Satchel charge for WH?

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think I figured out something... WH is the only faction in the whole game which doesn't have any airplanes. But this is not the only thing, as it also lacks any satchel charges!! Absolutely no unit can throw satchel charges in the WH faction at all.

PE has demo squad in SE doctrine, US has AB squads; and CW have SAS and RE Sappers. But which WH unit has it?? None.

Therefore, I suggest to replace the bundle grenade of the Demo StormTroop squad with satchel charge instead. That would help a lot against emplacements... Because so far bundle grenades are not good against emplacements, at least 4 bundle grenades are actually required to destroy just a single over-repaired emplacement. And this is already 200 ammo, 50 ammo per each bundle grenade!

[sgtToni95]

Don't SAS have demo charges?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Probably SAS has demo, ya.. but I could also add Rangers from Inf doc as well. They have satchel charges after the unlock...

[MarKr]

The effectivity of all grenades vs emplacements is getting changed in the next patch. So no need. Also...well, how would I put this in order not to sound like a pre-recorded message...every faction/doctrine can be different from others in something. Yes, I think that nails it

[Krieger Blitzer]

Not everything is meant to be the same. That's usually the kind of response you say when you don't know how to reject something, but with little to no logical reasons Anyway, you say in the change-log that they would be better at de-crewing emplacements... But I wonder if it would still require 4 bundle grenades by StormTroops just to kill 1 emplacement! That's 200 ammo, again.

I mean, bunkers are often not a trouble for Airborne thanks to satchel charges... Why should WH lack them completely??!! Demo Storm squad is also limited to only 1 unit at a time. But whatever; it would be the same results if the bundle grenades were buffed against emplacements, hopefully... But that's a matter of hope though.

[kwok]

It probably has to do with the fact that allies have no grenade resistant bunkers. Add satchels or not, I would bet gameplay would pretty much be the same.

[sgtToni95]

https://youtu.be/-FzBmtMGS4Q?t=30m30s

[kwok]

Toni, you're supposed to say "check" when you make a move like that.

[MarKr]

Not everything is meant to be the same. That's usually the kind of response you say when you don't know how to reject something, but with little to no logical reasons Anyway, you say in the change-log that they would be better at de-crewing emplacements... But I wonder if it would still require 4 bundle grenades by StormTroops just to kill 1 emplacement! That's 200 ammo, again.

I mean, bunkers are often not a trouble for Airborne thanks to satchel charges... Why should WH lack them completely??!! Demo Storm squad is also limited to only 1 unit at a time. But whatever; it would be the same results if the bundle grenades were buffed against emplacements, hopefully... But that's a matter of hope though.

And in turn this is your typical argumentation when you want to implement something that would make your gameplay easier for your favorite BK doc - you have problem dealing with something (atm it is emplacements) and you try to push through the easiest way you know from other factions to BK doc to have that thing too.
Satchels are not used by basic units but rather by what is intended to be "main" infantry units in the doc (Rangers, AB) or specilized units (RE sappers, SE Demo squad), in WM main battle units are Grenadiers - in Def doc they have the "Fragmentation sleeve" grenade which even in current version of BK mod has better chance at decreweing emplacements, and in Terror doc you have Flame nades iirc, which also do good at this. BK doc uses as main units the Storms, they have normal nades and the "assault" ability which tosses more nades for how much? 50 ammo? Can decrew emplacements too. So WM does not have satchels because they have other toys. But I don't suppose this will be "enough" reason for you anyway because (as usual) you want the easy way.

[Krieger Blitzer]

So WM does not have satchels because they have other toys. But I don't suppose this will be "enough" reason for you anyway because (as usual) you want the easy way.

Check the link sgtToni95 has shared. The 17pdr emplacement had about 80% HP when my StormTroop squad attacked it... Then they fired a PanzerShreck, being around 65% HP or something. Then I throw a bundle grenade for 50 ammo, what happened? The HP dropped to around 45% only instead of being completely destroyed! Now, imagine if this was over-repaired and full HP. Not sure if this emplacement also had the RE doc defensive unlock or not, but I guess it actually didn't. And if this emplacement was re-crewed by the opponent, he would have repaired it in absolutely no time.

Now let's imagine the same situation for AB against PantherTurm or bunkers on the other hand... Actually just 2 satchel charges are required to kill full HP bunkers, and pretty much a single satchel is enough to kill PantherTurms, a single satchel also costs 50 ammo. Keeping in mind that PantherTurms cost more and can't be repaired as fast! I am not sure if you can observe the issue here.
So, why should all others have the "easiest way" but some others shouldn't??!! Satchel charges don't require any unlock, unlike the assault ability, which is still not enough to destroy emplacements btw... Not to mention that satchel charges are also available by default to several units for all factions. Except for PE where it's limited to only 2 units! So, I still wonder why the Demo Storm squad shouldn't have them too??!! They are even called a "demolition squad" you see?

Anyway, like I said... If bundle grenades were hopefully buffed against emplacements.. then it would be the same result. As there would be no need to add satchel charge to the Demo Storm squad then. But if you keep bundle grenades soooo under-performing against emplacements as they are currently, then I can see no reason not to add satchel for the Demo StormTroop.

[sgtToni95]

Then just use panzershrecks or mortars, or mortar halftracks (try repairing emplacements while they're under mortar fire, or taking down a bunker with that), or officer's off-map mortar barrage, or stuH or Panzershrecks.. They're already available to BK doc i guess.. So you have MANY easy ways, but the problem is you not only want the easiest and cheapest ways, but you want the doctrine to have the easiest ways adapted to your playstyle. Does this really sound good to you?

I already told this, but as always you decide when an example is good or not, and you decide what to ignore about the replays that you're given. Some people have come to the forum complaining about RAF bombing run doing very little damage to luft inf or storms, and I (defined CW and particularly RAF biased by you) , together with others, told them that it's fine as long as there are other tools to deal with them.
Surely if bombing run was effective against Elite infantry it would be easier, but I've not been asking for changes to make it this way as you're doing with your favourite/most played doc.

Moreover not every doctrine of allied factions has Satchels, so i don't really understand why you present it as if pretty much all allied docs had satchels to deal with bunkers and pantherturms.

[MarKr]

Your whole idea of "something being OP/UP vs emplacement" comes from its capability to DESTROY the thing completely. If this is what you expect from the next patch then you will be dissapointed. Grenades will have increased chance to kill crews, not to destroy the emplacement in one chuck of a grenade. WM has ways of dealing with emplacements, they don't need satchels and that is why they will not get them. End of story.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@sgtToni95
I would better say, how about you play Blitz doc and try to take out my emplacements with Stuh??!! Try it, and have a good luck with that. PanzerShrecks are no option as long as HE rounds exist for those emplacements, mortars and Stuh are again not an option against 95mm Churchills which are able to one-shot mortars and kill Stuh in 2 Shots, moreover; Comet or Achilles can be sneaky and fast enough to kill Stuh thanks to flank speed.

And we are not talking about Luft or RAF here, not my subject.

I said all factions have satchels, not all doctrines... Except the WH faction.

@MarKr
blab blab blab. But it's totally fine to one-shot PantherTurms with satchels... Sure.

[sgtToni95]

@MarKr
blab blab blab. But it's totally fine to one-shot PantherTurms with satchels... Sure.

You see how much consideration you give to other's opinions? Don't you think you'd be a little nicer if you tried to listen to others insteaed of pushing forward your ideas even when it's not the case anymore?

And seriously, can't you see any logical inaccuracy in what you say? Can't you get 1-2 mortars before your opponent gets 95mm churchill? or even before he get the first 17pdr emplacement? I guess you must have some different version of bk then or, even if i asked you not to do so, you're just trying to fool us..

You keep saying "if your opponent does this, if your opponent does that"..... OF COURSE the ways you have to destroy emplacements are counterable, isn't it how balance works?? This really shows how you want your own ways to deal with emplacements, and you expect them not to be counterable...
Every unit in the game is counterable, then what??? Should people start complaining on forum and stop trying untill they're changed the way they want??? Honestly, all your words seem so absurd to me.

I showed you how you can destroy a 17 pdr emplacement even with not much experience with the faction, your problem is really that you want to do it your own way, the problem is not that "Bk doc has no way to kill emplacements" as you stated.

In the video YOU used panzershreck against a 17 pdr, but, if HE is really that much of a problem, what would Satchels solve then??

Once again, even if i tried to make you understand it with our long conversation, you contraddict your own actions and your own words, but you're just too blind and stubborn to admit your mistakes and to get a little more open minded and gameplay-versatile.

Oh and the best part: DODGING.

And we are not talking about Luft or RAF here, not my subject.

That example perfectly fit, just you don't want to see.

[Krieger Blitzer]

How about you step out of this discussion?? You really showed me how to effectively destroy 17pdr emplacements spam? Right........
You play Blitz doc all the day, and all other factions more often too. Of course you know how to destroy them effectively but I don't!

Ya, I am so narrow minded to suggest adding satchels for a demolition squad.. specifically when all Airborne squads have it! You know what, I am sorry for being too narrow minded then, but this is becoming so ridiculous and I don't think I can keep up with this stupid place for much longer, just no more.

[Medic Truck]

I am raring to play online with you guys. One day more before I go online fully.

Anyway, here are my impressions about this topic. With Blitzkreig doc, considering arguably the best steel in the game and on the face style fighting, fast producing tanks including venerable PIVs and Stugs, stormtroopers, manpower blitz, Stuh42, all make a devastating force to reckon with. Not to mention, if combined arms are used - charging infantry with tanks from multiple directions with indirect mortar support, Stuh42. The result will be destruction. Of course, if you alone are going against multiple opponents guarding around the emplacement becomes difficult but that's just becomes a game of tactics. To destroy a heavily guarded defense has always been difficult task in history be it any age of fighting.

Also, the units are themselves very strong in this doc so they are sort of meant to be use on the face. Yes, a few might die but they will take many with them. I guess that is the style of this doc.

I have also used the leig indirect fire support to really good effect but that would mean that you would lose 50 mill. With Blitz doc, that is one good unit to choose for that little support for very strong on the face army.

Not to mention we tend to be lazy at times to go combined arms and we need one ring to rule them all type unit. I have yet to play the online to realize the full effect of what I am saying so just take it like that.

[Warhawks97]

@sgtToni95
I would better say, how about you play Blitz doc and try to take out my emplacements with Stuh??!! Try it, and have a good luck with that.

Try Armor doc against def doc.

If you know your enemie goes campy with RE emplacments, just choose def or TH doc. TH has hotchkiss that are good in killing emplacments and are early available and has way more range than silly 95 mm churchill.

Same as with our discussion. When you know armor doc has good counter vs Tigers, why not just trying to get early tank IV and then Panthers (which have way better armor and mobility)?


And BK is love against emplacments. Early on you get that mortar. You can get Maultier that burns the emplacment or the crew. You may go for stuh ( Get AT squad and 50 mm and you can make this "force the enemie to attack tactics" so that he wastes the M10´s).

Later you can crawl on them. The assault ability throws grenades untill the crew is dead and this over a far larger distance than satchels does (for which you need to get extremly close). So its a 100% emplacment killer. The unit is also not a paper unit so you can stand under small arms fire for a pretty long time.

Maybe also Blitzkrieg ability.... rush for the emplacments, Units shoot much faster etc.


And if all this doesnt help.... go def/terror/Luft/TH/SE doc..... there are only 5 more docs that are extremly good against emplacments (but also in killing tanks)

[MarKr]

I think that everyone, that includes Toni, Warhawks, MedicTruck and ofcourse myself, should step out of this discussion. Tiger is a competent player with several thousands hours played in BK mod and out of that over a gazillion hours played as BK doc so he knows better than anyone what the doctrine can do and if he says that something is impossible or weak for the doctrine, then it must be true. It simply must be. If you read his arguments, you'll see he's right. His arguments are strong and superior in any possible way to anything you might have to say (an epic example of such argument is the "blab blab blab" - such spark of genius can be seen once per century) and so you cannot really find valid counter-arguments to his superior arguments and even if you try, remember he's right on the other hand anyway. So don't try and accept his wisdom.
I know that deep inside all of you know that it is the right thing to do.

[Krieger Blitzer]

"Not everything is meant to be the same" and "Blitz doc has other ways so no need for satchels, end of story" (keeping in mind other docs have other ways too, but they still have satchels; inf doc for example) these are so much stronger arguments!
Ya, so stronk...

And it's honestly crap how you stick on what others say now, yet.. never did the same when MANY others also opposed your viewpoint before or when pretty much everybody agreed on some certain things in particular. But you were still against the change! Not going over examples tough.. however, I think everyone here knows and remembers exactly what I am talking about. As it's really interesting how you consider what others are saying for now! As long as they are somewhat on your side.

Lastly, I missed to respond that part:

If this is what you expect from the next patch then you will be dissapointed. Grenades will have increased chance to kill crews, not to destroy the emplacement in one chuck of a grenade.

I never said one chuck of a grenade, but 4 chucks for 200 ammo doesn't seem so fine.. do they? Anyway, I am afraid I am going to be disappointed with the next patch anyway! So far the changes are so off compared to previous patches.

[Warhawks97]

[i] (keeping in mind other docs have other ways too, but they still have satchels; inf doc for example) these are so much stronger arguments!

Like what else i have as inf or AB to kill def doc emplacments or bunkers? I am curious.
Often i would just dream of assault abilities like storms have. Becuase of the activation range, ammount of nades and schreck shots during this time (seen up to 3x3 nades and 3 schreck shots) and suppression removal.

Getting satchels on an axis defense already means that you had to expand lots of your ammunition just to clear the area of "Bunker protection units" and to give you the time space you need to get soo close for satchels.

For emplacment smoke is often enough to get into this assault ability range.


And still the options to kill the crew and causing huge damage.... officier and and leader squad off maps are my personal favorits here combined with followed assault.

Last but not least, the nade bundle is perfect to also instand whipe inf squads. Satchels wont do that unless the player is afk at this time. This alone justifies cost and different behaviour.





Ya, so stronk...

quote]

[Krieger Blitzer]

Like what else i have as inf or AB to kill def doc emplacments or bunkers? I am curious.

For inf doc: 105 Sherman. 107 mortars, 105 howitzers, 75mm howitzers, off-map arty strikes... AND in addition to that; all Rangers have satchels after unlock. Even though "other ways" are still available!

For AB doc:
7 AB squads who can drop behind bunkers and throw satchel charges. 75mm howitzers, and airstrikes (I did note before that AB airstrikes should actually deal more damage against bunkers, because currently the damage is so under-whelming, but u know how MarKr respond?? He said not everything is meant to be the same ) Plus the Calliope Jeep, but I know it's going to be removed to inf doc though.. which is another questionable change in the next patch change-log preview.

And btw:

why not just trying to get early tank IV and then Panthers (which have way better armor and mobility)?

Panther is somehow ONLY later available than Tigers, Pershing and Jacksons. Also has less HP than Tiger, almost no good abilities compared to the Tiger... And actually slower as well. Since that Tigers (except ACE ofc) can use flank speed ability!
And that's why I believe that if they managed to reduce the speed of Panthers carelessly while increasing the speed of Shermans massively on the next patch.. would be the true last bullet right into the chest of the next patch I am afraid.

[MarKr]

"Not everything is meant to be the same" and "Blitz doc has other ways so no need for satchels, end of story" (keeping in mind other docs have other ways too, but they still have satchels; inf doc for example) these are so much stronger arguments!
Ya, so stronk...

What is it that you don't like about this? These are just globally applied truths because it is simply truth that not everything is meant to be the same. You don't like it? OK. Every Axis doc has some tank or TD with 88mm PaK43 (strongest axis gun)...fine. Pershing or Jackson will go to every US doctrine and Churchill or Comet to every CW doc. Hmmm...let's see...every Axis doctrine has infantry with STg44s, strongest close-range weapons. OK, let's make sure that every Allied doc has access to Thompsons and since they are not as good as STg44s, Thompsons will be buffed. By the way, Schrecks are better than zooks, so zooks will get a buff and also will be available to every CW doc. What else do we have there? US and CW guns reload longer than most Axis guns...weird...I mean stuff should be the same, right? OK, unification...who cares that Axis have more expensive units and US can build more units and many weaker units roll over less units which are stronger, especially when the weaker units will shoot faster than now?

If you think that the "not everything is meant to be the same" is not a valid answer, then we can cancel WM/PE and US/CW and simply make Allies and Axis factions without any docs and give to each side same ammount of units in each tier, each unit with some purpose and stats but there will be a mirror unit to the other side - when we do this and you find something different in one of the two sides, then the "not everything is meant to be the same" would be a nonsensical argument to use but at the current set up, it is valid point.

And "Blitz doc has other ways so no need for satchels" - tell me how EXACTELY it is not true? And I am asking for a direct answer. Direct answer is NOT a comparison to other doctrines of how they can deal with similar situation more easily (because that means BK doc CAN deal with it, only needs to make more effort), direct answer is also NOT asking a question (because "answer" by its definition is a "statement" and statements are declarative sentences) and direct answer is also NOT "I am not going to continue in this discussion" (that is dodging).
A direct answer would be something like this: "BK doc has no other way of dealing with emplacements because it has no infantry capable of crawling and decrewing the emplacement with abilities such as nades, BK neither has any mortars capable of shooting smoke nor any sort of artyllery what-so-ever and that is why they don't have other ways of dealing with emplacements."

[Warhawks97]

105 to take out bunkers? Not to mention that you lose a arty combat (vs def doc but also terror) anyway.

The Long tom doesnt kill a upgraded def doc emplacment. Last time it dealed 50% damage to 88 pit. So Bunker is out of question.
107 mortar? Come on. Emplacment to counter emplacment? It get burned anyways or decrewed by storms.


So satchel seem to me the only effective way against bunkers and def doc emplacments. Just as for you RE causes headache. All others are no problem so far.

75 mm? First its damage is good enough to kill soft targets. Others are damaged at best. But def doc will repair them in no time.

The 105 wont hit the wall from the inside of the barn. Its not a reliable arty. On top, RE has far less chances to directly counter your maultier as the def doc can ruin your 105 sherman fun days (Grille). The only way to get maultier or stuh is to put units in risk (M10 "rush" or also called "suicide run")
And any damage will be repaired in no time by defensive doctrine pioneers.

Calli jeep. Nice firework. The damage dealed will be repaired in no time anways by def doc (or any pe doc).


AB can drop behind bunkers... well, and Puma or AA tank says good morning then.
Storms crawl or spawn in a house behind the emplacement.


The only thing i could agree with is when you place 4 howitzers out of enemie gun range and then using VT. But thats it. But inf has nothing like stuhs or so.

But as BK you could just as well get officer squad(s) with their off map.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@MarKr
Ok, so I will try to be more constructive here.. and less demanding. As I never said everything should be the same, neither did I say that the statement itself is false... I never asked that WH for example should have airplanes. This would be bullshit, because every WH doctrine has heavy tanks. Therefore no airplanes! So I totally understand what you say here. However, my whole point is; this statement can't be a standard response to every single suggestion down here. You are using it too often! Here for example, with this suggestion... I only suggested that the Demo Storm squad (which is limited to 1 unit at a time) could have satchel charge instead of bundle grenade. Which is not so much of a big change actually! As I think probably Kwok was right that the game-play would be the same after all, whether the satchel was added or not.

Now imagine if I were to suggest that ALL the StormTroop squads should have satchel charges.. just because all AB units have it!!
At this point, "Not everything is meant to be the same" would make more sense, being more valid as well.
Nonetheless, this is definitely not what I suggested!

So, to directly answer question.. also shortly, since I don't like to waste my time neither your time:

And "Blitz doc has other ways so no need for satchels" - tell me how EXACTELY it is not true? And I am asking for a direct answer.

I admit that the statement is not untrue. Blitz doc indeed has other ways... Never claimed otherwise. Even though that these other ways are not really effective enough in my humble opinion, but let's move on. As I am also not here to compare units\factions or whatever, and probably that's why I don't like to continue the discussions with Hawks about other factions for now.

My point simply was; are these other ways really THAT much even to the point that if we ever manage to replace the bundle grenade with satchel ONLY for the Demo squad, would somehow suddenly break the balance and make Blitz doc too capable of destroying emplacements??!! How do you think it would be sooooo bad if the Demo Storm squad would have a satchel instead of a bundle grenade?? Do you really think that it's so much of a big change? Do you really think that such a change would negatively affect the overall balance, and how so? Now please answer my questions, and I want direct\short answers too.

And I am not mad if you reject the suggestion after all btw, even though I'd still wonder why 4 bundle grenades are required to destroy a single emplacement... Or why AT gun emplacements should have HE rounds in the first place, or why shouldn't the AB bombing run airstrikes deal at least 30% damage to a bunker instead of currently just a scratch or barely 5% etc.

[Redgaarden]

I will post soon why I think tiger is right and many of you sound like gibberish.

"I have yet to play the online to realize the full effect of what I am saying"

Cya soon. -Red