Tank entrenched position delay

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 31 Mar 2018, 10:18

Hi everyone,

I noticed that British tanks get a huge delay after leaving the entrenched position but apparently StuGs don't. They jump out of entrenchment just fine, turn around and kill flanking speed Achilles tanks without breaking a sweat. Is that intentional because Germans used some wonder weapon digging tool just like they have HE resistant wonder armour or is this an oversight? My suggestion would be to either remove the delay completely or have everyone suffer from it. It's a bit retarded when you see a StuG dugging itself in and you think you can easily flank it when it just pops out and does not give a shit.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby sami bosal » 31 Mar 2018, 13:15

lol allies

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby MarKr » 31 Mar 2018, 16:14

It is an oversight, I guess. The delay on CW tanks was applied because it was abuseable pretty much the way you described. I will have a look at it.
What do you mean by "axis have HE resistant wonder armor"?
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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 31 Mar 2018, 16:30

If it is not an oversight, it might also come down to the fact that the StuG has no turret and thus needs to turn around the hull. I don't know how things are coded in the engine but when you immobilize a StuG it cannot turn anymore. The British tanks can still fight while being immobilized because of getting out of entrenched position I think so the StuG might be too since it's not immobilized track and engine wise?

It has been mentioned several times that axis vehicle take less damage from HE weapons. You can witness that when you try to counter an axis mortar HT with the US one. The US one will lose in general unless it's saved by lucky RNG. The axis mortar HT also survives direct hits from 105mm guns quite nicely which I doubt the US one can. Now maybe it's in there for balance reasons beyond my comprehension, I don't know, but it sure makes not much sense otherwise.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Mar 2018, 17:05

Hold on, what is "entrenched position" exactly? Or did you mean "hull-down position" unlock for all RE doc tanks?
Only 2 tanks on the Axis side have this ability; both the jagdPanzer L48 as well as Stug3 and some veterancy levels are also required btw...
Not to mention both are turret-less tanks. So I honestly can't see anything wrong here!

Also, I don't think Axis mortar HTs have any kind of better suitability.. in fact, when a US mortar half-track is fighting a PE one... Then I think the US one has more chances to win, given the fact that the US half-track has this deadly 1 heavy mortar shell ability which is capable of killing any vehicle with a single hit, the PE mortar half-track does not have that on the other hand.. but in return it's better vs inf with flame shells. And the WH mortar half-track is probably just as equal as the US one, but I still prefer the US mortar HT because of the 50.cal that protects it.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 31 Mar 2018, 17:42

I mean the ability where the tank digs into the ground and gets armour buffs. No, it makes no sense if this delay was introduced for Brits to avoid abuse, you can't have it on German tanks "because it's only on two tanks". Abuse is abuse. Yes, and those non turreted tanks have impressive turn rates, always keep their front armour towards their target and never enter a fight with the gun off target because the vehicle AI aimed at everything. Sure, you can use the manual aim ability to try and counter that on turreted tanks but you won't be able to manage any other units then.

Hm, I never used that ability so I did not consider it. Fair point. Does it come with every doctrine or does it need vet? I must have missed it the last time I used it. Still, the US mortar won't survive HE shelling nearly as much as the axis ones. That applies to all sorts of HE, not only one ability of one vehicle. The only time I played against you I set a Priest to fire an accurate salvo at your mortar HT. It drove away with half of it's health so take that as an example for it's HE resistance and the "very strong" accurate salvo.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Mar 2018, 18:00

Hm, I never used that ability so I did not consider it. Fair point. Does it come with every doctrine or does it need vet?

Yes, all doctrines.. and no vet required for it.

Still, the US mortar won't survive HE shelling nearly as much as the axis ones. That applies to all sorts of HE, not only one ability of one vehicle. The only time I played against you I set a Priest to fire an accurate salvo at your mortar HT. It drove away with half of it's health so take that as an example for it's HE resistance and the "very strong" accurate salvo.

The half-track survived once, then it died... After all, I bet the same would happen with a US half-track vs Axis 105mm arty. However, the Axis 105mm arty can never be as much accurate with scoring hits in the first place since there is no such a similar "aimed salvo" ability on the Axis side anyways!
Grille is an exception with accuracy of course.. but that's 150mm and not 105mm though.

it makes no sense if this delay was introduced for Brits to avoid abuse, you can't have it on German tanks "because it's only on two tanks". Abuse is abuse.

Hmm, it's not a big deal for me at the end of the day... Though, I would rather no delay at all for both sides then.
As I think there can be other drawbacks considered; for example activating the ability would cost something, instead of a delay...
I mean that the delay itself is nonsense actually!

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 31 Mar 2018, 18:34

You forgot that it was one direct hit plus two very close ones - and it did not die. It died on another try of mine to get it. If you don't believe me, I can send you the replay. I am sure something very different would happen as we all know that US don't have that HE buff. Only all axis vehicles and the Churchills get it. Grille is the "delete anything" vehicle, the accurate shot of RA does not even come close to it's potential. Grille does not need a spotter and does not need vision, for that matter.

Well, the delay is there to counteract the sillyness of a tank "jumping" out of a deeply entrenched position, I guess. Because that's what happens. You think that the enemy won't be able to react to your flanking maneuver, at least not with the very same vehicle, but when the whole bunch just jumps out and turns, it not only looks retarded but it makes it a sort of no drawback move.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Tiger1996 » 31 Mar 2018, 19:05

You forgot that it was one direct hit plus two very close ones - and it did not die. It died on another try of mine to get it. If you don't believe me, I can send you the replay.

I believe you... Though, still my point after all.. is that it died.

I am sure something very different would happen as we all know that US don't have that HE buff. Only all axis vehicles and the Churchills get it. Grille is the "delete anything" vehicle, the accurate shot of RA does not even come close to it's potential. Grille does not need a spotter and does not need vision, for that matter.

I am not sure what HE buff are you talking about, in fact.. you can try and test this: go hit an Axis mortar half-track with Sherman HE then try do the same against US mortar half-track with Pz4.F1 HE rounds... I bet it's a similar result, if not better results for the US mortar half-track actually!

And no, the Grile is limited to only one.. later available and more expensive to obtain in comparison to the Priest.
Also, the Grille is not really a "delete everything" hammer. Several times I have seen the Grille failing to deal any damage (or very little damage) to very simple Allied vehicle or emplacement targets, it has personally happened to me a lot of times really.. over 6 fail hits! Nearly 300 ammo wasted.. even the Calliope Sherman received few damage, despite scoring a direct Grille hit... Some of these incidents were also recorded and already uploaded from my side, plenty of times.

And actually, the RA aimed salvo ability is perhaps even more deadly than Grille, you can literally knock out a Tiger tank with 4 accurate hits in the row with extreme high rate of fire by the Priest, giving little to no chance for the enemy tank to escape.. it would be either heavily damaged or immobilized. I could say this with absolute confidence; the "aimed salvo" ability is one of the most deadly abilities in the game...

Well, the delay is there to counteract the sillyness of a tank "jumping" out of a deeply entrenched position, I guess. Because that's what happens. You think that the enemy won't be able to react to your flanking maneuver, at least not with the very same vehicle, but when the whole bunch just jumps out and turns, it not only looks retarded but it makes it a sort of no drawback move.

I never liked "delaying" things though, as I personally believe the more "delaying" is implemented.. the higher the chance of desync occurrence.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 01 Apr 2018, 09:09

I'm not even sure I killed it with arty. I think kwok killed it with a Jackson because you had overextended it and probably were busy somewhere else when the Jackson approached.

Ask Warhawks, he'll tell you about the across the board resistance of axis vehicles against HE damage.

Yes, Grille is limited to only one because in most cases it is superior to the Priest. Yes, but RNG affects every action in this game, sometimes retardedly much. The problem with the aimed salvo was less that it did not hit all three shots but that the one hit only damaged it slightly and the next two that landed right next to it did zero damage (or minimal, I don't know and I would have to check). I mean on the other side I have to admit that you can mess up a King Tiger with an aimed salvo if you're lucky. When all three shots hit their target, Tiger II remains at 50% health which is admittedly impressive for a 105mm HE. However don't think that you could just delete a Tiger II with two Priests easily because usually the vehicles in BK get a few "second chances" when they are nearly dead, resulting in crits rather than damage dealt.
Hm, maybe I remember it wrongly but I counted three shots with the aimed salvo and there seems to be a pretty hefty reload after that. And about that no chance to escape thing: Your mortar HT did just fine and it has paper armour in comparison. I'd take a Grille shot over aimed salvo any day, to be honest. It does not need any micro, it does not need any vision and it does not announce itself before doing damage. The aimed salvo leaves you plenty of time to retreat your vehicle. The only time I think that the aimed salvo is better is against elite infantry that usually won't get one shotted by 150mm guns.

What impacts desync in the first place? For me it always seemed like too many units were a factor but we had a huge desync in a 1v1 last time which was quite surprising. I mean the delay is not really well done because you lack a visual input (because the animations are not there). The tanks pop out of entrenched position and simply cannot move and there's not even a cooldown timer that shows you when they are ready to move. However the whole process of jumping out of cover kinda makes the game look more goofy than it needs to be, especially since BK tries to go for authenticity (at least overall) and tanks behaving like cats is kind of a weird sight. If you dig in your tank so that only the gun is peeking out, you won't be able to leave that position very quickly. I would argue that the very strong armour or accuracy buffs you get in this position should have a downside or otherwise they become another nobrainer move. Flanking is already quite hard in this game, considering that most of the time you play on small maps or big corridor maps. It would be kinda cool if you at least had to make an extra effort to secure the flanks of the entrenched tanks in order to avoid being flanked instead of just jumping out of cover and proceeding to oneshot the flanking enemies.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Redgaarden » 01 Apr 2018, 10:54

Doesn't allied HT Mortar have more hp or same as AXIS one? I haven't noticed anything different about them. And I think 95mm always one hit kills Mortar HT with a direct hit. And it was tanks that have Arty resitance. But does pz4 have it or only the elite tanks like Tiger and jagdpanther? Does panther have arty resitance?

Yes, Grille is limited to only one because in most cases it is superior to the Priest. Yes, but RNG affects every action in this game, sometimes retardedly much. The problem with the aimed salvo was less that it did not hit all three shots but that the one hit only damaged it slightly and the next two that landed right next to it did zero damage (or minimal, I don't know and I would have to check). I mean on the other side I have to admit that you can mess up a King Tiger with an aimed salvo if you're lucky. When all three shots hit their target, Tiger II remains at 50% health which is admittedly impressive for a 105mm HE. However don't think that you could just delete a Tiger II with two Priests easily because usually the vehicles in BK get a few "second chances" when they are nearly dead, resulting in crits rather than damage dealt.
Hm, maybe I remember it wrongly but I counted three shots with the aimed salvo and there seems to be a pretty hefty reload after that. And about that no chance to escape thing: Your mortar HT did just fine and it has paper armour in comparison. I'd take a Grille shot over aimed salvo any day, to be honest. It does not need any micro, it does not need any vision and it does not announce itself before doing damage. The aimed salvo leaves you plenty of time to retreat your vehicle. The only time I think that the aimed salvo is better is against elite infantry that usually won't get one shotted by 150mm guns.


Aimed salvo shoots at the target even if it moves. I have used the aimed salvo on retrating infantry and seen my artillery shoot inside the base of the oppoent. Aimed salvo is for detracking the King Tiger. And preist is by far the strongest artillery piece in the game.

I am not sure what HE buff are you talking about, in fact.. you can try and test this: go hit an Axis mortar half-track with Sherman HE then try do the same against US mortar half-track with Pz4.F1 HE rounds... I bet it's a similar result, if not better results for the US mortar half-track actually!


I think pz4 He does more damge than sherman, but boths are prob 2 hit kills. or a 1 it kill for pz4.



And no, the Grile is limited to only one.. later available and more expensive to obtain in comparison to the Priest.
Also, the Grille is not really a "delete everything" hammer. Several times I have seen the Grille failing to deal any damage (or very little damage) to very simple Allied vehicle or emplacement targets, it has personally happened to me a lot of times really.. over 6 fail hits! Nearly 300 ammo wasted.. even the Calliope Sherman received few damage, despite scoring a direct Grille hit... Some of these incidents were also recorded and already uploaded from my side, plenty of times.



The grille is dangures because of its 900 damage gun and high accuracy.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Warhawks97 » 01 Apr 2018, 11:59

US and WH Mortar HT health: 315
PE HT: 280.

The AoE of a 105 is 10 range.
The blast radius is 0-1/1-3/3-7/7-10 (short, medium, long, distant)
Damage modifier: 1.5/0.75/0.5/0.3

Axis/Allis 105 arty damage: 335. Explosion center: 50% more damage. Total damage: 502
Allied damage reduction to pretty much all axis tanks and vehicles: 25%. Damage dealed with direct hit: 376,875

So yes, both should blow up instant, no chance to survive. Thing is arty direct hit or explosion center has a radius of 1. So it really needs to hit the target and shouldnt be one millimeter next to it.
Medium distance damage to axis HT: 188,4375
vs Allis HT: 251,25.... The difference is quite significant. Medium hits can visually look like a direct one basically as you can see in the blast radius. As reference: Allis grenade range is 15.

Take as sample the shells hit within medium and long range from target. Allied HT is dead, axis has taken 314,0625 damage out of his 315 HP. Thats a life saver.
To kill an allied HT you require just a medium and distant hit (edge of the AoE). To kill an Wehrmacht HT you have to score a medium and long hit.
Another possibility to kill allied HT is to score a hit within long and two within distant range. Or two long distant hits. To kill axis you need three long distant hits.... and so on. So when everything arround you blows up, the axis will live longer and having much higher chance to get away with 1 HP left.

Veterancy for mortar HT´s:

Axis:
Vet 1: 15% less taken damage
vet 2: 12,5% sight range boost
vet 3: 30% more damage from main weapon.

US:
Vet 1: 25% more speed
Vet 2: 25% higher accuracy (?!). That shoudldnt affect the weapon bc its an indirect firing weapon and thus using scatter, not accuracy. So the vehicle gets nothing here. But i leave this question to markr.
Vet 3: 25% more damage.


@Nighthawks: Both, US and Wehrmacht have this 105 mm shot ability on mortar HT´s. But it has less range than normal rounds. So its not just an US feature.


However: The US 75 mm sherman HE deals 280 damage to mortar HT. The axis stubby 75 mm deals 95 damage. In return the axis stubby HE shoots more accurate and is way more deadly vs inf


@Tiger: Nope, 4 direct 105 hits cant take a tiger out completely. Or lets say they have to hit all to 100%. But that will never happen. You already made that test with a still standing tiger on a small map (so you hadnt to shoot from max range). Targeted salvo can cripple tanks or finish them. But its not a simple killer ability+ the cooldown is huge (3 mins like an off map ability). Grille is in this respect (but also Hummel as a single hit deals lots of damage already) better in taking out a target quickly. Sure some shots are bugged somtimes and do no damage or target has few HP left. But as long as you have ammo you can repeat it after a few seconds.

@red: The 95 mm is a different story. Damage here is 260. AoE is 7. The AoE classification and modifiers are same as to the 105 just that medium range is 1-4 and not 1-3. As it seems the distant range which is 7-10 for the 105 doesnt exist as the long range reaches from 4-7 range.

Thing is it has damage boost vs HT of 350% (3.5 damage modifier instead 0.75 modifier like the 105 has) apparently. So it takes out HT nicely.
However its range is just 120 so i think its a very british tool to handle mortar HT´s since they dont have mortar HT´s on their own.


What we should perhaps also note is that artillery has not just AoE and damage modifiers at each given distance but also accuracy and pen. I think that means that the blast can "fail" to hit or to pen. The accuracy is set so that it cant fail the HT but sometimes fail to pen. At the very edge of the AoE there is a 75% chance to pen the HT (this is set for 105 and 95 mm at their respective max AoE) but thats a question for markr.

Edit @markr: Am i right for the axis mortar HT using the "grw_34_81mm_mortar_barrage_wgr40"?
If so then this shell is vastly better than the one US mortar HT uses (allies_81mm_mortar_halftrack_m45"). The US one is technically a 105 shot which suffers exact the same penalties as the 105 howitzer (which means the enemie HT needs to be hit very directly).
The axis HT fires in return a 155 mm Hummel shell. 400-600 damage and better AoE. Short range AoE is 0-4. The US 0-1 while medium also already ends at 3 range. Axis medium AoE is 4-6 range.
So the chance for axis HT to kill a allied HT with that special shot is much higher. Also the axis can oneshot a sherman (600-900 damage on a direct hit. Sherman has 636 HP).
But i wait for markr to confirm it. But if its true the axis WH super shell is a Hummel shell technically. It seems to be also a tiny bit more accurate over the US one.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 01 Apr 2018, 12:43, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 01 Apr 2018, 12:16

81mm mortar can also tear the 75mm Sherman a new one very quickly. Apparently the US forgot to give their tank armour. I doubt you can do that in return to a Panzer IV Ausf. D, nevermind it's real equivalent, the F2.

Good to know that, I never saw it, thanks!

@Redgaarden: Yes, it tracks the target but does not necessarily hit close enough to do damage. It would be better to just rename it to "tracking shot" than "accurate shot" because that's not really true.

Yes, you can detrack a Tiger II but only if you're lucky as well. Never mind tracking a Jagdtiger.
On a side note: The 76mm AT gun is an abortion of a gun. The only thing it reliably hits and damages are Panzer IV D. The rest it just misses or bounces like a retard, I'd pick a 50mm Pak 38 over it any day.
Sorry, have to vent my frustration of playing US. Nearly everything they have is under performing garbage tier equipment, excluding the infantry.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby sami bosal » 01 Apr 2018, 15:20

hy 7thhawak
i checked both axis and allies mortar halftrack. they have both same range and abilities. but axis one is more expensive.you can do with alies ones like axis does.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 01 Apr 2018, 15:59

Hey,

yes, that's what the others said as well but there's HE damage reduction.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby sami bosal » 01 Apr 2018, 19:03

yeah it cause axis ht has 150mm artillery round and allies ht has 105mm artillery round. but axis one is of 50 ammo but allies one is 35 or less ammo.both have same range and there is no effect of docs on mortar hts they are same in every doc

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 01 Apr 2018, 19:09

Are you sure about that? Also where do those super grenades come from anyway? I am really interested to hear because I never knew about oversized mortar grenades. Do they work like the spigot on the AVRE and if yes, what caliber are they?

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby sami bosal » 01 Apr 2018, 19:30

i duno much but i can dig in corsix.but all i said is damn true. axis has 150mm grenade and allies have 105mm. they are fired from same 81mm mortar tube on ht


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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby sami bosal » 02 Apr 2018, 04:58

|7th|Nighthawk wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z6vwSI1DOs

lol die pee

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2018, 13:43

What sami bosal says makes it sound like they shoot those rounds as basic so to put it right:
US mortar HT uses basic ammo which is very similar to the shells fired from WM mortar HT: deals 90 damage, the blast radius is "10" (distances, damage drop-off, penetration are the same for both), the Axis one has +50% damage vs halftracks of Allies and the Allied one has +50% damage vs halftracks of Axis and in general they have same (I haven't checked it all but from those I checked) damage penalties vs tanks.
They use same shells for the "barrage ability" so no difference there either. Both HTs have same HP.
US mortar HT can use the "heavy shell" ability (35 ammo for one shot; the describtion says something like it has explosive effect similar to artillery 105mm shell but shorter range) - this one really has stats similar to 105mm howitzer shell.
WM mortar HT can also use a "heavy shell" ability (50 ammo for one shot; describtion says something similar as for the US ability) - this one has indeed stats very similar to a hummel 150mm shell.
So in the end the HTs are pretty much the same - same ranges, same damage with their basic shells, same HP, the US is a bit faster but not too much...US has forward-facing .50cal so maybe that could be an advantage. As for the abilities the US costs less but has lower damage potential.
I don't see any problem here.
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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Apr 2018, 13:56

Can you pls give an info about the US halftrack vet accuracy boost?`Does it boost anything bc indirect weapons do not work via accuracy but with scatter. So if it should be more accurate the vet would have to reduce scatter, not improve accuracy or am i wrong?

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 02 Apr 2018, 13:58

Okay, that HE modifier Warhawks mentioned is a thing though, right? The .50 only comes in handy if you messed up your micro though and doesn't the Sdkfz have a rearward facing MG34 or MG42? That said, I find mortar HTs, no matter which side they are used from, the most annoying units on the field by a country mile but I'm derailing the thread here.

EDIT: The .50 on the US HT will probably be more punishing to infantry with the vet upgrade but since a lot of axis infantry has some sort of AT weaponry and Panzerschrecks or Panzerfausts one shot it, it would not be my primary choice to move it to the front.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Apr 2018, 14:18

Well, iirc the vet affected only "hardpoint 1".... each weapon is a hardpoint and modifiers can either effect all or just one. If i remember correctly it was only hardpoint one, thus the mortar.

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Re: Tank entrenched position delay

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2018, 14:28

@Hawks: Accuracy has some usage for indirect shooting weapons, or at least for mortars. Do you remember those "omg omg wtf retarded mortar has guided shots???" complaints? That is caused by accuracy of mortars when they target specific unit (so NOT using the barrage ability which targets ground)- the unit "aims" for the target, if the shot is calculated as a miss, then it falls somewhere into the scatter radius. If the shot is calculated as a "hit" then it hits the target even if it is moving. The accuracy is not that important for howitzers and other units that shoot indirectly and only by usage of abilities that target ground. Targetting ground seems to bypass normal accuracy values, so that is why the scatter helps there more.

What hawks mentioned about the Veterancy could actually make a difference too.
US mortar HT gets +25% movement speed at Vet1, +25% accuracy at Vet2 and +25% damage boost at Vet3.
Axis mortar Hts get -15% damage taken at Vet1, +12.5% sight range (not weapon range though) at Vet2 and +30% damage boost at Vet3.

So Axis HTs start taking less damage when anything shoots at them, can see incoming threaths sooner and deal more damage. US HT can move around the battlefield faster, gets more accurate and deals more damage (5% less than Axis but still).
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