Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

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Le Grand Conde
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Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Le Grand Conde » 01 Apr 2017, 16:23

Just a few months ago I returned to Blitzkrieg Mod and I was quite surprised how several things about Königstigers are solved. As much as I consider especially the latest patches a great job (2-second aiming delay for hand-operated AT weapons (Bazooka, PIAT, Panzerschreck) is in my personal opinion very good idea), there is still something that looks quite strange......so lets be specific:

How it was in real WW2: Alright, through my whole life, I was always keeping deep interest in WW2 armoured vehicles. While there is not a huge number of literature that would be providing readers with any sort of really misleading "half-facts", on the internet there is still (at least in the Central Europe) a long term fashion of dilettante performed armor-penetration calculations, many times ignoring even the most crucial aspects. (For the next claim I am using I.Pejczochs studies about "Armoured Engineering" as primar resource.) Hellcat or Sherman Firefly really should not be able to penetrate the frontal armour of Königstiger. 180-150 mm of slant armour worked very good against standard 76-90 mm. Even in the famous duel of Königstiger vs "Super" Perhing, "Super" Pershing was not able to penetrate the frontal armour of its opponent, until unexperienced German tank crew tryed to ride on a top of pile of rubble, exposing bottom armour.
However, some resourceful US tank commanders find out that they actually can destroy Königstigers from the front-but using white phosphorus projectiles-it still could not penetrate the armour, but the intensity of the flame was so high, that joins in the armour burst and Königstiger crew is burned alive (....fun fact, actually, I believe that people who found this out were actualy fighting on the standard A4 (76 mm) Shermans, not on tank destroyers....).

What is my suggestion: Yes, I realize that Blitzkrieg Mod is not suppoused to be pure WW2 simulator-yet I think heavy tanks combat can be both more realistic and "interesting" for both sides.

A) Make Königstigers and "Super" Pershings frontal armour impenetrable with standard ammo, because:
1) It will be more realistic.
2) It will make Allies to focus on Königstiger (or Axis on "Super" Pershing) slightly more when its on the battlefield. It wont be enough to just send in a Hellcat-now it will be necesarry to send in Hellcat AND equip it with special ammo (of course it does not have to be any new sort of ammo.....) And when (if) "Super" Pershing meets face to face with Königstiger, it SHOULD be "clash of titans" (I mean that they should have trouble destroying each other), until one or both players equip his tank with "his" version of special AT ammunition.
3) It might add a nice "heavy-tank combat" feeling to these vehicles.

B) Make Königstiger and "Super" Pershing cost slightly more (about 300 MP for SP and 200 MP+10 fuel for KT, maybe?) or make just "Super" Pershing cost more and give Königstiger some troubles with engine-I mean when Königstiger is hit by a high caliber HE round, engine might be damaged and suddenly whole vehicle more vulnerable to artillery/airstrikes/flanking.....(damaged, not destroyed).


But I would not like to be misunderstand, I really love the BK mod and would never play CoH without it, even so long after creating the original game BK mod Team si doing such a great job.....cant thank enough.

P.S.: Pardon for my English.....
Last edited by Le Grand Conde on 01 Apr 2017, 16:38, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 01 Apr 2017, 16:33

Well the SP and KT are already very very strong to pierce from the front except for tank hunters equipped with 17 pdr's and 90mm, 88's anti tank guns and arty strikes of course, so currently it is perfectly fine, prices as well, the only way to take down those big babies with more efficiency is from side/rear.

De rien ;)
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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Le Grand Conde » 01 Apr 2017, 17:06

Right......except for tank hunters equipped with 17 pdrs and 90 mm/88 mm :) I think this is perfectly fine (and realistic) for Tiger I and Pershing, but it makes both KT and SP just a slightly stronger versions of previous vehicles-that means they mostly dont really have the power to play a significant role on the late game battlefield......it feels strange that the WW2 most efective tank usually have no more than 2-3 tank kills (....running every time 2 Hellcats apears before its nose, almost same as Panther). Lets talk about Tigers. While we compare Tiger I frontal armour with Tiger II, its 100 mm against 180 mm, the difference in the game is little bit unsatisfactory-if I should be optimistic, it takes 1-2 90mm hits to destroy Tiger I and 2-3 hits for Königstiger-but mostly both tanks needs just 2 hits. In my perspective it should take 1-2 90mm hits to destroy Tiger I and 1-2 special ammunition hits for Königstiger.

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MarKr
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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby MarKr » 01 Apr 2017, 17:39

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Hellcat has frontally 5.4% chance at max range to penetrate KT which is very low and represents more of a "lucky shot" rather than "reliable counter". Even if the lucky shot penetrates KT, it will not destroy it. However I am not sure if you are familiar with the terms of "frontal" and "rear" armor in CoH in general...there is no "side armor" in the game and "front armor" means "front half of the vehicle" while "rear armor" means "rear half of the vehicle" - because of this it is possible to score a "rear hit" from the front in case the target doesn't directly face the attacker. This might lead to assumption that the armor is weak...however we cannot do anything about this, it is engine limitation.
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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Tiger1996 » 01 Apr 2017, 18:44

Le Grand Conde wrote:B) Make Königstiger and "Super" Pershing cost slightly more (about 300 MP for SP and 200 MP+10 fuel for KT, maybe?) or make just "Super" Pershing cost more and give Königstiger some troubles with engine-I mean when Königstiger is hit by a high caliber HE round, engine might be damaged and suddenly whole vehicle more vulnerable to artillery/airstrikes/flanking.....(damaged, not destroyed).

Hello!

I can see you have actually brought up some valid points. But I must disagree with any suggestions that could offer any higher cost for the King Tiger... Because currently, the King Tiger is already the most expensive unit in the game. And if there is any issue with the KT, then it's not how 17pdr and 90mm guns are capable of penetrating it from the front.. but most likely it's the price of the KT which is actually not really justified.

in fact, the SP has much bigger potential in PvP games and usually plays the role of a game changer... Since it's somehow available earlier and is actually cheaper. If we come to compare the prices of the SP and the KT then you would quickly find out that the KT is by far the most expensive unit in the game.

SP cost:-
9 direct Command Points + 2000 MP. JUST that!
It comes with a tank commander inside it by default and doesn't need any upgrades, since it doesn't have HE shells anyway.. and both APCR rounds and scopes are upgraded by default...
Though, we should definitely keep in mind that it's available only for a once.

KT cost:- (cheaper version)
11 direct Command Points + 1200 MP + 220 MP for the tank commander + 150 ammo upgrades (HE, APCR, and scopes) + 200 fuel.

So, any price increase for the King Tiger isn't acceptable anyhow. Even if you suggest improving it in return...


The King Tiger has good armor, and is generally not bad itself. But the price of the King Tiger - in my humble opinion - is a little bit too much and makes it more of a "game finisher" rather than a "game changer" unlike the SP, if anything; then probably that's why the King Tiger doesn't really have a good potential in PvP games.
It's because of the price...

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Le Grand Conde » 02 Apr 2017, 17:39

MarKr wrote:Hello and welcome to the forum.

Hellcat has frontally 5.4% chance at max range to penetrate KT which is very low and represents more of a "lucky shot" rather than "reliable counter". Even if the lucky shot penetrates KT, it will not destroy it.


Yes, but as combat in CoH is generally conducted on relatively short distance, it is easy for Hellcat to use its high speed and get much closer. M18 is relatively cheap, when two of them are operating at the same place against one Königstiger, both are going to get close fast and at least one of them is likely to get to the side of the heavy tank. I have these feeling that even if Königstiger is supported by Panzer IV, US will lose one Hellcat in exchange for destroyed Königstiger. *

But I was, actually, trying to talk more about tank destroyers vs Königstiger in general. So what I still have in mind is more like M36 and Sherman Firefly (well, yes, I guess I should have written "M36" in the 2) point of my suggestion, instead of "M18"). When M36 meets Königstiger, both needs two hits (+-) to destroy its opponent, they are mostly fighting like heavy tank against heavy tank. And M36 is still way cheaper than Königstiger. That means I would still recommend making KTs front armour impenetrable with standard ammunition.

Tiger1996 wrote:
SP cost:-
9 direct Command Points + 2000 MP. JUST that!
It comes with a tank commander inside it by default and doesn't need any upgrades, since it doesn't have HE shells anyway.. and both APCR rounds and scopes are upgraded by default...
Though, we should definitely keep in mind that it's available only for a once.

KT cost:- (cheaper version)
11 direct Command Points + 1200 MP + 220 MP for the tank commander + 150 ammo upgrades (HE, APCR, and scopes) + 200 fuel.

So, any price increase for the King Tiger isn't acceptable anyhow. Even if you suggest improving it in return...



Good point though. Alright, there still might be a solution (two options in my opinion):

1) What about decreasing M36/Sherman Firefly "health bar", so it would be no longer able to keep fighting after one hit from Königstiger 88 mm? All in all, I believe these tank hunters should not survive more than average Sherman. Of course price of M36/Sherman Firefly would be slightly reduced too (about 150 MP and 20 fuel for both perhaps?). Allies tank destroyers would be more like "protection against heavy tanks" rather than "heavy tanks hunters". Instead of riding into frontal combat, US/GB player would now have to use his vehicles more resourcefully-like stop Königstiger advance by laying his M36 behind some building, so it would have a first shot in duel and grant enough time to use artilery/send in reinforcements/anything else.

2) Both decreasing M36/Sherman Firefly/Nashorn "health bar" (and price) and making KT and SP front armour impenetrable with standard ammunition (as in my first suggestion).
+possibly increase "Super" Pershing price for 250-300 MP and decrease Königstiger price for 1-2 Command Points, 150 MP and 20 fuel-but give it some troubles with engine as compensation.



And of course thanks for the welcome :)

Tiger1996....am I right you are the one Tiger1996 known as Krieg Blitzer on YouTube? Very good match records commentary I must say!

P.S.: When I talk about KT, M36 etc. I have still the overall SP/KT situation against "lightly" armoured tank destroyers/hunters (M18, M36, Firefly, Nashorn....) in mind, sometimes my expression might not be the clearest I am affraid

*But okay, this is just my personal experience, it might be easy to see it different way here.....

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Tiger1996 » 02 Apr 2017, 19:30

That means I would still recommend making KTs front armour impenetrable with standard ammunition.

Well, interestingly enough.. I have recently made some sort of a test where I managed to examine the frontal armor of the KT... The 90mm guns proved to be not really capable of penetrating the King Tiger at max range! in fact; even the SP struggled so much to penetrate the KT at max range using standard AP shells. I was even kinda surprised with these results.. as I thought the KT would be weaker than this.

But if you are speaking more specifically about the regular 90mm guns of the jacksons and the Pershings.. then you would also have to keep in mind that the basic range of the King Tiger is actually higher than those tanks. I mean that the King Tiger obviously has a range advantage... Not to mention that when the KT is veteran, you could also use the accurate long range shot...
Which would out-range any Allied tank in the game by far. So, I think that this particular statement by you:-
When M36 meets Königstiger, both needs two hits (+-) to destroy its opponent, they are mostly fighting like heavy tank against heavy tank.

Doesn't precisely reflect the reality to be honest.

Speaking of the Firefly however, I can actually agree that it's a little bit over-performing. Even though the Firefly has only 15% chances of penetrating the King Tiger's frontal armor at max range using standard AP shells... But what makes the Firefly so good, is the fact that it's available in all CW docs, and with the static position activated.. it gains some range bonus and such a very high rate of fire. While it's also relatively cheap compared to Jacksons! Not just that, but actually the Firefly can out-range the basic range of the King Tiger when boosted by the command Cromwell.. as it would gain even more range then.

The M36 B1 can also out-range the basic range of the KT when the static position is activated together with the boost of the Command car. But the B1 is available only in Armor doc and is limited to only 3 pieces at at time... And is also more expensive than the Firefily! Not to mention that it requires more command points as well. So, the Jackson is probably fine!
Though, the Firefly - like I already said - might be a little over-performing, yes.

What about decreasing M36/Sherman Firefly "health bar", so it would be no longer able to keep fighting after one hit from Königstiger 88 mm? All in all, I believe these tank hunters should not survive more than average Sherman. Of course price of M36/Sherman Firefly would be slightly reduced too (about 150 MP and 20 fuel for both perhaps?). Allies tank destroyers would be more like "protection against heavy tanks" rather than "heavy tanks hunters". Instead of riding into frontal combat, US/GB player would now have to use his vehicles more resourcefully-like stop Königstiger advance by laying his M36 behind some building, so it would have a first shot in duel and grant enough time to use artilery/send in reinforcements/anything else.

The HP of the M36 (not B1) was already reduced on 4.9.6 and the armor was nerfed too. The B1 however, has better armor and slightly more HP... But it's more expensive and doesn't have flank speed or the capability to ambush. So - again - I would say Jacksons are pretty fine now!

Firefly costs same as JagdPz.IV (L/70) which is too deadly btw, as it could effectively penetrate the SP from ambush.. if anything, then I would rather suggest reducing the rate of fire of the Firefly, as I actually believe it's insanely high at the moment.

Tiger1996....am I right you are the one Tiger1996 known as Krieg Blitzer on YouTube? Very good match records commentary I must say!

I am too shy for this :D Thanks ;)

At last, if you don't mind me asking... Do you play PvP games? if so, then would you mind telling your profile name on Steam? Just so that players would know who you are.. and perhaps we could play together as well :) Or did it happen already that we have met on the game lobby?! ^^

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 02 Apr 2017, 19:33

Nah man sorry,better leave as it or we need ton's of more Patches until all is balanced.
SunZiom: but true is you`re only one man which i know who really know how play PE

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby MarKr » 03 Apr 2017, 01:49

Le Grand Conde wrote:Yes, but as combat in CoH is generally conducted on relatively short distance, it is easy for Hellcat to use its high speed and get much closer. M18 is relatively cheap, when two of them are operating at the same place against one Königstiger, both are going to get close fast and at least one of them is likely to get to the side of the heavy tank. I have these feeling that even if Königstiger is supported by Panzer IV, US will lose one Hellcat in exchange for destroyed Königstiger. *

But I was, actually, trying to talk more about tank destroyers vs Königstiger in general. So what I still have in mind is more like M36 and Sherman Firefly (well, yes, I guess I should have written "M36" in the 2) point of my suggestion, instead of "M18"). When M36 meets Königstiger, both needs two hits (+-) to destroy its opponent, they are mostly fighting like heavy tank against heavy tank. And M36 is still way cheaper than Königstiger. That means I would still recommend making KTs front armour impenetrable with standard ammunition.
I don't think that situation is as grim as you describe it...some numbers first:
KT has 1200-1250HP (Based on version)
damage:
675 - 825

M36 (Wolverine chassis) has 600 HP
M36B1 (Sherman chassis) has 700 HP
Firefly has 700 HP
So KT will one-shot these units.

90mm guns have 650-800 damage.
23.2% frontal pen. at max range and 92.8% rear
40% front. at very close range, more than 100% rear pen. at close range
So Jacksons need at least two penetrative shots to destroy KT but frontal penetration is significantly worse at any distance and Axis player will surely focus them as they are the main threat to KT.

17 pounders have 450-650 damage
14.75% front.pen. at max range, 59% rear
25% front. at very close range, 100% rear pen. at close range
These will need 2-3 penetrative shots while their penetration is worse than 90mm guns and again they will be primary target.

And as for Hellcats - 4.5% chance frontally at max range (10% frontally at closest range); 13.5% rear at max range (25% rear from closest range) - this is far from "dangerous" for KT.
(Penetration values do not include AP ammo)

The truth is that KTs are usually destroyed by airstrikes or arty...or SP, these tank hunters have some chance to destroy KT but in 1v1 scenario KT has big advantage. ;)
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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Le Grand Conde » 04 Apr 2017, 18:48

Tiger1996 wrote:Doesn't precisely reflect the reality to be honest.

The M36 B1 can also out-range the basic range of the KT when the static position is activated together with the boost of the Command car. But the B1 is available only in Armor doc and is limited to only 3 pieces at at time... And is also more expensive than the Firefily! Not to mention that it requires more command points as well. So, the Jackson is probably fine!
Though, the Firefly - like I already said - might be a little over-performing, yes.

The HP of the M36 (not B1) was already reduced on 4.9.6 and the armor was nerfed too. The B1 however, has better armor and slightly more HP... But it's more expensive and doesn't have flank speed or the capability to ambush. So - again - I would say Jacksons are pretty fine now!


MarKr wrote:I don't think that situation is as grim as you describe it...some numbers first:
KT has 1200-1250HP (Based on version)
damage:
675 - 825

M36 (Wolverine chassis) has 600 HP
M36B1 (Sherman chassis) has 700 HP
Firefly has 700 HP
So KT will one-shot these units.

90mm guns have 650-800 damage.
23.2% frontal pen. at max range and 92.8% rear
40% front. at very close range, more than 100% rear pen. at close range
So Jacksons need at least two penetrative shots to destroy KT but frontal penetration is significantly worse at any distance and Axis player will surely focus them as they are the main threat to KT.

17 pounders have 450-650 damage
14.75% front.pen. at max range, 59% rear
25% front. at very close range, 100% rear pen. at close range
These will need 2-3 penetrative shots while their penetration is worse than 90mm guns and again they will be primary target.

And as for Hellcats - 4.5% chance frontally at max range (10% frontally at closest range); 13.5% rear at max range (25% rear from closest range) - this is far from "dangerous" for KT.
(Penetration values do not include AP ammo)

The truth is that KTs are usually destroyed by airstrikes or arty...or SP, these tank hunters have some chance to destroy KT but in 1v1 scenario KT has big advantage. ;)


Well, I guess I owe you apologize here. I was mostly describing my experience from an older version, and when I started with 4.96 (4.97) it all felt same to me-but due to this numbers, it must have been just a seriously bud luck. I tried some more Königstiger fights against AI and the whole armour/M36 Health situation proved mostly better than I thought. My mistake.

Tiger1996 wrote:
Speaking of the Firefly however, I can actually agree that it's a little bit over-performing. Even though the Firefly has only 15% chances of penetrating the King Tiger's frontal armor at max range using standard AP shells... But what makes the Firefly so good, is the fact that it's available in all CW docs, and with the static position activated.. it gains some range bonus and such a very high rate of fire. While it's also relatively cheap compared to Jacksons! Not just that, but actually the Firefly can out-range the basic range of the King Tiger when boosted by the command Cromwell.. as it would gain even more range then.


I still have to agree with this observation though. While otherwise I would consider fine both Firefly prize and fact that it is avilable to all three doctrines, the static position rate of fire is really weird. (Especially if you consider historical performances of these tanks-the gun was "too powerful" for Sherman, leading to very strong "shock" after each shot (which was apparently one of the main reasons why Fireflyes werent really popular among the tank crews), sometimes so strong that members of crew could lose their consciousness for a few seconds (Tiger vs Sherman Firefly: Normandy 1944, Osprey) and smoke (outside, not inside of course) made it very difficult to aim again for a (in the matter of seconds) short moment. I personally sort of believe M18/M36 (and maybe generally US tank destroyers) were significantly better if it would come to real combat rate of fire.) I would definitely agree with suggestion to decreasing Sherman Firefly static position rate of fire...

Tiger1996 wrote:Firefly costs same as JagdPz.IV (L/70) which is too deadly btw, as it could effectively penetrate the SP from ambush...


I guess JagdPz.IV (L/70) could be slightly more expensive....but here I would still rather improve SP front armour.



Due to the disccusion (for which I thank all of you), here are: New/changed suggestions about KT/SP and TDs:

1) Decrease the prize of Königstiger for 2 VP, so it might have a chance to get in the game sooner (and make some difference). In return increase the Sturmtiger prize for 1-2 VP and 250 MP (and give it its MG 34 in the frontal armour plate (if it is not just a bug that there is none right now)-I believe that current prize of Sturmtiger was intended just for the reasons of real game testing anyway, I guess?).

2) Reduce Sherman Firefly "static position" rate of fire (and maybe even that small range bonus).

3) (Still) Improve Königstigers and SPs front armour, increase SP prize for 250-300 MP and place one more VP point somewhere in the Teror doctrine tree (I mean somewhere else than in the tank branch).




Tiger1996 wrote:At last, if you don't mind me asking... Do you play PvP games? if so, then would you mind telling your profile name on Steam? Just so that players would know who you are.. and perhaps we could play together as well :) Or did it happen already that we have met on the game lobby?! ^^


Well, I am playing through LAN only (due to some problems with activating my (old) CoH (Gold Edition: CoH and CoH Opposing Fronts) on Steam...but I hope I will find some way how to fix it soon). But, if there is anyone playing Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad/Rising Storm, you can find me under nick "Gandalf The White" ;) )

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Tiger1996 » 04 Apr 2017, 21:35

1) Decrease the prize of Königstiger for 2 VP, so it might have a chance to get in the game sooner (and make some difference). In return increase the Sturmtiger prize for 1-2 VP and 250 MP (and give it its MG 34 in the frontal armour plate (if it is not just a bug that there is none right now)-I believe that current prize of Sturmtiger was intended just for the reasons of real game testing anyway, I guess?).

I actually like this suggestion, which is basically all about delaying SturmTiger while allowing the King Tiger a bit earlier in return.

But there is something you should probably keep in mind...
and place one more VP point somewhere in the Teror doctrine tree (I mean somewhere else than in the tank branch).

in BK, all docs are equally set to have total 30 command points per each.. which means that it's not possible to just add or remove any points randomly.
For example, allowing the KT 1 command point earlier means that the SturmTiger would be delayed by 1 command point. And allowing the KT earlier by 2 command points means that the SturmTiger would be delayed by 2 command points the other way around...

Well, I am playing through LAN only (due to some problems with activating my (old) CoH (Gold Edition: CoH and CoH Opposing Fronts) on Steam...but I hope I will find some way how to fix it soon). But, if there is anyone playing Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad/Rising Storm, you can find me under nick "Gandalf The White" ;) )

I honestly searched this username, and astonishingly enough.. i found more than 1,900 results! :D I don't play Red Orchestra though... However, you can still send me the link to your Steam profile in a private message, only if u would like to ;)

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Le Grand Conde » 06 Apr 2017, 16:49

Tiger1996 wrote:
But there is something you should probably keep in mind...
and place one more VP point somewhere in the Teror doctrine tree (I mean somewhere else than in the tank branch).

in BK, all docs are equally set to have total 30 command points per each.. which means that it's not possible to just add or remove any points randomly.


Ops, pardon, I sort of was not aware of that one. Seems that this finaly ends my small Königstiger-armour-improving crusade.... Yet, in that case of course:

Suggestions

1) Decrease the prize of Königstiger for 2 VP, so it might have a chance to get in the game sooner (and make some more difference). In return increase the Sturmtiger prize for 2 VP (and give it its MG 34 in the frontal armour plate (if it is not just a bug that there is none right now)-I believe that current prize of Sturmtiger was intended just for the reasons of real game testing anyway, I guess?).

2) Reduce Sherman Firefly "static position" rate of fire.

Bonus Idea
This one is really just an silly idea, but when there already is cheaper (Henschel) Königstiger version..... At the very end of production of the "old" Tiger I, due to lack of resources the "caster wheels" (I hope this is the right term in english......but we all still know what I am talking about, right?) were no longer lined with rubber, instead were whole made of steel. That means such a vehicle was sort of "cheaper", but much louder when in movement. So perhaps it could be possible to add new "cheap version" of Königstiger, which would not just have no MG 42 on the top of the turret, but also be significantly louder (with some gride and such...)...so Allies might be able to notice its presence sooner (similar to the way V1 used to "scream"....of course similar, not same, to hear such noise through whole minutes would no doubt be annoying as hell). Maybe then, "cheaper" (Henschel) version of Königstiger could cost only about 1000 MP and 180 fuel?

I realize that this is quite a "brave" idea (+I have these feeling that this economies were only aplied on Tiger I production, so it would not be really historically accurate either), however.....it could be another way around, if reduction of the VP prize would not be enough.

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby JimQwilleran » 06 Apr 2017, 18:24

It's nice to see someone with so many new ideas, and not yet sarcastic and routine enough to predict how much fighting could occur on this forum, as it always do happen even about the smallest changes. Isn't the idea of making cheaper version of KT louder truly out of the box? I would never come up with such one (although in my early bk days I used to have many ideas as well). Regrettably changing anything here has always been a really hard thing to do.. Unless you have enough time and strong will to keep producing really huge amounts of persuasive posts. [read: spam] (and I am talking about thousands of them here)

I don't aim at discouraging you. Even though I disagree with changing the balance between KT and SP, I'd really like to see you coming up with more ideas.

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby mofetagalactica » 17 Apr 2017, 01:01

Suggestions
Make the Königstiger a 1 call unit like the "super" pershing :), then reduce his price. gg balanced units for both sides easy.

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Re: Königstiger vs Tank Destroyers

Postby Le Grand Conde » 18 Apr 2017, 17:20

mofetagalactica wrote:Suggestions
Make the Königstiger a 1 call unit like the "super" pershing :), then reduce his price. gg balanced units for both sides easy.


Well :) that would sound like a solution as well of course :) But I am not really fan of balancing through the way of making units of the opposing sides identical myself. +"one call only limit" of SP vs standard production of KT is a nice historical detail.

However, this also reminds me that there is one thing I have not pointed out when first writing about this topic. Its about comparing Königstiger with "old" Terror Tiger I, more precisely about the speed of both vehicles. Since artillery is pretty much the best option against these heavy tanks, speed is quite often a crucial survive ability (in my opinion it plays a significant role in any other situation as well, does not matter if you are running from tank destroyers or hunting escaping enemy). Königstiger might have more HPs, but once any tank is seriously hit with artillery in BK, it is lightly going to be destroyed very soon (which is completely realistical and fine and I have nothing against it). I believe that due to "old" Tiger "speed boost" ability is "old" Tiger actually able to survive on the battlefield for much longer than Königstiger (which is, however, quite hard to prove, since KT gets into the fight significantly later, usually close to the end and against more artillery threads as well). Tiger I is still less deadly on the battlefield, but according to what I have said sooner, maybe even current MP/Fuel cost of Königstiger is too high.


Suggestion (about Königstiger only)

Decrease the price of Königstiger for 2 VP and 250MP and 25 Fuel*, so it might have a chance to get in the game sooner (and make some more difference). In return increase the Sturmtiger price for 2 VP and 250 MP (and give it its frontal plate MG 34).





*I am talking about the "expensive" version. The "cheap" version might be completely removed after this...


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