5.1.5 beta v6

[Panzerblitz1]

- Implemented new textures for most tanks of Allies (Sherman variations, Cromwells, M10s, Jacksons...Thanks to JustForFun1 for all the work)

The 76 Sherman is bugged in the beta. The top gunner is a generic rifleman with a faulty texture. The rest of the Shermans have the correct gunner and in current 5.1.4, the 76 Sherman has the same gunner as the other Shermans.

Are you sure about that?
I don't have this problem, if "Generic riflemen with a faulty texture" means a black soldier with a rifleman outfit, then it is not a bug and is the accurate Sherman M4A3 (76)w tank gunner.

[Panzerblitz1]

Super Pershing has the same issue I guess... Static gunner and a "flying" 50.cal without any piece of metal holding it. Not sure if this has always been the case or just due to the new textures. Also, gunner can shoot backward but appears looking always at the front

The Super Pershing model never had a gun mount for his 50 caliber turret Mg, the fire Fx of the Mg's is now fixed.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright.. that's great, thanks!
Really nice new skins btw.

I hope MarKr listens to what we say though.
Didn't mean to bash on him.. but i just got a bit mad :/
Hopefully he acknowledges my point regarding flank speed on Tigers and hold fire ability for heavy tanks.

Hetzer flank speed removal is very controversial apparently.

[MarKr]

@Shanks: The expert repairs gives you extra HP which allows you survive penetrative hits. But still - the extra HP only matters if a shot penetrates. Given the fact that Hetzer has stronger armor than M10, M10 will get penetrated more often and so it relies more on its HP while Hetzer can rely more on its armor.

Then you say that the special shot of US M10 is great. As I said, the Hetzer has a similar ability. It some kind of HEAT shot with limited range but buffed penetration (so it works similarly to M10 ability). The describtion says that it can "penetrate 100mm of steel but has limited range" - the strongest armor Allies had was about 115mm on certain parts of certain tanks, so the shot should have quite good chance (not guarantee, but about 80%) to penetrate anything on the side of Allies, if it is not the case then it can be fixed.
Then you speak about Hetzer armor being weak, specifically that 6pounders/57mm guns are very effective against Hetzers. Here are penetration chances of various guns vs Hetzers at each range:

Spoiler: show

57m AT guns/ 6pounders:
37.5%/27.6%/24/21% (rear pen. guaranteed)

75mm Sherman:
42.8%/35.5%/27.4%/21% (rear pen. guaranteed)

75mm Churchill
50%/35%/28.5%/21.5% (rear pen. guaranteed)

76mm Sherman:
100%/84%/67%/54% (rear pen. guaranteed)

Daimler (2pounder)
10%/7.3%/5.4%/3.8%
rear:
60%/43.8%/32.4%/22.8%

Daimler Littlejohn:
30%/27.6%/24%/21% (rear pen. guaranteed)

On the other hand Hetzer gun vs these targets (chance multiplicatively increased by 25% when shooting from camo):

Spoiler: show

M4 Sherman:
130%/96.6%/86.1%/76.6%
76(W) Sherman:
110%/82%/73.1%/65.1%
These tanks are higher tier than what Hetzer is meant to counter:
Jumbo:
42.7%/31.4%/28%/24.9%
Churchill:
24.2%/17.8%/15.8%/14.1%
rear:
77%/56.6%/50.3%/44.8%
Pershing:
34.25%/25.2%/22.4%/20%
137%/100%/89.8%/80%

Considering that Axis docs have stronger tanks or outright tankhunters to take down heavy tanks of Allies, the Hetzer has quite good stats against heavies too. Yes, Hetzer has no turret, on the other hand US M10 has very slow turret rotation so it is generaly better manualy turn the whole unit because it is faster. CW M10 got reduced turret rotation in 5.1.4 iirc. It is still about 50% faster than US M10 though. Realistically Achilles would have just as slow turret as Wolverine but when we dicussed the turret rotation change for Achilles I got overruled and so it was lowered by half way, not to the same level ov Wolverine.

Yes, Hetzer is currently the only Axis TD with which you can "rely on fast attack" but here it comes back to "Hetzer has everything" - as you said Allies have Cromwell, M18 and M10 which can quickly move around but all of these have low armor (in case of Cromwell also quite weak gun) so the ability to quickly escape is what can keep them alive. Hetzer has the armor as I described above and so why should it have good gun, good armor and also speed?

I know that people got used to its current setup because it is versatile but just because Hetzer got these stats years ago, does it mean it needs keep its "privileged" combination of medium tier TD with good firepower, speed and armor while other TDs in same category have a weakness in one of these aspects?

[mofetagalactica]

? No stats againt's E8's ? What are E8's btw all this time they seem to have the same armor than 76w even when in the description it says that has better armor than the 76w. Do they even worth the price/upkeep or making them compared to making 76w?

[MarKr]

I'm no longer at my laptop so I cannot tell you exact numbers but it is true that E8 has a bit better armor but it is by about 5% if I remember corectly. E8, however, has bettee accuracy when shooting on the move and also a bit better speed. I don't know from the top of my head the upkeeps, it is possible that stats-wise it has some more advantages over normal 76mm Shermans.

[COLDMORN]

The new Elefant doesn't seem to have the same smoke effects that other tanks have when firing.
Bit of a pet peeve of mine.

[Panzerblitz1]

The new Elefant doesn't seem to have the same smoke effects that other tanks have when firing.
Bit of a pet peeve of mine.

Does it matter?

[mofetagalactica]

Btw there is something that can be done to avoid crashing planes to make damage to buildings? 'cause it may be the new tactic that some players are adopting to just send recon planes into the enemy base every time they have it since if AA destroys it and the planes fall down on abuilding it will one shot it lol.

[drivebyhobo]

f "Generic riflemen with a faulty texture" means a black soldier.

It looked to me as some kind of broken shadow effect. If you look at the soldier, the color of the hands don't match the face and he has blue eyes which also doesn't match up.

then it is not a bug and is the accurate Sherman M4A3 (76)w tank gunner

Okay, if it is not a bug, then it's an anachronism. A Rifleman should not be the gunner, it should be a tank crewman, as it is on the other Shermans and in current 5.1.4.

[Shanks]

@Shanks: The expert repairs gives you extra HP which allows you survive penetrative hits. But still - the extra HP only matters if a shot penetrates. Given the fact that Hetzer has stronger armor than M10, M10 will get penetrated more often and so it relies more on its HP while Hetzer can rely more on its armor.

Then you say that the special shot of US M10 is great. As I said, the Hetzer has a similar ability. It some kind of HEAT shot with limited range but buffed penetration (so it works similarly to M10 ability). The describtion says that it can "penetrate 100mm of steel but has limited range" - the strongest armor Allies had was about 115mm on certain parts of certain tanks, so the shot should have quite good chance (not guarantee, but about 80%) to penetrate anything on the side of Allies, if it is not the case then it can be fixed.
Then you speak about Hetzer armor being weak, specifically that 6pounders/57mm guns are very effective against Hetzers. Here are penetration chances of various guns vs Hetzers at each range:

Spoiler: show

57m AT guns/ 6pounders:
37.5%/27.6%/24/21% (rear pen. guaranteed)

75mm Sherman:
42.8%/35.5%/27.4%/21% (rear pen. guaranteed)

75mm Churchill
50%/35%/28.5%/21.5% (rear pen. guaranteed)

76mm Sherman:
100%/84%/67%/54% (rear pen. guaranteed)

Daimler (2pounder)
10%/7.3%/5.4%/3.8%
rear:
60%/43.8%/32.4%/22.8%

Daimler Littlejohn:
30%/27.6%/24%/21% (rear pen. guaranteed)

On the other hand Hetzer gun vs these targets (chance multiplicatively increased by 25% when shooting from camo):

Spoiler: show

M4 Sherman:
130%/96.6%/86.1%/76.6%
76(W) Sherman:
110%/82%/73.1%/65.1%
These tanks are higher tier than what Hetzer is meant to counter:
Jumbo:
42.7%/31.4%/28%/24.9%
Churchill:
24.2%/17.8%/15.8%/14.1%
rear:
77%/56.6%/50.3%/44.8%
Pershing:
34.25%/25.2%/22.4%/20%
137%/100%/89.8%/80%

Considering that Axis docs have stronger tanks or outright tankhunters to take down heavy tanks of Allies, the Hetzer has quite good stats against heavies too. Yes, Hetzer has no turret, on the other hand US M10 has very slow turret rotation so it is generaly better manualy turn the whole unit because it is faster. CW M10 got reduced turret rotation in 5.1.4 iirc. It is still about 50% faster than US M10 though. Realistically Achilles would have just as slow turret as Wolverine but when we dicussed the turret rotation change for Achilles I got overruled and so it was lowered by half way, not to the same level ov Wolverine.

Yes, Hetzer is currently the only Axis TD with which you can "rely on fast attack" but here it comes back to "Hetzer has everything" - as you said Allies have Cromwell, M18 and M10 which can quickly move around but all of these have low armor (in case of Cromwell also quite weak gun) so the ability to quickly escape is what can keep them alive. Hetzer has the armor as I described above and so why should it have good gun, good armor and also speed?

I know that people got used to its current setup because it is versatile but just because Hetzer got these stats years ago, does it mean it needs keep its "privileged" combination of medium tier TD with good firepower, speed and armor while other TDs in same category have a weakness in one of these aspects?

Do you think that the current hetzer is indestructible ??... as soon as you have a hetzer, the allies could have M10 and Achilles (in mixed teams: USA + British vs. PE + WM), which means greater mobility for the allies.... the problem with you, is that it does not really measure the damage that this change causes in pvp, there are many factors to take into account when you speak of a unit, for example;certainly the M10 and the Achilles do not have a great shield, but if you are a good player, they manage to cause a GREAT damage to the axis ... now ..... which units can destroy a hetzer in flanking speed?the answer is simple, almost all AT weapons, for example: M10, Achilles, AT squadron, 76mm Sherman, Arty, etc etc etc, in the more than 1500 hours of game that I have, I always knew how to fight vs hetzer,is not anything otherworldly ... why do they complain ????... the real objective of the speed of flanking, is not to ESCAPE, on the contrary, it is for NOT TO LEAVE ESCAPE AN ENEMY UNIT, and if you take away this ability , would really be a tragedy for the axis ...do you want me to upload repetitions of how to destroy a hetzer in 1 min?, or in what way do you want me to tell you that this is a big mistake?... you could see the last repetition that i up??.. you could see clearly how the hetzer is not a unit "without any weakness", there are practically several ways to destroy a unit in the game ... perhaps this change is because someone in discord (noobs) complained of the hetzer ???, if it is for this reason, it is unfortunate .... you say "it's an experimental change", but when you write it sounds like, "it's a definite change"....


Note: It is not necessary that you answer, but I ask you to read what I wrote, and to think about it please ... in general they are doing a great job for the mod, it is respectable, thanks

[mofetagalactica]

Shanks, for good shake the germans didn't had any fast tank in their arsenal the faster one they had was the panther. They just didn't rely on speedy ferraris at all. Faster tanks ever in ww2 where:
Hellcat: 88km/h street - off road around 45 km/h
M3 Stuart: 58km/h
M24 Chaffee: 56km/h on road, 40km/h off road
Panzer V Panther: 55km/h on road, 46km/h off road (which make it one of the fastest off road tanks in WW2)
T-34: 53km/h on road, 40km/h off road
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tiger speed:
Maximum, road: 45.4 km/h (28.2 mph)[8]
Sustained, road: 40 km/h (25 mph)[4]
Cross country: 20–25 km/h (12–16 mph)[4]


--------------------------------------------------------
M10 17pdr and USA one.

Speed M10: 25–30 mph (40–51 km/h) on road
M10A1: 30 mph (51 km/h) on road



If you want to complain about flank speed you could always protest for panthers/stuarts/chaffes/hellcats for not having such hability.

[Shanks]

Shanks, for good shake the germans didn't had any fast tank in their arsenal the faster one they had was the panther. They just didn't rely on speedy ferraris at all. Faster tanks ever in ww2 where:
Hellcat: 88km/h street - off road around 45 km/h
M3 Stuart: 58km/h
M24 Chaffee: 56km/h on road, 40km/h off road
Panzer V Panther: 55km/h on road, 46km/h off road (which make it one of the fastest off road tanks in WW2)
T-34: 53km/h on road, 40km/h off road

If you want to complain about flank speed you could always protest for panthers/stuarts/chaffes/hellcats for not having such hability.

friend, if you are too realistic in a game about the Second World War, or rather, in this game ... then you already know the result, the axis loses

[mofetagalactica]

friend, if you are too realistic in a game about the Second World War, or rather, in this game ... then you already know the result, the axis loses

Im not going for something 100% realistic but you can't neither have flying panzers in a ww2 game. If you pay some attention to what mark showed you about his pen stats and armor, you will maybe notice something fishy going on for a mid-tier tank.

And by the way regarding the APHE shoot of the M10 that you're talking so much about it cost a lot of ammo, plus being able to shoot it its really hard because the cannon rotation is super slow and it takes a few moments to aim and shoot, while the other guy will just blow up your m10 with 1 shoot, the only way to actually use this hability its to have 2 m10s or somekind of distraction, and even if you use it it dosn't blow up the enemy tank with 1 shoot it just secures a pen.

Mark please check my post a little more up regarding plane crashing into base.

[Krieger Blitzer]

If you want to complain about flank speed you could always protest for panthers/stuarts/chaffes/hellcats for not having such hability.

Or.. what is even better, is that he can protest why Tigers still have flank speed




Tomorrow we can hear about Elefants and Churchills with flank speed.. because why not! And then MarKr will come up with whatever "logic" that he just made up.. and then he tells you that "not everything is mean to be the same" also he might say that "things are intended this way" and then here you go... Welcome to MarKr's version of Bk Mod, a version from the moon.. where life does not exist.


I just want to say that it's not a matter of flank speed would stay on Hetzers or not.. but more a matter of the corrupted logic behind it.

[mofetagalactica]

If you want to complain about flank speed you could always protest for panthers/stuarts/chaffes/hellcats for not having such hability.

Or.. what is even better, is that he can protest why Tigers still have flank speed




Tomorrow we can hear about Elefants and Churchills with flank speed.. because why not! And then MarKr will come up with whatever "logic" that he just made up.. and then he tells you that "not everything is mean to be the same" also he might say that "things are intended this way" and then here you go... Welcome to MarKr's version of Bk Mod, a version from the moon.. where life does not exist.


I just want to say that it's not a matter of flank speed would stay on Hetzers or not.. but more a matter of the corrupted logic behind it.

The only logic i see behind it its how expensive the unit is, so since it uses 170 fuel lets just add magic powers into it like it used to happen with the comet.

[Panzerblitz1]

f "Generic riflemen with a faulty texture" means a black soldier.

It looked to me as some kind of broken shadow effect. If you look at the soldier, the color of the hands don't match the face and he has blue eyes which also doesn't match up.

then it is not a bug and is the accurate Sherman M4A3 (76)w tank gunner

Okay, if it is not a bug, then it's an anachronism. A Rifleman should not be the gunner, it should be a tank crewman, as it is on the other Shermans and in current 5.1.4.

All wrong, Black people can have blue eyes, green eyes, dark and black eyes, why the riflemen can't be the gunner? it is a tank man indeed, the Black panther Bn. didn't had such equipements reserved to white people, and so they were using the "regular" infantry gear, so it is correct in that case, the hand is perfectly fine as well, its normal to have a darker face with the helmet shadow on the picture, especially on certain light condition, like the one you took, we aren't gonna rework that, it isn't our work, and we find it perfect and historicaly accurate the way it is.

[Walderschmidt]

Please please please make it so that nobody can see if a tank is using HE shells or not. Or AP.

Information asymetry is good.

Wald

[drivebyhobo]

we find it perfect and historicaly accurate the way it is.

Much in the same way that EA and Activision find COD WW2, Battlefield V, and Battlefield 1 to be perfect and historically accurate. Will you be adding female soldiers with robotic arms next (as in Battlefield V), so that you can attract that particular audience?

Black people can have blue eyes, green eyes, dark and black eyes

A very rare genetic trait among Africans, much in the way that albinism is. Speaking of albinism, Africans that are albino are not indistinguishable from Europeans.


That is the problem with your depiction of a black soldier. You simply cannot take a model of white soldier and put on a black soldier's face texture. It looks as if a white soldier put on blackface paint and in fact, that is a cultural practice that is considered to be offensive in modern times. It can be construed that you are actively mocking the black panther battalion by essentially representing them with white soldiers in blackface.

the Black panther Bn. didn't had such equipements reserved to white people, and so they were using the "regular" infantry gear, so it is correct

If it is intended to have the Black Panther Battalion represented, then many if not all US soldiers would need to be replaced with black soldiers since they only served in all black units. So the overall picture is not correct.

we aren't gonna rework that, it isn't our work

I assume that since you are so committed to diversity, that all possible efforts will be made to expand diversity to the Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite. It hardly seems fair to leave them out.

P.S.
Based on the photo I posted, I would think you would be very eager to liven up the Volksgrenadier and Grenadier squads with some new faces in 5.1.6.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Man, no one cares about the color of the soldier.. well, unless they are pink

[Panzerblitz1]

What is your point? tell me? are you accusing me of something here? is it that disturbing to have a black gunner? are you really going to make a wall text of argumentation because of the way that model has been made? we have a Super Pershing with a flying Cal 50. MG, is it a big deal? we are creating new contents with the tools we have, im just simply telling you that we like it the way it is, and we are keeping it, i will not argue with that non important matter regarding the Sherman 76mm gunner model, or Blue eyes on Black people, its silly, im sorry but i won't.

EDIT: you should watch out before accusing me to make fun of those black soldiers from the Black panther Bn, the creator of this new content did it to pay some respect of those brave mens, not to make fun of them.

[drivebyhobo]

we are creating new contents with the tools we have,

New content is great but this is not new content. The fact is, the new 76 Sherman gunner is Relic's 3d model of the Rifleman, with certain parts of its diffuse map darkened.

I would think that you would only want the best quality content in the mod. This one particular piece of content really does not fit. It would be more appropriate as placeholder content for a mod made for game like Steel Division where the game is focused on representing specific units at specific places.

EDIT: you should watch out before accusing me to make fun of those black soldiers from the Black panther Bn, the creator of this new content did it to pay some respect of those brave mens.

An author's intent often has little to do with how it is received. True of any art form.

But if you're so concerned with the men from the Black Panther btn, they why are you so unconcerned with the African and Asian soldiers of the Wehrmacht?

[MarKr]

Do you think that the current hetzer is indestructible ??...

I never said that Hetzer is indestructible. I am just saying that Hetzer is not as vulnerable as you described it (check the pen. numbers I posted) and I am saying that all other tank destroyers/tank hunters of the same tier have either good mobility and weak armor or better armor but limited mobility, Hetzer has good armor and good mobility.

This is just a simple diagram I made but it ilustrates what I mean - hetzer has those 3 colums most even while the others have at least one significantly lower than others. This is what I mean by "it has no weakness" - it does not follow the pattern. It seems to me that Flank speed was given to Hetzer only to make the unit more different from its reward unit, JPIV, because without it the units are pretty much the same.

But now you said this

the real objective of the speed of flanking, is not to ESCAPE, on the contrary, it is for NOT TO LEAVE ESCAPE AN ENEMY UNIT

OK, so you want to keep the ability because it can secure kills - if opponent survives the shot and tries to retreat, you activate flank speed, catch up and destroy it. The M10s/M18s can do that but they are risking getting destroyed because if they chase target this way and they run into another untit, they either need to take the chance and risk getting killed (due to their weak armor), or they need to stop the chase. Hetzer has the armor so it can afford chase the unit with much less risk.

And yes, I said it is experimental change. If people in general were against it, then it would get removed but sofar you are against it, mofeta is for it, New BK Champion did not really say he's for it but from the post he made it seems he's not against it, Hawks supports it too. seha supports your side, maybe someone else I missed, too...it is simply not rejected by majority of comments here. If we were to revert every change that has at least some opposition, no change ever would stick around.

Btw there is something that can be done to avoid crashing planes to make damage to buildings?

Well, it could be changed but it seems unlikely to me that someone would intentionally send planes only to get shot down (which is not guaranteed) and then prey to RNG that the plane actually hits a building (which is also not guaranteed). I mean it is surely possible to try such "tactics" but I doubt it would have major success.

Please please please make it so that nobody can see if a tank is using HE shells or not. Or AP.

This could be done...is anyone against it?

@drivebyhobo: The model was offered to us like this and we considered it a nice addtion. We are not returning the model to the creator to remake a gunner model to make it...I don't even know what you're getting at here...to make the model have more afroamerican facial features? There is no reason for it. The model works and reworking it for such a small detail is really pointless. It is supposed to represent black soldiers from the US tank battalions and it does that.

[drivebyhobo]

@drivebyhobo: I don't even know what you're getting at here. It is supposed to represent black soldiers from the US tank battalions and it does that.

My point is that the mod is unwisely wadding into political correctness for the sake of a single model. It's distorting what the real forces looked like for the overwhelmingly majority (90%+, more for combat forces) with the balance separated into specific units.

Additionally, it breaks consistency with the rest of the mod. All the other US tanks with visible crew have their crew wearing 3rd Armored Division uniforms. The Sherman 76 in 5.1.4 also has a gunner with a 3rd Armored Division uniform.

is it that disturbing to have a black gunner?

Would you be disturbed if Volksgrenadiers and Grenadiers squads were replaced by a diverse assortment of people? I would be disturbed because, it is no longer a representative sample of the overall forces.

There were Asian soldiers fighting for the Wehrmacht in and around Normandy. Similarly, there were African soldiers in the US Army, but just like those Asian soldiers, they were a very small minority (African-Americans were ~10% of the US population at the time) and placed into separate units. Is it so wrong that I think the mod should avoid the politics of that, as Relic wisely decided to do in both Company Of Heroes 1 and 2?

[Viper]

And yes, I said it is experimental change. If people in general were against it, then it would get removed but sofar you are against it, mofeta is for it, New BK Champion did not really say he's for it but from the post he made it seems he's not against it, Hawks supports it too. seha supports your side, maybe someone else I missed, too...it is simply not rejected by majority of comments here. If we were to revert every change that has at least some opposition, no change ever would stick around.

truth is, i don't care too much. but i think majority are against it. or at least against the interval logic coming from it.
are there some posts you cant see? seems you are missing too much. even people who support the change still questioned how other tanks can keep the flank speed but not hetzer. that's why when Tiger posted about removal of flank speed from tiger tanks for adding hold fire, people agreed.
do you only see what you want to see and discard everything else?