MarKr wrote:I went through it again and I can see I got it wrong at the first time.
So just so I am clear on this:
The "MK VI and MK VI" means the current 6pounder and 75mm Churchills, right?
From informations i gathered it seemed like that both had 6 pdr (the L/45, later L/50) and 75. Some sources say that the VI had only 6 pdr, others 75 mm. However there were two versions of 75 mm, the sherman gun and those of the cromwell. Perhaps we call them both MK IV. One with 6 pdr and one with 75 mm
At the end it wouldnt actually matter. Keep the IV with 6 pdr and VI with 75 mm and its fine.
If this is correct then I am not against the idea in general but still have some issues with this:
1) I am against lowering the armor strength of current "early Churchills" (6pounder + 75mm) - those that fall under the "1CP" section of this suggestion. They would return to being useless. Even if they are "slightly faster", they will still be slow as dirt and armor similar to Shermans would mean than any unit using 75mm L48 would be able to kill these tanks very easily even from range.
Currently a 76 sherman gets penetrated with approx 65% chance by 75 mm L/48 guns. Make it approx 50% or 45% for churchills (reflecting the higher side armor values when angled to the enemie) and its good... or 40%.
The L48 guns are mounted on everything, so it would mean that once you run into an AT HT or PIV, the Churchill is dead because 6 pounder nor 75mm cannot effectively fight PIVs and lighter vehicles have speed advantage so they can exploit the turret rotation time to take a shot, then retreat, relocate, take a shot again.
Which is the result of largely overated Tank IV armor. Esspecially the 50 mm F and E versions. The 76 guns have only a 67,5% chance to pen and the 75 mm, which proofed to be a very effective weapon against these 50 mm armor Tank IV and Tank III´s in north Afrika, have also just a 37% chance to pen. The 6 pdrs, which were also quite effective, have just a 31,5% chance.
So basically we would have churchills with 6 pdr or 75 mm fighting at least Tank IV F2´s as winners at the end, even when the 75 mm would have a 50% pen chance vs churchills.
I am afterall voting for having the tank IV J coming with skirts at default. Why? Bc then we could use the tank IV target type alone for the F and E versions with 50 mm armor without intefering with the 80 mm Tank IV´s which would only use Tank IV_skirt_type.
The "APDS" shot for 6pounder Churchills would not be so useful either because Panthers and Tigers have bigger range and are both faster than the Churchill so they would be able to keep kiting the Churchill (Churchill would have no chance to take a shot) until it is destroyed and with "Sherman" armor, they would destroy it with one or two shots.
At that time you should have the MK VII. The IV and VI are not supposed to "tank" them.
If the APDS shot was used against PIV or orther medium tanks, due to lower damage the shot would most likely not kill the target, while the target would most likely kill the Churchill (beacuse of its Sherman armor).[/quote]
Sorry again, but thats another thing connected to AP shot damage boost.
The 75 mm L/48 has max 600 damage. Churchill has 750 HP. But thx to AP damage boost the 75 mm damage goes up to 750 max...tada. So all these "Health advantages" (eg Churchill, Sherman, Panther) are usless as long as AP boosts the damage so massively.
The 6 pdr has 450 damage and with AP 562,5. Tank IV´s have arround 636 HP. That means 75 can oneshot healthy churchill due to AP damage boost while the churchill cant in return. Removing that damage boost and the churchill could take advantage of the higher rate of fire of its 6 pdr and perhaps even higher pen chances vs Tank IV f2 at least. Command tank can be used to bring the odds to churchills favour when fighting vs H/J Tank IV´s.
So I would keep the armor of these two as it is - it protects well from L48 but Tigers have at max range about 50% (and they can afford to come closer for more penetrative power because the 6pounder/75mm cannot hurt them) cannot effectively stop Panther or stronger shots.
As said, for Panthers and Tigers you should use the MK VII already to bounce them off.
I would say that the IV and VI could have 55%-60% chance to bounce L/48 shots without any boosts (Ambush, AP) and roughly 25% chance to bounce Tigers and Panthers.
The MK VII would be the real armor monster.
2) AVRE should also keep its armor. It should kill (mostly) AT emplacements and bunkers but most AT emplacements have same or bigger range than AVRE and if it gets weaker armor, then it will always get shot at and destroyed because pretty much every AT emplacement in the game can easily penetrtate Sherman-strong armor, so people would mainly go for 95mm Churchill because it would be safer to use.
Thats an issue indeed.
3) Buildable MK VII is possible but there is no free UI slot in the Armor HQ truck.
Though, number 3) could be solved by adding a sub-UI same way as the 2nd Truck has it.
I was just about to say.
Markr wrote:If you place next to each other the 6pounder, 75mm and Croc Churchills you will notice that they are actually the same (Croc has the flamethrower but that is just a animation variation). They have same size, same attachments, same looking guns, same scratches etc. only different textures. I don't know what were visual differences between the Mk IV/VI/VII versions but the versions we have in the Mod differ only in texture.
Ah, alright. Thats good.
