5.1.4 preview

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MarKr
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5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 22 Mar 2018, 14:17

Hello to all of you.
(I will explain reasons for most influential changes in the following wall of text so for those of you who are not keen on reading: You can scroll down to the "Changelog" section ;) )

It has been quite some time since the last update because I've been very busy and so I had less time to work on the mod but here we go :). In this update there are several quite big changes that will hopefully help with the balance. We've been watching the discussions that have been going on here and we tried to adress problems mentioned here. Many other things are part of the planned doctrinal reworks so if they are not included in this update then they were considered too big and dependant on other changes and so they were postponed to the rework to be introduced along with the other changes which are needed to get some balanced outcome because introducing them separately might have negative effect on balance.

If there is one change that will get attention of pretty much everyone, then it is the change to the effectiveness of 57mm AT guns / 6 pounders. These are the "middle tier" AT guns of Allies which performed extremely poorly even vs medium tanks which they are meant to counter, on the other hand the Axis counterpart - 50mm PaK38 performed very well against medium tanks and thanks to its "rocket" ability it was very useful even in late game. Even if we take a look at the very basic performance (without any abilities) of the 57mm and 50mm guns then penetration difference between them vs comparable targets was as much as 30% (not sure about the exact numbers because they differed based on specific units but let's say that 57mm had penetration chance of 30% vs PIV; then 50mm had about 60% vs Sherman). These guns cost the same, have the same purpose in the game (not really important but also had similar performance in reality) but here there are vast differences between the performance of each. Instead of taking the "buff 57mm to the level of 50mm" approach or the "nerf 50mm to the 57mm level" approach we decided to take the "middle" way - so basically we compared the penetration chances at maximum range vs similar targets and set the guns on the middle of the difference. Thus the guns should perform on more similar level.

We decided to go with this approach because we did not want to nerf the 50mm gun too much to make it as useless as the current 57mm gun and at the same time if we buffed 57mm all the way to the level of Axis 50mm, then Axis players would be more reluctant to take risk and try to attack because Allies would have one more thing to effectively counter Axis medium tanks. This is something that we can observe quite often - people like to use things that can survive in combat and have enough firepower to work on their own or at least with minimum support, this is the reason why Pershings became much more used after they became more resistant and deadly with the 90mm guns got a buff, and it is also why players suddenly became hesitant to roll out with one Tiger or Panther after the 90mm guns got buffed - suddenly there was a significant threat to these units and there was a chance to lose these quickly. We wanted to avoid a similar scenario on the "medium tanks level" so we chose a "smaller buff and smaller nerf" rather than "big nerf or big buff".

These changes also apply to these guns mounted on vehicles - so Puma, T48 and the first Churchill. This means that if the basic penetration is higher, the AP ammo is more potent too, so the 6 pounder Churchill should have a little bit better chance vs PIVs. Hopefully this will help a little with the "the first Churchill is useless" debate. Also the T48 is affected with this change and now has the option to get upgraded with AP ammo and use timed "AP ammo" ability. On the other hand, since the T48 has better gun now, the ranges have been standartized so that it has basic maximum range of 65 and if it is in camo it gets +5 range (just as any other AT halftrack).

Another thing that has been changed in medium tank combat is the reload times. There have been calls for some changes in this field because Axis 75mm L48 guns had reload times of 5 seconds while US 76mm guns had reload times of 7 seconds and at the same time the Axis guns had way better penetration and damage. We, again, had several options of what to do - either make Allies reload faster or make Axis reload slower or again some middle ground. In this case we decided to go with the slower reload across the board so the reload times sit now at 7 seconds for 76mm guns as well as for 75mm guns. Along with this change there is also a slight change to the effectiveness of all 75mm L48 guns vs Sherman tanks - now they have about 5% lower chance to penetrate. It does not change all that much since 75mm L48 guns have still about 15% higher chance to penetrate Shermans than 76mm guns to penetrate PIVs but the difference used to 20% so we lowered that a little bit.

If we put together that PIVs will reload with same speed as Shermans, that Shermans will be a bit more resistant to 50mm guns and also the fact that they will gain slightly more resistance to 75mm L48 guns, it will make Shermans in general survive a bit easier. Because of this the basic costs of all affected Shermans (check the changelog) were increased and for Armor doctrine the Mass production unlock lowers the prices less than before.

Next important change on the list is the removal of "hit and run" ability from Wolverine and Achilles. For the Wolverine we replaced the ability with a "Fire smoke shell" which allows yout to shoot a smoke shell over the range of 60. It can have various offensive and defensive uses but we'll see how and if people will use it. As for Achilles, there is no replacement. This is for several reasons - first of all Achilles was often described as "too versatile" which is probably true so one less ability will not hurt. Also there have been requests to make all tank destroyers automatically target vehicles in ambush mode and keep them the ability to manually turn on or off the auto-targetting and this could not be applied Achilles because Hit and Run ability was in the UI slot of the "Hold fire" ability. Now the change has been applied to all TDs in the game. So if you camouflage your TDs, they will target vehicles automatically, but if you want them to stay hidden, you can use the "hold fire" button and they will not target anything unless you give an order to attack a specific target.

One of the changes is a reaction to posts where people said that Hetzer in ambush mode wrecks Pershings and other cases when a mid-tier TD from camo steam-rolled top-tier units. The bonuses that AT guns and TDs got for the first shot from camo varied a lot - usually they had bonuses to accuracy, penetratio and damage, but the ammount varied a lot; some had +50% damage, +25% accuracy and +200% penetration, some had these numbers inversed, some had completely different values, some received bonuses only in one or two of these "sections" some had these bonuses applied not only for the first shot but also for any shot that took place in the following 10 seconds...it was simply a mess that did not follow any logical pattern so now we have this unified. When you camouflage an AT gun or a TD, the first shot will get +50% accuracy, +25% penetration and +25% damage - since the crew is hidden, they have enough time to aim the shot properly (thus the +50% accuracy buff), they can aim for some weaker spots and if the shot goes through, it can cause more damage (thus the damage and penetration bonuses). We wanted to keep the ambush mode as a viable option that has some rewards when used sucessfully however we had to keep some aspects in mind. For example if we set the accuracy bonus to some crazy-high number (e.g. +200%) then the tank would never miss its target even if the target was covered in smoke or even if it were a soldier in cover. TDs have their accuracy at max range set to 75% so the +50% accuracy should be enough to hit any target unless it is in smoke (there is still chance to miss). Another aspect was the insane penetration buff which made usage of AP abilities pretty much obsolete because the TDs could simply penetrate and (often) destroy units that they would have hard time penetrating without camo. So TDs will no longer easily destroy units that are waaay above their tier. You can still combine the bonus with "AP" abilities that these units have because the camo bonus and the bonuses from AP abilities stack but this combination will give you usually about +75% penetration and you would need to spend some ammo on it to reach this value.

We also bring the "Vehicle suppression" ability to PE. After you upgrade the Assault Grenadiers with LMG, you will get access to this new ability. It has range of 60, it is fairly cheap and the targeted vehicle receives -30% accuracy for main gun, loweres its view range by -50% and disables the Top MG. This ability can be used to give some space for your AT infantry - the Top MG cannot kill them during their aim time and thanks to the accuracy nerf for the main gun the team is less likely to get hit by "HE shot" ability, especially if the AT team is also in some cover. In the end we decided to make this feature PE-unique for Axis side. On allies side, CW to be specific, the "vehicle button" ability now has the same effect. The US and WM do not have access to this ability. Also this ability intentionally does not disable the MG gunners on Recces and Scout Cars, though they still get -30% accuracy so if you use it on them, it will not be completely wasted. We decided not to implement the "MG suppression" on these two units because we thought it would have too strong impact on PE and CW early game, though if this susspicion proves to be wrong, we can enable it in the future.

As a reaction to complaints about "over-performing Riflemen", there are some changes to them too. First of all, the accuracy of their Garands at longer ranges was dropped tiny bit (still DON'T try to rush them, they can easily shred infantry squads at close ranges - especially if these squads have no cover; fight them from distance). Another thing connected to this is the change that allows Volksgrenadiers to upgrade MP40 from the start and instead of one bundle of 4 weapons for 50 ammo, you can upgrade it twice but each bundle gives 2 weapons and costs 25 ammo. This should allow to Axis to have some protection from Riflemen when they try to rush to Volks and kill them with the fast-shooting Garands. Also the Suppressive fire ability (when you get BARs) is now only available to Riflemen in Infantry doctrine and the ability should take a little more time to suppress enemy.

There has also been raised an interesting point about Churchill AVRE. The only point of this unit is to take down defenses but at its current state it cannot reliably do that. With direct hit it deals enough damage to destroy MG nests though other emplacements can survive direct hit and because of steep damage fall off they survive "near hits" easily. When it comes to dealing with bunkers AVRE did not do very good job either. We have buffed the damage - if an emplacement is hit in the Aoe of the shot, it will be destroyed (they might barely survive if they are on the very edge of the AoE) and a hit from AVRE should now take down about half HP of a bunker (the standard bunker, not the SE special bunker. The important thing is that AVRE would destroy "non-AT" emplacements anyway because these cannot damage Churchills and AT emplacements on Axis side are the flak36 88mm and the PaK43 88mm which both have bigger range than AVRE. So AVRE can one-shot these emplacements but it takes risk because it will most likely be exposed to these guns too. Because of the increased damage there is also increase in cost-per-shot and cooldown time on the ability. An addition to AVRE is a new "stun" effect if a vehicle gets caught in the AoE - it applies nerfs to movement speed, accuracy and reload times but only for 7 seconds.

Last bigger change we have on the list are the changes to Jeep/Schwim/Bike guns. They no longer suppress enemy infantry. The main suppression-providing unit in early game should be HMG teams, these units should work as recons and early game extra firepower for your infantry. The fact that they have suppression at the moment allows them to drive close to opponent, suppress them (which applies nerfs to the infantry) and kill them off one by one - this is not something we want from an early-game vehicle that requires only MP and no further resources. If you try to do this now, your vehicle will most likely get destroyed. Also there was pretty much no reason to ever pick Motorbike over Schwimwagen as WM - Schwim has more HP, same gun, quite good detection radius and was only a bit slower than Bike. Now Schwimwagen is with its speed more similar to Jeep and compared to Bike its detection radius is significantly shorter. This means that Schwimwagen is now more of a firepower bonus for infantry in early game while Bike works more of a recon unit with faster movement and detection radius but lower HP.

The rest are mostly bug fixes and QoL adjustments.

This should cover the reasoning behind the bigger changes of this update - currently the files are ready and we're checking if the changed stuff is really working. Hopefuly the update could be released in few days. This means that this changelog is closed unless we run into some serious problems during testing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General:
- Increased reload time of most 75mm L48 guns (PIV F2/H/J, StuG III/IV, Hetzer and JPIV) to 7 seconds
- Tweaked stats of 57mm/6pounder guns vs PIVs (includes AT gun teams, T48s, 6pounder churchills; removed -6% accuracy; penetration increased by approximately +10%)
- Tweaked stats of 50mm guns vs Shermans (includes PaK38, Puma; reduced penetration by approximately 10%)
- fixed 1000 VP infantry only mode in CZ language (the desribtion said 1000 VP and did not mention that it is "Infantry only")
- M10 (Wolverine and Achilles) no longer react to movement orders when they are in ambush mode (prevents accidentally leaving ambush position)
- M10 (Wolverine and Achilles) no longer automatically activate Flank speed when they leave ambush (need manual activation)
- Suppression values of LMGs on Jeeps and Schwimwagens/Motorbikes lowered to (approximately) the level of hull MGs on tanks
- Fixed an issue which made several "timed HE" abilities too accurate when shooting at targets in smoke
- Applied new "Reinforce squad icon" (replaces the vCoH reinforcement icon)
- Unified bonuses on vehicles and AT guns when shooting from ambush mode; now they get on the first shot +50% accuracy, +25% penetration, +25% damage (from various values)
- All medic teams should now have proper texts on their Reinforcement button
- All Tank Destroyers should now auto-target enemy vehicles once in ambush mode by default (auto-targetting can be manualy turned off with a "hold fire" button)
- Update Allied Warmachine ability describtion to clearly say what the ability does
- Unified the nerfs of AT guns shooting at armored cars of any faction (they should now all have x0.8 accuracy vs moving armored cars)

US:
- Changed Veterancy bonuses of 57mm AT guns from vCoH to standard BK mod Vet bonuses for AT guns
- Lowered range of T48 to 65 (from 75)
- T48 in camo now receives +5 range (instead of -10)
- Removed "Hit and Run" ability from Wolverine
- Added "Fire smoke shell" ability to Wolverine (25 ammo)
- Changed costs of Shermans (price in brackets applies to Armor doc after Mass production upgrade):
* Sherman M4 410MP 40F (350MP 30F)
* Sherman 76(W) 450MP 55F (380MP 45F)
* Sherman E8 500MP 70F (400MP 52F)
* Sherman Crocodile 440MP 60F (360MP 45F)
* Sherman 76mm Jumbo 780MP
- Removed "Hit and Run" ability from Wolverine
- Added "Fire smoke shell" ability to Wolverine (25 ammo)
- M8 Scott can now use offmap barrage with Tank Commander inside
- Defensive Straffing patrol of AB forward HQ no longer dissapears after upgrading "Straffing AP bullets"
- Tweaked suppression values of BAR's "Suppression" ability - it suppresses a bit slower now
- BAR's "Suppression" ability is now only available to Riflemen in Infantry docrine
- Medic squad (deployed from triage center) can no longer reinforce anywhere via paradrop
- AB medic team can now retreat to AB HQ or to AB HQ Squad
- AB Engineers (called from AB HQ) have now correctly set alternate retreat point as other AB units (instead of Ranger Captain)

CW:
- Removed "Hit and Run" ability from Achilles
- Reworked "Button vehicle" ability
* cost dropped to 10 (from 25)
* range increased to 60 (from 30)
* lower's target's view range by 50% (from 99%)
* makes main gun 50% less accurate (from completely dissabling it)
* disables Top MG
* no longer slows down the targetted vehicle
- Reworked "sector smoke" ability of RA doctrine into an "Offmap smoke barrage" which sends 15 smoke rounds into a selected area
- Fixed an issue that still allowed HQ trucks to crush HMG and Mortar teams
- Lowered turret rotation speed of Achilles to 13 (from 18.5)
- Increased damage output of AVRE vs emplacements (now it should one-shot most emplacements)
- Increased damage output of AVRE vs bunkers (now it should take at least half of bunker's HP on direct hit)
- AVRE now has 5% chance of destroying a bunker completely on hit
- Vehicles in the AoE of AVRE's shot now get a short "stun" effect which lowers the accuracy, reload speed, vision and movement speed for 7 seconds
- AVRE shot ammo cost increased to 45 (from 30) and recharge time increased to 60 seconds (from 45)
- RA Autocar barrage cost increased to 40 (from 25)
- Lowered sight range of Stuart Recce to 40 (from 60)
- Fixed a bug which removed cooldown on Recce's Binocular ability
- Firefly has now basic reload time set for 6 seconds no matter how far the target is (used to reload faster when target was further away)

WM:
- PIV J needs the "H" unlock + "Faster production; comes cheaper right away
- Mass production makes "H" cheaper, does not affect cost of "J"
- Tiger Ace should not longer deal damage to anything just by getting close to it
- Lowered mobility and detection radius of Schwimwagen
- Changed Volksgrenadiers MP40 upgrade from "4xMP40 for 50 ammo" to "2xMP40 for 25 ammo"; possible to upgrade 2x per squad

PE:
- Assault Grenadiers now receive "Vehicle suppression" ability when they purchase LMG upgrade*update
- Vehicle suppression ability:
- costs 10 ammo
- range 60
- lower's target's range by 50%
- makes main gun 50% less accurate
- disables Top MG
- Removed "Hold facing" ability from Jagdpanther to make room for "Hold Fire" ability when in camo
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JimQwilleran
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby JimQwilleran » 22 Mar 2018, 14:59

Finally allies nerfs!

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sami bosal
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby sami bosal » 22 Mar 2018, 15:28

read all the way down. can't wait to see effects of changes

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|7th|Nighthawk
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby |7th|Nighthawk » 22 Mar 2018, 17:51

Read all the way through it. They seem to be very sensible changes overall. The only thing I'm a bit sceptical about is the slower turret rotation on the Achilles. Since you cannot "lock" turrets, it usually starts aiming all over the place when you do a mobile attack and often already ends up with the gun facing the wrong way. Because of the brilliant vehicle AI and especially the in my opinion awful retreat feature of vehicles, this could severely hamper it's ability to flank because an SPG will be a lot faster to turn it's hull than the M10 will be able to turn it's turret.
Anyway, we'll see, thanks for all the hard work and explanation!

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Mar 2018, 19:59

Nice. Very nice changes. Finally the ambush doesnt give such crazy boosts anymore. I was waiting so long for standardazing them.

Just a few things make me curious:

1. Tank IV´s, stugs etc will now reload 7 seconds. Even though 6 seconds would have been better in order to have an option to either count of "shelling" the enemie with lots weaker shots or to count on heavy anihiliation guns. That way the decision to either go for rate of fire or power per shot would be highly strategic. It might be then more usefull to go for hetzers and stug IV´s when expecting many weaker armored tanks (cromwells, shermans) rather than very heavy guns which in turn would prove highly lethal even against heavier armored stuff. Like you can overcome heavy guns with more units or you counter many units with more faster shooting guns while keeping vulnerable to heavy armored stuff.
People will probably keep running for heavier guns on the long term. Medium guns and thus medium tanks might keep usefull throughout the game instead having their "show" just for a limited duration.
It would be simply nice to see that the heaviest of all guns would not have the highest standard rof of all guns. Most of them can reduce their reload times anyway with abilties like stat modes, command tank or abilties like double shot or having simply long range efficiency by default or also by abilities.

With that change the "worst" of all common guns would have longer or same reload speed as guns which are way more powerfull already in terms of damage and penetration. Like Tigers with 6 sec reload speed, firefly and comet also with 6 seconds, Jagdpanther with approx 5 seconds and so on.

2. The suppression thing for lmgs. I see it has 60 range. So basically any CW or PE inf squad with lmg would be able suppress any tank anytime for just 10 ammo and giving them massive penalties. That means that HE tanks with their limited range would be always affected by them.

I know that CW and PE units with lmg are costly units and thus rare on the field. Its just something that caught my attention.



|7th|Nighthawk wrote:Read all the way through it. They seem to be very sensible changes overall. The only thing I'm a bit sceptical about is the slower turret rotation on the Achilles. Since you cannot "lock" turrets, it usually starts aiming all over the place when you do a mobile attack and often already ends up with the gun facing the wrong way. Because of the brilliant vehicle AI and especially the in my opinion awful retreat feature of vehicles, this could severely hamper it's ability to flank because an SPG will be a lot faster to turn it's hull than the M10 will be able to turn it's turret.
Anyway, we'll see, thanks for all the hard work and explanation!



TD´s do not auto aim anything except tanks (and vehicles?). So you can pass infantry without that gun aiming them. Also Wolverine has a much slower turret rotation already.
And when the word flanking is used people think on vcoh td style and believe that in reality allied td rushed along axis lines and turing their turrets on them. Thats not true. The TD doctrine wasnt meant to be an offensive one and instead developed to prevent german Blitzkrieg. Its a mobile force that should stop the tank spearhead when it broke through the main lines. Flanking was thus not like a rush on enemies trying to get their rear and instead attacking the tank spearhead from both directions. Thus the entire tank was already turned at the targets. M10´s aimed this way.


JimQwilleran wrote:Finally allies nerfs!


Cant see it :roll:

Shermans perhaps become a usefull combat unit. At least more on pair with tank IV. Its gun pen could be better against them but well. They become more expensive. But thats something i was always up for. Efficiency in trade for bit higher cost.

BAR´s cant suppress anymore in every doc? I saw only a few players using the ability at all. Funnily mostly the new "rookies" that made use of abilties and units the old elite never even thought about.

Accuracy nerf for Garand at max range? Well it used to be 18% standard (compared to 35% for volks and 45% for any other axis combat unit). A tiny decrease means what? 16% now? They will, as markr said, still be a threat to incoming inf rushes. Thus i dont think the complains will end after this change. But there wont be much to change anyway unless we turn the semi rifle back into a 18th century musket.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby The New BK Champion » 22 Mar 2018, 20:43

Warhawks97 wrote:BAR´s cant suppress anymore in every doc? I saw only a few players using the ability at all. Funnily mostly the new "rookies" that made use of abilties and units the old elite never even thought about.


The only funny thing is you saying you "saw something in game". We all know you don't play at all xD.

MarKr wrote:- Lowered range of T48 to 65 (from 75)
Removed "Hit and Run" ability from Wolverine
Removed "Hit and Run" ability from Achilles
RA Autocar barrage cost increased to 40 (from 25)
Lowered sight range of Stuart Recce to 40 (from 60)


If you can't see it, it's only because of your ignorance.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Mar 2018, 21:02

Lol.

I dont see the range change for the t48 not as a nerf but a fix. Same as it was with the most stupid ability in game: hit and run.

That the barrage costs 40, well, why is that a nerf really. It was just a super cheap arty option that was just forgotten long time back when barrages got cost increases. Idk if you remember but it used to be 35 for 105 mm arty. So i see that more as a adjustment from changes that were already made by old devs.

The Recce might be the only thing i could consider as nerf perhaps. But at the other hand its top mounted cal 50 is exactly twice as good as all the other top mounted US cal 50 as it has exactly twice the accuracy of US cal 50´s.


and i do play. Just i am pissed off to get asked all over the place everytime i start BK. I get asked when i get online in steam "do you play BK?". Mates want me to play always with them (although i prefer to see as many players as possible playing) and in internal battles. "Enemies" of me want me to proof whatever. Either often putting me with guys i´ve never seen before while they play allis with known people and using always RA doc and tripple brits and thus actually just showing their incapabilties to distinguish between "buffing allis" and "reworking US". I already had to face double RA doc just to show me how strong allies are and so on.

Whenever i get asked for games in steam i am just not playing. When i play with my main acc i do it in offline mode or simply using one where i dont have mates at all by purpose.
Not that i hate the dudes in my fl. Just once you get in a game with guys of the old bk players you just get all the others in quickly as well.


I am quite often surprised how many new players are actually arround in BK with whole different gamesytles and so on. And thats actually the most enjoyble way of playing BK. Not to know whats going to happen next. And its just a nice feeling to have players that do not stack at the same bullshit playing all the time using only units and tactics that are almost abusable or using certain unit functionalities of which only hardcore players are aware off.
In such games you really see which unit is working how good or bad when they are used by players that at best can expect the performance of a unit (perhaps based on historical knowlegde). In such games you dont always only see Recce/achilles/Crusader/Panther/Pershing/Hotchkiss/Hetzer/Priest/wespe/STGinf.
And abuses like aggressively engaging two 76 shermans with a single panzer IV doesnt happen bc these players dont know about the "minitiger" performence of tank IV´s. Its more driven my some sort of "sanity" and expectations rather than exact unit knowlegde and how to abuse certain units.

But whenever i am watching games here in forum as replay or in streams in steam i am often getting pissed off quickly. Like when there is "allis OP" and when you watch it you only see 2/3 or 3/4 of the team being brits and then typically RA/RAF/inf. And completely ignoring issues that are arround and present and real for some units, doctrines of factions. Its just not enjoyable.

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 22 Mar 2018, 21:23

@Nighthawk: There were complaints about Achilles being too versatile. Cheap, fast, strong gun, stun ability, HE ability,camo....Achilles is TD and should work primarily as ambush unit and from camo you can take your time with aiming. For direct attacking you can use Firefly or Comet.
Also both M10 (so Wolverine and Achilles) had in reality turret rotated by hand-crank and so the rotation was very slow. It is applied to Wolverine but for some reason it was not applied to Achilles...we still kept Achilles turret rotation a bit faster than Wolverine in order to not over-nerf it...
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Mar 2018, 23:15

Overall very interesting so far...
Glad to see many of the things that have been addressed here throughout several topics, are actually taken into consideration!

Though, I do have some questions and reservations.

- About the reload time adjustments; It "looks" more balanced this way between Pz4s and Shermans. However, I think 3 tanks in particular would be over-performing compared to these medium tanks; Firefly, Wolverine, and the Hellcat! They are still very fast firing.. right? There is a flaw then!
This means that right now they are even more capable of eliminating Pz4s, Stugs as well as Hetzers.
Specifically the Stug4 (when vet.1) and Hetzers, since they are TDs after all... Why should Hetzers and Stugs become even more inferior with their rate of fire compared to Firefly and Wolverine?? That's a flaw right there.

- Suppression ability vs tanks for LMGs at 60 range... Hmm, let's see how this would work.

- PIV H needs the "H" unlock (2CP)
- PIV J needs the "H" unlock + "Faster production; comes cheaper right away (3CP in total)
- Mass production makes "H" cheaper, does not affect cost of "J"

What does that mean? I mean... What is the price now?!

- Added "Fire smoke shell" ability to Wolverine (25 ammo)

Does this ability stun vehicles? Same as the one for Hellcat and Staghound? Or is it a regular smoke shell?

MarKr wrote:One of the changes is a reaction to posts where people said that Hetzer in ambush mode wrecks Pershings and other cases when a mid-tier TD from camo steam-rolled top-tier units. The bonuses that AT guns and TDs got for the first shot from camo varied a lot - usually they had bonuses to accuracy, penetratio and damage, but the ammount varied a lot; some had +50% damage, +25% accuracy and +200% penetration, some had these numbers inversed, some had completely different values, some received bonuses only in one or two of these "sections" some had these bonuses applied not only for the first shot but also for any shot that took place in the following 10 seconds...it was simply a mess that did not follow any logical pattern so now we have this unified.

Does this "unification" apply for all TDs on both sides? Axis and Allies? Plz clarify.

- What about the M3 US half-track with invisible troops inside btw? Can't seem to find anything about it on the change-log.. so I'm wondering if have u been able to finally find a solution to this bug or not yet?!

- I hoped to see some fix to the JagdPanther as well.. the cone of fire is just very misleading! It has to be more narrow, and the basic range could eventually increase from 65 to 70 but same range when ambushed without change, so it would be 75 range after camo.. as it is!
- Lastly, I also hoped that the Elefant basic range could increase from 65 to 70 and the static position ability should also - as a result - increase the range to 80 instead of currently 75 range. Keep in mind that the SP can reach 80 range with the command car...
And in addition to that, both the Elefant and JagdPanther could have more reload time.. from 5 seconds to 7 seconds on the other hand.

Nice changes to the 57mm half-track and everything else, though :)

|7th|Nighthawk wrote:Read all the way through it. They seem to be very sensible changes overall. The only thing I'm a bit sceptical about is the slower turret rotation on the Achilles. Since you cannot "lock" turrets, it usually starts aiming all over the place when you do a mobile attack and often already ends up with the gun facing the wrong way. Because of the brilliant vehicle AI and especially the in my opinion awful retreat feature of vehicles, this could severely hamper it's ability to flank because an SPG will be a lot faster to turn it's hull than the M10 will be able to turn it's turret.
Anyway, we'll see, thanks for all the hard work and explanation!

Achilles should not flank, it should ambush... And when revealed, use flank speed to run away! What is meant to flank, is the Comet.
Comet also has coaxial and hull MGs, they are pretty effective btw.. use the Comet to flank ;) Same way; u don't use Wolverine to flank, but Hellcat.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby ExE » 23 Mar 2018, 02:20

These are promising changes for sure!

Overall, the "Middle Ground" between the "Big buff/Nerf" seems good so far.

Although, some further tweaks in the details are needed, indeed.

The big one is Reload Time for sure;

I'll be glad if we see Shermans getting a more "competitive" role in the Armor combat down the road like Rifles/Rangers in the Inf Scene;

But for now, if the Medium tanks are gonna get an increased time for the reload, I guess some "proportional" change should be applied to the Bigger ones aswell.

That way the balance of "Obsolete/No role vs. Overperforming" won't go off the rails. A logical way of putting every tank in a "Tier/Caliber lvl" is needed.

Like the Pershing case described in the "Reasons for this big changes"; before it had no Adequate Role until the 90mm Buff was implemented; but that case was in Pen/Damage values.

With the implementation of the "Middle Ground" in Tank-on-Tank combat; now it comes down to "Who shoots first", and I think we can agree this new paradigm lead to a more "Cautious and Planned" aproach before the battle.

That being said, going back to the Reload Times, this is my view on how to deal with the balance; feel free to debate.

Warhawks's topic on "Armor Philosophy" viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2554

It's worth the read and we can make a case from all of the points discussed there;

- We need to take into consideration;

1- Range of the Gun.
2- Caliber/Damage/Pen Stats.
3- Time of Reload.

This 3 aspects should be in a proportional Ratio; with this in mind, the "Overperformance" Issue becomes clear.

Let's take the T48;

- It had more range, "1", to compensate the lack of pen chance, "2", it had against enemies; now with improved stats on the "2" aspect, there's no need for a big "1" aspect, and so on... Now aspect "3" comes to the scene.

That's the topic we need to discuss for now;

Come up with an "Equation" to get the "Sweet Spot" between this 3 variables with each Tank in its respective Tier and Role. :lol:

Again, Overall, these are good implementations and I'm looking foward to see the still W.I.P. Doctrinal Reworks. 8-)

*Note; Can we get Mofeta's idea in this changelog viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2530

In short, You can have the SP ONCE, if destroyed, You get a Pershing Ace afterward in the Call-in.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/ExE95/

Praise be to the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 23 Mar 2018, 09:47

@Warhawks: the reload times of hevier stuff will remain as it is for now.

Warhawks97 wrote:2. The suppression thing for lmgs. I see it has 60 range. So basically any CW or PE inf squad with lmg would be able suppress any tank anytime for just 10 ammo and giving them massive penalties. That means that HE tanks with their limited range would be always affected by them.

I know that CW and PE units with lmg are costly units and thus rare on the field. Its just something that caught my attention.
Yes, though the Bren upgrade costs 55 ammo, the LMG upgrade for Assault Grens costs 100 ammo so to equip them is quite expensive. The numbers can be tweaked though, if the ability proves to be too strrong or weak we can adjust cooldown, price or stats accordingly.

Warhawks97 wrote:Accuracy nerf for Garand at max range? Well it used to be 18% standard (compared to 35% for volks and 45% for any other axis combat unit). A tiny decrease means what? 16% now? They will, as markr said, still be a threat to incoming inf rushes.
The accuracy went down iirc by 3% or 4%. Garands will still have upper hand at closer ranges but this should give put the odds more to the side of Axis when they fight on longer ranges...I mean IF players actually start doing that.

Tiger1996 wrote:It "looks" more balanced this way between Pz4s and Shermans. However, I think 3 tanks in particular would be over-performing compared to these medium tanks; Firefly, Wolverine, and the Hellcat! They are still very fast firing.. right?
Right.
Tiger1996 wrote:There is a flaw then!
No, there isn't.

Tiger1996 wrote:This means that right now they are even more capable of eliminating Pz4s, Stugs as well as Hetzers.
You might wanna count in more aspects than pure rate of fire. Maybe damage, penetration chances and armor on both sides could also a play role? How many times have you seen a shot from Wolverine or Hellcat bounce off of PIV, StuG or Hetzer? Hellcat vs PIV H at max range has 49% chance of penetration, vs StuG III/IV it is about 70%, vs Hetzer it is 54% (and also are harder to hit). Now how many times have you seen any of these units bounce off of M10, M18 or Firefly? There is guaranteed penetration vs M18, vs M10 it is at about 95%, Firefly (Shermans in general) around 80%. So I don't see a problem here. They can shoot faster but also die faster if the opponent returns fire. Maybe the Firefly RoF could be changed but then again - Firefly will most likely one-shot any medium-tier units while it can die just as easily to them so it more likely about "who will land the first shot", also Firefly is meant to counter even heavy units and longer reload times would hinder their efficiency in this role.

Tiger1996 wrote:What does that mean? I mean... What is the price now?!
Right now the PIVJ in BK doc is unlocked with the "PIV H" unlock and with Massproduction both H and J versions get cheaper. With this change J will be unlocked with lower price and this price will not further drop. The J version became so cheap that it could be spammed a lot more than intended.

Tiger1996 wrote:Does this ability stun vehicles? Same as the one for Hellcat and Staghound? Or is it a regular smoke shell?
Regular smoke shell. You can shoot it on enemy vehicle to cover your retreat, or at an emplacement/AT gun to lower their accuracy and allow you to advance...it has more tactical usages but it is up to players what they will use it for...or if they will use it at all :D

Tiger1996 wrote:Does this "unification" apply for all TDs on both sides? Axis and Allies? Plz clarify.
I just wrote in there that the camo bonuses were completely nuts across the board...why would it be unified only for some and the mess intentionally kept for some others? :D

Tiger1996 wrote:Lastly, I also hoped that the Elefant basic range could increase from 65 to 70 and the static position ability should also - as a result - increase the range to 80 instead of currently 75 range. Keep in mind that the SP can reach 80 range with the command car...
And in addition to that, both the Elefant and JagdPanther could have more reload time.. from 5 seconds to 7 seconds on the other hand.
No.
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Mar 2018, 13:07

No, there isn't.

No man, i think there is... Here is why I think so;
You might wanna count in more aspects than pure rate of fire. Maybe damage, penetration chances and armor on both sides could also a play role? How many times have you seen a shot from Wolverine or Hellcat bounce off of PIV, StuG or Hetzer? Hellcat vs PIV H at max range has 49% chance of penetration, vs StuG III/IV it is about 70%, vs Hetzer it is 54% (and also are harder to hit). Now how many times have you seen any of these units bounce off of M10, M18 or Firefly? There is guaranteed penetration vs M18, vs M10 it is at about 95%, Firefly (Shermans in general) around 80%. So I don't see a problem here. They can shoot faster but also die faster if the opponent returns fire. Maybe the Firefly RoF could be changed but then again - Firefly will most likely one-shot any medium-tier units while it can die just as easily to them so it more likely about "who will land the first shot", also Firefly is meant to counter even heavy units and longer reload times would hinder their efficiency in this role.

You increased the reload times for Pz4s in order to match 76 Shermans, no problem there.. but then however, u went further and also increased the reload times of Stugs and Hetzers as well as all other tanks with L/48 cannons. And you justified this saying that it's because they all have the same gun... While I'm not sure if I need to remind you with the fact that Wolverines and Hellcats also have the same cannon as 76 Shermans btw! So, if u increase the reload time for Axis TDs (Hetzers, Stugs and JagdPanzer L/48) then u would have to do the same for Allied TDs as well such as Wolverine, Hellcat and Firefly. Otherwise you might create new balance problems...

I mean that you can't just pick some particular units randomly and decide that they are an exception based on your own preferences rather than a clear principle. Firefly has dangerous gun and long range.. combine that with high rate of fire and at the same time less rate of fire for Axis counterparts!
It's a disaster... Even with 5 seconds reload time for Stugs, the Firefly would be already the winner most of the times.
Also, the Wolverine and Hellcat have better mobility.. so they have more chances to escape, mobility can be already an alternative, instead of good Armor. So there is no need for them to also reload faster compared to Axis counterparts.

Right now the PIVJ in BK doc is unlocked with the "PIV H" unlock and with Massproduction both H and J versions get cheaper. With this change J will be unlocked with lower price and this price will not further drop. The J version became so cheap that it could be spammed a lot more than intended.

Ok, that's good then.

No.

Providing some reasons would be nice... Elefant is never a valuable unit in the majority of PvP games.. and JagdPanther simply has misleading cone of fire that is supposed to be fixed.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Mar 2018, 13:25

@Markr: With that unification thing for ambushes: Will the M36 get finally the +5 range? Its the only TD in game that hasnt this feature.

Also whats the intention to keep the heavy guns shooting that quick? They have range, pen, damage all in their favour now. It will enforce the already existing run for those units the combine all advantages. Just take a look at hetzer, Jagdpanzer Iv and Jagdpanther. The Jagdpanther might be more expensive but in relation to the previous two tanks its cheap. It has the best mobility over the hetzer/IV/70, most range and damage, has so far the best survivability due to its 1000 HP and armor, has the lowest received damage from arty and can use smoke for free (the only tank in game) while hetzer and IV/70 have no smoke at all. It also has that veterancy long range shot and now it will also bypass any lower tier tank in terms of rate of fire by a large margin? The Jagdpanther becomes not only the best counter to heavy allied tanks but also the best in countering stuart tank spam tactics.
That linked with the firefly reload speed when you say it shall also be able to counter heavies: If these would get a longer reload time as well in relation then 7-8 seconds for a firefly wouldnt look that bad. Perhaps it costs could drop to approx 500 MP if you think the firefly would become bad in cost-efficiency ratio.

I just dont get the intention behind that.



As for the smoke stunning shot. We have had some complains about it that it doesnt really work as it should as the unit still returns accurately fire. Does these shots will get any kind of "fix" in this matter?

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 23 Mar 2018, 13:45

Tiger1996 wrote:You increased the reload times for Pz4s in order to match 76 Shermans, no problem there.. but then however, u went further and also increased the reload times of Stugs and Hetzers as well as all other tanks with L/48 cannons. And you justified this saying that it's because they all have the same gun... While I'm not sure if I need to remind you with the fact that Wolverines and Hellcats also have the same cannon as 76 Shermans btw! So, if u increase the reload time for Axis TDs (Hetzers, Stugs and JagdPanzer L/48) then u would have to do the same for Allied TDs as well such as Wolverine, Hellcat and Firefly. Otherwise you might create new balance problems...

I mean that you can't just pick some particular units randomly and decide that they are an exception based on your own preferences rather than a clear principle. Firefly has dangerous gun and long range.. combine that with high rate of fire and at the same time less rate of fire for Axis counterparts! It's a disaster... Even with 5 seconds reload time for Stugs, the Firefly would be already the winner most of the times.
Also, the Wolverine and Hellcat have better mobility.. so they have more chances to escape, mobility can be already an alternative, instead of good Armor. So there is no need for them to also reload faster compared to Axis counterparts.

While I'm not sure if I need to remind you that Wolverine uses 3inch (76mm/L40) M5 cannon while Hellcat uses 76mm (L52) M1 cannon so they are not the same.
Furthermore Hetzers and JPIVs are hardly "counterparts" to M10 and M18 - the Axis TDs are harder to hit, have stronger armor, stronger gun and more HP. So yeah, maybe M10/M18 reload in 4.2 seconds and Hetzers and other stuff with 75mm L48 reloads in 7 seconds but what will happen if they meet in combat?
1) M10/M18 shoots at Hetzer. They are likely to miss due to Hetzer's armor type. If they miss they deal no damage, if they hit, they are more likely to bounce off; depending on damage roll the Hetzer can still survive penetrative hit
2) Hetzer shoots at M10/M18: No penalty to accuracy, so it is more likely to hit, if it hits the armor on M10/M18 gets always penetrated and because M10/M18 have lower HP they are less likely to survive the hit.
(It is very similar with other Axis units you mention - PIV H/J are even less likely to get penetrated, StuG is more likely but they still have armor and firepower advantage)
So what is the "balance problem" you speak about? From my perspective it would actually cause more balance issues to make it your way because it would be a serious nerf for M10 and M18.
Though I guess the reload time could be an exception for Marder III and Geschutzwagen too as they also have weak armor and so they are on similar level with M10/M18.

Tiger1996 wrote:Providing some reasons would be nice... Elefant is never a valuable unit in the majority of PvP games.. and JagdPanther simply has misleading cone of fire that is supposed to be fixed.
Elephant will get some changes in doctrinal rework so no need to change it now.
As for JP - yeah, the symbolized cone of can be misleading, it is not gamebreaking but yeah, no problem there. Then you say that it should have more range because....yeah, just because. Really, why? It has strong armor, good speed, strong gun, can ambush and has an ability that lets it one-shot any tank so no need to increase its range.
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Mar 2018, 14:50

While I'm not sure if I need to remind you that Wolverine uses 3inch (76mm/L40) M5 cannon while Hellcat uses 76mm (L52) M1 cannon so they are not the same.

Well, but that's just more like the difference between the Axis 75mm L/43 gun for Pz4.F2, and the 75mm L/48 gun for Hetzer and Stug.
They have the same performance pretty much both in reality and in game... And the same applies for the Wolverine and Hellcat cannons.

So what is the "balance problem" you speak about? From my perspective it would actually cause more balance issues to make it your way because it would be a serious nerf for M10 and M18.

I did not suggest that the Wolverine and Hellcat should have more reload time, as I would rather suggest to keep Stugs and Hetzers reload untouched.
My point is; It's probably fine to increase the reload time for Pz4s to match 76 Shermans.. but Hetzers and Stugs don't have to reload slower as well, this way the Firefly is just way superior! Also the Wolverine and Hellcat still have an edge to their favor, thanks to mobility and high rate of fire.
Though I guess the reload time could be an exception for Marder III and Geschutzwagen too as they also have weak armor and so they are on similar level with M10/M18.

At least include the Stug3 there as an exception as well.. it's not a TD even, yet though... I think this is still getting a little bit too "picky" based on personal preferences or without a clear principle provided. I mean yes! It definitely makes sense to have the Marder3 and Marder1 as well as the Geschutswagen reload times untouched just like Wolverine and Hellcat.. but then again they have the same gun, so it's weird.

As for JP - yeah, the symbolized cone of can be misleading, it is not gamebreaking but yeah, no problem there. Then you say that it should have more range because....yeah, just because. Really, why? It has strong armor, good speed, strong gun, can ambush and has an ability that lets it one-shot any tank so no need to increase its range.

By taking a deeper look into the suggestion; Less cone of fire, and "slightly" more range but then "slightly" more reload time as well...
Range would only increase from 65 to 70 as a result of having significantly more narrow cone of fire.. not to mention the reload would also eventually increase from 5 seconds to 7 seconds in return! So, it's not a buff but rather an adjustment. Also, that's the same gun as Elefant and King Tiger so it would make sense if they would all have the same range after all.
That's basically what Warhawks also said about Firefly and JagdPanther reload times btw, of which I agree.

Also, about the TD ambush bonus unification; I think the Jackson is able to shoot several times in less than 3 seconds reload as long as the targeted enemy tank is below 30 range... I wonder if this has also changed?

And btw, I think the Jackson has 65 basic range so that's why it doesn't get range bonus from ambush.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Mar 2018, 15:32

Tiger1996 wrote:I did not suggest that the Wolverine and Hellcat should have more reload time, as I would rather suggest to keep Stugs and Hetzers reload untouched.


They are untouched. Stugs have 7 seconds since the existence of BK.


My point is; It's probably fine to increase the reload time for Pz4s to match 76 Shermans.. but Hetzers and Stugs don't have to reload slower as well, this way the Firefly is just way superior! Also the Wolverine and Hellcat still have an edge to their favor, thanks to mobility and high rate of fire.



I agree with the firefly compared to 76 sherman/Tank IV/hetzer/stugs etc. But Hellcat and Wolverine need to be fast if they want to stand any chance. Their pen doesnt get buffed and they are not typicall oneshot-units.



At least include the Stug3 there as an exception as well.. it's not a TD even, yet though... I think this is still getting a little bit too "picky" based on personal preferences or without a clear principle provided. I mean yes! It definitely makes sense to have the Marder3 and Marder1 as well as the Geschutswagen reload times untouched just like Wolverine and Hellcat.. but then again they have the same gun, so it's weird.


The stug III is supposed to fight together with infantry rather than counter tank unit. Its cheaper as any other tank, esspecially when shermans will become more expensive now. So you can literally outspam regualr shermans with stug III´s. They do well when used with infantry, esspecially stormtroopers. They can lay down smoke immediatly for low cost at any point arround the tank. They have lock down ability and timed HE.
The stugs worked, no matter if we keep the 7 sec or or not.

Markr wrote:As for JP - yeah, the symbolized cone of can be misleading, it is not gamebreaking but yeah, no problem there. Then you say that it should have more range because....yeah, just because. Really, why? It has strong armor, good speed, strong gun, can ambush and has an ability that lets it one-shot any tank so no need to increase its range.


In exchange for an ambush shot, cone of fire change and reload speed. Emphasizing more the offensive role. A ranged knock out tank.... kind of that.


Tiger1996 wrote:Also, about the TD ambush bonus unification; I think the Jackson is able to shoot several times in less than 3 seconds reload as long as the targeted enemy tank is below 30 range... I wonder if this has also changed?


Never experienced that? Perhaps max vet, max vet commander and ambush boni? Markr said something about some tds having messed up boost durations after the first ambush shot.

And btw, I think the Jackson has 65 basic range so that's why it doesn't get range bonus from ambush.


Eh, nope? :shock:

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Mar 2018, 15:44

They are untouched. Stugs have 7 seconds since the existence of BK.

Oh? Are u sure about that? Hmm, is it the ambush ability and static position that increases the rate of fire then? I'm confused here :?
Perhaps I missed something, but I think my Stugs always had rate of fire advantage vs Shermans...

I agree with the firefly compared to 76 sherman/Tank IV/hetzer/stugs etc. But Hellcat and Wolverine need to be fast if they want to stand any chance. Their pen doesnt get buffed and they are not typicall oneshot-units.

Ya, I would never suggest to increase the reload time of Wolverine and Hellcats.. but like I said, I'm more concerned about Hetzers and Stug.
Glad we agree about the Firefly.

The stug III is supposed to fight together with infantry rather than counter tank unit. Its cheaper as any other tank, esspecially when shermans will become more expensive now. So you can literally outspam regualr shermans with stug III´s. They do well when used with infantry, esspecially stormtroopers. They can lay down smoke immediatly for low cost at any point arround the tank. They have lock down ability and timed HE.
The stugs worked, no matter if we keep the 7 sec or or not.

Maybe you are right.

In exchange for an ambush shot, cone of fire change and reload speed. Emphasizing more the offensive role. A ranged knock out tank.... kind of that.

Yup, that's exactly what I told MarKr... ;)

Never experienced that? Perhaps max vet, max vet commander and ambush boni? Markr said something about some tds having messed up boost durations after the first ambush shot.

I'm pretty sure about this one as I have experienced it a lot of times.. not exactly sure how it was able to do that though.

Eh, nope? :shock:

Almost sure about this one too, we can test it together if u want ^^

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Mar 2018, 20:38

Tiger1996 wrote:Oh? Are u sure about that? Hmm, is it the ambush ability and static position that increases the rate of fire then? I'm confused here :?
Perhaps I missed something, but I think my Stugs always had rate of fire advantage vs Shermans...


Yes. The reload times from most if not all tanks has been taken from vcoh. But i was ok regarding stug bc its simply cheap, has usefull abilities to increase the rof and range and cost no cp. The Jagdpanther shot so fast bc it was a one time call in with penalties for the player when it got called such as massive MP income drop for the next 3 mins. Old devs simpy implemented many of these "Elite Status" features from vcoh into BK where these units were changed into "normal units" while keeping these superior stats. Thats why Jagdpanther has these HP, that arty damage resistance and this extremely fast reload.



Tiger1996 wrote:Almost sure about this one too, we can test it together if u want ^^


No need to. Trust me. I know all reload speeds from all common tanks, AT guns and also the guns ranges. I can for example tell you that emplaced AT guns have 80 range compared to 75 of regular AT guns (perhaps the normal Pak43 has 80 as well).

And Jacks has 60. I used that tank a billion times. I never could shoot at something before it shoot at me unless i used command vehicle or B version static mode.
Thus i can also tell you that this tank has worse ambush bonuses than most other TD´s. Only Nashorn boosts are worse currently. But that gets fixed and i am extremely happy about that. If it would then also get the standard range boost, that would be great.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 23 Mar 2018, 20:55

Well, about the JagdPanther... I think the HP and arty resistant are both fine, at least for the current price of this tank.. however; I can definitely agree that the reload time is way too low! And ya, therefore we come up with the cone of fire suggestion; so I just hope that MarKr understands how we want slightly more basic range in exchange for less cone of fire, and more reload time, maybe also only 1 shot from ambush then become revealed.


I'm pretty sure the Jackson killed a Tiger ACE recently in one of my games with 3 shots in less than 5 seconds, the Tiger was too close to the jackson though... The jackson fired 1st time, went revealed for 1 second.. then disappeared and quickly fired the 2nd and the 3rd in the row!!! 1st hit the Tiger HP was halved, 2nd hit the main gun was destroyed and 3rd hit the Tiger was knocked out.. all that in less than 5 seconds, it really happened.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 23 Mar 2018, 23:11

Warhawks97 wrote:I just dont get the intention behind that.
How will increasing reload speeds on heavy tanks help here? You want people to use more the medium tanks, medium tanks cannot go vs heavies in 1v1 so you will always need at least 2v1 but 3v1 is definately safer bet. Even if you go 2v1 then in the first 7 seconds of the encounter the heavy tank is getting shot at twice (each tank shoots once) while the heavy shoots once. So if you bring more medium tanks vs lesser number of heavy tanks then you already fire more shots at opponent than he fires back at you. The medium tanks (especially on US) have quite bad penetration vs Axis heavies but if they start shooting as fast as Garands (exageration intended) then some of the shots will penetrate heavies and so the efficiency of heavies will go down and there will be little sense in using them. Then, in order to keep them viable we will either need to lower their costs or increase efficiency again...

As for the Firefly - it has reload time could be fixed to 6 seconds, which is 1 second less than US Shermans and (give or take) one second more than Axis heavies. Most tanks reload times are the same no matter how far the target is but Firefly reloads faster when the target is further, this could be removed, or at least tweaked, I guess.

Warhawks97 wrote:As for the smoke stunning shot. We have had some complains about it that it doesnt really work as it should as the unit still returns accurately fire. Does these shots will get any kind of "fix" in this matter?
I will have a look at it...
EDIT:
From what I found so far, it should work...the vehicle after taking hit should have for 8 seconds accuracy, movement speed and turret rotation speed lowered by 90%. However the "smoke" effect sticks around for 15 seconds so it can be visually misleading, I guess.... :?
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Mar 2018, 00:40

MarKr wrote:How will increasing reload speeds on heavy tanks help here? You want people to use more the medium tanks, medium tanks cannot go vs heavies in 1v1 so you will always need at least 2v1 but 3v1 is definately safer bet. Even if you go 2v1 then in the first 7 seconds of the encounter the heavy tank is getting shot at twice (each tank shoots once) while the heavy shoots once. So if you bring more medium tanks vs lesser number of heavy tanks then you already fire more shots at opponent than he fires back at you. The medium tanks (especially on US) have quite bad penetration vs Axis heavies but if they start shooting as fast as Garands (exageration intended) then some of the shots will penetrate heavies and so the efficiency of heavies will go down and there will be little sense in using them. Then, in order to keep them viable we will either need to lower their costs or increase efficiency again...


In order to achieve this you have to send three tanks as the first will be dead right at the start of the battle.

What i meant is that it would simply be a long term strategic decision for what you want to spend your ressources for. Like when you expect some kind of spam of weak armored units your decision would be to use a smaller gun with higher rof and vise versa. That way it could be a very decisive decision whether to spend all ressources into heavier guns which enables you do deal with any threat but the ammount of targets that can be possibly killed in a given time is lower or the other way arround. In this coming situations going for heavy guns will still be "always the better option".

Like when you expect lots of recces and stuarts you would go for 50 mm instead of a pak 43 as you can engage them in a shorter time. Its like the heaviest AT guns would have the highest rof while the smallest have the lowest.


As for the Firefly - it has reload time could be fixed to 6 seconds, which is 1 second less than US Shermans and (give or take) one second more than Axis heavies. Most tanks reload times are the same no matter how far the target is but Firefly reloads faster when the target is further, this could be removed, or at least tweaked, I guess.


Why making things even more complicate? Static modes always lower reload time. Thats a cruical part of the game to decide at the right time which ability to use.

I will have a look at it...
EDIT:
From what I found so far, it should work...the vehicle after taking hit should have for 8 seconds accuracy, movement speed and turret rotation speed lowered by 90%. However the "smoke" effect sticks around for 15 seconds so it can be visually misleading, I guess.... :?


Perhaps, yeah.

does this smoke effect provides at the same time the smoke_cover bonuses?

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Tiger1996
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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 24 Mar 2018, 00:44

Just tested the Jackson with Erelas.

And guess what.. the Jackson has more range than Panthers and Tigers... I asked him to activate his direct fire ability and tell me when my tank is in his range so he can shoot or not! I was able to shoot him, and he was not able to shoot me somehow!!! However, only if I drive exactly 2 cm closer.. he would be then able to shoot me back. SO, that's like what? 63 range? or 62? I can tell it's not exactly 65 though.. but it's weird.

About ambush bonus, perhaps I failed to test that properly... I was never able to get my jackson to shoot twice in the row at close range, nonetheless;
I'm pretty sure that I have seen it happening, not sure under what circumstances exactly though.


MarKr wrote:As for the Firefly - it has reload time could be fixed to 6 seconds, which is 1 second less than US Shermans and (give or take) one second more than Axis heavies. Most tanks reload times are the same no matter how far the target is but Firefly reloads faster when the target is further, this could be removed, or at least tweaked, I guess.

More reload time would be fine for the Firefly for sure, and higher rate of fire the further the target goes? Sounds really strange! I think this could be tweaked to the contrary, I mean it should be the other way around.. higher rate of fire the closer the target comes... Or ya, maybe even removed.

Also, how do u think now about the JagdPanther cone of fire suggestion after we have clarified it?
Just less cone of fire, and in return slightly more range as well as slightly more reload time too...

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 24 Mar 2018, 01:20

Warhawks97 wrote:In order to achieve this you have to send three tanks as the first will be dead right at the start of the battle.
And if it is made the way you want it will end up the same - you come with 3 units and one will always die.
Currently: Sherman reload = 7 sec.; Tiger reload = 6 sec.
So in a battle:
1) Once all tanks are in range Tiger will fire, most likely kills one Sherman; Shermans fire (2 or 3 shots, depending if the destroyed Sherman manages to fire beafore dead) most likely don't kill the Tiger
2) After 6 seconds Tiger shoots again, destroys another Sherman; second later last Sherman shoots (depending on position maybe it will penetrate, most likely won't kill the Tiger)
3) After 6 seconds Tiger shoots again, destroys last Sherman.

If we do it your way (reverse the reload times):
1) Once all tanks are in range Tiger will fire, most likely kills one Sherman; Shermans fire (2 or 3 shots, depending if the destroyed Sherman manages to fire beafore dead) most likely don't kill the Tiger
2) After 6 seconds Shermans shoot again (depending on position maybe one will penetrate, most likely won't kill the Tiger); second later Tiger shoots, destroys another Sherman; Tiger starts turning towards the remaining Sherman to lower the chance of getting rear-shot
3) After 6 seconds Sherman shoots again, most likely does not penetrate because Tiger turned to face it with frontal armor; Tiger shoots, destroys last Sherman.

So unless the medium tanks get changed to shoot significantly faster, then the difference will not really be much noticeable and I don't think it is a good idea to make medium tanks reload in 3 seconds. Even if so, then the heavy tanks would be way less effective and we would need to rework them all too. I also don't think that players would choose building 50mm guns (so pretty much either the AT gun or Puma) vs Recce or Stuart spam, when Puma and PaK38 can be destroyed by these units much easier than a heavy tanks which are invulnerable to .50cals and very hard to penetrate by 37mm guns.

Why making things even more complicate? Static modes always lower reload time. Thats a cruical part of the game to decide at the right time which ability to use.
I am confused now...At first you say that you agree with Tiger. Tiger said that if Axis medium tanks reload slower, then Firefly should reload slower too because it if it keeps reloading in 4 seconds, it has advantage. I said that the reload times of Firefly could be longer (so exactly what you were talking about) and I'm making it "too complicated"? :?

does this smoke effect provides at the same time the smoke_cover bonuses?
Yes, it does.

Tiger1996 wrote:AAlso, how do u think now about the JagdPanther cone of fire suggestion after we have clarified it?
I don't think it is needed.
Image

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 24 Mar 2018, 07:15

MarKr wrote:I don't think it is needed.

Well, since i'm aware it's not so much of a big deal anyway, then I wouldn't really want to push it any further.. however, I would still just like to share with you the following photo; of which is meant to demonstrate the suggestion in a very simple way...

Image

It's not a top priority of course.. yet, I think it would be nice if the JagdPanther would be changed accordingly.

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Re: 5.1.4 preview

Postby MarKr » 24 Mar 2018, 11:57

ExE wrote:In short, You can have the SP ONCE, if destroyed, You get a Pershing Ace afterward in the Call-in.
Sorry, forgot to answer - maybe this will be implemented, we haven't decided yet. But it surely will not be part of the 5.1.4 update.
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