Hey Marck check this Please

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.
MEFISTO
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Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MEFISTO » 09 Oct 2018, 05:16

Hey guys just go to the minute 37:30 seg and watch the tiger vs m24 chafee (LIGHT TANK) this is not RNG this is a .......... :shock: :?
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Tiger1996
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Oct 2018, 09:11

That M24 Chaffe was belonging to A.I enemy, because MrSuv dropped the game 10 minutes earlier.. it's not rare to see A.I doing crazy things.
However, I would probably suggest MarKr to check the penetration chances of the Chaffe against Tiger1 tank.

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MarKr
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MarKr » 09 Oct 2018, 10:32

I'm at work so I cannot start a game here to watch to replay. Can you just describe what happened? Chaffee survived hits from Tiger, Tiger got destroyed by Chaffee? It is a light tank but it has the gun of M4 Sherman, so penetrative shots are possible, especially from rear.
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Tiger1996
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Oct 2018, 12:30

MarKr wrote:I'm at work so I cannot start a game here to watch to replay. Can you just describe what happened? Chaffee survived hits from Tiger, Tiger got destroyed by Chaffee? It is a light tank but it has the gun of M4 Sherman, so penetrative shots are possible, especially from rear.

A.I Chaffe penetrates Tiger tank once (from the front at close range) and eventually the Tiger1 loses about 35% of its health.
Then the 2nd hit bounces off, but TIger1 gets killed on the 3rd hit...

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 09 Oct 2018, 12:33

Tiger1996 wrote:
MarKr wrote:I'm at work so I cannot start a game here to watch to replay. Can you just describe what happened? Chaffee survived hits from Tiger, Tiger got destroyed by Chaffee? It is a light tank but it has the gun of M4 Sherman, so penetrative shots are possible, especially from rear.

A.I Chaffe penetrates Tiger tank once (from the front at close range) and eventually the Tiger1 loses about 35% of its health.
Then the 2nd hit bounces off, but TIger1 gets killed on the 3rd hit...


Frontal shots? or rear shots?
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Tiger1996
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Oct 2018, 12:37

So far, all of them were frontal hits...
1 pen, 1 bounce, then 1 more pen and Tiger1 dead.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Oct 2018, 13:01

I think its related to AI.


I have had similiar experiences with tank IV H vs stuart. While stuart survived commonly three hits (and other shots failed) the stuart in return killed the Tank IV in 2-3 shots. Not just in this version but whenever facing AI.

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MarKr
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MarKr » 09 Oct 2018, 17:50

OK, I watched it. In 5.1.5 the Chaffee has the same rear penetration chance against Tigers as Sherman (they have same guns). However the first hit was a rear hit:
20181009182249_1.jpg
1st hit - penetration (rear)
The shot visibly hit the rear half of the tank. The next 3 shots hit the front of the tank:
20181009182306_1.jpg
2nd hit - bounce off (front)
20181009182317_1.jpg
3rd hit - bounce off (front)
20181009182339_1.jpg
4th hit - bounce off (front)
Then Tiger fired, caused crit on Chaffee, leaving it alive with 1 HP and destroyed engine. Then Chaffee fired again - but look at the last picture again - the Tiger is not directly facing the Chaffee so Chafee can still hit the rear half of Tiger and score a rear hit, which also happened with Chaffee's 5th shot.

Chaffee deals to Tigers 250-450 damage, Tigers have around 1000HP, after the first shot the Tiger was left with about 3/4 of HP so the shot dealt about 300 damage, the next one was most likely near the maximum damage bracket and still probably lucky enough to trigger the 5% lucky kill shot. So I would say it WAS RNG.

Also I am not sure if this guy did not play some role in it too:
20181009181200_1.jpg
the Churchill definatelly did NOT kill the Tiger (the kill count already showed 1 tank destroyed before) but it is possible that the shell directly hit the Tiger (dealing some damage) and a split second after the Chaffee fired, hit the rear and finished the Tiger. Not sure about this one, I did not go through the replay again to check the barrage on the Churchill, it is possible but I would guess it was the first explanation (rear hit + lucky crit).

Anyway, this seems like a lucky strike on the Chaffee's side but not as something that you would see regularly happening. Chaffee will be affected by the "lowered rear penetration of 75mm guns against heavies" change which will come with 5.1.6 but even then, leaving your rear exposed like that (especially when there is not other threat in range) is simply risky.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby mofetagalactica » 09 Oct 2018, 18:54

Wow first time that i see a chaffe doing something lol if only they were a little more faster :/

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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 09 Oct 2018, 19:00

lately the 75mm guns are too strong, you can kill a hetzer with an M4 sherman without AP, you can kill panzer H without AP, you can penetrate the tiger to the maximum range frontally ,without AP with a sherman M4 .... IT IS TOO MUCH EFFECTIVE. ... the heavy tanks should lower the price, especially the tiger .. an M10 can kill 1 shot frontally at L / 48 (without AP without ambush) .. is and a joke ???? .... the M10 is the new achilles!

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MarKr
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MarKr » 09 Oct 2018, 19:11

75mm Sherman frontal penetration against Tigers has not changed, there were some minor changes e.g. against Hetzer it is now 21% (from 31%), against PIV H it is now 20% (from 25%) the only substantial increase was against StuGs but that has been lowered again in 5.1.6 beta.

76mm guns (Shermans, Hellcats, Wolverines) only got some penetration buffs against rear armor of some tanks, no damage buffs.

So it sounds really weird when you say that frontally those guns suddenly act super strong when there have been mostly penetration nerfs for them.
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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 09 Oct 2018, 19:30

if I'm not mistaken, this happens since 5.1.4, it's not suddenly, it's been for some time ... and yes, the 75 mm guns are super strong now, they should modify these damages that affect the balance

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Warhawks97
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Oct 2018, 19:38

Shanks wrote:lately the 75mm guns are too strong, you can kill a hetzer with an M4 sherman without AP, you can kill panzer H without AP, you can penetrate the tiger to the maximum range frontally ,without AP with a sherman M4 .... IT IS TOO MUCH EFFECTIVE. ... the heavy tanks should lower the price, especially the tiger .. an M10 can kill 1 shot frontally at L / 48 (without AP without ambush) .. is and a joke ???? .... the M10 is the new achilles!


I cant confrim that. Yes, shermans do pen tank IV´s from time to time, and? It had a turret armor of just 50 mm.

The other way arround i did bounce twice in a row with an e8 using HVAP against Tank IV H and J.

And it is even more frustrating to see 76 mm guns bouncing off even from silly german Stubby Tank IV´s with 50 mm armor max.


So if any tank has vastly overrated armor, then its tank IV´s. 76 guns would go through these 50 mm versions like 90% of the times hitting them and about 70% at least vs H/J.


but even the M10 frequently bounces off fromt Tank IV´s. Ambushed M10 has from max range just a 62,1% chance to pen a tank IV.
Before the ambush boost was lowered from x2 to x1.25 the pen chance of m10 vs Tank IV H was 99,3%.
So all td´s have got nerfed by this ambush pen boost reduction and now M10 does not even always provide a proper defense against these tank IV´s.

Also tank commanders once gave up to 30% pen boost, that also got removed.
That means from 4.xx onwards the armor of heavy tanks became much more potent since mediums lost their strong ambush boosts and tank commander pen boosts. Thats a good thing. All i am saying is that there is actually no need to cry anymore about weak armor and further cost drop demands. That nonsense.

Listing down the changes positiv for heavy tanks:

1. Tank commanders dont boost pen anymore which is a beneift for them since most of them have guns effective enough to blow any medium tank.
2. Ambush doesnt boost pen so massively anymore. So that claim "M10 wolverine is new achilles" is utter bullshit since it bounces even more often from tank IV´s.
3. Heavy tanks got cheaper (Tigers used to cost more)
4. Heavy tanks got more range



So why are they "suddenly" so "over-effective" when it fact penetration chances dropped down.
An M10 wolverine with x2 ambush boost, x1.3 tank commander pen boost and x.1.54 HVAP pen boost used to have a pen chance vs Tigers as high as 88%.
Compare that to currently x1.25 ambush boost and and x1.54 HVAP boost which allows max 42,62% pen vs tiger from max range. Even against Tank IV H its as high as 95,53% with ambush and HVAP.


So, i am sorry to say it that straight but that claims are just false.


Shanks wrote:if I'm not mistaken, this happens since 5.1.4, it's not suddenly, it's been for some time ... and yes, the 75 mm guns are super strong now, they should modify these damages that affect the balance


Whats wrong? Tank warfare is not about 100% bounce or 100% pen. There are afterall weak spots and as said, tanks like tank IV´s still have parts that arent thicker than 50mm which could be penetrated by the 75 mm at 700-800 meters and more.

The 75 mm is fine. Its feels a lot more realistic when tank to tank engagment has always some chances to score good hits. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more about tank to tank Warfare. I mean as said, there are weak armor parts, vision slots or MG mounts in the hull that can be penetrated, the lower glasics is also a weak spot on german tanks, you can hit the part between turret and hull..... so 20-25% seems quite fair against enemie medium tanks like Tank IV H/J version.

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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 09 Oct 2018, 19:45

my affirmations are not false, I can show you in pvp, if you want ... I'm also talking about 75 mm, I'm not talking about 76 mm or e8 ... do not get rid of the problem

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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MarKr » 09 Oct 2018, 20:35

@Shanks: Do you wanna test it? You build a Tiger (use Direct fire so that you don't destroy my tank), I build a Sherman and we'll see how many frontal shots it takes to destroy the Tiger - test game so we would repeat the test at least 10x
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Warhawks97 » 09 Oct 2018, 20:55

MarKr wrote:@Shanks: Do you wanna test it? You build a Tiger (use Direct fire so that you don't destroy my tank), I build a Sherman and we'll see how many frontal shots it takes to destroy the Tiger - test game so we would repeat the test at least 10x


Can you upload it then? 8-)

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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 10 Oct 2018, 00:31

everyone knows it, I do not need to prove it

kwok
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby kwok » 10 Oct 2018, 03:35

lol i don't know it. prove it.

that's what i did with mefisto with multiple tests and a replay. even still, there is debate on a topic. i feel asking for evidence is important to any decision making.

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MarKr
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MarKr » 10 Oct 2018, 06:45

Shanks wrote:everyone knows it, I do not need to prove it
I see you're taking the same way of argumentation as the flat earthers...ok.
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The New BK Champion
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby The New BK Champion » 10 Oct 2018, 11:41

Shanks wrote:everyone knows it, I do not need to prove it

I don't know it either. You mistake balance with unfortunate rng.

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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 10 Oct 2018, 11:42

I mean these situations ... then, when I have more time, I upload more tests


here an panzer "H" with tank captain, with a little damage, just a little, being destroyed by a sherman M4 75mm two shot, omg
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Warhawks97
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Warhawks97 » 10 Oct 2018, 12:13

Wait, perhaps i have that replay when i bounced twice with 76 mm and HVAP rounds?

I had a approx 25% chance to bounce off from Tank IV H with 76 mm gun and HVAP and bounced twice. Here the 75 mm had about 20-25% chance to pen and it did pen twice.

So where you got just incredible unlucky triggering twice a pen i got unlucky by triggering twice a bounce.
And as long as the 76 remains that weak vs tank IV´s i dont see a reason why the 75 mm should be nerfed against Tank IV´s.

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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 10 Oct 2018, 12:26

what you say?, the 76 mm are even better, what's more, you have AP ... the 75 mm should not have this destructive capacity, even pierce the hetzer frontally as if it had a butter shield, and it is very likely to happen. ... that bounces a shot 76 mm vs. "H" armor is weird, very weird for me

accept it once, 75 mm is overvalued, you can not deny it, these images show it ... is more, the panzer "H" had a captain,........and this scene is very frequent for me ... maybe I have so bad luck??????

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MarKr
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby MarKr » 10 Oct 2018, 12:39

Shanks wrote:here an panzer "H" with tank captain, with a little damage, just a little, being destroyed by a sherman M4 75mm two shot, omg
Man, PIV H has a lot better chance against an M4 Sherman than the other way.
Sherman vs PIV H
Penetration:
40%/33.8%/26%/19%
250-450 damage

PIV H vs Sherman:
Penetration:
130%/96%/86%/76%
400-600 damage
Both have 636HP.

So yes, it IS possible for M4 Sherman to penetrate PIV H twice in a row, the chance of it happening is about 3%. Chance to penetrate the M4 twice in a row with PIV H is about 57%. If you want to have a game where M4 has 1% chance to penetrate PIV H at max range, sorry, not gonna happen. Your PIV H already has advantage, advantage means you have higher chance to win, not guaranteed chance to win.

So TNBC is right:
The New BK Champion wrote:I don't know it either. You mistake balance with unfortunate rng.
It is just the buttered bread theorem all over again.
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Shanks
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Re: Hey Marck check this Please

Postby Shanks » 10 Oct 2018, 13:06

only for this they ask me for proofs, what a disappointment ... but I already expected it

they are not able to see the imbalance that this generates; I would explain it, I would even make a book to explain it, but they would simply say, "This is fine now, it will not change". It's okay, it does not matter, I'll just kick German asses with the allies


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