syndrome lol.
My recommendation, spend on cheaper units, more assortment, don't rely your entire unit composition on a single unit. If you can make two stugs over one panther early on the game, make the two stugs instead. Wait until later game to roll out panthers when fuel income is more reliable or you have stugs to support your panther so if you get back luck with the panther you're not left with no AT. This is learning to hedge against RNG and how you git gud.

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MarKr
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Re: fix your game

Postby MarKr » 05 Dec 2018, 09:10

kwok wrote:This does exist. It's the 5% rule, it applies to everything.
It doesn't, the hand-held AT weapons don't have this 5% chance.

King of Kings wrote:And finally I ask you again why don't you apply these chances on panzershrecks for example so they may have a little chance one critical shoting a Pershing. Won't this be even better for rng lovers who like to be amazed by such situations.?
I wasn't in the dev team when this was set up so hard to say for sure but if I were to take a guess, I would say they don't have it because:
1) these weapons always penetrate (they are shape-charges so they cannot bounce-off) which means that the chance would be always 5%, not "5% of penetrative shots" which practically lowers the chance below 5%
2) they are easily accessible and spamable - US AT team has 2 bazzokas by default (3 in infantry doctrine after upgrade), WM AT team has 2 Schrecks by default, Piat teams also come with 2 weapons, US 82nd paratroopers have 2 bazookas for free, 101st has RL for free, SAS team has 2 bazookas for free, Fallshirms get 1 schreck for free, Grenadiers can upgrade it, Rangers can upgrade it. When I say "for free" it means "only for MP" which is the most plentyful resource in the game which only adds to the "spamable" factor and these weapons can be dropped by dead squads so they can further be picked up by squads which would otherwise not be able to get them.
3) combination of the first two points - especially the AT teams that come equipped with several AT weapons and the fact that these weapons bypass penetration factor would mean that a "volley" from such a squad would have quite a big chance to one-shot anything, even the biggest units in the game. The one-shot chance is meant to be a rare thing highly dependent on RNG, this possibility of stacking up more weapons on one squad would be bypassing the intention.

As I said - I wasn't around when this thing was put in so it is just a guess but it is based on logical deduction.
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The New BK Champion
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Re: fix your game

Postby The New BK Champion » 05 Dec 2018, 10:13

MarKr wrote: 2 bazzokas by default (3 in infantry doctrine after upgrade),

Excuse me? :?

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MarKr
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Re: fix your game

Postby MarKr » 05 Dec 2018, 10:16

Oh, yeah...third zooka upgrade was removed. Anyway, still applies what I said (penetration, availability etc.).
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