5.1.5 beta v6

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Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 21 Aug 2018, 12:26

Shanks wrote:
MarKr wrote:
Shanks wrote:I think Mark is a hard guy, hahaha, he often does not listen, but he also does it on other occasions, he is guided by the damage system, but having no experience in pvp, he can disagree a lot in his opinion, but sooner or later, it ends up solving the problem, so, 12-8 man, peace
It seems to me that often I hear the "no PvP experience" argument when I keep defending my point of view and people don't know how else to "defend" their point :D. But what can I tell you? The stats I give you are numbers and numbers don't lie. If I say that unit X has 26% penetration chance against unit Y then it is what you get on AVERAGE across all the games people play. This number is not distorted by personal view or feelings from the game. You can always say that "PvP is different because there are lots of other factors" - yes, I know that and one of the most influential factors is skill of a player. If your oponent has noobish skill, then you can destroy his KT with a 57mm AT gun. Does it mean that 57mm AT is OP? It is impossible to take into account the skill of every player when you balance every unit. So what you do is that you take a look at stats of units and compare their chances for a scenario when these two units go against each other 1v1 - the stats will tell you which one has on average the upper hand and the rest that players tell you is a matter of skill and/or luck.



you're right, mathematics is accurate, but the perspective of reality is different :D

Maybe you try to put more arguments in you words, instead of useless crying, then? :D :D :D :D :D

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Shanks
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Shanks » 21 Aug 2018, 12:44

Warhawks97 wrote:The Hetzer arugments became more confusing as markr mentioned. Some say to run away, others bc it is necessary for offense. Personally i used it or abused it in the offense. Sometimes i used two of them and rushing towards, even passing AT guns (or bouncing them) and crushing enemie Priests.

Perhaps some now how careless and aggressive i rushed my Tank IV´s, stugs, Pumas and even schwimmwagens (yes, schwimmwagens are great to defeat ambushed tds like M10). And i did that with Hetzer as well and it worked often better than with any other mentioned unit.
Sometimes i could rush out of ambush using flank speed, killing high value targets like mortar HT´s or recces and retreat back to my ambush position while surviving as well due to armor that managed to bounce of actually all of the 57 mm AT present at that time.

And Hetzer+ 20 mm car works very well. Perhaps first daimler car gets shot by hetzer, problem solved. If not you can make it shoot at hetzer first and then closing in with your 20 mm car using flank speed. From short range it blows up the daimler in a second. Also daimler cars have iirc quite long reload times. Given the damage per pen you still have some time to retreat or to send help to your hetzer. If you fail to back your hetzer and instead relying only on his flank speed alone, well thats your fault then. I barely had to use flank speed for defensive purposes bc the hetzer shred all threats by its own from ambush or i simply placed them smart enough with enough reaction time.

Regarding its armor i would say its pretty realistic. It had strong upper hull with slopped 60 mm armor but a weak lower hull that could be penetrated quite easily. Perhaps the US 76 does perform too well against it but at the other hand the US is a gamble weapon anyway, no matter what target you shoot at. You always go into battle with a 50:50 chance at best.


Regarding the Tiger tank. Perhaps its not feared so much but at the other hand this game provides units that saw action in 44-45, so 2 years after tiger saw action and where allied developed counters.
So whats now. Drop cost? Nah, i dont want Panther to be costing more than a Tiger just bc it performs maybe better than the Tiger. I love that kind of realistic aspect of the game.

What i would do with Tigers:
1. Buff its gun accuracy. Panther has 90% at long and distant range. Tiger 75% like a sherman. Both, Tiger and in particualar the 88 guns were famous for their sniping accuracy. But thats something all 88 guns struggle, even the elephant and jagdpanther.
2. Damage: its damage is 110-140 compared to 100-120 for Panther and 130-160 for US 90 mm gun. Perhaps it could be 120-150.
3. The Ace having ALRS at default perhaps.


I just gave an example with the "daimler", I do not have enough patience to explain its destructive power in detail (better look at my repetitions with the British) ... now, on the other hand, as you said, if you know how care a unit, you also know how to destroy it !, and that you can put into practice with the current hetzer of the two forms, "destroy it or protect it", summarizing ... it does not make sense to make it more vulnerable or less effective to a unit like hetzer, because the FS is not an OP ability, I always respond to your arguments, but you do not respond to mine ... so ... why only take away the flanking speed from the hetzer ??? .... and no to the M10 or Achilles ??? ... do not leave me with the fact that the hetzer is more armored, because it is not a true argument, the TD units of the allies are EQUAL of effective than the current hetzer ..... Finally, I doubt very much that players with a lot of experience "as a gunner", you can enter with a hetzer, and destroy a priest, maybe only to noobs! ... at least, you would not do it easily vs pro players, maybe you can, but it will be very difficult!



@Mr.femi--not'''-'-what a fool, who is crying ?? ... I just want balance, just so that people do not come to mourn for things like, "artillery OP", lol ..... I play with all the troops and doctrines at a good level , so, if the dev do not want to listen , it's fine! ... that will not stop me from kicking asses with the allies or whatever ... yes, asses like yours

Mr. FeministDonut
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 21 Aug 2018, 12:57

>equal TDs in firepower
>M18 sucks even to AA fire and both with M10 are vulnerable to Stugs and Panzer 4
>while Hetzer is barely gets penetrated by 76 without AP rounds investment
EQUAL, REEEEEEEE

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby MarKr » 21 Aug 2018, 13:49

Warhawks97 wrote:What i would do with Tigers:
1. Buff its gun accuracy. Panther has 90% at long and distant range. Tiger 75% like a sherman. Both, Tiger and in particualar the 88 guns were famous for their sniping accuracy. But thats something all 88 guns struggle, even the elephant and jagdpanther.
2. Damage: its damage is 110-140 compared to 100-120 for Panther and 130-160 for US 90 mm gun. Perhaps it could be 120-150.
3. The Ace having ALRS at default perhaps.
Could be.

Shanks wrote:you're right, mathematics is accurate, but the perspective of reality is different :D
Actually looking into the stats gives you this:
images.png
images.png (3.93 KiB) Viewed 420 times
But playing the game influences your perspective and then you are more likely to end up in your example:Image

This is just a side note aimed at everyone: When you react to someone's LONG post and quote them, could you shorten the quote perhaps to the sentence or paragraph you're reacting to? It is not really against anything but it is sort of annoying to read a long post "A" and seeing the following post "B" starting by quoting the entire "A" just react to it with one sentece :D

You will not get punished in any way if you don't follow this request, but it would be nice - the threads would have less pages and it would be easier to search through them. Just saying ;)
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kwok
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby kwok » 21 Aug 2018, 17:42

MarKr wrote:
kwok wrote:Any feedback on wald's suggestion?
Any feedback on my arty comments?
Can the new AT squad camo now? Was that intentional?
I said I have ni problem with Wad's suggestion and asked if anyone is against it. Sofar noone said a word against it so I guess those HE icons can be removed.

about arty: You said "because of the accuracy of particular types of arty" then you mention "Priest and some offmaps". So is it the "shell arty" in general or some specific units and abilities? If it is the latter can you give some list of these units?

Increasing the scatter could be a solution but it goes agains the original thought:
Up till now, arty units with veterancy usually got reduced cooldown on barrages (mostly -5 seconds/level), reduced scatter (so the shots hit more accurately the target area) and some also got faster reloads (which meant the barrage was completed faster). In this beta the general rule is that rocket artillery has bigger spread, no longer reduces spread with vet levels but veterancy reduces the cooldown of barrages. "Shell" artillery gains reduced spread with veterancy but the barrage cooldowns do not get lower. All in all Rocket arty hits bigger area but can shoot more often while "shell" arty can hit more accurately but shoots less often.
So perhaps the scatter reduction per vet level could be lower...

The new AT squad did not receive any camo abilities...did you see them using camo in game? :?

@fronex: don't reopen that discussion, it is draging this thread off-topic. I moved your post to a separate topic here. If you absolutely have to discuss this history of who won what do it there.



Shell arty seems like the main culprit? But I guess I haven't tested enough types of arty to say it's specific. I just found the arty I used to be so accurate that it made the overall arty adjustments an unintended step backwards. I used the priest in game and it was notoriously accurate. I used an offmap and that had a relatively low scatter to begin with since a long time. Didn't know what qualified as a "direct hit" until now it's more obvious a direct hit vs near hit.


Yep, I'll see if I can get waffle to post a replay. We watched the replay together and they went camo for some reason. I was suuuper skeptical too, until he showed me.


Tiger1996 wrote:
kwok wrote:Better to have devs run circles than get tunnel vision.

No surprise that you prefer that.. as you would maybe rather devs to be non-experienced forever so you can easily fill their mind with your agenda(s).

I.... can't really tell... if you are intentionally contradicting in some sort of humoring irony or you just love creating special cases....
Yes... after just talking about how devs not playing pvp makes it harder to make changes because they spend too much time arguing who is right, for some reason i have a special power that lets me skip all the fighting and fill their heads with my agenda... me with me 332 posts on the balance thread which if you look into detail: 50% is just me repeating "play bigger maps" and maybe 25% "play high resources", neither of which are dev related fixes versus 843 posts on the balance thread not including these announcement posts...
are we gonna fight again and both get banned? maybe the forum could use our silence right now.
Last edited by kwok on 21 Aug 2018, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby MarKr » 21 Aug 2018, 17:46

I just checked and they don't have the camo ability. But as you mention it I remeber a rare bug during which I got my 82nd Airborne rangers camoed too. Happened to me about two times. I never found the source nor was I able to intentionally replicate it.
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kwok
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby kwok » 21 Aug 2018, 18:06

Your ability 7 in both the soldier and loader epbs is abilities\ambush_camo_timed_axis_panzerabwehr.lua

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Tiger1996
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Aug 2018, 19:25

kwok wrote:are we gonna fight again and both get banned? maybe the forum could use our silence right now.

It's not like I would bother about getting banned again.. this forum anyway isn't a place that I would like to stay in anymore.. it's almost a place that I completely despise now.. at least as long as MarKr is in the center of development. Thoroughly, I often considered YOU the source of nearly all my problems here.. and ever since the very beginning. Adequately, and just to be frank... I would then be very happy to see you get banned at some point, that would be very satisfying to say the least.
======================================
Mr.FeministDonut wrote:>equal TDs in firepower
>M18 sucks even to AA fire and both with M10 are vulnerable to Stugs and Panzer 4
>while Hetzer is barely gets penetrated by 76 without AP rounds investment

in my humble opinion, i think "armor" isn't really an indication.. for example, Elefant is too heavily armored. Yet, it's one of the easiest targets in the game... So the thing is, M10 Achilles will always be able to protect itself from infantry using HE rounds.. and at the same time quickly escape with flank speed if needed.

Hetzer only had the privilege to escape from infantry using flank speed.. but now, even THAT is being taken away! Hetzer armor won't protect you from Bazookas.

Not saying that it's wrong to remove flank speed from Hetzers.. but I think at least better inf protection is needed then. MarKr had nothing to say about this point until now btw.. except his pity statement about being confused with "mixed info" when BK Champion mentioned it.

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seha
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby seha » 21 Aug 2018, 19:43

Tiger1996 wrote:this forum anyway isn't a place that I would like to stay in anymore.. it's almost a place that I completely despise now.. at least as long as MarKr is in the center of development.

why tiger???? mark said he think flank speed for tigers is not needed and can be removed, and said hold fire can be added, and said ace tiger can have long range ability as default. exactly as you requested. but you still upset ????????

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Aug 2018, 19:51

Tiger1996 wrote:It's not like I would bother about getting banned again.. this forum anyway isn't a place that I would like to stay in anymore.. it's almost a place that I completely despise now.. at least as long as MarKr is in the center of development. Thoroughly, I often considered YOU the source of nearly all my problems here.. and ever since the very beginning. Adequately, and just to be frank... I would then be very happy to see you get banned at some point, that would be very satisfying to say the least.


Come on. Its not that Markr didnt gave arguments why he did something and it wasnt only him that sometimes opposed changes. He doesent deserve such harsh critic. I think he was fair to all of us with a quite objective point of view (bc he didnt play pvp).
I actually cant really believe that its really you saying this.



Tiger1996 wrote:
Mr.FeministDonut wrote:>equal TDs in firepower
>M18 sucks even to AA fire and both with M10 are vulnerable to Stugs and Panzer 4
>while Hetzer is barely gets penetrated by 76 without AP rounds investment

in my humble opinion, i think "armor" isn't really an indication.. for example, Elefant is too heavily armored. Yet, it's one of the easiest targets in the game... So the thing is, M10 Achilles will always be able to protect itself from infantry using HE rounds.. and at the same time quickly escape with flank speed if needed.

Hetzer only had the privilege to escape from infantry using flank speed.. but now, even THAT is being taken away! Hetzer armor won't protect you from Bazookas.


Thats the way it works my friend. Cons and pros. Some units have a balance between all things but arent really master in any category (eg shermans) and others focus on one part (churchills, Elephant) but lacking another one. If there is lots of arty and planes-> try to keep mobile. If there are many guns pointed at you-> Get armor. Elephant and KT will shred all tanks coming at them and surviving the shoot out but wont stand a chance vs planes.
In teamfights one has to compensate the lack for the other.

The Hetzer was in this aspect not only average good in all aspects but very good on all of them. Its armor exist, thats a fact but its weakness is the infantry, so get something to compensate that.

I mean what is it supposed to do? Defending your lines and troops against tanks. And what does it do? Exactly this and the tank does it veeery good with basically guranteed pen (from ambush) against all the common allied tanks and good chances to beat even the bigger one with ambush and AP.
The Basic M10 doesnt do that against quite common tanks in the arsenal that is bigger than a tank IV. I mean the US M10 has a 62% pen chance vs Tank IV H/J from max range and ambush. The US M10 suffered with the standardisation of ambush pen boost the most. The pen dropped from 99% vs Tank IV H down to these 62%. The Hetzer had over 100% pen from ambush before ambush pen boost changes and has thus afterall good 81% pen even against the 76 sherman from max range and basic ammo.

But that doesnt matter right? You guys only see the obvious buffs and nerfs but not how other things have a drastic impact on the game.

Not saying that it's wrong to remove flank speed from Hetzers.. but I think at least better inf protection is needed then. MarKr had nothing to say about this point until now btw.. except his pity statement about being confused with "mixed info" when BK Champion mentioned it.


Perhaps the axis TD can get the suppressive fire ability for the hull MG in all docs and at vet1 as a small compensation?

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Shanks » 21 Aug 2018, 21:17

Warhawks97 wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:It's not like I would bother about getting banned again.. this forum anyway isn't a place that I would like to stay in anymore.. it's almost a place that I completely despise now.. at least as long as MarKr is in the center of development. Thoroughly, I often considered YOU the source of nearly all my problems here.. and ever since the very beginning. Adequately, and just to be frank... I would then be very happy to see you get banned at some point, that would be very satisfying to say the least.


Come on. Its not that Markr didnt gave arguments why he did something and it wasnt only him that sometimes opposed changes. He doesent deserve such harsh critic. I think he was fair to all of us with a quite objective point of view (bc he didnt play pvp).
I actually cant really believe that its really you saying this.



Tiger1996 wrote:
Mr.FeministDonut wrote:>equal TDs in firepower
>M18 sucks even to AA fire and both with M10 are vulnerable to Stugs and Panzer 4
>while Hetzer is barely gets penetrated by 76 without AP rounds investment

in my humble opinion, i think "armor" isn't really an indication.. for example, Elefant is too heavily armored. Yet, it's one of the easiest targets in the game... So the thing is, M10 Achilles will always be able to protect itself from infantry using HE rounds.. and at the same time quickly escape with flank speed if needed.

Hetzer only had the privilege to escape from infantry using flank speed.. but now, even THAT is being taken away! Hetzer armor won't protect you from Bazookas.


Thats the way it works my friend. Cons and pros. Some units have a balance between all things but arent really master in any category (eg shermans) and others focus on one part (churchills, Elephant) but lacking another one. If there is lots of arty and planes-> try to keep mobile. If there are many guns pointed at you-> Get armor. Elephant and KT will shred all tanks coming at them and surviving the shoot out but wont stand a chance vs planes.
In teamfights one has to compensate the lack for the other.

The Hetzer was in this aspect not only average good in all aspects but very good on all of them. Its armor exist, thats a fact but its weakness is the infantry, so get something to compensate that.

I mean what is it supposed to do? Defending your lines and troops against tanks. And what does it do? Exactly this and the tank does it veeery good with basically guranteed pen (from ambush) against all the common allied tanks and good chances to beat even the bigger one with ambush and AP.
The Basic M10 doesnt do that against quite common tanks in the arsenal that is bigger than a tank IV. I mean the US M10 has a 62% pen chance vs Tank IV H/J from max range and ambush. The US M10 suffered with the standardisation of ambush pen boost the most. The pen dropped from 99% vs Tank IV H down to these 62%. The Hetzer had over 100% pen from ambush before ambush pen boost changes and has thus afterall good 81% pen even against the 76 sherman from max range and basic ammo.

But that doesnt matter right? You guys only see the obvious buffs and nerfs but not how other things have a drastic impact on the game.

Not saying that it's wrong to remove flank speed from Hetzers.. but I think at least better inf protection is needed then. MarKr had nothing to say about this point until now btw.. except his pity statement about being confused with "mixed info" when BK Champion mentioned it.


Perhaps the axis TD can get the suppressive fire ability for the hull MG in all docs and at vet1 as a small compensation?


Could you upload some repetitions ??? .... I bored what you write, it would be more interesting to see you fight

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Tiger1996
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 21 Aug 2018, 21:48

seha wrote:
Tiger1996 wrote:this forum anyway isn't a place that I would like to stay in anymore.. it's almost a place that I completely despise now.. at least as long as MarKr is in the center of development.

why tiger???? mark said he think flank speed for tigers is not needed and can be removed, and said hold fire can be added, and said ace tiger can have long range ability as default. exactly as you requested. but you still upset ????????

Well, yes he did.. and I still appreciate how he acknowledged the points... Good for the game then.
However, it's not about him approving my points or not.. me and MarKr seem to have some serious troubles respecting each others!
And this is something that can hardly be solved now, if even at all...

Warhawks97 wrote:Come on. Its not that Markr didnt gave arguments why he did something and it wasnt only him that sometimes opposed changes. He doesent deserve such harsh critic. I think he was fair to all of us with a quite objective point of view (bc he didnt play pvp).
I actually cant really believe that its really you saying this.

I respect your opinion, Hawks. Though, I'm honestly not sure if MarKr was fair or objective...
Anyway, if you really think that MarKr doesn't deserve such harsh critic.. then alright, I'm not going to judge MarKr any further.

Warhawks97 wrote:Perhaps the axis TD can get the suppressive fire ability for the hull MG in all docs and at vet1 as a small compensation?

i would say there can be many solutions.. what you mentioned is probably one of those solutions.
However, I personally think it would be better to improve the stats of the top MG for Hetzers... it's so weak now for some reason.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Aug 2018, 22:20

Shanks wrote:
Could you upload some repetitions ??? .... I bored what you write, it would be more interesting to see you fight


As i told you, i am not playing with my real acc anymore and prefer to keep totally unknown. It fucked me up with all that shit in steam and guys trying to proof something to me while actually just proofing that i was often right (they actually proofed claims with what they did rather than disprooving my claims. It made me laughing often). Also we faced each other already (even with my real name) and it was one of my fastest 4 vs 4 game as ally.

You just dont like facts. When a Hetzer has a chance to be a small fortress and able to stand most or all allied guns but 17pdrs due to its armor it is then a damn fact and something that you have to consider. The downside is that it cant run away as fast as the squishy allied tds. And you ignore that the changes with ambush boosts crippled the US TD´s most as the massive boost made them just good enough to have almost 100% pen in dealing even with tank IV H/J´s. Thus a M10 tag team could deal with any axis medium tank up to tank IV. Now even that became a gamble while hetzer performs still outstanding with shermans while having two ambush shots.

Keep in mind that hetzer has iirc more HP than allied td. Just slightly but if it hasnt changed it can make a huge difference when hit by normal medium guns.

The Hetzer is also hard to hit for most guns. The zooks for example have a normal accuracy of just 45% at max range (45 range) and less vs moving targets. So you just need to get moving in order to have a high chance not to get hit or just once. And one hit can take max half of its HP. The standard zook has even a 20% chance to bounce off from Hetzer. in TH doc this damage gets further reduced by 25%. So you need to trigger two hits with two pens with two times max damage triggered. In TH doc even three times.
Given the numbers this is happening not that often. Or show me pls a game statistic from pvp games that says the opposite. It can happen but often enough you can escape with damage. Given these facts its obvious that you need multiple hendheld AT shooting close range to ensure kill (or simply High vet with M6A3C to have better hit and pen chances. Thats probably what you observe.
The schreck has guranteed pen vs M10/18 and against the M36 even a accuracy boost. The damage is also higher.

So Zooks must pen twice and trigger both times max damage for a kill. Schreck must hit twice and triggering only the average damage (schrecks average damage is above zooks max damage)


Summary:
Schrecks have much better chances to pen and kill a allied td in case they manage to make a shot due to damage and HP differences (and even pen chances when using normal zooks).
In gun combat and tank to tank engagment the hetzer is much much more sturdy.
Hetzer is the better ambusher (esspecially compared to US td)




Warhawks97 wrote:Perhaps the axis TD can get the suppressive fire ability for the hull MG in all docs and at vet1 as a small compensation?


sorry guys, i meant vet 0... or perhaps only for the Hetzer at vet 0 when inf is such a problem.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 21 Aug 2018, 22:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Shanks
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Shanks » 21 Aug 2018, 22:41

Warhawks97 wrote:
Shanks wrote:
Could you upload some repetitions ??? .... I bored what you write, it would be more interesting to see you fight


As i told you, i am not playing with my real acc anymore and prefer to keep totally unknown. It fucked me up with all that shit in steam and guys trying to proof something to me while actually just proofing that i was often right (they actually proofed claims with what they did rather than disprooving my claims. It made me laughing often). Also we faced each other already (even with my real name) and it was one of my fastest 4 vs 4 game as ally.

You just dont like facts. When a Hetzer has a chance to be a small fortress and able to stand most or all allied guns but 17pdrs due to its armor it is then a damn fact and something that you have to consider. The downside is that it cant run away as fast as the squishy allied tds. And you ignore that the changes with ambush boosts crippled the US TD´s most as the massive boost made them just good enough to have almost 100% pen in dealing even with tank IV H/J´s. Thus a M10 tag team could deal with any axis medium tank up to tank IV. Now even that became a gamble while hetzer performs still outstanding with shermans while having two ambush shots.



Warhawks97 wrote:Perhaps the axis TD can get the suppressive fire ability for the hull MG in all docs and at vet1 as a small compensation?


sorry guys, i meant vet 0... or perhaps only for the Hetzer when inf is such a problem.


as long as you do not show me, you play pvp, what you tell me does not make sense ... you play with another account so they do not see you, it's cowardly action!.....I repeat it again, when I lost vs you, you had 3 pro on your side, and I 3 novices, big difference! ... I will not extend games without meaning

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby The New BK Champion » 21 Aug 2018, 22:49

Shanks wrote:
as long as you do not show me, you play pvp, what you tell me does not make sense ... you play with another account so they do not see you, it's cowardly action!.....I repeat it again, when I lost vs you, you had 3 pro on your side, and I 3 novices, big difference! ... I will not extend games without meaning


Warhawks97 wrote:
As i told you, i am not playing with my real acc anymore and prefer to keep totally unknown. It fucked me up with all that shit in steam and guys trying to proof something to me while actually just proofing that i was often right (they actually proofed claims with what they did rather than disprooving my claims. It made me laughing often). Also we faced each other already (even with my real name) and it was one of my fastest 4 vs 4 game as ally.



Hawks stopped playing pvp years ago, because his "smart" tactics that he keep talking about at every occasion doesn't work anywhere outside his own imagination :P. Up to the point where he needed his own version of bk mod...
Don't force it on him though. He is a special snowflake here. Just trying to have fun, like we all do.
Last edited by The New BK Champion on 21 Aug 2018, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Aug 2018, 22:50

cowardly. Lol. Just bc i dont like being seen for very good reasons. You are funny.

Perhaps ive been one of the first guys using the Hetzer as standard pe unit and (i know many will come now to tell me the opposite) believed in hetzers long before anyone realized that those are an option besides frontal rushes with schrecks. I used them even before Hendheld AT changes were made but most adapted first after the change of hendheld AT realizing that frontal rushes arent the best way anymore to deal with tanks. I told others how good they were but it was one of the forgotten and underestimated units. Fuck, i even got hated that i went for hetzers when playing SE or Luft. They told me that i am stupid that i dont insta rush for fallis and wespe (Same btw when i went for nashorn or sabotage squads first).
And the Hetzer did always a huge job, with or without flank speed and the stats havent changed much either. The tank is used extensively in almost every game and is as iconic as Panthers and shermans are. Dont tell me now that this was only bc it has flank speed. Thats just pure bullshit.
And Perhaps you try to proof first how crapy they are and how they get always killed by a simple rush of perhaps two zooks.

I dont have to proof anything when in this matter nothing has changed (cost, HP, pen values, damage).

The New BK Champion wrote:
Hawks stopped playing pvp years ago, because his "smart" tactics that he keep talking about at every occasion doesn't work anywhere outside his own imagination :P. Up to the point where he needed his own version of bk mod...


1. I never said anything about "smart tactics". But when i see a billion times when a guy gets for example shred by a greyhound while having 800 MP in reserve and not a single damn puma out there, well, yes, i tell him it would be smart to better have one. Or when planes are everywhere but they get slow stuff.
Same as a single 20 mm back up vehicle or whatever could solve infantry and daimler headaches.
2. I made that to see whats possible and to get a feeling how proposed changes would work out. But you know whats funny? Lots of changes the new betas contain already existed in my private version. E.g. changed reload times and gun ranges for bigger guns. You simply start to understand in game things better.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 21 Aug 2018, 23:04, edited 3 times in total.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Aug 2018, 23:02

delete pls.

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Shanks
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Shanks » 21 Aug 2018, 23:16

The New BK Champion wrote:
Shanks wrote:
as long as you do not show me, you play pvp, what you tell me does not make sense ... you play with another account so they do not see you, it's cowardly action!.....I repeat it again, when I lost vs you, you had 3 pro on your side, and I 3 novices, big difference! ... I will not extend games without meaning


Warhawks97 wrote:
As i told you, i am not playing with my real acc anymore and prefer to keep totally unknown. It fucked me up with all that shit in steam and guys trying to proof something to me while actually just proofing that i was often right (they actually proofed claims with what they did rather than disprooving my claims. It made me laughing often). Also we faced each other already (even with my real name) and it was one of my fastest 4 vs 4 game as ally.





Hawks stopped playing pvp years ago, because his "smart" tactics that he keep talking about at every occasion doesn't work anywhere outside his own imagination :P. Up to the point where he needed his own version of bk mod...
Don't force it on him though. He is a special snowflake here. Just trying to have fun, like we all do.


totally agree

@hawks-omg, you make me laugh so much! ... you could try the daimler (with the best of cannon) vs your 20 mm (PE), do it first, then come to write here, the rest of what you say is: blah blah blah blah BLA bla



PLAY PVP! and then you can come and talk about the balance, correctly here ...

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Aug 2018, 23:31

Again epic fail. I didnt say to make the daimler shoot your car. I said to wait untill the daimler shot at your hetzer first. Bc thats the issue you talked about. When you use for example an m10 vs Tiger you should try not to get hit by it.

You are too much focused on unit vs unit engagment. Thats your problem. The 20 mm shouldnt get hit by the daimler, yet it can kill it fast.

The 20 mm loses 1 vs 1 against greyhound as well, however, use the fact that 37 mm is likely to fail hitting the moving 20 mm car and then stop to empty a 20 mm round burst from closer range or simply use the superior turret rotation.

Thats off topic now but when i play world of warships the turret rotation does make a huge difference and is part of the "artillery ranking". So if you would lose broadside battle bc of having weaker guns, well use the fact that you can make maneuvers without losing track on target. Thats for example an option how a 20 mm car could beat a greyhound 1 vs 1 even though it would lose a 1 vs 1 from max range.


But i see its pointless to argue with you bc you ignore tips, deny tactical adaption, ignore facts we provided to you and being biased on what you perhaps see from time to time and too much 1 vs 1 focus.

Its the same mess as with churchills vs tank IV´s or what it was and tons of other topics of that kind. They compare 1 vs 1 units/doc and ignore everything arround. The daimler might win 1 vs 1 vs 20 mm but that wasnt my point. But you are too narrowminded to actually understand what my point was. But giving you a hind: Does daimler car provides anti inf capabilties? now. So CW must get own TD to be prepared for your tank attacks (aka hetzer flanking attack), needs a daimler car to deal perhaps with your hetzer (but chance losing it during attempt is present) and car and own inf to handle your infantry. You just need a hetzer and a 20 mm car to have all these capabilities.
But i know, that doesnt matter for you. You are the master godlord ace who doesnt need arguments or facts.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 21 Aug 2018, 23:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Henny
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Henny » 21 Aug 2018, 23:43

In my opinion if you remove the flank speed from Hetzer you must remove the flank speed from the cromwell aswell
Watman and Autraymond have left the game.

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Shanks
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Shanks » 22 Aug 2018, 00:17

Warhawks97 wrote:Again epic fail. I didnt say to make the daimler shoot your car. I said to wait untill the daimler shot at your hetzer first. Bc thats the issue you talked about. When you use for example an m10 vs Tiger you should try not to get hit by it.

You are too much focused on unit vs unit engagment. Thats your problem. The 20 mm shouldnt get hit by the daimler, yet it can kill it fast.

The 20 mm loses 1 vs 1 against greyhound as well, however, use the fact that 37 mm is likely to fail hitting the moving 20 mm car and then stop to empty a 20 mm round burst from closer range or simply use the superior turret rotation.

Thats off topic now but when i play world of warships the turret rotation does make a huge difference and is part of the "artillery ranking". So if you would lose broadside battle bc of having weaker guns, well use the fact that you can make maneuvers without losing track on target. Thats for example an option how a 20 mm car could beat a greyhound 1 vs 1 even though it would lose a 1 vs 1 from max range.


But i see its pointless to argue with you bc you ignore tips, deny tactical adaption, ignore facts we provided to you and being biased on what you perhaps see from time to time and too much 1 vs 1 focus.

Its the same mess as with churchills vs tank IV´s or what it was and tons of other topics of that kind. They compare 1 vs 1 units/doc and ignore everything arround. The daimler might win 1 vs 1 vs 20 mm but that wasnt my point. But you are too narrowminded to actually understand what my point was. But giving you a hind: Does daimler car provides anti inf capabilties? now. So CW must get own TD to be prepared for your tank attacks (aka hetzer flanking attack), needs a daimler car to deal perhaps with your hetzer (but chance losing it during attempt is present) and car and own inf to handle your infantry. You just need a hetzer and a 20 mm car to have all these capabilities.
But i know, that doesnt matter for you. You are the master godlord ace who doesnt need arguments or facts.


i do clarify as 120000000 times, that the daimler was an example !, i dont told you what strategy I use to destroy units with the "daimler", perhaps it is the only AT tool ???? ... then you speak that I compare 1v1 units, Is not it the same as you do ??? .. "The hetzer has this and this, the M10 this and this, the Achilles this and this", at least you have to read what I write, before giving an answer
I speak of the hetzer more than anything, and you deviate the subject

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Aug 2018, 01:57

Btw the top gunner mg of the 76w looks all purpple for me, like it were missing the texture idk.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Aug 2018, 02:52

Warhawks97 wrote: I made that to see whats possible and to get a feeling how proposed changes would work out. But you know whats funny? Lots of changes the new betas contain already existed in my private version. E.g. changed reload times and gun ranges for bigger guns. You simply start to understand in game things better.


¿Hey war where can i get your mod? I wanna try it.

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Tiger1996
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Aug 2018, 10:00

Henny wrote:In my opinion if you remove the flank speed from Hetzer you must remove the flank speed from the cromwell aswell

Actually another good point there. I have always wondered why the 3rd CW truck doesn't require Captain first...
This allows British players to bring Cromwells too early into the game, almost sometimes as soon as Puma specifically in high resources games.
Hetzers were the only true Axis counterpart to racing Cromwells, because flank speed for Hetzers allowed them to chase Cromwells.
Now I have no idea how Cromwells are going to be hunted at all.. just too fast to be caught! The only chance would be if the British player pays no attention to his Cromwell.. or drives it into ambush unwillingly, the Axis player can only be relying on his opponent mistakes at this point.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Aug 2018, 10:38

Shanks wrote:i do clarify as 120000000 times, that the daimler was an example !, i dont told you what strategy I use to destroy units with the "daimler", perhaps it is the only AT tool ???? ... then you speak that I compare 1v1 units, Is not it the same as you do ??? .. "The hetzer has this and this, the M10 this and this, the Achilles this and this", at least you have to read what I write, before giving an answer
I speak of the hetzer more than anything, and you deviate the subject



Well, i compare strenght and weakness units in the same role have. Comparing a TD with another. And here Hetzer holds the HP, armor, received accuracy and amount of ambush shots advantage (+ being clearly more powerfull as the US M10 when it comes to destroying common targets due to the ambush pen boost changes that hurt US most). The M10´s do only have speed and the CW one an HE shot. But the CW faction is far less multirole options and its inf isnt such a good support for tanks like PE inf is (simply bc of advanced rep everywhere and much better durability and versatility)

You come up with 1 vs 1 engagments. You had issues with daimler flanking your hetzer and infantry, i told you what could possibly help. But you turned it again into a 1 vs 1 scenario daimler vs 20 mm and i just told you the cons and pros of each unit and for what they can be used. For me it seems that the game stands still and that each side sends one monster into the field against another one in 1 vs 1 like in a pokemon game.
I just told you how i protect slow units against small mobile units and infantry.

And btw. What do you think about the Jagdpanzer IV/48 which gets replaced by hetzer in the reward menu? It uses the same TT as hetzer just with slightly better armor. Instead of 46% chance to bounce 76 guns it has a 52% chance to do so and M6A3C zooks have instead a 100% pen chance only a 90% chance to pen. It costs more and has no top mounted MG. It has 650 HP instead of 600 as hetzer has but in general it has the same weakness. Three zooks that pen would likely kill both while two zooks would perhaps kill a Hetzer only with luck triggering both times max damage.
The IV/48 costs more but holds apparently no real advantage or has at least the same problems. Why dont you propose anything for that tank which costs even more than a Hetzer? Not important right? You didnt have that unit on your screen at all. The Hetzer was simply better which isnt what "reward" units are supposed to be. You trade certain cons on pros. In this case the JP IV/48 was supposed to have actually better survivability due to slightly better armor and HP for slightly higher cost. But the flank speed totally neglected this aspect because the mobility with flank speed made the Hetzer surviving much longer on the field than the armor and HP on the IV/48, plus it gave the Hetzer even much better offensive capabilties and a better versatility in general ....for cheaper cost.

I´d like to hear your unfailable minds to this matter. I think that the IV/48 gets back its reason of existence as reward unit (basically the hetzer is the reward unit, i know). Trading better survivability with cost instead of trading a piece of shit with a super effective and versatile unit.

mofetagalactica wrote:¿Hey war where can i get your mod? I wanna try it.


I am actually not allowed to share it and only a very few of my closest mates have access to it. Unfortunately i hadnt any time recently (since February i hadnt much time) to work on it so it runs on 5.14 version. However arty changes (at least ranges and reduced scatter removal from rocket arty vet) got implemented as well as the current gun changes (ranges, reload times) and some other stuff. It is quite different in many aspects (eg cost ratio between infantry/wepon crews and Tanks/arty) and PE is more or less completely different. But i would have to update it first to be compatibel with latest versions. I can let you know when i got the time for it but you wouldnt be allowed to share it with anyone.

You can pm me for more infos in steam.


Tiger1996 wrote:
Henny wrote:In my opinion if you remove the flank speed from Hetzer you must remove the flank speed from the cromwell aswell


Hetzers were the only true Axis counterpart to racing Cromwells, because flank speed for Hetzers allowed them to chase Cromwells.
Now I have no idea how Cromwells are going to be hunted at all.. just too fast to be caught! The only chance would be if the British player pays no attention to his Cromwell.. or drives it into ambush unwillingly, the Axis player can only be relying on his opponent mistakes at this point.


perhaps you cant chase it accross the map but cruisers are meant to be fast. But just bc you cant hunt something it doesnt mean there is no protection. Its not like the old OP comet combining Pershing armor with cromwell speed and Panther gun.
Pretty much anything can pen it, even the 28 mm guns. So there is a protection against it and the cromwell cant stop your units in case you want to attack. Running only away doesnt make you win a game.

But in this case it follows the same logic. The cromwell would never be able to face a Hetzer unless it has the chance to circle arround or to be simply faster in movment. And whenever a cromwell makes a dance with your mortar HT it becomes automatically vulnerable to possibly hidden Hetzers and 50 mm guns. So using cromwells is always a risk to run into an ambush. The other option is not to attack and to just run away all the time.


Tiger1996 wrote:I have always wondered why the 3rd CW truck doesn't require Captain first...
This allows British players to bring Cromwells too early into the game, almost sometimes as soon as Puma specifically in high resources games.


I think thats in order to bring come versatility. I do like that system and would like to see it more often. The tec lines are often very straight. Only US has one option to either make tank depot first but then having still no access to anything better than regular shermans unltill the supply yard is up.
On axis side there could be something similar. Like you could get your medium tank factory after first HQ upgrade and having only stugs and stubby tank IV availbale but while the second HQ upgrade unlocks long barreld tank IV´s. Just as an example.
I like versatile tec lines like that one.


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