Docs Rework [Perspective]

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Tiger1996
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Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Tiger1996 » 04 May 2018, 06:24

Throughout this topic, I would like to represent my personal point of view regarding how doctrines could be reworked.. just my perspective.
So, in case somebody has a different point of view.. then please feel free to represent yours, without having to argue about other viewpoints.

Providing our point of view can help the devs to determine how things could be done, they could take very different ideas and combine them together... And in case u fully support my point of view, then plz go ahead and express urself.

My point of view is focused more on some Axis doctrines.. beside some changes to few Allied docs too.
However, I don't think all Axis doctrines need a rework; but only some of them.

With that being said, the following is my point of view... Here are the big changes I have been thinking about:

# Axis

- Stug4 tank would be no longer available in all WH docs, but only in Terror doctrine... As consequence, the Stug4 would be able to camo straight away, without first needing 1 veterancy level anymore.. and being available only in Terror doctrine, means that the Stug4 would need a doctrinal unlock.. there is going to be a screenshot of the new Terror doc attached below.

- And thus, Stug3 would be no longer in reward menu but only available in Blitz doc by default without any unlock.. and this means that Blitz doc would no longer have access to Stug4 tanks except the "late version" which randomly spawns purely based on "luck" by the off-map support call-in.

- SturmTiger would be removed from Terror doctrine and added to Def doctrine, and this would be done by adding it to the customize reward menu as replacement of the Grille.. meaning that the Stupa would be no longer a replacement to the Grille. Def doc player will have to decide whether to choose between the Grille or the SturmTiger which are both arty units. And so far this makes a lot more sense in comparison to Stupa and Grille currently because the Stupa is rather an offensive unit and thus it doesn't really fit in Def doctrine.

Though, it's worth to notify that adding SturmTiger together with the Grille in the same unlock.. means that the SturmTiger would be 1 command point earlier available.. because currently in Terror doc, the SturmTiger requires 7 direct command points.. while the Grille requires 6 command points. Eventually, the SturmTiger could have less gun range (from 200 to 120) and in return, it would no longer require view in order to fire.
It could also become slightly more expensive (from 700 to 900 MP) that's in addition to adding some minimum range...

- Stupa would be a reward of the Stuh in Blitz doc on the other hand. So, the Blitz doc player would have to choose between 2 different variants of assault weapons. Either 2 lightly armored Stuh tanks, or 1 heavily armored Stupa tank.

- KT would be moved from Terror doctrine to TH doc, it would be in the customize reward menu as replacement to the JagdTiger.
If the player chooses the KT, he would have both KT versions deploy-able from his heavy Panzer Factory.. and he would be free to deploy 1 of them.

- LeiG.18 no longer reward unit but available only in Terror doc, requires unlock.

So, here is how Terror doctrine would look like:
New Terror.jpg
Panther.G earlier by 1 CP now, from 7 CP to 6 CP.

And the Tiger1 now requires 4 CP too, same as in Blitz doc.. and not 5 CP in Terror anymore.

Notice that Stug4 and LeiG.18 unlock(s) are separate.

The total command points are still 30 but in order to keep it 30 without delaying Stuka half-track, then I had to delay each of the following by 1 Command Point:
Sector Propaganda, Goliath cost reduction, Radio, and Victor Target.

==================================================

- Nashorn would be no longer available in TH doctrine, because TH doesn't need it. Who would spend 5 CP for Nashorn in TH doc when you can get the same tank even earlier for only 4 CP in SE doc??!!
And so, as replacement of the Nashorn unlock... Panther.D would be added to Luft doc for 5 CPs too. Which is the same amount of CPs currently required for the Panther.D in Luft doctrine btw.. so the Panther.D this way wouldn't be earlier available or even delayed, just moved to another doc.

- As replacement of Panther.D unlock in Luft doc.. comes the single Stuka bombing airstrike!
So, the single Stuka bombing run would be no longer replacing Stuka patrol in reward menu... Meaning that Luft doctrine would finally have 4 different plane unlock(s) which is just the same as Airborne doctrine and also RAF by the way! They both have 4 plane unlock(s) currently.

This is how Luft doctrine would look like:
New Luft.jpg
Now as you can see, Luft doc has 4 plane unlock(s) and not just 3 unlock(s) anymore.
Though, I had to use the Airborne doc strafe run icon :P

Still 30 command points total, but had to delay the anti personal mines and recon plane unlock(s) by 1 Command Point, only to avoid delaying more important stuff just for the sake of 30 total CP.


At last, I think there is no need to attach a picture of TH doc.. because it's very simple! As I already pointed out:
Just the Panther.D in replace of Nashorn unlock. That's in addition to the KT as it would be in reward menu together with JT unlock... Without any change to current command points of TH doc. Also, I don't think Blitz or Def doctrines need any pictures.. because just the Stupa as reward to Stuh and SturmTiger as reward to Grille! That's all.

# Allies

- RA doctrine would no longer have 17pdr emplacements, keeping in mind Luft doctrine would no longer have Panther.D and Terror doctrine would no longer have KT as I previously pointed above.

- 75mm Jumbo Sherman would be moved from infantry doctrine to Armor doctrine, being deploy-able in tank depot after the 76 Jumbo unlock.
105 Sherman and Combat Engineers are untouched.. just saying. Only 75mm Jumbos would be moved...

- Howitzers 75mm from infantry doctrine would be moved to RAF doc! Deploy-able from commando Glider.
infantry doctrine doesn't need such small howitzers when they have many other tools of arty.. and RAF needs to have something for arty, but at the same time less powerful than 95mm Cromwell. Not to mention US Airborne already has these 75mm howitzers btw!

- Armor doctrine would be changed dramatically, like this:
New Armor doc.jpg
Jumbo now requires 6 CP instead of 7 CP, and mass production is right below fast production; also both leading to AP rounds unlock for Shermans.. and vehicles capture unlock is now together with field repair and war machine unlock(s).
And the total is still 30 CP of course...


That's in addition to allowing PACE call-in together with SP call-in.. and the player would be free to choose, SP would be still available only once.
Meaning SP would be no longer a reward unit...


Now, some smaller changes:

- Commando AT boys would be 3 men and cost 300 MP instead of 1 man for 200 MP currently.

- WASP should have more range, and Terror doc flamethrower half-track the same.. possibly the Sherman Croc too.

- Elefant should have 70 basic range instead of 65 and eventually with static position, then it would be 75 instead of 70 currently.

- Tiger1 tank loses flank speed for earlier ALRS ability at Vet.1 instead of Vet.2 currently.

- 95mm Cromwell should not have flank speed.

- Slightly lowering JP cone of fire, without having to touch the range.

- 75mm L48 guns shouldn't have zero chance vs Croc Churchill rear, and US 76mm guns shouldn't have zero chance vs JT rear.

- Fixing the M3 US half-track, and Def doc Flak.88 emplacements arty barrage, as well as Tiger ACE bug... When possible.

- Sector Propaganda ability in Terror doctrine should work like Sector Arty from SE doc, but instead of sending arty shells.. it would make infantry units too easily suppressed when they are under fire by anything really, but the ability would be usable only in friendly territories.

- Blitz doc 37mm half-track should deal less damage vs vehicles with HE rounds, but in return the AP rounds should have better penetration vs light tanks.. and more specifically against Recce.

- Adjusting the kill feed as pointed on that topic ^^
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2663


At the very end, I am going to share with you how doctrines CURRENTLY look like.. just so if anyone wants to compare the CURRENT look with the NEW look that I have attached above.

So, here is how Armor, Luft and Terror doctrines look like CURRENTLY:
Terr.jpg
Current Terror doc.

Luft.jpg
Current Luft doc.

Armor.jpg
Current US Armor doc.



Hope this can be helpful to compare the CURRENT doctrines with the NEW doctrines which I first posted on the top.


Any opinions or other perspectives are surely welcome! ;)

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Warhawks97
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 May 2018, 21:09

I dont see why PE should be fixed in any way. Nashorn makes sense in both docs. For TH its usefull bc its cheaper than a Jagdpanther.
In previous version nashorn was questionable since the Jagdpanzer IV/70 was superior as it had much better ambush boni (Nashorn had literally none except accuracy). Now its changed and in does makes sense now to get a Nashorn over IV/70 due to much better gun performance (bc now both get same ambush boost).

Also why should Luft not need air recon unlock at first? And it doesnt need to be a AB/RAF copy when it comes to air capabilties.... Luft would have 4 types of strikes of which two are even area raids.


And i dont see why stug should get limited in such a way. Stug III should be expanded over all axis docs except def doc (and luft?). The IV available for BK doc.

Instead of making Stug IV as unlock i would make the US M10 to be standard unit just like the sherman.

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seha
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby seha » 12 May 2018, 15:34

very well thought.
king tiger and panther ausf.d in tank hunter make so much sense, sturmtiger for defensive and brumbar for bk doctrine.. greatly put together.

but question, you say luftwaffe will have new unlock for the diving stuka bomber, but when i look at the picture, i can see new unlock for strafe, and only 1 unlock for bombers, so is it for the diving stuka or for the stuka patrol??

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Tiger1996
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Tiger1996 » 12 May 2018, 17:50

The strafe run has new separate unlock, so it would be no longer together with the Stuka patrol in the same unlock. And thus, the bomber unlock is for 2 things that are unlocked together with shared cool-down; 1st is the Stuka patrol.. as well as the single Stuka bombing run airstrike. So, the Stuka bombing run would be no longer in the reward menu.. that's what I meant! Thx for pointing it out btw... Now I had the chance to clarify.

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Frost
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Frost » 18 May 2018, 13:21

Well that's an interesting rework as I always thought something has to be done some doctrines feels like they are just getting a lot more than they needed to have so I like the idea of reworking most of them

1-I partly agree I like the idea in general however I think it should be available for Def call in stug4 as well

2-i agree and no need to change the call in since its just luck based.

3-i disagree I think removing sturmtiger and KT is just way too much for Terror they have to get some big guns or everyone just might as well go for Bk and wont need to get Terror for Panther only since u get that as well for BK doctrine.

4-i would love to see that a True Blitzkrieg!.

5- I partly agree I like the idea of having 2 options for TH since u always Lose JT before knowing WTH is going on and keeping in mind that Anti air for PE are just way too expensive to be around so in many of the cases people would Use JT as desperate card to harness the enemy and later it would get bombed either way so adding KT as an option is very good but like I said u cant just obsolete Terror by removing both Sturmtiger and KT .

6-oustanding.

7-i fairly agree Panther d should be removed from luftwafe yes but it shouldn't be added to Th as they already have enough tanks around it would just be abandoned for variety of units they have.

there are also points I would like to mention firstly 3rd Pe building that gets AA tank its just too expensive that in a lot of situation u cant even afford to build it I think MP should be slightly decreased and fuel requirement to upgrade the 1st building increased

secondly Raf art salvo for field gun.

that's all folks have a good day / night
Image

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Tiger1996
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 May 2018, 13:10

Frost wrote:there are also points I would like to mention firstly 3rd Pe building that gets AA tank its just too expensive that in a lot of situation u cant even afford to build it I think MP should be slightly decreased and fuel requirement to upgrade the 1st building increased

secondly Raf art salvo for field gun.

Firstly, thx for dropping your thoughts on this!

I agree about the 3rd PE building, it's pretty expensive indeed... Maybe I can also add that Wirbelwind should be cheaper as well.
Regarding the RAF arty salvo for the field gun, I have suggested above that RAF doc would have the US 75mm howitzers, in return of removing them from infantry doctrine. This wouldn't hurt infantry doc arty capabilities at all, since they have many other tools of arty which are also much stronger. And at the same time, RAF would have a decent arty unit that isn't very bad or too powerful either.. as it would be just decent arty tool.
Keeping in mind that US Airborne doctrine already has such 75mm howitzers too!

=================================================================

Moreover, there is 1 little mistake I wanted to correct;
Tiger1996 wrote:- Elefant should have 70 basic range instead of 65 and eventually with static position, then it would be 75 instead of 70 currently.

Eventually with static position, the range would be 80 instead of 75 currently.

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seha
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby seha » 20 May 2018, 05:40

just adding,
if sturmtiger and king tiger are removed from terror, stuka unlock can be split from firestorm, then take 1 command point from sector propaganda for stuka, so stuka halftruck becomes 3 command points instead of five.

and if king tiger is moved to panzer elite, it will not have voice acting anymore, so maybe it can use same voice acting as jagtiger.

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Jalis
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Jalis » 20 May 2018, 15:20

Imo You would better to take high and think about a global normalisation.

I will take terror example, then TH ; you thing about add and remove valuable things, but you still keep useless one. Worst you suggest to add cp for things nobody care (that is really a gift or perhaps you recognize inability to deeply reform)

Really 2 points for goliath Cheaper. No ; remove goliath, and by sure nobody will pay a tear. Same thing for ultra decryption ; it could be a very little more useful (is it really ?), but anyway it have no connection with terror.

Move kingtiger to Tank hunter ? is KT a Jagd ? Come back several years back (even I m not sure most remember or even have know this period). During the germans dev era, Tank hunter doc was really a pure armoured doc. You had a line of tank hunter starting from hetzer ending in JT, and a line of panzer starting In PZ IV and ending with Tiger ace.
With Czech era, it was decided the doc will be the reflect of its name, and panzer were removed, letting the doc about only with Tank hunter.
If you wish to change that, do it correctly. Adding just one tank simply broke TH doc coherence.

May be most posters here look at command tree changes just focusing on balance, at least these 2 cents will allow you to look at these changes on a different light.

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Warhawks97
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 May 2018, 19:21

Jalis wrote:Move kingtiger to Tank hunter ? is KT a Jagd ? Come back several years back (even I m not sure most remember or even have know this period). During the germans dev era, Tank hunter doc was really a pure armoured doc. You had a line of tank hunter starting from hetzer ending in JT, and a line of panzer starting In PZ IV and ending with Tiger ace.

First Tiger ace, later KT.... Tank IV H (1 CP), Tiger (3 CP, early version), Panther G (3 CP), KT (4 CP).

But keep in mind that the units were way more expensive (at least the Tank hunter).... 600 MP for IV/70 and 1000 for JP without any chance to lower cost.
It was a "have everything doc" with super expensive stuff. It ended up with simple and pure Panther G spam bc inf+ Tank hunters was not affordable (eg 450 MP for heavy assault squad, high reinforce cost... much higher as now and and then 600 MP for a sinlge tank or more).
In short it looked good for some but the result was that it was just a rush for Panther G. Spamable as well as you could trade 100 ammo for 100 fuel every 3 mins or less..... it was super stupid.

This is not an answer to jali.... just my thoughts on such a scenario:
So i am afraid to see any kind of multirole heavy tank returning to TH doc. Nobody would take his job as tank killer serious anymore. Just another doctrine played by fools who do nothing else than rushing for big tanks. On top of that imagine a doc with KT which gets perhaps gunsight at default, Zimmerit (which would make it ultimately immun to normal arty fire and other damage sources), kind of spammy due to res trade, veteran crew suppored by veteran AT squads and infantry that can detect hidden TD on minimap and the possibility to repair it quickly with any combat squad (or even Bergetieger) and backed by two hotchkiss which would elimiate any AT gun or emplacment easily...... and perhaps a Hetzer to protect the tanks rear.....
Just no.


With Czech era, it was decided the doc will be the reflect of its name, and panzer were removed, letting the doc about only with Tank hunter.
If you wish to change that, do it correctly. Adding just one tank simply broke TH doc coherence.


Nope, the current state of TH doc was the last rework made by Xali himself. It was a beta (4.7) and then he left. The doc was meant to be an experiment towads more specialized axis doctrines. We actually had a full idea for a terror doc rework towads propaganda doctrine as well. But it never made it though due to internal trouble withing the old BK team.

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Tiger1996
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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 May 2018, 20:44

@Seha
Great points... I agree with the Stuka proposal.

Though, I'm pretty sure it's possible that KT would still use its WH voice.. just the same way how US captain currently uses Lieutenant voice.

Jalis wrote:With Czech era, it was decided the doc will be the reflect of its name, and panzer were removed, letting the doc about only with Tank hunter.

Not really, because Pz4 tanks are still available in TH doc.. both IVH and F1 for example! So adding the Panther.D would still make sense, specifically when keeping in mind that it does have slow turret anyway. As for the KT, I think it was always assigned as SS unit rather than Wehrmacht one.. at least historically. And often it was used as a tank hunter that snipes from long range... Gameplay wise, I believe the player would have the chance to choose between a pure tank hunter unit (jagdTiger) for only MP or a similar tank with turret (King Tiger) but then paying much fuel in return.

Warhawks97 wrote:So i am afraid to see any kind of multirole heavy tank returning to TH doc.

I think KT would be just another "face" but definitely not adding any additional power to TH doc... JagdTiger and KT are almost identical in terms of firepower and overall combat effectiveness, just each in a different way.. with various advantages and disadvantages when compared.

Lastly, i would just like to bring up this topic here...
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2656
Hopefully it wouldn't be ignored.

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Re: Docs Rework [Perspective]

Postby sgtToni95 » 24 May 2018, 11:48

Tiger1996 wrote:- Sector Propaganda ability in Terror doctrine should work like Sector Arty from SE doc, but instead of sending arty shells.. it would make infantry units too easily suppressed when they are under fire by anything really, but the ability would be usable only in friendly territories.


I like this!


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