[4.9.8]Panzer IV Ausf.J production precondition error for WH Blitzkrieg doctrine

[out5488]

For WH Blitzkrieg doctrine, in previously version, I need to enable "Research: Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. H/J (Sd.Kfz. 161/2)", "Upgraded Production", and "Pz.Kpfw. IV Mass Production" in command tree, then I can produce Panzer IV Ausf.J.
But in 4.9.8, I don't need to enable "Pz.Kpfw. IV Mass Production" anymore to produce Panzer IV Ausf.J, just need "Research: Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. H/J (Sd.Kfz. 161/2)" & "Upgraded Production".
From the 4.9.8's "Pz.Kpfw. IV Mass Production" description :"Through mass production, the cost of the Pz.Kpfw. IV is reduced. Mass production is also required to enable production of the Ausf. J.", I think it's still supposed to be mandatory for Panzer IV Ausf.J production, just like previously.
It will make Ausf.J appear in battlefiled earlier than supposed to be, and break the balance.

[MarKr]

Thanks for reporting, we'll have a look at it.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Mass production was NEVER required to produce Panzer.IV.J in the first place.. not on v4.9.8 or even any other previous versions... And it's surely not balance breaking.

The mass production only reduces the cost of Panzer.IV.H and slightly the price of IV.D as well as Ostwind.

The IV.J has always been available right after the upgraded production unlock as long as Pz4 is also unlocked, IV.J costs 410 MP and 45 fuel, but surely it won't get any cheaper after the mass production. Since it's already cheap...

So, if anything.. then it's just the description that needs some correction here. Nothing more or less!

[out5488]

The first time I play this mod is in 2011 or 2012, and didn't play COH for a long time, month ago I start to play COH and Blitzkrieg mod again.
So if like Tiger1996 said, the precondition of Ausf.J production had been like this for a long time, the "previously" I mentioned in above may refer my memory for Blitzkrieg mod in 2011 and 2012.

Anyway, If mass production is not required for Ausf.J anymore now, it makes this upgrade become meanless for many player unless you need Stug support upgrade in the bottom of the branch (don't remeber the exact name).

Before enable mass production, Ausf.J is much cheaper than Ausf.H （410 MP/45 Fuel VS 550 MP/80 Fuel）, and can handle most of the combat situation as well as Ausf.H, it will make many people to only manufacutre Ausf.J no brainer, and ignore mass production upgrade and Ausf.H

Not sure if it's mod team's purpse of design or not. From the "Pz.Kpfw. IV Mass Production" description and its name, I guess the answer is No.
Sth must be massively produced firstly, then it can be seen everywhere in logically. In game, it should reflect on cost reduction, but Ausf.J is very cheap with or without mass production. mass production won't make it any cheaper either.

So currently setting does not make sense in both ways, Ausf.J should be either even further cheaper after enable mass production, or Ausf.J is avaliable only after enable mass production and other mandatory upgrade just like the mass production description said.

[Redgaarden]

Anyway, If mass production is not required for Ausf.J anymore now, it makes this upgrade become meanless for many player unless you need Stug support upgrade in the bottom of the branch (don't remeber the exact name).

Panzer J Quite meaningless after mass production since H starts with skirts and has a much better turret. I thinj the J only fits in that early time period where you can get it cheaper than H. And the suppurt assault group is just a way to get units that dont cost fuel so you can afford to get your heavy tanks, or need tanks when having no fuel.

[Panzerblitz1]

the J only fits in that early time period where you can get it cheaper than H. And the suppurt assault group is just a way to get units that dont cost fuel so you can afford to get your heavy tanks, or need tanks when having no fuel.

Exactely, the J is cheaper with the same H great gun and armor, its slower in turret rotation as it was cracked manually by the crew only, cheaper unit with a good AT gun has some really good advantage like putting more resources on heavier units and still keeping great medium armor on the field.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The off-map combat support group call-in is an equivalent to the Armor doc 76 Jumbo call-in, also.. the IV.J is available as early as the 76 Sherman whereas the EasyEight is available as soon as the IV.H so there is nothing wrong at all here... All balanced.

Armor doc can also produce Shermans cheaper after unlocking the similar mass production.

[out5488]

The off-map combat support group call-in is an equivalent to the Armor doc 76 Jumbo call-in, also.. the IV.J is available as early as the 76 Sherman whereas the EasyEight is available as soon as the IV.H so there is nothing wrong at all here... All balanced.

Armor doc can also produce Shermans cheaper after unlocking the similar mass production.

Let's put the balance aside since we may have different opinion on this.
For histroy accuracy, Sherman(75) appeared on the WWII firstly, then sherman(76), and EasyEight was the last model of Sherman in WWII, so the game.

But for blitzkrieg doc, consider the huge cost gap (80 fuel vs 45 fuel) between H and J before enable "Panzer IV mass production". so J will join combat earlier, then after enable mass production, we can see H appear on battlefiled instead of J. However,H production started from Apr.1943, and J started from Feb.1944.

I understand it's just a game, but as the COH mod that have the most "realistic Weapon damage system" , I hope it would be more realistc on weapon model.

[Panzerblitz1]

The J come after the H, and will come back at it should be.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

But for blitzkrieg doc, consider the huge cost gap (80 fuel vs 45 fuel) between H and J before enable "Panzer IV mass production". so J will join combat earlier, then after enable mass production, we can see H appear on battlefiled instead of J. However,H production started from Apr.1943, and J started from Feb.1944.

I understand it's just a game, but as the COH mod that have the most "realistic Weapon damage system" , I hope it would be more realistc on weapon model.

HUH, realistic then.
tank factories that was built from shit by 6-man squad of sappers, tanks that are "producing" in a those factories from the holy and glory nothing.
"researching" tanks, that was researched a long time ago.
that is not really makes sence, we can say, that we just using a RESERVES from somewhere and not actually RESEARCHING nor PRODUCING units, when we just playing a battle.

[Krieger Blitzer]

But for blitzkrieg doc, consider the huge cost gap (80 fuel vs 45 fuel) between H and J before enable "Panzer IV mass production". so J will join combat earlier, then after enable mass production, we can see H appear on battlefiled instead of J. However,H production started from Apr.1943, and J started from Feb.1944.

Well, even though that historical accuracy doesn't matter much in this game, since that there are a lot of things that would be so arguable on both sides this way, such as the Pershing for example... Currently the Pershing is available as early as the Tiger1 from Terror doc. While if it was about history, then the Pershing would be available only as soon as the King Tiger.. etc. So, historical accuracy in Bk mod doesn't really count.

Balance always comes first, then realism; then the gameplay and fun factors, and perhaps lastly comes the historical accuracy.

However, technically speaking.. the IV.H in the game is actually available earlier than the IV.J and not the opposite! After researching the Pz.4 unlock, you could actually deploy the IV.H straight away... And this only requires 2 command points. It will cost 80 fuel of course, I know. But u still need 1 more command point to have the IV.J as you will have to unlock the upgraded production first.

Regarding the price of the IV.J then i could say that u probably had a point there. Still not really though...
The actual price of this tank is in fact 550 MP and 60 fuel... And it costs like this in PE, but in the Blitz doc.. the situation is different because the IV.J in Blitz doc is unlocked while already being under the effect of mass production, yet without having to unlock mass production first!
That's why it costs only 410 MP and 45 fuel. I mean, it's already mass produced in Blitz doctrine.. unlike in PE on the other hand! The reason for this is because it's called "Blitzkrieg doctrine" of course. So the mass production in this doctrine is supposedly not for the IV.J but only for the IV.H, Ostwind and IV.D the other way around.
And another reason why the IV.J in Blitz doc is too cheap right away or in other words "mass produced" straight ahead without even having to unlock the mass production first.. is because it can't be upgraded with Zimmerit, unlike in PE! Which justifies why the IV.J is more expensive in PE and also can't be mass produced.

So, i would say that the description just needs a correction.. and that's all about it.
The sentence "Mass production is also required to enable production of the Ausf. J" should be just removed from the mass production unlock and then added to the upgraded production unlock in return.

The J come after the H, and will come back at it should be.

Ehm, would just like to draw your attention on this particular part:-

However, technically speaking.. the IV.H in the game is actually available earlier than the IV.J and not the opposite! After researching the Pz.4 unlock, you could actually deploy the IV.H straight away... And this only requires 2 command points. It will cost 80 fuel of course, I know. But u still need 1 more command point to have the IV.J as you will have to unlock the upgraded production first.

So, currently in Blitz doc... IVH requires 2 command points only. Whereas the IVJ requires 3 ones! Which means that the IVJ already comes later btw.

[out5488]

However, technically speaking.. the IV.H in the game is actually available earlier than the IV.J and not the opposite! After researching the Pz.4 unlock, you could actually deploy the IV.H straight away... And this only requires 2 command points. It will cost 80 fuel of course, I know. But u still need 1 more command point to have the IV.J as you will have to unlock the upgraded production first.

I agree with you that the H is technically avaliable 1 CP earlier than J in command tree with 80 fuel cost. However, in reality game, as the opposite way, I usually see J earlier than H.
I think that's because with just one more CP, you can have J with 140 MP & 35 fuel cost reduction compare to H with close combat performance, 35 fuel in that phase is a big thing, that's why I think currently Ausf.J's precondition is not balance : unlock time is too close to Ausf.H and with significant lower cost.

And just like I point out in earlier post, and you metioned it as well, J's cost doen't receive any reduction after enable mass production, or we can say J's cost already receive mass production reduction bonus even without mass production.
it's ironic since the purpose of design of Ausf.J is for mass production by a few performance lost in exchange.

Well, even though that historical accuracy doesn't matter much in this game, since that there are a lot of things that would be so arguable on both sides this way, such as the Pershing for example... Currently the Pershing is available as early as the Tiger1 from Terror doc. While if it was about history, then the Pershing would be available only as soon as the King Tiger.. etc. So, historical accuracy in Bk mod doesn't really count.

It's another story, I think it may not a good idea to compare with the avaliable time of Tiger I and Pershing directly since they're belong to different doctrines and factions, which means they play different role on their own doctrine to fit doctrine's tactical and characteristic.
Back to the H and J, they're belong to the same doctrine, and they're just the different sub model(Ausf.H and J) belong to the same model(Panzer IV), so I thinks they're compareable.

But for blitzkrieg doc, consider the huge cost gap (80 fuel vs 45 fuel) between H and J before enable "Panzer IV mass production". so J will join combat earlier, then after enable mass production, we can see H appear on battlefiled instead of J. However,H production started from Apr.1943, and J started from Feb.1944.

I understand it's just a game, but as the COH mod that have the most "realistic Weapon damage system" , I hope it would be more realistc on weapon model.

HUH, realistic then.
tank factories that was built from shit by 6-man squad of sappers, tanks that are "producing" in a those factories from the holy and glory nothing.
"researching" tanks, that was researched a long time ago.
that is not really makes sence, we can say, that we just using a RESERVES from somewhere and not actually RESEARCHING nor PRODUCING units, when we just playing a battle.

I think the things we discussed in this forum is about the mod experience based on COH mechanism.
There are definitely many more realistic game than Blitzkrieg mod, I'm still palying Combat Misson seriese and Close Combat series sometimes. They're much more realistic than Blitzkrieg mod in tactical simulation. But COH and Blitzkrieg mod based on it has its unique attraction, that you wont's find in those games.

[Panzerblitz1]

the part is that the J came always after the H in Bk, and if its not the case, it means that we made a mistake somewhere, it doesn't make sense to have the cheaper J before the H in game, to get the j you need to unlock pz4 chassis, and mass prod.

Describtion is correct and doesn't need to be corrected.

[out5488]

the part is that the J came always after the H in Bk, and if its not the case, it means that we made a mistake somewhere, it doesn't make sense to have the cheaper J before the H in game.

In reality, I usually see J before H, though technically H is one CP earlier than J. But with just one CP earlier and much more fuel cost. If you need medium tank then, peopole will definitely produce J instead of H (80 fuel vs 45 fuel)with no heistate. I think that's the reason why I usually see J before H in game.
If just like mass production description said, need this upgrade to enable Ausf.J prodution, that means H is 3 CP earlier than J, and when J is just avalialbe, H's cost becomes to competitive with J. (55 fuel vs 45 fuel) It looks like make sense in both balance between units and history.

[Panzerblitz1]

Like i said in order to unlock the j you need the pz4 chassis AND mass prod, it was always that way in bk, we surely made a mistake somewhere if the j doesn't need mass prod anymore, the j will always be cheaper compare to the H as well.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I think that's because with just one more CP, you can have J with 140 MP & 35 fuel cost reduction compare to H with close combat performance, 35 fuel in that phase is a big thing, that's why I think currently Ausf.J's precondition is not balance : unlock time is too close to Ausf.H and with significant lower cost.

Depends on the situation. If u have enough fuel, u would be able to just pay 80 fuel and afford an IVH right away, while saving this 1 command point elsewhere! Instead of wasting it on the IVJ when u already have enough resources for the better IVH.

Also, it's not exactly the same performance.. because IVJ has much slower turret, and u still need to upgrade skirts. Not to mention that the turret can only rotate 180 degrees, 90 to the right and another to the left... And not 360 degrees like the IVH.

And just like I point out in earlier post, and you metioned it as well, J's cost doen't receive any reduction after enable mass production, or we can say J's cost already receive mass production reduction bonus even without mass production.
it's ironic since the purpose of design of Ausf.J is for mass production by a few performance lost in exchange.

Yes, like i said too.. the IVJ is already "mass produced" in Blitz doctrine. So, it doesn't need the mass production unlock... Therefore the mass production unlock affects IVH, Ostwind and IV.D only.

That's why i said u have a point here.. but I also gave some reasons why it's like that!
However, at the end some changes can be applied here...

>>> IVJ can cost 550MP/60F before the mass production is unlocked, which is actually the original price of this tank! But then it will be cheaper after mass production unlock, being 410MP/45F again <<<
I wouldn't really mind that at all, cuz this would be quite legit. But at the end... The IVJ would surely remain being available as soon as the upgraded production unlock as it is currently. So, the description would still need some correction!

It's another story, I think it may not a good idea to compare with the avaliable time of Tiger I and Pershing directly since they're belong to different doctrines and factions, which means they have differernt tactical and characteristic.
Back to the H and J, they're belong to the same doctrine, and they're just the different sub model(Ausf.H and J) belong to the same model(Panzer IV), so I thinks they're compareable.

Ya, i know.. but that was just an example anyway.

In reality, I usually see J before H, though technically H is one CP earlier than J. But the just one CP earlier and much more fuel cost. If you need medium tank then, peopole will definitely produce J instead of H (80 fuel vs 45 fuel)with no heistate. I think that's the reason why I usually see J before H in game.
If just like mass production description said, need this upgrade to enable Ausf.J prodution, that means H is 3 CP earlier than J, and when J is just avalialbe, H's cost become to competitive with J. (55 fuel vs 45 fuel)

No, i am afraid u r wrong. This way you are carelessly delaying IVJ with 2 command points!!
Which would be too much.
And everyone will just choose the IVH then! Players currently manage to deploy IVJ only because it's cheaper. But when IVH is also cheaper at the same time... No one would deploy IVJ anymore.

Lastly, I also like Combat Mission btw.. such a great game indeed.
But plz keep in mind that u can always edit your post rather than double posting twice in a row

Like i said in order to unlock the j you need the pz4 chassis AND mass prod, it was always that way in bk, we surely made a mistake somewhere if the j doesn't need mass prod anymore, the j will always be cheaper compare to the H.

Hmm? in order to unlock the IVJ, you only needed Pz.4 unlock AND upgraded production. Not mass production! It has always been like that... The only mistake would be delaying the IVJ with 2 command points now.

Do u realize how many command points will be required for the IVJ if u delay it until the mass production??
Currently it requires 3, but this way you are making it 5!!

I think i really gotta go continue studying right now anyway.

[out5488]

Lastly, I also like Combat Mission btw.. such a great game indeed.
But plz keep in mind that u can always edit your post rather than double posting twice in a row

Yes, Combat Mission is definitely a great game with its mixture of turn-based and real-time mechanism, and have many combat unit with detailed spec(armor, gun, shell, speed and etc)

And thanks for your suggestion about edit, I'm not a native English speaker so I'm afraid I didn't express my means well sometimes, that's why I decribe it in detail again, it may looks like double posting but actually I did tried to change some word and the way of expression, though the result seems like not much different with the original description.

[Leonida [525]]

I think main problem occurs when both H and J are unlocked and "mass producted". From that moment J becomes obsolete, there are really no reason why player should choose J instead of H, given the very little price difference and ammo needed for skirts and so on for the j
- One possible solution could be another discount for only ausf J later, maybe after upgraded production of Heavy panzer factory. In this way u could have a decent and very cheap medium tank (like 400-40 or all upgrades unlocked but this is only an idea) only in very late game.
- Or after mass production u have J at the actual price but with skirts or/and ammo already upgraded
Just a suggestion

[Panzerblitz1]

Edit: ok, so we will keep the current settings, and correct the describtion, after a long talk with the team, we decide to keep it that way, like that you can build H and save for skirts and need less micro, or you can build J which requires more micro and ammo for skirts (if you want them) but are cheaper and save resources for big cats.

[out5488]

Edit: ok, so we will keep the current settings, and correct the describtion, after a long talk with the team, we decide to keep it that way, like that you can build H and save for skirts and need less micro, or you can build J which requires more micro and ammo for skirts (if you want them) but are cheaper and save resources for big cats.

It looks like kind of compromise to long-term exsiting error, I'm a bit disappoint about the decision.
But will still respect it since it's mod team's purpose of design.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Edit: ok, so we will keep the current settings, and correct the describtion, after a long talk with the team, we decide to keep it that way, like that you can build H and save for skirts and need less micro, or you can build J which requires more micro and ammo for skirts (if you want them) but are cheaper and save resources for big cats.

Cool... Very glad to hear This is for sure the right thing to do, it's just the description that needs some correction.. because delaying the IVJ with 2 command points sounded pretty odd to be honest.
Otherwise it would have been literally mid-game killing for Blitz doc, no doubt!

@out5488
So sorry to disappoint you, but I hope you are fine with this... Because IVJ already requires 3 command points, whereas the IVH requires only 2 command points. It's true that the IVH would cost 80 fuel then.. but like I said, depending on the situation.. you could be still able to just afford this amount of 80 fuel and deploy the IVH before the IVJ if you had enough resources, while saving up 1 command point for the StormTroops or anything else. in this scenario, the IVH is surely available earlier! Not the opposite.

And just for the sake of pointing it out again, the reason why the IVJ is mass produced straight away in Blitz doc.. is because it can't be upgraded with Zimmerit, unlike in tank hunter doctrine.. which adds more HP, making both your IVJ as well as your IVH much stronger. That's also why the IVJ costs 550 MP/60 fuel in tank hunter doc, as it can't be mass produced at all or become any cheaper.
Another reason why the IVJ is mass produced straight away in Blitz doc, costing only 410MP/45F and not 550MP/60 fuel on the other hand, even before unlocking the mass production upgrade.. is because Blitz doctrine is simply meant to be like this way!
Therefore the IVJ doesn't get affected with the mass production unlock at all. As it won't get any cheaper after unlocking the mass production unlock either... Since it's already "mass produced by default" while being already cheap.
However; I still offered a possible solution to this...

>>> IVJ can cost 550MP/60F before the mass production is unlocked, which is actually the original price of this tank! But then it will be cheaper after mass production unlock, being 410MP/45F again <<<
I wouldn't really mind that at all, cuz this would be quite legit. But at the end... The IVJ would surely remain being available as soon as the upgraded production unlock as it is currently. So, the description would still need some correction!

As it's more like an option that "could be" applied if necessary...

[Redgaarden]

I think main problem occurs when both H and J are unlocked and "mass producted". From that moment J becomes obsolete, there are really no reason why player should choose J instead of H, given the very little price difference and ammo needed for skirts and so on for the j
- One possible solution could be another discount for only ausf J later, maybe after upgraded production of Heavy panzer factory. In this way u could have a decent and very cheap medium tank (like 400-40 or all upgrades unlocked but this is only an idea) only in very late game.
- Or after mass production u have J at the actual price but with skirts or/and ammo already upgraded
Just a suggestion

In a optimal late game you would like to replace all your pz4 with panthers so even the pz H becomes obsolete in the end.

[speeddemon02]

Is there a difference between the build times between the J and the H? I feel the resources needed are too close and I always go with the H over the J. Maybe making the J faster than the H would also help give it a buff that is not on the battlefield.

[MarKr]

Yes, H version takes 75 seconds to build, J version takes 60 - those are basic build times...they get lowered by 25% with the "fast poduction" unlock and by 50% by Officer's "Suppervision" ability.

[out5488]

Is there a difference between the build times between the J and the H? I feel the resources needed are too close and I always go with the H over the J. Maybe making the J faster than the H would also help give it a buff that is not on the battlefield.

Before enable mass production, the cost different between J and H are huge: 45 fuel vs 80 fuel.

@out5488
So sorry to disappoint you, but I hope you are fine with this... Because IVJ already requires 3 command points, whereas the IVH requires only 2 command points. It's true that the IVH would cost 80 fuel then.. but like I said, depending on the situation.. you could be still able to just afford this amount of 80 fuel and deploy the IVH before the IVJ if you had enough resources, while saving up 1 command point for the StormTroops or anything else. in this scenario, the IVH is surely available earlier! Not the opposite.

To be honest, according to my experiece if I have 80 fuels then, I will definitely prefer to produce 2 J instead of 1 H, no matter how slow turrent that J have and the fact it lacks of skirts, 1 H has no way to compare with 2 J in combat performance in any scenario.(or in another word: if I have 45 fuel then I will produce J directly instead of wait it to 80 then produce H). I can't image the situation to produce H in that phase unless I forgot to produce tank in right time and have plenty of resource.
Anyway, if it's the decision then that's it.

@out5488 EDIT your post, don't dounble post. (Panzerblitz1)