4.9.9 Patch Preview

[Krieger Blitzer]

Looks like I have a new suggestion...

But first let's keep in mind these current facts:
- Panther.D requires 5 CP, same as Pershing and Terror doc Tiger.
- Panther.A requires 6 CP, same as Comet and JagdPanther.
- Panther.G requires 7 CP, same as 76 Jumbo of Armor doc.
- Blitz doc Tiger requires 4 CP, same as Jacksons.
- SP requires 9 CP, same as Pershing Ace and Tiger Ace as well as Elephant.
- JagdTiger requires 10 CP.
- Croc requires 8 CP.
- King Tiger requires 11 CP.
- SturmTiger requires 7 CP.

The few things I highlighted, are going to be affected with my following suggestion.. however; it's probably worth to notify that both these suggestions are greatly connected/related to each other.

I have actually addressed this matter before in another topic, however; I honestly felt like I needed to do it again but this time with more clarification(s).
1st suggestion:

Terror doc change.

SturmTiger is available after only 7 CP, which I consider to be a little bit too early to be honest. And the KT is available too late, while I also don't understand why the Terror doc Tiger requires 5 CP, although the Blitz doc Tiger is available 1 CP earlier.. being a much better version as well.

Nonetheless, as a result to this change... I am aware that this way Panther.G would be also made available 1 CP earlier.. therefore I would suggest this small modification to Armor doc as well:

2nd suggestion:

Armor doc change.

I have surely used a screen shot of the new Armor doc tech tree from this change-log.
This would allow Jumbo earlier available by 1 CP too, obviously from 7 CP to 6 CP. And the Calliope Sherman would be available after only 4 CP instead of 5 CP. Not to mention that the mass production unlock of Shermans would only require 2 CP instead of 3 CP.
Which is also something that could add some more flexibility to Armor doc!

[Warhawks97]

Lol.- 2 cp for massproduction.

srly. how much sense makes it. I wouldnt mind for jumbo or calli coming earlier. But 2 CP for mass prod. I mean why? You gain nothing from it.

Meanwhile that vehicle cap, which is sometimes a huge reason why i go armor when there is a situation that allows me to quickly get points. If anything armor has usefull in the early stages then its this ability.

I would rather see the mass prod somewhere in a line independent from the sherman line. Somehow connected to the increased production speed.
production speed, mass prod, repairs, war machine and ammo. That should be one independet bunch somehow connected to each other. The cap moves alone to lower left corner and sherman 76 unlock, calli and jumbo independent. Coz people that go for the special sherman variants dont go for it bc they think simply more shermans can solve the problem they want to address, they do it bc they think that these special tools can bring solutions. Faster production speed makes sense in line with mass production bc the approach towards problems is to get more units quickly and replacments. Thats the "Quantity" branch which is complete the contrary to the actual "using special version" branch.
That bugs me actually. I am forced to make stuff cheaper which i dont want and wont help to get the special tools.
But the def doc tree is the same mess. For getting anti defense units i have to go for tankbusters first. Sort of such unlock lines do not help players.
For The Luftwaffe i find another example. Why are sd2 bombs required when i need 88 guns? Wouldnt it make more sense when 88 would be connected to the Luftwaffe pioneer unlock? And sd2 somehow to the air support unlock line?

That are a few "unlock order whishes" from my side. Connect what belongs together.

My main concern is: Dont increase vehicle cap to two CP. This is a card which is most effective when outplayed early.

[Medic Truck]

Nah.

The earlier mass production makes no sense. The Raid is a perfect tool where it is at present.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Waaait, i dont have access to a game, so i cant check it myself, but what is mass production and what is production speed?i thought it's the same thing.., no?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Waaait, i dont have access to a game, so i cant check it myself, but what is mass production and what is production speed?i thought it's the same thing.., no?

Check the pic...
Fast production unlock increases the speed of which your tanks are produced from the tank depot, right below the Pershing unlock.
The mass production unlock on the other hand.. is right above the Calliope unlock, which is about reducing the price of Shermans.

Lol.- 2 cp for massproduction.

Hmm, I can't really get what's so funny about 2 CP for Mass Production instead of 3 CP currently... I mean, what's exactly "nonsense" about having cheaper Shermans straight away while delaying the vehicles cap unlock just by 1 CP in return?
Specifically when we would also have earlier Calliope and Jumbo.
Of which you stated:

I wouldnt mind for jumbo or calli coming earlier. But 2 CP for mass prod. I mean why? You gain nothing from it.

What you gain; is earlier Calliope, earlier Jumbo and cheaper Shermans right away! Which you apparently don't mind after all.

[Warhawks97]

Dude. This means that you prepare the doc for a late game. I think one of the major bonuses is that if you had a good start you can map controle quickly. 2 CP would ruin it. if we do it its true, i will need the calli etc earlier.

And 2cp is funny coz at the time you would be able to unlock it there is no tank depot up. Besides that you will get what? 3 shermans and the upkeep kills you. So you are upgrading supply yard first anyways before any "mass production". Untill that you got enough CPs anyway if you are still alive.

And if we would link up the mass-prod somehow with the fast prod speed (eg 1 CP faster prod, 1 or 2 Cp mass prod) then calli would come earlier as well without unlocking mass prod at a stage where it makes you gain nothing.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So, I've by myself managed to re-design\re-work Armor doc accordingly to what you said: (or at least as close as I possibly could...)

I would rather see the mass prod somewhere in a line independent from the sherman line. Somehow connected to the increased production speed.
production speed, mass prod, repairs, war machine and ammo. That should be one independet bunch somehow connected to each other. The cap moves alone to lower left corner and sherman 76 unlock, calli and jumbo independent.

So, have a look at this:

Re-worked Armor doc tech tree, by me!

This way we have Jumbo for 6 CP, instead of 7 CP. And now the Mass Production unlock is right below the fast production unlock!

And we still surely have 30 total command points.

If you like this new look for Armor doc, would this other suggestion about Terror doc be fine as well?
Let me know what u think, Hawks

Edit:
It's worth to mention that I had to update the image due to a mistake.

Also, I am not sure if it should be like this:
- Fast Production (1 CP) -> Mass Production (1 CP) -> Ammo Reserve (2 CP)
Or just same as it is on the picture currently, which is:
- Fast prodcution (1 CP) -> Mass Production (2 CP) -> Ammo Reserve (1 CP)

The first option might be better in my humble opinion, because.. actually the way how it is currently on the picture, means that the mass production requires 4 CP and not just 3 CP btw! Because you still need the Sherman unlock which is more 1 CP. Obviously the mass production unlock is useless without unlocking Shermans first...

[Panzerblitz1]

its starting to be very fashion to redo all doctrines now, so i had to make mine as well... just for balance reasons of course.

[sgtToni95]

LoL

[Warhawks97]

@Tiger. Doesnt look bad either. I never resisted your terror doc changes.
Ammo supply and war machine makes more sense being together. They are probably supposed to work in conjunction. Ammo upgrades spares the ammo required to use war machine.

@Panzerblitz. Lol. I would unlock chuck norris first and then rambo. Both should be in one branch. If you remember movies like missing in action and rambo. I do think they would be logical to be put together. But i would maybe take away 0.5 CP from sherman unlock and would add it to chuck norris because he is quite strong already.

[Panzerblitz1]

Lol

[Krieger Blitzer]

Alright then, looks like we have an agreement!

But regarding Ammo Reserve unlock, Hawks. It's too hard to replace it being together with War Machine... Or where would vehicles cap go? Would it be a dependent unlock next to the mass production unlock? Well, sounds legit.. but what about the ammo reserve unlock then?? Should it be at the end of the War Machine line together with Global Repair? Or at the beginning of the line? If it's at the beginning, this way the Ammo Reserve would be available too early.. and obviously the devs don't want that:

We don't want to make the ammo unlock available sooner, it was placed where it is for a reason.

And if it were to be at the end of the line, this way the Global repair would be available too soon...
Which is - again - not supposed to be.

So, I think Ammo Reserve after mass production still makes sense for sure.. you unlock "mass" production for your Shermans then you "mass" upgrade all of them with both AP and HE rounds
And vehicles cap make sense with Global Repair and War Machine, since that all the 3 unlocks are about improving ur "vehicles"

But now, I would like to know what do devs think about this new tech tree of Armor doc? Can you please carefully compare this tech tree to the other Armor doc tech tree of which u have on the change-log, and then honestly tell us which one you actually think is better? ^^

Final look of Armor doc tech tree.

Note: this pic is exactly the same as the one I posted above, however.. the only difference is that I managed to make Ammo Reserve require 2 CP instead of 1 CP and in return the Mass Production require 1 CP instead of 2 CP on the other hand.

So, in total the Mass Production would require 3 CP only:
Which are: Fast Production 1 CP + Mass Production 1 CP + Sherman unlock 1 CP = 3 CP.
Keeping in mind that currently in the game the mass production already require 3 CP as well, so I didn't want to increase it to 4 total CP for no real reason. If I kept that way: Fast Production 1 CP + Mass Production 2 CP + Sherman unlock 1 CP = would be 4 CP then.
And the reason I am calculating the Sherman unlock together with Mass Production unlock even though they are not on the same line, is because:

Obviously the mass production unlock is useless without unlocking Shermans first...

And also, what do devs think about this change too?

Terror doc change.

This change of Terror doc is related to the Armor doc change for sure, the idea is to allow earlier Jumbo by 1 CP, while also making the Armor doc tech tree more simple and better organized overall.
This would also allow KT earlier by 1 CP (from currently 11 CP to 10 CP) as we should always keep in mind these current facts:

- Panther.D requires 5 CP, same as Pershing and Terror doc Tiger.
- Panther.A requires 6 CP, same as Comet and JagdPanther.
- Panther.G requires 7 CP, same as 76 Jumbo of Armor doc.
- Blitz doc Tiger requires 4 CP, same as Jacksons.
- SP requires 9 CP, same as Pershing Ace and Tiger Ace as well as Elephant.
- JagdTiger requires 10 CP.
- Croc requires 8 CP.
- King Tiger requires 11 CP.
- SturmTiger requires 7 CP.

So we would have both Panther.G and Jumbo earlier by 1 CP. And the Terror doc Tiger would be finally at the same level of Blitz doc Tiger as well as Jacksons. And of course the KT could finally see some combat a little earlier! And the SturmTiger would be available as soon as Croc Churchill and not earlier anymore.

Looking forward to your honest opinions...

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Alright then, looks like we have an agreement!

But regarding Ammo Reserve unlock, Hawks. It's too hard to replace it being together with War Machine... Or where would vehicles cap go? Would it be a dependent unlock next to the mass production unlock? Well, sounds legit.. but what about the ammo reserve unlock then?? Should it be at the end of the War Machine line together with Global Repair? Or at the beginning of the line? If it's at the beginning, this way the Ammo Reserve would be available too early.. and obviously the devs don't want that:

We don't want to make the ammo unlock available sooner, it was placed where it is for a reason.

And if it were to be at the end of the line, this way the Global repair would be available too soon...
Which is - again - not supposed to be.

So, I think Ammo Reserve after mass production still makes sense for sure.. you unlock "mass" production for your Shermans then you "mass" upgrade all of them with both AP and HE rounds
And vehicles cap make sense with Global Repair and War Machine, since that all the 3 unlocks are about improving ur "vehicles"

But now, I would like to know what do devs think about this new tech tree of Armor doc? Can you please carefully compare this tech tree to the other Armor doc tech tree of which u have on the change-log, and then honestly tell us which one you actually think is better? ^^
Armor doc tech tree.jpg
Note: this pic is exactly the same as the one I posted above, however.. the only difference is that I managed to make Ammo Reserve require 2 CP instead of 1 CP and in return the Mass Production require 1 CP instead of 2 CP on the other hand.

So, in total the Mass Production would require 3 CP only:
Which are: Fast Production 1 CP + Mass Production 1 CP + Sherman unlock 1 CP = 3 CP.
Keeping in mind that currently in the game the mass production already require 3 CP as well, so I didn't want to increase it to 4 total CP for no real reason. If I kept that way: Fast Production 1 CP + Mass Production 2 CP + Sherman unlock 1 CP = would be 4 CP then.
And the reason I am calculating the Sherman unlock together with Mass Production unlock even though they are not on the same line, is because:

Obviously the mass production unlock is useless without unlocking Shermans first...

And also, what do devs think about this change too?
Terror.jpg
This change of Terror doc is related to the Armor doc change for sure, the idea is to allow earlier Jumbo by 1 CP, while also making the Armor doc tech tree more simple and better organized overall.
This would also allow KT earlier by 1 CP (from currently 11 CP to 10 CP) as we should always keep in mind these current facts:

- Panther.D requires 5 CP, same as Pershing and Terror doc Tiger.
- Panther.A requires 6 CP, same as Comet and JagdPanther.
- Panther.G requires 7 CP, same as 76 Jumbo of Armor doc.
- Blitz doc Tiger requires 4 CP, same as Jacksons.
- SP requires 9 CP, same as Pershing Ace and Tiger Ace as well as Elephant.
- JagdTiger requires 10 CP.
- Croc requires 8 CP.
- King Tiger requires 11 CP.
- SturmTiger requires 7 CP.

So we would have both Panther.G and Jumbo earlier by 1 CP. And the Terror doc Tiger would be finally at the same level of Blitz doc Tiger as well as Jacksons. And of course the KT could finally see some combat a little earlier! And the SturmTiger would be available as soon as Croc Churchill and not earlier anymore.

Looking forward to your honest opinions...

Why you want make armor in the terror doc early available like it is in blitz already? It should stay since if you want focus on armor, you should pick an armor doctrine for the WM.
The early calliope would too crucial in early game, if you try to focus and save the ammo for it. Anyway, I don't really think that mass production should cost more CP, since there are more benefits if you place make sherman for early, than making it cheaper to spam it later, when the enemy should be more prepared and probably researched heavy tanks

[Krieger Blitzer]

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking why I want to make the Terror doc Tiger not available at 5 CP anymore but only at 4 CP just like the Blitz doc Tiger?
Well, the actual goal is to allow KT earlier by 1 CP and delay SturmTiger by 1 CP. Because if you look closely into this:

- Panther.D requires 5 CP, same as Pershing and Terror doc Tiger.
- Panther.A requires 6 CP, same as Comet and JagdPanther.
- Panther.G requires 7 CP, same as 76 Jumbo of Armor doc.
- Blitz doc Tiger requires 4 CP, same as Jacksons.
- SP requires 9 CP, same as Pershing Ace and Tiger Ace as well as Elephant.
- JagdTiger requires 10 CP.
- Croc requires 8 CP.
- King Tiger requires 11 CP.
- SturmTiger requires 7 CP.

You would see that currently 11 CP is way too late for the KT. And 7 CP is way too early for the SturmTiger...
Not to mention that the Terror doc Tiger is worse than the Blitz doc Tiger, so there is no real reason why it should stay at 5 CP.
As I believe that the Terror doc Tiger should be available as soon as Jacksons, just like the Blitz doc Tiger at 4 CP, and not as soon as Pershing. And I am aware that by doing this, the Panther.G would be earlier available by 1 CP too.. from 7 CP to 6 CP. Therefore I had to re-organize the Armor doc tech tree accordingly, so that the Jumbo would be available 1 CP earlier as well, while also improving the tech tree significantly!
And the mass production unlock would not have any more command points for sure! No one said it would.

More opinions are surely welcome

[idliketoplaybetter]

That wont work in favour of earlier KT, but only earlier Panther. Which is no good imo

And also, from my experience (especially based on recent matching agaisnt CW RE-doc and very defensive US play), having Sturmtiger this early is very good option. I'm afraid, that higher CP price would kill its effectivness and timing, and even more, it will work against progress among armor brench there on TechTree aka "even less KT" in this case.

[Krieger Blitzer]

That wont work in favour of earlier KT, but only earlier Panther. Which is no good imo

Panther.G would be 1 CP earlier available, true.. but let's not forget that this would also work in favor of earlier Jumbo as well.. the price of the Jumbo (750 MP) will not change. Not to mention that if you compare the Armor doc tech tree of the change-log to the other tech tree of which I've suggested; you would quickly observe that the Ammo Reserve unlock on my tech tree comes 2 CP sooner, and War Machine also comes 1 CP sooner too!

So, if you were to carefully sum up the benefits.. you would figure out that earlier Panther wouldn't be a problem at all. Jacksons are available only after 4 CP, same for the Firefly which is available to all Brit docs at 4 CP as well (except RAF, only 2 CP for some reason, but there is another topic about that) and the Panther.G at 6 CP is still only available after Pershing and as soon as Comet, just like Panther.A from Blitz doc currently.

As for the SturmTiger, you could have walking Stuka earlier.. and I think SturmTiger at 8 CP is still early anyway.

I forgot to respond one point by Mr.FemenistDonut though:

The early calliope would too crucial in early game

Not really, Blitz doc Opel truck "Maultier" comes without command points at all.. with incendiary rockets.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

That wont work in favour of earlier KT, but only earlier Panther. Which is no good imo

Panther.G would be 1 CP earlier available, true.. but let's not forget that this would also work in favor of earlier Jumbo as well.. the price of the Jumbo (750 MP) will not change. Not to mention that if you compare the Armor doc tech tree of the change-log to the other tech tree of which I've suggested; you would quickly observe that the Ammo Reserve unlock on my tech tree comes 2 CP sooner, and War Machine also comes 1 CP sooner too!

So, if you were to carefully sum up the benefits.. you would figure out that earlier Panther wouldn't be a problem at all. Jacksons are available only after 4 CP, same for the Firefly which is available to all Brit docs at 4 CP as well (except RAF, only 2 CP for some reason, but there is another topic about that) and the Panther.G at 6 CP is still only available after Pershing and as soon as Comet, just like Panther.A from Blitz doc currently.

As for the SturmTiger, you could have walking Stuka earlier.. and I think SturmTiger at 8 CP is still early anyway.

I forgot to respond one point by Mr.FemenistDonut though:

The early calliope would too crucial in early game

Not really, Blitz doc Opel truck "Maultier" comes without command points at all.. with incendiary rockets.

Costs fuel and don't have long barrage that denies area for a long time. I still don't understand, why panthers need to realease faster in terror doc, if you can just pick a specialised doctrine for that. KT is a super-heavy tank and it can't be produced "too-late", since it has no analog from allied side, except from super-persh, that will be removed soon. Also panther from ter is a very all-around tank, since it's mg is very accurate, so I don't think we need to realease that monster early.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Panther.G would be 1 CP earlier available, true.. but let's not forget that this would also work in favor of..

Reworking Terror doc might be needed, but trading off "heavies" like this..hm, doubt will lead to a progress, more likely ruin mid-later balance for both sides.

If the case is making KT earlier, so why not make it's initial price 3CP instead of 4? i'm not proposing this, but it will make KT come somewhat "intime" (eventhough, KT is just ehh, who needs it really ), but all before that, will effect nothing, but Panther G domination over field.

[Warhawks97]

Like that second armor doc suggestion actually. The lines make sense. Regarding ammo upgrade in makes sense both ways, war machine and shermans. Its there to save ammo for war machine and that replaced units have ammo right away. But also, since that upgrade affects shermans only, it makes sense to have it after sherman mass prod. Follwing in this you can then unlock repairs and war machine when ammo got previously saved by ammo upgrade. The other way arround you may get war machine unlocked but unable to benefit right away from it.

The vehicle cap can stand independent. Vehicle repairs and war machine can form an own line. Its cost will prevent prevent an "early abuse" of it. Repairs will work when not in combat. So it can help to have better use of vehicles during mid stage or focusing more on vehicles over a longer time.
There are options to make it and lots of good ideas. At the end devs decide whatsoever. So its not important that i agree here, its the devs:)

I think that calli should not come with 3 CP´s total. 4 at least and jumbo then 2 instead 3.

Also basic sherman doesnt require any unlock.

@Donut: mass prod wouldnt cost more here. If you unlock 76 sherman for 1 CP and two for mass prod or if spend 1 for 76 sherman, one for faster prod and 1 for mass prod. The ammount is still three.

Also whats the armor doctrine of WM? I am not sure. For me BK is the early game armor doc, Terror a late game armor doc as soon as Panther G is available. I think WM currently has no "armor doc" but all of them are. Would be nice to have one more specialized though oO.

@idliketoplaybetter:
Thing is that BK tiger is better with the top mount MG (the terror has smoke that can be usefull as well) thus killing inf better. Also BK doc can be carried by cheap Tank IV´s before heavier tanks are available. Terror cant. Perhaps adding Tank IV J to terror instead of F2 might be enough?

Regarding to your experience i cant say anything for or against it. I didnt play terror since it got the sturmtiger. So i am keeping out of this discussion at this point.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Perhaps adding Tank IV J to terror instead of F2 might be enough?

Ye, switching those two places would help Terror doc a lot and not weaken Blitz that much. Actually, id love to see Pz3 in BKdoc as first unlock, least as Reward version in potential, instead of F2.

Regarding to your experience i cant say anything for or against it. I didnt play terror since it got the sturmtiger. So i am keeping out of this discussion at this point.

Well, not much people find a use for that unit at all. In my eyes, not because it is where it is (terror doc after stuka), but its just very very specific (as was V1 at vCoh). But making it CP expensive wont work well for overall doctrine perspective.

[Krieger Blitzer]

KT is a super-heavy tank and it can't be produced "too-late", since it has no analog from allied side, except from super-persh, that will be removed soon.

Did anyone say that SP will be removed?

I think that calli should not come with 3 CP´s total. 4 at least and jumbo then 2 instead 3.

Makes sense... Yes, the Calliope unlock can be 3 CP and Jumbo unlock 2 CP in return.




Anyway guys, I think I've actually figured out the BEST doc of all time! It's very balanced too!!!

poop doctrine!

The devs must implement that!!!!!

[Shanks]

But I really think Tiger has good ideas, for a better balance at the moment, Terror lately is disappointing,it would be good for developers to give green to this

[mofetagalactica]

Terror needs a rework but not a "lazy rework" like the armor doctrine that just added 1 new skill and changed order of cp's so.. i would like to see devs refreshing and adding new stuff to the mod. New units at least...

[idliketoplaybetter]

Wow, would be amazing, if people here realised that its all Free-to-Play and based on pure enthusiam of basicaly few people who share their work and hobby with others, not obligatory something like if it was EA or Ubisoft, so all this "lazy aka im not satisfied" is just out of understanding to me.

[Kr0noZ]

Well, adding new stuff isn't helping much at this point, there's so many units in the mod already that it's been difficult finding reasonable placements, let alone balance all of them againts each other.

Reworks are large projects because they impact a lot more than just the doctrine being reworked; specifically, you have to keep in mind that the doctrines are meant to be played in combination - messing with one means thinking about what it should bring to the table in small games as well as larger ones. A doctrine that does well on it's own in early but complete falls off in lategame is useless in larger games because the player now can't support his mates properly anymore; a doctrine that only starts rolling after 30 minutes but gets wrecked by anything in early is even worse because it leaves the team fighting alone vs superior numbers in early and in smaller games it's completely unusable because you just won't survive long enough.

Because of that full reworks are currently talked about not not fixed on the agenda, and the current patch will not have any of that as it's almost done by now and has a massive changelog already.