[5.1.5] random immobilization.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I won't say much.. but here i'm going to point out a very significant matter, and only in a few lines.

After recently reducing ALL vehicle speeds, specifically when moving on craters or rough terrain.. then I believe "random immobilization" shouldn't be a thing in Bk Mod anymore. I mean random immobilization by artillery shells, HE rounds, or any other weapons...

If somebody wants to immobilize tanks from now on, they gotta have to use some mines or PIATS.. and only those.

So, scenarios like these shouldn't ever happen again:
- Pershing getting immobilized by PanzerShreck, Stuka rockets, or SD2.
- Tiger1 getting immobilized by HE Sherman, 76 Sherman, or arty shells.

Even flamethrowers shouldn't immobilize tanks anymore.

Also btw, I can safely tell that "arty" is now more powerful than ever before...
Specifically the Priest and Hotchkiss, they are extremely powerful now.. just insanity at the moment.

I know the intention was to reduce arty effectiveness.. but apparently it backfired.

Otherwise, for me.. this game is currently broken at the moment.

[mofetagalactica]

I won't say much.. but here i'm going to point out a very significant matter, and only in a few lines.

After recently reducing ALL vehicle speeds, specifically when moving on craters or rough terrain.. then I believe "random immobilization" shouldn't be a thing in Bk Mod anymore. I mean random immobilization by artillery shells, HE rounds, or any other weapons...

If somebody wants to immobilize tanks from now on, they gotta have to use some mines or PIATS.. and only those.

So, scenarios like these shouldn't ever happen again:
- Pershing getting immobilized by PanzerShreck, Stuka rockets, or SD2.
- Tiger1 getting immobilized by HE Sherman, 76 Sherman, or arty shells.

Even flamethrowers shouldn't immobilize tanks anymore.

Also btw, I can safely tell that "arty" is now more powerful than ever before...
Specifically the Priest and Hotchkiss, they are extremely powerful now.. just insanity at the moment.

I know the intention was to reduce arty effectiveness.. but apparently it backfired.

Otherwise, for me.. this game is currently broken at the moment.

Meh.. Immobilization its pretty fine for me, we just have to wait for the hotfix of the arty, but yeah atm arty its pretty game breaking and a few of the bugs mentioned.

[kwok]

Agreed with mofeta.

[Krieger Blitzer]

We need to wait the hotfix to tweak arty.. ya, because now the Priest literally has barbarossa cannon, more like 300mm gun with insane rate of fire, ultimate accuracy and 9999999999 damage.. immobilized and killed the JagdTiger better and faster than Long Tom arty.

Not to mention the Hotchkiss shooting little SturmTiger nuke rockets everywhere.


However, apart from that.. random immobilization also makes this game sick, unplayable and really worth quitting.

Watching scenarios like Tiger1 losing 1v1 against Scott or 76 Sherman.. only due to immobilization, is just utter ridiculous... And shows how much Bk Mod is simply broken.

Yesterday I also lost a Pershing the same way against ambushed Hetzer.. immobilized right away.

If random immobilization isn't removed on the next release, then I am considering to quit Bk Mod, and without return.

[mofetagalactica]

Stay calm tiger, the only thing you have to do is wait, thats all you can do devs already knows the problem and that the current game is broken. Just stop playing until the hotfix comes, thats what i usually do in these cases.

[MarKr]

So...vehicles move slower over craters and so there should be no random immobilization crits on tanks. On top of that immobilization of tanks should be done only through mines (iirc some factions have only access to anti-infantry mines so they would never immobilize tanks) and PIATs because...yeah, because. Anyone else can see very little connection between the suggestion and the reason given for the suggestion?

because now the Priest literally has barbarossa cannon, more like 300mm gun with insane rate of fire, ultimate accuracy and 9999999999 damage...

Priest has literally 105mm howitzer, with maximum of basic 603 damage on direct hit modified for tanks to 452.

Watching scenarios like Tiger1 losing 1v1 against Scott or 76 Sherman.. only due to immobilization, is just utter ridiculous... And shows how much Bk Mod is simply broken.

Interesting how you speak of immobilisation as the main problem here but immobilization chances were not touched at all. So how comes it was not a problem before but it such a huge problem now?

Yesterday I also lost a Pershing the same way against ambushed Hetzer.. immobilized right away.

Again - chances were not changed, so if it happened yesterday, it could have happened the same way any time before for past several years.

If random immobilization isn't removed on the next release, then I am considering to quit Bk Mod, and without return.

Another person coming with the "it needs to be changed or I quit"...it seems that people don't understand what a blackmailing requires in order to be successful...
Anyway, changes to the main issues mentioned in the main 5.1.5 topic are on the way, but immobilization chances stay.

[Warhawks97]

Leave the immobilization. Back then arty used to have a much higher chance to immobilize tanks but that chance got lowered already.

Tracks are simply a highly vulnerable part of tanks. If it wasnt possible to pen the tank right away then crews tended to aim for the tracks. Such secondary damages had been the main reason for the overall low combat availability of tanks and in particular Tigers.
Thats simply something you need to consider. I just hate it when there is a guy player that goes for Jagdtiger when playing against an arty/inf and air doc just because its big.
If you want to stop many enemie tanks: Go in armor and gun power, if you face lots if inf/arty/planes: share the risk by getting more but cheaper units and use speed rather than armor.

Such luck/bad luck moments happen to all of us, sometimes in our favour and sometimes not. You would have to remove actually all crit types that can be caused by normal gunfire but that would make the game very boring. If you look arround in games then most of them have such lucky aspects and thats how reality is.

Also in the loading screen there is even a recommendation to use arty in order to hold tank assaults by immobilizing them.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Another person coming with the "it needs to be changed or I quit"...it seems that people don't understand what a blackmailing requires in order to be successful...

I was not blackmailing... If i really wanted to do that, then I would have done it another way(s).

However, here i am really not blackmailing. Simply, i'm saying that scenarios like these:

Watching scenarios like Tiger1 losing 1v1 against Scott or 76 Sherman.. only due to immobilization, is just utter ridiculous... And shows how much Bk Mod is simply broken.

Yesterday I also lost a Pershing the same way against ambushed Hetzer.. immobilized right away.

... are just not fun.. before and after the patch. And i just pointed out that after the patch it became even worse, because there were other changes to nerf heavy tanks too.

Oh, and about the Priest.. as I already pointed out... The problem is the accuracy and rate of fire, combined with the damage.. the Priest can deliver 1000 damage in only a matter of seconds, leaving no chance to escape.

So, bottom line.. for me, the game is simply unplayable.. and thus I said i can't play it this way, not trying to blackmail u. So.. change it or not, but losing a Tiger1 tank 1v1 against 76 Sherman or Scott.. or losing a Pershing 1v1 against ambushed Hetzer just because of a lucky immobilization, is simply bull-shit.. and makes heavy tanks no different from light tanks, and not worth their cost at all, period.

[The New BK Champion]

Tanks should not have HE rounds cuz this is bullshit to lose whole elite squad to one tank shot. They are no different from sappers then, not worth their cost.

[MarKr]

I was not blackmailing... If i really wanted to do that, then I would have done it another way(s).

OK, I just saying that people often come with a post like "if this is not changed, I'm leaving the game" and it seems that it should shock us that someone is leaving and that will make us do what the person asks. So it simply seems that such person wants to use the "I will leave" as a leverage on us to push through their ideas, because why else to say that at all? People leave games all the time without announcing it anywhere.

Simply, i'm saying that scenarios like these:

Watching scenarios like Tiger1 losing 1v1 against Scott or 76 Sherman.. only due to immobilization, is just utter ridiculous... And shows how much Bk Mod is simply broken.

Yesterday I also lost a Pershing the same way against ambushed Hetzer.. immobilized right away.

... are just not fun.. before and after the patch. And i just pointed out that after the patch it became even worse, because there were other changes to nerf heavy tanks too.
(...)
So.. change it or not, but losing a Tiger1 tank 1v1 against 76 Sherman or Scott.. or losing a Pershing 1v1 against ambushed Hetzer just because of a lucky immobilization, is simply bull-shit..

On one hand you make it sound as if it was the case in 80% of all games. But then you say "because of LUCKY" immobilization which clearly sates that such situations happen rarely. It can happen but it is not majority of cases. Hetzer shooting from camo is now actually weaker than it used to be because it no longer has +200% penetration, so there is bigger chance for heavy tanks to bounce off the shot and thus not getting any crit. So the situation here is actually better than it used to be. And Shermans immobilizing Tigers with HE, again, Tigers have more range now and HE shots have even less range that the standard 60, so in 1v1 situations Tiger has advantage - HE has range of 50, Tiger's standard gun has 65. The HE shot deals 20 damage and has 10% chance to detrack the Tiger, so as I say - it does not happen in majority of cases.

Tanks should not have HE rounds cuz this is bullshit to lose whole elite squad to one tank shot. They are no different from sappers then, not worth their cost.

Not really connected to this topic but I was thinking that the HE shots could deal a lot less damage to infantry in yellow/green cover but could deal a lot more damage to those cover objects. So hitting infantry in the open with HE shot could deal serious damage but shooting at infantry in such cover could work as cover-wrecker.

[The New BK Champion]

Tanks should not have HE rounds cuz this is bullshit to lose whole elite squad to one tank shot. They are no different from sappers then, not worth their cost.

Not really connected to this topic but I was thinking that the HE shots could deal a lot less damage to infantry in yellow/green cover but could deal a lot more damage to those cover objects. So hitting infantry in the open with HE shot could deal serious damage but shooting at infantry in such cover could work as cover-wrecker.

That was sarcasm xDD. But might be an ok idea

[MarKr]

Oh, OK But still - HE shots on tanks can be devastating against infantry even in green cover and since the targetting got fixed it is often sort of no brainer if you should get the HE or not because for relatively low costs it can kill even elite squads easily. So it could be worth a try to make the HE shots first blast sandbags and other types of cover and make the life on infantry a bit easier.

[The New BK Champion]

Oh, OK But still - HE shots on tanks can be devastating against infantry even in green cover and since the targetting got fixed it is often sort of no brainer if you should get the HE or not because for relatively low costs it can kill even elite squads easily. So it could be worth a try to make the HE shots first blast sandbags and other types of cover and make the life on infantry a bit easier.

And that's how the greatest balance ideas are born!

[Krieger Blitzer]

OK, I just saying that people often come with a post like "if this is not changed, I'm leaving the game" and it seems that it should shock us that someone is leaving and that will make us do what the person asks. So it simply seems that such person wants to use the "I will leave" as a leverage on us to push through their ideas, because why else to say that at all? People leave games all the time without announcing it anywhere.

I was saying it just as an expression of my frustration.. as I was trying to say that the game is becoming less fun to me.. given the issues i described. Thus, I said that if those issues would remain, then i would not want to play it anymore. This isn't intended as blackmailing.. but a simple expression of being disappointed from the game.
Therefore; it's not like "change it or i leave" but rather just "it's really not fun to me anymore this way" regardless if anyone is shocked or not, sorry if it sounded like "change it or i leave" though, didn't mean it that way.

in other words, I was only expressing my inner frustration.. but without saying that you have to worry about it... So I hope this point is cleared out now.

On one hand you make it sound as if it was the case in 80% of all games. But then you say "because of LUCKY" immobilization which clearly sates that such situations happen rarely. It can happen but it is not majority of cases. Hetzer shooting from camo is now actually weaker than it used to be because it no longer has +200% penetration, so there is bigger chance for heavy tanks to bounce off the shot and thus not getting any crit. So the situation here is actually better than it used to be. And Shermans immobilizing Tigers with HE, again, Tigers have more range now and HE shots have even less range that the standard 60, so in 1v1 situations Tiger has advantage - HE has range of 50, Tiger's standard gun has 65. The HE shot deals 20 damage and has 10% chance to detrack the Tiger, so as I say - it does not happen in majority of cases.

Thing is it's not that rare.. also, Scott has more range than Tigers and Panthers, or am I wrong? Same way Stuh has more range than any Allied tanks... Meaning that Stuh and Scott can keep harassing those tanks from safe distance.. i am fine with that! However, why also being able to immobilize targets from distance???

Also, it's not HE that immobilized my heavy tank.. but AP rounds. Yes, regular AP rounds penetrated AND immobilized the heavy tank. 76 Sherman penetrated the Tiger1, soaking half of the health AND immobilizing it.

Hetzer soaking half of the health of Pershing AND immobilizing it!!! isn't this actually too much?

Also, US have AT mines in all docs.. and CW has Hawkings which can immobilize tanks, in all docs too. Not to mention Gammon bombs and PIATs.

WH has molotov for Volks, and PE Grenadiers have AT grenade which can also immobilize tanks...

Then why "regular penetrated AP rounds" in addition to "HE rounds" as well as "arty shells" AND "flamethrowers" also need to immobilize tanks???!!!

Don't u think that there are too many immobilization tools this way??

Oh, OK But still - HE shots on tanks can be devastating against infantry even in green cover and since the targetting got fixed it is often sort of no brainer if you should get the HE or not because for relatively low costs it can kill even elite squads easily. So it could be worth a try to make the HE shots first blast sandbags and other types of cover and make the life on infantry a bit easier.

Making life of inf even easier than now??
Are u planning to make "inf only mode" primary too? Or are u going to better just remove tanks from the game??

[Shanks]

Tanks should not have HE rounds cuz this is bullshit to lose whole elite squad to one tank shot. They are no different from sappers then, not worth their cost.

Not really connected to this topic but I was thinking that the HE shots could deal a lot less damage to infantry in yellow/green cover but could deal a lot more damage to those cover objects. So hitting infantry in the open with HE shot could deal serious damage but shooting at infantry in such cover could work as cover-wrecker.

That was sarcasm xDD. But might be an ok idea

the tiger is right, because I feel that the artillery is now stronger, the heavy tanks do not justify their current cost,
the 76mm and 75mm guns are too effective now.

I did not find your sarcasm funny, the artillery can kill elite squads, more easily than a simple shot (HE) of a heavy tank


@Markr-I do not know exactly what modified the artillery (105 mm for example), because they are much more effective than before, I think it was better in version 5.1.4 .... could put it back as before? .. I mean that the damage should be as before, if they modified the presicion is fine now....too, It would be a bad idea to give a greater bonus to the infantry

[Warhawks97]

That was the problem of super heavy single units (let it be tanks or ships). One Engine failure, accident, traitor, sabotage, arty shell, track damage etc etc etc and the whole tank/ship had to retreat which means you had nothing else left at the front although having not even lost a tank.

That stuhs and scotts outrange tanks is silly, i know, but i would rather keep the chance of HE shots and arty shells to create so called secondary damage on tanks rather as to remove it. As i said, this is that kind of gameplay i actually like and RNG and luck is always involved and all units are affected. Like HE shot hits the dirt or whipes an entire squad or it kills the guy with the AT weapon during his aim and thus prevent the shot or not, scatter etc etc etc. There are a lot of "luck factors". Removing them would mean that we would only have 0% and 100% chances for everything (miss or hit, pen not pen, crit not pen). Such 1000% foreseeable games would be hell boring. And this kind of luck is what people keeps staying in games till the very end hoping for perhaps a lucky moment to turn the tide. Its not that it happens to only the same players or units, all are affected.

Lets assume we have lets say firefly with 100% pen vs tiger and the 75 mm with 0%. What would people keep in a game when the firefly is dead when they know that every other unit has simply 0% chance to do anything (pen, crit). People would leave the game very often. Why even bothering sending a sherman into fight or activating a howitzer knowing its absolutely pointless.

We would also have to set all damage values to one level instead of max min damage.
For example M10 achilles vs Panther. Either you trigger max damage from ambush and the Panther is dead outright or you dont and the Panther keeps a alive and shreds your M10.
How shall we proceed here? Which unit should be allowed to oneshot which unit just by triggering max damage?

We also would have to remove all chances to fail with a shot and instead only giving fixed damage modifier to units that stay in cover, else the chance to miss with a shot is too much luck (RNG) and thus "frustrating".

I think if we would do what you want we would remove all the fun with sudden turns, ups and downs and "adrenalin factor" from the game.

the tiger is right, because I feel that the artillery is now stronger, the heavy tanks do not justify their current cost,
the 76mm and 75mm guns are too effective now.

What got changed? Nothing actually against heavies.

I did not find your sarcasm funny, the artillery can kill elite squads, more easily than a simple shot (HE) of a heavy tank

Before it was quite unfair that allied tanks took the full damage and dying by close impacts while axis tanks didnt.
We have changed that (so also allied tanks take 25% less damage from arty)

Also arty deals more damage on impact point but less in its proximity so close hits deal by far less damage to tanks.

Before change a sherman took 502,5 damage from direct 105 hit, now its 452,25 and much less from close hits.
A Tank and any other axis tank took 376,875 damage from direct hit, now its 452,25 like allis. Close hits however deal far less damage than before.


So shermans got actually more resistant now but i guess you didnt notice that bc you never cared about them. But dare there are changes on the beloved heavy tanks..... In fact allied tanks take less damage from direct hit except for 150 mm nebler which now deals 35 more damage on direct hit but less by close hits. I think rocket arty got a slight buff in terms of damage by direct hit but deals less now for close hits.
So basically the taken damage from direct howitzer type arty hits got set to the middle between that what allied took and axis took as you can see.

[MarKr]

Thing is it's not that rare.. also, Scott has more range than Tigers and Panthers, or am I wrong? Same way Stuh has more range than any Allied tanks...
(...)
Also, it's not HE that immobilized my heavy tank.. but AP rounds.
(...)
Hetzer soaking half of the health of Pershing AND immobilizing it!!!

(howitzers have the give chance to immobilize the unit every time they hit, penetration does not apply here)
Scott
- range: 70
- damage: 100 (Medium units: 75; Tigers/Panthers: 50; KTs and other big stuff: 10)
- immobilization chance when target is on full HP: 5%

StuH
- range: 85
- damage: 335 (Medium units: 251; Jumbo/Churchills:167; Pershings/SP/Croc Churchill: 83)
- immobilization chance when target is on full HP: 10%

Sherman 76 vs Tiger and also Hetzer vs Pershing:
immobilization chance at full HP: 5% (but needs to penetrate so the chance is actually "5% of the percentage of shots that actually penetrate, so it is practically lower)
when the tank is at about 60% of HP or less there is 25% to damage engine and 10% to immobilize (still needs to penetrate first so practically the chance is lower)

Hetzer, when shooting from camo has damage and penetration bonus so it is more likely to bring the target below 60% with the first hit but still - 10% to completely immobilize, 25% to lower speed, more or less one shot out of 3 can cause some sort of movement penalty (still IF it penetrates).

So I would say it IS quite rare.

@Markr-I do not know exactly what modified the artillery (105 mm for example), because they are much more effective than before, I think it was better in version 5.1.4 .... could put it back as before? .. I mean that the damage should be as before, if they modified the presicion is fine now....

It's about tuning the numbers. No need to reverse it immediately. In general the old system was not really better because it did less damage on direct hits but more damage overall in the AoE. The current system (once it is tuned) will deal more damage on direct hits but less damage on near hits - what is wrong with that? I know, at the moment it does not work like this but when we get to the desired system, it will be better.

If you saw the 5.1.5 post the hotfix is on beta now and will be released to live version later today - it adresses the things reported about Priest and some rocket artillery. We'll see how it works and tweak it further if needed. I know that it would have been better to solve this in the beta stage but this has been in the beta of 5.1.5 from the start - for 5 months - and the only report about possible issue came few days before the release. People complain about buggy releases but when they actually can help to make the release less buggy, it seems that they don't care to help all that much, so I don't know what more we can do.

[Shanks]

@Markr-I do not know exactly what modified the artillery (105 mm for example), because they are much more effective than before, I think it was better in version 5.1.4 .... could put it back as before? .. I mean that the damage should be as before, if they modified the presicion is fine now....

It's about tuning the numbers. No need to reverse it immediately. In general the old system was not really better because it did less damage on direct hits but more damage overall in the AoE. The current system (once it is tuned) will deal more damage on direct hits but less damage on near hits - what is wrong with that? I know, at the moment it does not work like this but when we get to the desired system, it will be better.

If you saw the 5.1.5 post the hotfix is on beta now and will be released to live version later today - it adresses the things reported about Priest and some rocket artillery. We'll see how it works and tweak it further if needed. I know that it would have been better to solve this in the beta stage but this has been in the beta of 5.1.5 from the start - for 5 months - and the only report about possible issue came few days before the release. People complain about buggy releases but when they actually can help to make the release less buggy, it seems that they don't care to help all that much, so I don't know what more we can do.

Anyway I've already uploaded a repetition haha, and yes, you're right, people do not collaborate with the beta versions, to be able to correct some mistakes, on the other hand I think you should leave the same damage from the direct hit of the artillery (105 mm) , which had in version 5.1.4

[Warhawks97]

Anyway I've already uploaded a repetition haha, and yes, you're right, people do not collaborate with the beta versions, to be able to correct some mistakes, on the other hand I think you should leave the same damage from the direct hit of the artillery (105 mm) , which had in version 5.1.4

Ah, so that your beloved heavy axis tanks take 376,875 damage (thus three direct hits required to take out a tank IV. Jagdpanthers took even less damage and even less after zimmerit and even much less for the KT (which took arround 250 damage per direct hit) while the shermans and pershing could take the 500 damage per hit. Seems fair.

Generally tanks have just got standard damage from direct hits. The sherman as well as a KT will take 452,25 damage from direct hits now. If you throw the argument: The KT has more armor, well, in old version a Jumbo took more damage from arty although having bigger armor than a silly Halftrack and still took more damage per hit.

Perhaps the bigger tanks could have some extra protection like instead of 25% less damage they take 30% less or 35%. The damage would be arround 391,95 for a direct hit.



I think this whole debatte could be used for some study which result is: Nerf a little bit on the glorious, famous and beloved heavies which make up for perhaps less than 10% of all units in game and even less for being used and you get a shitstorm. Buff the 90% of other units which get eaten all day long by the 1%-10% of units and nobody notice it or will care a shit.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think this whole debatte could be used for some study which result is: Nerf a little bit on the glorious, famous and beloved heavies which make up for perhaps less than 10% of all units in game and even less for being used and you get a shitstorm. Buff the 90% of other units which get eaten all day long by the 1%-10% of units and nobody notice it or will care a shit.

Excuse me Hawks, but did you mean the "beloved heavies" that are getting killed by almost everything so far??

Counters for SP;
Def doc 280mm off-map rocket barrage, Shrecks, Nashorn, 210mm Nebel, Henschel patrol, SturmTiger, mines.. etc.

Counters for KT;
Long Tom, Priest, RAF airstrike, Gammon Bombs, Airborne airstrike, AT emplacements, Jacksons, mines.. etc.

Since when heavy tanks are so scary?? You really think that whoever brings a heavy tank is instantly winner?
I don't get why heavy tanks need to be nerfed at all.. when they get smashed every time just like seal butter.

No wonder why you keep repeating that you never deploy anything bigger than Pz4 or Sherman tanks...
Because you know very well that bigger stuff are always easier to kill.. so, tell me; when are heavy tanks supposed to be deployed at all? I'm feeling that you would be so happy to remove heavies entirely from the game.. which unfortunately seems to be gradually happening right now anyways.

Oh and btw, I came to the conclusion that 10 seconds reload time for the KT and SP is a joke, rotten old stupid joke.. specifically that they have got absolutely nothing in return. if u miss 1 time now, then u would need to wait 20 seconds to finally score a hit... That's if u didn't miss again.

Heavy tanks don't justify their cost now, on many aspects.. and for many reasons combined, they just don't.
I think we might need to reduce the prices for ALL heavy tanks in the game this way, cost reduction for every heavy tank.

So I would say it IS quite rare.

I believe you.. but the reality seem to be different, let me throw an example:

My 2 hours 1v1 game with Mr.Nobody from last week, it was on 5.1.4 btw:-

- Tiger1 getting immobilized by M10 AP rounds;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=2779

- M10 (AGAIN) immobilizing Panther.G with AP rounds;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=2965

- 76mm AT gun scoring a "rear hit" at Panther.G from the front and destroying the engine and at long range; (having "butt" on the front ??)
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=3454

- KT immobilized by arty on the 1st hit;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=5335

- Panther's engine destroyed by Bazookas, frontally:
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=5363

- Panther getting immobilized by arty on the first hit (AGAIN):
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=6449

- Panther getting immobilized (ONCE AGAIN) with 1st arty hit:
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=7159

Do you know what does this mean?
ALL MY TANKS DIED WITH IMMOBILIZATION. Literally, almost each and every single one of them... And he didn't even have to use any mines

[Shanks]

I think this whole debatte could be used for some study which result is: Nerf a little bit on the glorious, famous and beloved heavies which make up for perhaps less than 10% of all units in game and even less for being used and you get a shitstorm. Buff the 90% of other units which get eaten all day long by the 1%-10% of units and nobody notice it or will care a shit.

Excuse me Hawks, but did you mean the "beloved heavies" that are getting killed by almost everything so far??

Counters for SP;
Def doc 280mm off-map rocket barrage, Shrecks, Nashorn, 210mm Nebel, Henschel patrol, SturmTiger, mines.. etc.

Counters for KT;
Long Tom, Priest, RAF airstrike, Gammon Bombs, Airborne airstrike, AT emplacements, Jacksons, mines.. etc.

Since when heavy tanks are so scary?? You really think that whoever brings a heavy tank is instantly winner?
I don't get why heavy tanks need to be nerfed at all.. when they get smashed every time just like seal butter.

No wonder why you keep repeating that you never deploy anything bigger than Pz4 or Sherman tanks...
Because you know very well that bigger stuff are always easier to kill.. so, tell me; when are heavy tanks supposed to be deployed at all? I'm feeling that you would be so happy to remove heavies entirely from the game.. which unfortunately seems to be gradually happening right now anyways.

Oh and btw, I came to the conclusion that 10 seconds reload time for the KT and SP is a joke, rotten old stupid joke.. specifically that they have got absolutely nothing in return. if u miss 1 time now, then u would need to wait 20 seconds to finally score a hit... That's if u didn't miss again.

Heavy tanks don't justify their cost now, on many aspects.. and for many reasons combined, they just don't.
I think we might need to reduce the prices for ALL heavy tanks in the game this way, cost reduction for every heavy tank.

you're absolutely right, but hawks seems to play version 4.7, because of the way he talks

[Viper]

So I would say it IS quite rare.

I believe you.. but the reality seem to be different, let me throw an example:

My 2 hours 1v1 game with Mr.Nobody from last week, it was on 5.1.4 btw:-

- Tiger1 getting immobilized by M10 AP rounds;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=2779

- M10 (AGAIN) immobilizing Panther.G with AP rounds;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=2965

- 76mm AT gun scoring a "rear hit" at Panther.G from the front and destroying the engine and at long range; (having "butt" on the front ??)
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=3454

- KT immobilized by arty on the 1st hit;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=5335

- Panther's engine destroyed by Bazookas, frontally:
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=5363

- Panther getting immobilized by arty on the first hit (AGAIN):
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=6449

- Panther getting immobilized (ONCE AGAIN) with 1st arty hit:
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=7159

Do you know what does this mean?
ALL MY TANKS DIED WITH IMMOBILIZATION. Literally, almost each and every single one of them... And he didn't even have to use any mines

immobilized

[Panzerblitz1]

- Tiger1 getting immobilized by M10 AP rounds;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=2779

-->There is 3 Anti tank guns in front your single Tiger I, 2x M10 tank destroyers, 1x 76mm anti tank gun, yes your Tiger got immobilized but with proper support he would have been saved, did you count how many 76mm shells he bounced before getting flanked? no balance breaking here.

- M10 (AGAIN) immobilizing Panther.G with AP rounds;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=2965

-->Yes, but your panther isn't dead and still repear able. no balance breaking here, as you can notice, the U.S. Bazook team shot frontally your Panther (this time really frontally) and got instant rekt, this is for the statement "Panther's engine destroyed by Bazookas, frontally" a little bit more down.

- 76mm AT gun scoring a "rear hit" at Panther.G from the front and destroying the engine and at long range; (having "butt" on the front ??)
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=3454

-->Again 3x AT guns (possible a 4th one who does the rear shot down/left the action) no game breaking here.

- KT immobilized by arty on the 1st hit;
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=5335

-->Again, frankly not a real problem.

- Panther's engine destroyed by Bazookas, frontally:
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=5363

-->No, side/rear shot counted as rear shot by the engine.

- Panther getting immobilized by arty on the first hit (AGAIN):
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=6449

--> yes arty do that and its normal.

- Panther getting immobilized (ONCE AGAIN) with 1st arty hit:
https://youtu.be/1xeh81S-O2Q?t=7159

-->Yes, Arty will do that again not a problem and its absolutely normal even if it sucks.

Do you know what does this mean?
ALL MY TANKS DIED WITH IMMOBILIZATION. Literally, almost each and every single one of them... And he didn't even have to use any mines

-->Arty isn't cheap, it has been nerfed, and its really fine the way it is set currently, if arty can't do minimal damage to medium / heavy units when the shells are falling precisely near tanks, what will be their purpose in game then? dealing damage only on light vehicles and infantry? what happend to you in this game is actually very good, its realistic and its not penalizing too much your play by killing your precious units, his arty shelling was quite precise here, he knows you have units here, he's targetting your tanks, what do you prefer getting blown up in the air by arty shells? or got immobilized with the possibility to repear your unit? if you seat back a bit and take a look at the whole picture, what you just showned is quite normal in combat, and not really a big deal and surelly not game breaking, i bet from his side he was << Damn! again some good arty shells and he just got immobilized, no destruction!>> shit happend.

Why wanting to tweak something who is working super well in game?

[Viper]

have idea.

add new "fix track/repair engine - tool" ability for 40 ammo for all engineers. will take 3 seconds to repair and 10 recharge time.

this way no tweaks will be needed for anything, and they will have some better chance to survive immobilization.

just idea........

[Panzerblitz1]

have idea.

add new "fix track/repair engine - tool" ability for 40 ammo for all engineers. will take 3 seconds to repair and 10 recharge time.

this way no tweaks will be needed for anything, and they will have some better chance to survive immobilization.

just idea........

No, this is the specialty of specialized engineer/mechanic units.