Armor doctrine

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mofetagalactica
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Armor doctrine

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Jul 2017, 22:35

Hello there, i would like to suggest the jumbo being a replacement for the easy8sherman on the armor doctrine USA instead of being a CP unlockable unit. Since is a good tank to push forward againts emplacements and such.

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Shanks
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Shanks » 18 Jul 2017, 02:35

I think what you suggest is a very good idea, because when the jumbo comes out, many times there are already more powerful enemy tanks on the battlefield, so this way could come the sherman easy of reinforcement, in both cases we could give them Reasonable price, I hope panzerblitz 1 says what you think about this proposal

And perhaps, that there is more than one jumbo, maybe two
"The one who advances is attacking and the one who defends is camper, but I do not see a problem in this. If you complain about someone who is camper, you can also be camper ... The team that makes less mistakes will win.Logical :lol: "

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Warhawks97
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Jul 2017, 14:28

I dont think its a good thing. The units are whole different. In their use, cost, role.

Basically everything but the gun. Also from a realistic perspective it makes little sense. Jumbos were rare (less than 300) and most of them had the short 75 mm (the one being used in inf doc).


Jumbos are spearhead units that draw fire from smaller defenses and anti tank guns while bouncing those off. Its not a main unit. E8 are more multirole medium tanks that occure not alone like jumbos.
So the Jumbo makes in many ways no sense to become a core unit replacing another core unit.

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Panzerblitz1
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 18 Jul 2017, 15:16

Agreed with warhawks here, jumbo will stay where it is.
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Shanks
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Shanks » 18 Jul 2017, 22:11

Well okay, but I hope the artillery of the captain is approved faster, this would make the game more balanced
"The one who advances is attacking and the one who defends is camper, but I do not see a problem in this. If you complain about someone who is camper, you can also be camper ... The team that makes less mistakes will win.Logical :lol: "

mofetagalactica
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby mofetagalactica » 21 Jul 2017, 01:08

Warhawks97 wrote:I dont think its a good thing. The units are whole different. In their use, cost, role.

Basically everything but the gun. Also from a realistic perspective it makes little sense. Jumbos were rare (less than 300) and most of them had the short 75 mm (the one being used in inf doc).


Jumbos are spearhead units that draw fire from smaller defenses and anti tank guns while bouncing those off. Its not a main unit. E8 are more multirole medium tanks that occure not alone like jumbos.
So the Jumbo makes in many ways no sense to become a core unit replacing another core unit.


Whats so special about the E8 to be a core unit if you already have the 76W ? Jumbos make more sense for a doc that lacks on sparhead units. Since u really want to use his fast tank hunters while using jumbos as a decoy to destroy enemy armors.

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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby mofetagalactica » 21 Jul 2017, 01:09

Panzerblitz1 wrote:Agreed with warhawks here, jumbo will stay where it is.


Hey panzer, can you give us some stats comparition between E8 and 76W please?

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Redgaarden
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Redgaarden » 21 Jul 2017, 03:13

Hey panzer, can you give us some stats comparition between E8 and 76W please?


I know the gun has 0.75 movement modifier instead of 0.50 and that HVAP deals 5 more dmg (multiplied by 5) than regular 76

it has a bit more hp, used to have 700 I think, but got toned down a bit for some reason. Dont know any other differences. I would almost just remove regular 76 or E8 and have them be the same unit.
And I mean brits get multible churchills/comets. WH and PE get multiple panthers. So why does armour doc only get 1 Jumbo?
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Warhawks97
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Jul 2017, 14:51

The E8 has 0.82 received penetration modifier while the 76 has 0.85. Thus e8 armor is better. Tigers pen both easily but aganinst 75 mm L/48 and 50 mm guns that can have an impact in the results.

E8 is faster (As fast as Panther or Jagdpanther.. Has higher accuracy while moving and idk if it has more HP than 76. The AP rounds should actually be same. US special AP rounds are generally worse than those of others in terms of damage.

And Allied shouldnt get more jumbos simply as they are not supposed to be core units. Armor doctrine in general shouldnt rely so heavily on jumbos and Pershings and having those as support rather than as core. But in order to make this happen armor doctrine would require more tactical abilties.

Also there is a realistic aspect i would say (stupid enogh that there is a SP that actually throws everything over board already). Churchills were main CW tanks. In fact there shouldnt be just one MK VII crocc but instead more of them (just not all with flamethrower). The MK IV and VI were outdated and replaced in 1944 (or when had numberous Panthers, KT and what else). The comet saw also intense actions with larger numbers build. And the Panther was Axis Main Battle Tank in 44 with more produced Panthers than Tank IV´s at this time. A Jumbos never exceeded the 300 mark and were just for special missions and purposes. And i think thats the difference here between the factions, doctrines and their specific designs.

However, due to the current US faction and doctrine design playing US feels a lot more like playing a "fake fiction". Rangers as basic units to stand a chance vs standard axis grens while rifles are just support (while it should be the other way arround). Pershings and Jumbos to have a chance against the standard axis armor while shermans are just "screening" arround and killing vehicles while it should again be the other way arround. Jumbos and Pershings as special tactical tools (just as rangers) instead core combat units. Achieving this would however require a rethinking of US doctrine designs (or entire faction design), esspecially in terms of tactical support. US feels cumbersome in terms of mobility (usefull cost effective mid game vehicles), Flexibility (Unit versatility, reorganizing armor composition and adapting strategies where US is often very fixed) and tactical support (access to small quick available usefull indirect fire units/off maps) being thus often "slow" compared to axis in particular. Sudden rushes, advances, breakthroughs (at weaker defended areas) are rare and ineffective.

But i went off-topic now.

mofetagalactica
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Jul 2017, 05:27

Warhawks97 wrote:The E8 has 0.82 received penetration modifier while the 76 has 0.85. Thus e8 armor is better. Tigers pen both easily but aganinst 75 mm L/48 and 50 mm guns that can have an impact in the results.

E8 is faster (As fast as Panther or Jagdpanther.. Has higher accuracy while moving and idk if it has more HP than 76. The AP rounds should actually be same. US special AP rounds are generally worse than those of others in terms of damage.

And Allied shouldnt get more jumbos simply as they are not supposed to be core units. Armor doctrine in general shouldnt rely so heavily on jumbos and Pershings and having those as support rather than as core. But in order to make this happen armor doctrine would require more tactical abilties.

Also there is a realistic aspect i would say (stupid enogh that there is a SP that actually throws everything over board already). Churchills were main CW tanks. In fact there shouldnt be just one MK VII crocc but instead more of them (just not all with flamethrower). The MK IV and VI were outdated and replaced in 1944 (or when had numberous Panthers, KT and what else). The comet saw also intense actions with larger numbers build. And the Panther was Axis Main Battle Tank in 44 with more produced Panthers than Tank IV´s at this time. A Jumbos never exceeded the 300 mark and were just for special missions and purposes. And i think thats the difference here between the factions, doctrines and their specific designs.

However, due to the current US faction and doctrine design playing US feels a lot more like playing a "fake fiction". Rangers as basic units to stand a chance vs standard axis grens while rifles are just support (while it should be the other way arround). Pershings and Jumbos to have a chance against the standard axis armor while shermans are just "screening" arround and killing vehicles while it should again be the other way arround. Jumbos and Pershings as special tactical tools (just as rangers) instead core combat units. Achieving this would however require a rethinking of US doctrine designs (or entire faction design), esspecially in terms of tactical support. US feels cumbersome in terms of mobility (usefull cost effective mid game vehicles), Flexibility (Unit versatility, reorganizing armor composition and adapting strategies where US is often very fixed) and tactical support (access to small quick available usefull indirect fire units/off maps) being thus often "slow" compared to axis in particular. Sudden rushes, advances, breakthroughs (at weaker defended areas) are rare and ineffective.

But i went off-topic now.



Will be better to wait for panzer to answer since, you're talking historically and we are talking about the tank in-game, since for me is performing almost like the 76W (speed,cannon,acuracy,rotation). So ill wait until he give us the stats comparition in-game between the units.

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Jalis
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Jalis » 22 Jul 2017, 09:08

BK actual version

76w vs easy eight

easy eight armour +3 per, hp +8 per cent, accuracy while moving suffer only 25 per cent penality instead of 50 per cent. The last is the only valid from historical point of view... if we forget tanks at that time about never fired while moving except for propaganda movies. Cons ; easy eight cost 10 per more fuel for upkeep. it could be, for most, less visible than basic cost difference.

Easy eight is also sightly faster, and significantly more agile ingame (and probably historically for agility).

Warhawk made a correct evalution ingame ... and added a book of personal feeling after that, but nothing unusual ;)

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 22 Jul 2017, 12:44

Thing is not "e8 is better/worse than 76W" to me, but that going E8 is not worth it most of the time/or its available too late to be handy, and good old strat "few cheap units + AWLM" is no more/never been a case for the mod.


P.S. i wish any balance talk here on forum, started from long forgotten unused abilities from every doc, instead of what it is now. Since for example, mentioned above ALWM, used to be somewhat compensation for "lack of arty" for armor doc, and in result, we have no use of cool, doctrinal-concept feature, and topic on Artillery.
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speeddemon02
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby speeddemon02 » 22 Jul 2017, 17:34

For me the difference between the 76W and E8 is the same between the F2 and H. What does ALWM mean again?

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Kr0noZ
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Kr0noZ » 22 Jul 2017, 19:08

Allied Warmachine, the doctrine unlock gives you an ability which you can activate and all tanks lost during the active time will be replaced instantly by spawning new tanks of the same type from offmap as reinforcements.
So in theory if you do a tank assault with 7 Shermans, 2 M10 and a Pershing and you activate AWM, you can lose them all while it's active and a big train of 7 Shermans, 2 M10 and a Pershng will roll in at your map spawn point - no net losses for you except for the ammo cost of the ability.
It will not replace the tanks at the same vet though, and if you bought upgrades for them these are lost as well - you get factory-new rookie tanks.

For some reason, it's apparently highly under-used^^

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 22 Jul 2017, 19:17

It may to be used often, and im wrong.., but main point of what i've said there, was that AWM is basically doctrinal key feature, which doesnt feel like must have thing at all in tech tree (considering all this "quantity over quality" balancing concept).

*and is it only work for 3 units? like if u have 5tanks and u lose all of them, u get back only 3 of them?
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Kr0noZ » 22 Jul 2017, 19:20

idliketoplaybetter wrote:*and is it only work for 3 units? like if u have 5tanks and u lose all of them, u get back only 3 of them?


You sure? I rarely play armor so I don't know for sure but at some pont it used to replace all tanks... maybe that change slipped by me, in that case my bad - but still not a bad ability if you replace even 1 Pershing with it.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 22 Jul 2017, 19:28

i guess..we will need someone to clear this for us :D

But i never said its bad, only placed wrong -> comes up too late, so is e8, and so is commander arty (i know its gonna be changed).
Intsead of being some kind of "stimula" for the armor player with low/not enough fuel income to still attack and not sit back waiting for..arty that he doesnt have, this ability is low behind on a list of what u get after sherman/light tank hunter upgrade.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Jul 2017, 21:50

speeddemon02 wrote:For me the difference between the 76W and E8 is the same between the F2 and H. What does ALWM mean again?


pzIV H can easily destroy a jumbo 76 with 1 or 2 shoots, so its way better than a E8, its also really good againts infantry.

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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Tiger1996 » 22 Jul 2017, 22:15

mofetagalactica wrote:
speeddemon02 wrote:For me the difference between the 76W and E8 is the same between the F2 and H. What does ALWM mean again?


pzIV H can easily destroy a jumbo 76 with 1 or 2 shoots, so its way better than a E8, its also really good againts infantry.

Don't forget though that any 76 Sherman with loaded HVAP rounds (regardless if Jumbo, E8 or just 76W) can also penetrate tanks as big as the Tiger tank... And the Tiger tank doesn't only cost 750 MP like the Jumbo, but 975 MP and 170 fuel on the other hand.
Not to mention that actually the IV.H can't reliably penetrate the 76 Jumbo btw, not even with APCR rounds.. except with luck!
Also, both IV.H and E8 have suppression ability and top MG gunners as well as HE rounds.. they are almost equally good against inf.

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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby speeddemon02 » 22 Jul 2017, 23:00

Thanks, I will say that I am aware of the ability, but I prefer passives over active abilities. It is the last CP that I unlock if I unlock it. My comment was not a 1 for 1 in ability, but a comparison in view between them like an analogy. Now that Tiger mentioned the cost of tigers why are late version from blitz more expensive than the terror version?

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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby mofetagalactica » 23 Jul 2017, 00:38

Tiger1996 wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote:
speeddemon02 wrote:For me the difference between the 76W and E8 is the same between the F2 and H. What does ALWM mean again?


pzIV H can easily destroy a jumbo 76 with 1 or 2 shoots, so its way better than a E8, its also really good againts infantry.

Don't forget though that any 76 Sherman with loaded HVAP rounds (regardless if Jumbo, E8 or just 76W) can also penetrate tanks as big as the Tiger tank... And the Tiger tank doesn't only cost 750 MP like the Jumbo, but 975 MP and 170 fuel on the other hand.
Not to mention that actually the IV.H can't reliably penetrate the 76 Jumbo btw, not even with APCR rounds.. except with luck!
Also, both IV.H and E8 have suppression ability and top MG gunners as well as HE rounds.. they are almost equally good against inf.


Test it in-game H vs E8 , and there is a really low chance for a E8 to penetrate a tiger even with AP shells, while a tiger can just kill a E8 with 1 shoot or 2 shoots (wich is fine) but you're wrong by saying that 2 E8 are able to kill a tiger, that dosnt work not even with the AP shells.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 23 Jul 2017, 08:25

What is the poiht of all this comparision when its all up to RNG-range-ingame situation???

Thing with e8, is that its simply unneeded.

By the time it may come up on field, its better to have 2m10's or 2hellcats (upgrading which, is also better, than going for any sherman related CP ability).There is nothing e8 can do better, than Tankhunter for lower price now, especially with HE.

*also it would be cool, if those sandbag/concrete upgrades, were also ammo-cost. alike HE/AP rounds, instead of what it is now. So u could manualy place it on specific tank, right from the factory.
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby MarKr » 23 Jul 2017, 13:44

E8 is faster and has better accuracy when it shoots while moving (compared to 76W). Also you can increase its HP by Sandbags I upgrade and make it harder to penetrate with Sandbags II. M10s and M18s can ambush but M18 has paper-armor...or is as close to this term as it can get. M10s have slow turret rotation and turning the vehicle manually is more micro demanding.
So the tank hunters are cheaper but way more fragile...just saying.
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 23 Jul 2017, 16:00

I was not comparing those 3 by their plain characteristics and cons/flaws. What i did though say, is that strategical impact of E8 is rather..low, compare to what u can get from having few TH units or/also m4HEsherman.
Ambush and speed are much better weapons, when it comes to competetive game, and fighting against even skirted p4.


There is a reason why players rush for SP tech branch, its because playing allies is very timing dependant now id say, and getting 1 e8 and bring few extra cool bags on its sides and rear, rare to work itself well.
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Re: Armor doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Jul 2017, 23:55

Kr0noZ wrote:Allied Warmachine, the doctrine unlock gives you an ability which you can activate and all tanks lost during the active time will be replaced instantly by spawning new tanks of the same type from offmap as reinforcements.
So in theory if you do a tank assault with 7 Shermans, 2 M10 and a Pershing and you activate AWM, you can lose them all while it's active and a big train of 7 Shermans, 2 M10 and a Pershng will roll in at your map spawn point - no net losses for you except for the ammo cost of the ability.
It will not replace the tanks at the same vet though, and if you bought upgrades for them these are lost as well - you get factory-new rookie tanks.

For some reason, it's apparently highly under-used^^



Tested it. Veeeery often. With different tanks etc.

To get this working you need a map with high ammo income. Also you can't upgrade tanks and that's what I did.

Result:
Free vet for enemy. Barely gains and without AP you can send million tanks but won't kill any of theirs. In all: very bad trade. The only effective way was with plane/ arty support. You forced the enemy on a point so that arty mate or RAF player could kill them easier.
But armor doch has little gains of it.

And you may replace pershing..but add scope and AP alone makes you pay 350 ammo at the end

That's barely more than silly AI behaviour
but you will never get through a halfway organised defense by that alone. Just that the next attack will be even harder.

And of you play with upgrade and stuff you will then deplete a 600 ammo storage instantly. Upgrades and the one or other ability to actually kill something......yeah nice theory this ability. But trust me at the end I tried this with rushes etc. But worked out so bad at the end unless mates provided heavy support.


Additionally it replaces two units. An average sherman assault that shall beat something (itself a joke) will require and cost easily more.

So besides huge ammo and vet losses you also suffer after all mp cost and enemies got lot of MP.

Also you have no chance to choose what to replace. So enenie may kills the two shermans first. The then lonely pershing is schreck food and you have to rebuild it. Send pershing alone you may get new one but gained nothing though.

Just in one of these highly praised 1vs1 scenarios vs a omg tiger tank" that ability can be fun. But it's never like that this ability helps armor doc in crucial ways. Besides that we once again reduced armor doc to pershing in this case. Even more than its already the case.

On top of that what are two losses? If you want to silly overrun axis defenses with just masses two losses is what is dead before axis defenders would have got a scratch. And then? Break off attack and lose others in chaotic retreat? Continue and lose the rest for nothing?
This ability doesn't change anything for armor doc.


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