Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

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The New BK Champion
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 12 Sep 2018, 11:51

Hey, Markr can you check 2 things:

1. Periscope upgrade in TH tree doesn't do anything for me. I enabled it when my hetzer was ambushed, but it didn't receive any sight buff.
2. Button vehicle of CW section effect doesn't end even if infantry runs away. My hetzer still suffered sight nerf even after enemy inf was long gone.

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MarKr
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby MarKr » 12 Sep 2018, 11:58

1) Just checked it, yes, there is a bug. It will be fixed.
2) The ability applies its effect for a duration of time even if the vehicle drives back out of range or the squad retreats/runs. Did your Hetzer remained permanently "blinded" or did it come back to normal vision after some time?
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 12 Sep 2018, 14:15

Yes it came back to normal, but the old ability before the rework would stop affecting the vehicle if the section retreated iirc

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Tiger1996 » 12 Sep 2018, 14:30

The New BK Champion wrote:1. Periscope upgrade in TH tree doesn't do anything for me. I enabled it when my hetzer was ambushed, but it didn't receive any sight buff.

I am not sure if this is exactly a bug, for me it worked.. but I just had to leave ambush and activate it once again after the unlock.

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MarKr
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby MarKr » 12 Sep 2018, 15:44

The old ability of Tommies stopped working when they moved or when the vehicle moved out of range (which used be be shorter than now). Before we did the rework we asked about it and people said that any changes would be pointless because the ability would suffer from the same problem - you move your vehicle one "meter" back and the effect is gone. So we decided to simply keep the effect active for certain duration even if the squad or the target get out of range.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 12 Sep 2018, 16:05

It was unrealistic but logical - they stopped firing and effect also stopped. Now it doesn't make sense

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MarKr
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby MarKr » 12 Sep 2018, 17:45

So what would you want me to do? Make it so that you will reverse half a meter behind and immediately cancel the effect of the ability, making it basically useless? There is a lot of unrealistic abilities/things in the game, I think it is better to have an ability that makes little sense but is useful than ability that makes sense but is unuseable.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Selicia » 13 Sep 2018, 15:48

MarKr wrote:So what would you want me to do? Make it so that you will reverse half a meter behind and immediately cancel the effect of the ability, making it basically useless? There is a lot of unrealistic abilities/things in the game, I think it is better to have an ability that makes little sense but is useful than ability that makes sense but is unuseable.


From your stand point I agree that there's not much you can do that won't render the ability useless from it's current state. Some things have to take away the realism factors to be properly balanced.

Also I was going to ask why the basic mortar barrage abilities have such a small cooldown with no munition cost? The cooldown they have right now would make more sense if you had to spend a small or tiny amount of munitions. The amount of munitions you pay for the mortar units definitely does not compensate for that with how much mortars one shot infantry squads including veterans.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Sep 2018, 19:22

Selicia wrote:
Also I was going to ask why the basic mortar barrage abilities have such a small cooldown with no munition cost? The cooldown they have right now would make more sense if you had to spend a small or tiny amount of munitions. The amount of munitions you pay for the mortar units definitely does not compensate for that with how much mortars one shot infantry squads including veterans.


There had already been discussions about that matter. Not just one.

I actually agree with you. Recently i talked with someone in steam about it. Our idea was to remove ammo cost from mortar and instead add small prices for barrages.

Perhaps there would be two abilties. One is continues fire on one location. It doesnt fire barrages and instead keeps shooting with its normal speed (usually when first shell comes down they fire the next one) for a while or untill you deactivate it. Then there would be the barrage ability that we have right now which costs ammo per use but shooting as fast as now. 10 ammo for the 60 mm (and small once in general), 25 for the 81 (and CW 76 mm emplaced) and the 107mm and 120mm keep their 35 ammo cost per barrage.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 13 Sep 2018, 19:32

Warhawks97 wrote:
Selicia wrote:
Also I was going to ask why the basic mortar barrage abilities have such a small cooldown with no munition cost? The cooldown they have right now would make more sense if you had to spend a small or tiny amount of munitions. The amount of munitions you pay for the mortar units definitely does not compensate for that with how much mortars one shot infantry squads including veterans.


There had already been discussions about that matter. Not just one.

I actually agree with you. Recently i talked with someone in steam about it. Our idea was to remove ammo cost from mortar and instead add small prices for barrages.

Perhaps there would be two abilties. One is continues fire on one location. It doesnt fire barrages and instead keeps shooting with its normal speed (usually when first shell comes down they fire the next one) for a while or untill you deactivate it. Then there would be the barrage ability that we have right now which costs ammo per use but shooting as fast as now. 10 ammo for the 60 mm (and small once in general), 25 for the 81 (and CW 76 mm emplaced) and the 107mm and 120mm keep their 35 ammo cost per barrage.


I disagree, there have to be at least 1 indirect firing weapon that is free. Making barrages paid with ammo will encourage camping, especially on maps where ammo income for each side is like +20.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Selicia » 13 Sep 2018, 20:48

The New BK Champion wrote:I disagree, there have to be at least 1 indirect firing weapon that is free. Making barrages paid with ammo will encourage camping, especially on maps where ammo income for each side is like +20.


If people camp there's plenty of other solutions besides mortar spam. The ability to spam any kind of barrage without the use of ammo is destructive to people who properly micro and manage their infantry. And there's still the direct fire that's free so your argument doesn't really hold well.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Sep 2018, 20:53

I think when there is really heavy cmaping going on, a single mortar wont destroy a pit as fast as a new one gets build. Camping is best broken with a well coordinated and powerfull arty strike.

Still his argument is entirely nonsense. However, the possibility to continue shooting without ammo cost still exists. Would like to hear what others say to this matter.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 13 Sep 2018, 20:56

Selicia wrote:
The New BK Champion wrote:I disagree, there have to be at least 1 indirect firing weapon that is free. Making barrages paid with ammo will encourage camping, especially on maps where ammo income for each side is like +20.


If people camp there's plenty of other solutions besides mortar spam. The ability to spam any kind of barrage without the use of ammo is destructive to people who properly micro and manage their infantry. And there's still the direct fire that's free so your argument doesn't really hold well.


Ha, tell me other ways :lol: :lol:

Direct fire doesn't work on 70% of mortars at all

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 13 Sep 2018, 21:45

To be honest, I don't like how mortar halftracks are these ultimate weapons of destruction that lay down insane DPS barrages everywhere it fires as long as you keep clicking mortar barrage ability on an area where you think the enemy is. Keep using that barrage ability and chances are you gonna get wicked amount of kills and vet with it as long as it stays alive.

What I would like is if mortar barrage gets nerfed, smoke barrage gets buffed. Because this smoke cover doesn't last long enough. I think last I heard it lasts around 30 seconds from the time one lands? By the time the smoke is 'set up' and you move your units forward, the smoke is already gone and you get mowed down to death. That and MG's + other stuff still sometimes suppress through smoke. I've had entire squads pinned even though they were taking little damage when I thought for sure the entire area was smoked. I would like to test if suppressive fire ability from MG's still does insane levels of suppression through smoke and perhaps that could be one of the causes behind this.

If smoke shells got buffed I'd be happy with a nerf to mortar barrage, because then you can setup smoke assaults instead of it being that one-time thing used when in really excellent-conditions in terms of how the game is going/what map is being played.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby mofetagalactica » 13 Sep 2018, 22:31

MenciusMoldbug wrote:To be honest, I don't like how mortar halftracks are these ultimate weapons of destruction that lay down insane DPS barrages everywhere it fires as long as you keep clicking mortar barrage ability on an area where you think the enemy is. Keep using that barrage ability and chances are you gonna get wicked amount of kills and vet with it as long as it stays alive.

What I would like is if mortar barrage gets nerfed, smoke barrage gets buffed. Because this smoke cover doesn't last long enough. I think last I heard it lasts around 30 seconds from the time one lands? By the time the smoke is 'set up' and you move your units forward, the smoke is already gone and you get mowed down to death. That and MG's + other stuff still sometimes suppress through smoke. I've had entire squads pinned even though they were taking little damage when I thought for sure the entire area was smoked. I would like to test if suppressive fire ability from MG's still does insane levels of suppression through smoke and perhaps that could be one of the causes behind this.

If smoke shells got buffed I'd be happy with a nerf to mortar barrage, because then you can setup smoke assaults instead of it being that one-time thing used when in really excellent-conditions in terms of how the game is going/what map is being played.


Angre angre agree agree

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby winterflaw » 15 Sep 2018, 13:40

MarKr wrote:That is weird...I thought the last version we released as non-steam was the 5.1.0. Where did you get the installer? Moddb?


Yes, from Moddb.

Searching on the site itself only returns 5.0.0.

Searching via Google finds 5.1.3 beta.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 15 Sep 2018, 22:22

?
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby kwok » 16 Sep 2018, 00:48

Omg I agree with Mencius so much it hurts. I’ve hated the skill-less nature of mortar halfteacks ever since I first saw mortar halftracks.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 16 Sep 2018, 02:43

kwok wrote:Omg I agree with Mencius so much it hurts. I’ve hated the skill-less nature of mortar halfteacks ever since I first saw mortar halftracks.


Mortar hts are easy tactical choice but at the same time quite high skill is required to keep them alive, becuase opponensts always prioritise taking them out. They are as valuable as fragile despite their obvious mobility advantage.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Shanks » 16 Sep 2018, 11:54

Warhawks97 wrote:I think when there is really heavy cmaping going on, a single mortar wont destroy a pit as fast as a new one gets build. Camping is best broken with a well coordinated and powerfull arty strike.

Still his argument is entirely nonsense. However, the possibility to continue shooting without ammo cost still exists. Would like to hear what others say to this matter.



all the mortars work as they should work at this moment, i do not see the need to modify anything, and it would be absurd to spend ammunition for rounds of mortars, is what i believe

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby kwok » 19 Sep 2018, 15:34

The New BK Champion wrote:
kwok wrote:Omg I agree with Mencius so much it hurts. I’ve hated the skill-less nature of mortar halfteacks ever since I first saw mortar halftracks.


Mortar hts are easy tactical choice but at the same time quite high skill is required to keep them alive, becuase opponensts always prioritise taking them out. They are as valuable as fragile despite their obvious mobility advantage.


Can't tell if you're joking or not.
Keeping mortar hts alive is def not an issue in my opinion. Especially since their biggest asset as an indirect weapon is their mobility, it helps them get in and out of trouble. It's pretty much the whole intent of the mortar ht, to be a nuisance that keeps being able to slip away. When the mortar ht is the most killing unit for most players at the lowest levels and sometimes highest levels of skill, I can hardly think of any reason to say that it is a "difficult unit" to use. I find it laughable that people believe it takes serious skill to use mortar hts while complain about stationary artillery pieces like the inf doc mortar pits or RA doc super charged round mortar pits, each of them easily countered by mortar halftracks.

Sorry, I need to call some players out:
When Panzer Lehr use to play his crutch was mortar halftracks. He consistently makes 2 per game and all he did was ran them around behind his mg42 and pak 50s.
Wurf scores at least 70% of his early to mid game kills with mortar halftracks, consistently making it his 4th to 6th unit (varying since he has been changing up his build order from the luft buffs)
Tavares makes a mortar halftrack ASAP and continually makes one if he loses it through the entire game. The mortar halftrack probably handles 40% of his kills the entire game.
Almost every US players USE to make mortar halftracks purely to counter mortar halftracks and the typical mg42 lines (but the extremely early mortar opening and rocket jeep is surging in popularity as a quick "hit fast early and win before i can be attacked" alternative)
Back when I was learning BK from a really good player named ivelios, who easily had the best micro in the community even compared to today (I can only think of mencius being right behind or on par), the only way I could beat him was with mortar halftracks despite his overwhelming micro advantage. He was extremely stubborn and didn't even use stationary units like HMGs, it was his principle (ironically he refused to make any mortar halftracks too, and this stubborn nature let me beat him). Ivelios was a high mobility, high micro player and his weakness was mortar halftracks because he refused to mortar halftrack me back.

Even units that resemble the same capabilities as mortar halftracks are the backbone of many player strategies and quickly become a crutch rather than a tool. I'm going to call my boy shadow out on this one:
Ever since the arty cromwell was intro'd to RAF and then quickly removed, he has been pining for its return. When the arty cromwell came out, it became 70% of his kills and somewhat hurt his overall skill with RAF. When it got removed, he had a hard time adjusting back despite having years of experience with RAF without the arty cromwell. Sure the arty cromwell is just slightly more durable than the mortar halftrack and has a longer range, but the capabilities exist: relatively cheap, indirect fire and mobility which is a formula for extremely easy unit to make it worth its cost.

Another similar backbone unit within the RA doctrine is the AT halftrack that converts to an arty unit. Completely unused within the RE doctrine but almost always used within the RA doctrine. Pretty much same principles. Almost every meta following RA player, including you illa, rushes for this unit because it makes up for the brit's lack of a mortar halftrack.

Some of the things that make it not something people complain about the last two units mentioned as much when it is in other doctrines is the munition cost and the inherent reload/cooldown time between using its abilities. I did the same thing in my mod and included it for stationary mortars as well. It adds more micro skill needed to the unit, creates a resource allocation decision, and naturally punishes poor planning/purely reactive playing.

I get that there is worry that having all indirect fire have a cost might encourage camping because it will net buff emplacements and defensive units. My answer to that is the same as always: play bigger maps. A unit can only cover so much of a zone. When I play bigger maps, I don't find as much of a need to use arty of any kind. Playing bigger maps is even a nearly good enough nerf to mortar halftracks on its own, but if players continue to keep playing tiny arty party maps then I agree with mencius and that mortar halftracks are a huge, demoralizing, aggravating, fun sucking way for higher level players to piss off each other

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 Sep 2018, 17:15

kwok wrote:Back when I was learning BK from a really good player named ivelios, who easily had the best micro in the community even compared to today (I can only think of mencius being right behind or on par), the only way I could beat him was with mortar halftracks despite his overwhelming micro advantage. He was extremely stubborn and didn't even use stationary units like HMGs, it was his principle (ironically he refused to make any mortar halftracks too, and this stubborn nature let me beat him). Ivelios was a high mobility, high micro player and his weakness was mortar halftracks because he refused to mortar halftrack me back.

in my opinion ivelios was that much good ONLY in 2 maps, Linden and "Lyon" of course.. other than that, he was pretty normal.. or even less.
Before I joined Bk Mod, some many years ago... I also used to play the RelicCoH ALWAYS on the same map (St.MereDuMont) and thus, I was nearly unbeatable on this map.. however, later I discovered that it was only because I kept playing the same map the entire time, and not because I was any good at all. Once i changed the map.. almost everyone was able to beat me in about 10 minutes on every other map :p

About the mortar half-tracks;
I oppose adding ammo price to the barrage ability, I would - however - probably increase the cool-down time of the barrage ability instead...

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Sep 2018, 18:56

Tiger1996 wrote:
kwok wrote:Back when I was learning BK from a really good player named ivelios, who easily had the best micro in the community even compared to today (I can only think of mencius being right behind or on par), the only way I could beat him was with mortar halftracks despite his overwhelming micro advantage. He was extremely stubborn and didn't even use stationary units like HMGs, it was his principle (ironically he refused to make any mortar halftracks too, and this stubborn nature let me beat him). Ivelios was a high mobility, high micro player and his weakness was mortar halftracks because he refused to mortar halftrack me back.

in my opinion ivelios was that much good ONLY in 2 maps, Linden and "Lyon" of course.. other than that, he was pretty normal.. or even less.
Before I joined Bk Mod, some many years ago... I also used to play the RelicCoH ALWAYS on the same map (St.MereDuMont) and thus, I was nearly unbeatable on this map.. however, later I discovered that it was only because I kept playing the same map the entire time, and not because I was any good at all. Once i changed the map.. almost everyone was able to beat me in about 10 minutes on every other map :p

About the mortar half-tracks;
I oppose adding ammo price to the barrage ability, I would - however - probably increase the cool-down time of the barrage ability instead...



Thats the case with many players that i can remember. However that doesnt change the point and fact Kwok explained.


I feel almost honoured that i didnt use the Mortar HT for like the last 20 games. Mostly bc the meta shifted towards quick rocket arty that instantly fires at it, so i swapped to the calli jeep instead before i risk 400 MP for a HT that might get blown up bc my enemie brings a Hotchkiss. Hotchkiss Meta makes US Mortar HT quite usless bc both are at the same time availbale, just the Hotchkiss is way cheaper and even much more mobile atm. One missile hit is enough to blow up the HT. So US Mortar HT Meta is currently less often used.


It doesnt change the truth about mortars whatsoever. They have 0 cooldown, veery good accuracy and no cost to use. Most of the time the first shot of a barrage hits the target. I mean really the first shot of a barrage which is very annoying since its often a insta kill of an entire Squad (AT gun, HMG or inf squad).

A admit, if i have no vision and no enemies in sight i do let my mortars barrage nonstop every square meter of the Fog of war and as long as my mortar is alive.

And its true that many many players making the majority of kills with mortars or lets say mortar HT.


Regarding my Gameplay: Thats the reason why i want a game that never gets campy and why i rush aggressive with vehicles hoping for a gap in the not yet fully closed wall of AT guns and TD´s in order to hit and destroy mortars. I am buying time with that.


Two abilities, a contniues one (which is pretty much normal attack order) that fires the next shot when the first impacted and a barrage mode that costs ammo. I dont see an issue why it would ruin the mortars. You can let it fire by will for 0 ammo, continues shooting for 0 ammo and, in case you really wanna break a strong point, use the barrage ability as if you use arty. 10-20 ammo isnt that much i think.

That could make the 60 mm also more appealing since it could fire cheap. Atm its a usless weapon which can be only used for smoke sometimes.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby MarKr » 22 Sep 2018, 11:42

As for the "mortar barrage should cost ammo" - I am not really against it. Especsially when mortars have the "Attack ground" button which allows you to pretty much keep shelling some location non-stop for free anyway. So perhaps it could be made the way that "normal" shots (that is free-fire and Attack ground) would have longer time between shots but would be free and the Barrage ability would cost ammo but it would fire faster compared to the non-payed attacks.

As for "buffing" smoke abilities of mortars. They could fire more smoke rounds in faster succession so that the smoke screen would deploy faster, leaving more room infantry attacks.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 5.1.5

Postby The New BK Champion » 22 Sep 2018, 11:46

MarKr wrote:As for the "mortar barrage should cost ammo" - I am not really against it. Especsially when mortars have the "Attack ground" button which allows you to pretty much keep shelling some location non-stop for free anyway. So perhaps it could be made the way that "normal" shots (that is free-fire and Attack ground) would have longer time between shots but would be free and the Barrage ability would cost ammo but it would fire faster compared to the non-payed attacks.


I told u already that attac groud doesn't work on mortars.


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