Inf doc is the weakest?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

How is it going everyone, after playing plenty of matches on an up to date BK version I decided to bring up a discussion regarding USA infantry doctrine, because it feels extremely underwhelming to me, especially in 3v3 and 4v4 games. Thing is, doctrine doesn't have any top tier late game units, it's Infantry units are very fragile and requires AMAZING micro to be effective.

I mean, what's useful inf doc can provide to the team during late game stage? It can't handle a fight with storms or luft paratroopers, artillery pieces are expensive and pretty miserable ( almost every axis doc can counter inf doc arty ) emplacements are meh, and the biggest issue is their AT capabilities, with handled AT nerf they ve lost their single option to aggressively advance on enemy armor ( swarm of infantry with zooks ).

The point is that doc missing some special flavor, I mean you certainly can say that RE is cool with "push enemy with defense", AB is the best in applying constant push followed by deadly Airstrikes, Armor doc can field best allied tanks and etc. All this docs have a very solid set of core units which always work great ( same goes to axis, besides crappy TH ), while inf doc is about nothing, it has so so arty, swarms of weak infantry which can backfire by feeding axis units with exp and a single good tank ( Jumbo ) which basically does the same job as Armor doc M4 for twice of its price, often in late game I have plenty of res but I simply don't know where to invest them, because everthing falls apart painfully easy, ranger spam - food for axis inf if not veted, arty is an easy target for SE, moreover doc get absolutely smashed by heavy tanks.

This idea hit my mind because I barely ever see inf doc in pvp, when it appears inf doc player gets humiliated HARD.

Let me hear your opinions.

[crimax]

Hi,
tons of arguments can be tell about .... anyway ...
the weakest doctrine has the weakest arty ... wrong.

This report me to an old thread I opened in past:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=788&p=8023#p8018
OK, it is not totally related to this but generally talking, yes.

An error was done when we added the howtizer to RAF doc and not giving back the second Jumbo 105mm to infantry doc.

Results:
1) The mainly inf/arty based US doc, has the weakest arty.
2) A step forward to de-specializing doctrines, making them all similar each others (boring to play mod)

That's my opinions.

Solutions ?
-Give back second jumbo 105 to inf doc.
-More cheap arty cost to inf doc.

Secondary (this introduces another question/problem IMHO):
IF you all decide to not introduce limitations to defence emplacements (bunkers, static mortars, etc.) we are OK.
IF limitations will be introduced then LIMIT fixed/mobile arty to any other doctrines EXCEPT the arty based ones (RA, Inf, Def, SE)

In other words, too much arty AND everywhere in this mod)

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I think you are absolutely wrong, mod is far away from old arty parties.

[crimax]

Yep, this is an old point in my mind and yes mod is far away from what you call "old arty parties" BUT something is still missing, no?

If you don't want to balance this problem by re-balance arty forces then, up to you the solutions and good luck

My Humble Opinion (after a bit of time away) it's balanced and lovely to play .... excluding arty parties problem .... lol

[MarKr]

Sukin is in general supporter of "arty unit to every doc" while at the same time he says that "inf doc arty is easily counterable by almost any axis doc"
On the other hand crimax says "yes, it is not arty party anymore but still everyone has arty and so Inf doc has no way to stand out with its own arty"
I want to give space for discussion but I am already curious how the debate between you two will turn out.

[JimQwilleran]

Inf doc is about spamming. Yes rangers can't beat storms or luft in 1vs1, but 4vs1? Inf doc is meant for people who value quantity over quality. I think it was done on purpose that there is no strong late game unit for this doc. Your biggest strength is the size of your army itself. If you keep enemy engaged all the time, inf doc becomes most annoying doc to fight against imo. Wherever you go you are outnumbered 1:3, that's crazy.

That's why I don't find inf doc weakest at all, there are players who actually do very well with it. It just requires a specific play-style.

Arty is not a case here btw. Arty is just an addition.

[Panzerblitz1]

On this one i feel the same as jim here, u.s. Infantry have in fact is a very strong infantry spam doc with great resources management ( i don't agree with sukin they are far from being weak) their mid game infantry squads got good overall equipment who can be annoying as hell as they keep coming back, even more, the rangers from the rangers truck are killers combine with u.s. Special forces, no axis infantry can hold them if well played, tanks are for sure not the best but they are cheap and can be produced also in great number, this doc have a good arty and anti tank capability and beware when the caliope is on field, one of the most annoying long barrage i know in bk... what about the 107mm braking ballz mortar and the resources points infantry fortification for more infantry spams? This doc is far from being weak, far from it and they are so damn cheap!

[Krieger Blitzer]

Infantry doctrine OP! Plz nerf NOW

[Panzerblitz1]

I mean if i could loose that amount of units in game and keep coming back with the same dudes but from the axis side i will be happy

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

the rangers from the rangers truck are killers combine with u.s. Special forces, no axis infantry can hold them if well played,

Huh, do we play the same mod? Those rangers hardly can beat volks with MG34, also they dont have any free weapon slots and they cant even pick up a weapon, in fact they are just simple rangers with a bit more HP and passive camo, arent they?

beware when the caliope is on field, one of the most annoying long barrage i know in bk...

Good morning, Calliope doesnt belong to Inf doc.

what about the 107mm braking ballz mortar and the resouces points infantry fortification for more infantry spams? This doc is far from being weak, far from it.

107mm is good, agree.

You all talk about insane infatry spam, but.... but...... without good micro and weapon equipment is nothing but vet. exp food for Axis units, and in order to be effective in late game you need to have 3 monitors, 6 hands and 3 couples of eyes. I mean, look at AB doc, still not so many people play it, though doctrine itself is great, just for the majority of the players its too micro heavy. It's the same problem why almost nobody uses E8's and 76mm shermans in Armor doc, yeah, you can build plenty of them, but without ability to control every single one of them they turn to an easy targets and enemy feeders.

I brought up this point because I too often see how average players get smashed when playing inf.

So, I compelely disagree with you guys, your only argument is "You can spam!", but raw numbers are nothing in BK, you can have 250 pop cap army as inf doc and get your ass kicked by a single panther or 3-4 Luft squads.

The point is - shift a bit from quanity to quality, I dont ask to change the doc drastically, just slight changes. Maybe rework ranger truck and infilitration rangers to make them strong and unique.

[JimQwilleran]

I mean, look at AB doc, still not so many people play it, though doctrine itself is great, just for the majority of the players its too micro heavy. It's the same problem why almost nobody uses E8's and 76mm shermans in Armor doc, yeah, you can build plenty of them, but without ability to control every single one of them they turn to an easy targets and enemy feeders.

I see AB is almost every game I play. The same with Armor. Actually if there are 2 US players, they gonna do AB-Armor combination almost each and every time. Also every 2nd time I see armor doc, I see E8 spam. Maybe they become less popular now with 90mm buff, but still I wouldn't say that almost nobody uses them.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I have to agree with Pzblitz and Nami, I honestly don't think inf doc is any weak at all. It has its own disadvantages.. but overall it's not the weakest whatsoever...
Red as inf doc would actually still eat me for breakfast most likely!

[idliketoplaybetter]

What i think, is that by making question like "weakest doc", we are making mistake.Since it is true, that all doc's has their own flaws/benefits.And to me, Infantry doc is obvisously the most powerfull for early game pushes(with offmap arty/infiltration units of all kind).If it works for early game, then in most of the cases, u scored.

However, spam, that Nami claims to be "good point of the doc", isnt good at all.
Most of the time, u get shitload of lategame useless rifles from Medical services.Most of the games, those ranger/CQS are no match even to Volks equiped with lmg, u simply feed CP's and Vet's for grens and can make no progress without arty.
Spam is spam, its never good in my eyes.There is something wrong about doc, not sure if its "lack of reliable late game units aka flavour" though.

(also, there is a sad tendency, like 90% of recent games i get opponents, of random skill, who are making 2snipers every time in every case..)

[Lionelus]

Hello everybody

I do agree with Sukin

My brother devilroach used to play a lot with Infantry doc.

Here are our opinions :
1) Spamming units
2) Artillery
3) AT capabilities
4) feeding issues

This is quite long, good reading.


1) Spamming units
Nice feature. Yet, totally useless on the common maps such as La Fiere or Road to Cherbourg. Narrow and small maps are a pain.
How can you take advantage of your numbers if you don't even have place to manoeuver, flank and spread your troops out ?

"1:3" as Nami said ; "raw numbers" as Sukin said. We all know how useless is that if your troups are massed in blopping formation, which is what happens all the time on the aforementionned map, because it is just too small and you can't spread your troops out. Late game, this number advantage is null, with all the high dps bursting artillery Axis got, especially on narrow map.

In my opinion, Infantry doc is a map control doctrine, with raiding capabilities : spamming infantry, riding trucks, capping fast and holding.
There also should be a intensive use of transport trucks and transport halftracks, what is rarely seen in game.
My brother performed well with trucks, dropping troops behind enemy lines, flanking tanks and troops. But only in 2v2 and on large map.

2) Artillery
It seems fine to me.

M12 gun motor carriage (155mm) could be implemented to add some punch late game, if a model is available

3) AT capabilities
this is the main issue. Even with improved bazooka rockets, Infantry doc is still dramatically vulnerables to panzers, especially when it's time to assault.

Infantry needs a mobile 90mm guns. It could be the M36 jackson. M10 does a good job, with special ammo, but adding M36 could be good.

Or add a feature so the AT guns can be towed by trucks (I saw this on some mod, don't remember which one).

4) Feeding issue
There is a feeding issue. After doctrinal price reduction of infantry, the EXP yielded should be proprotianally reduced too. Not sure it's doable, but It could solve the feeding issue


All in all, I would say US infantry doc is fine.
But :
- only in early games / mid games. Infantry doc doesn't have the tools to perform correctly late game
- only on larger map, where there full potential can be used (spamming and controling map)

I would add that infantry doc is the most difficult to play, as it is micro intensive : lots of troops to manage, trying to flank/outmanoeuver, placing artillery shots, building defenses and mines ...
Even spamming is a hard job, if there are Stracraft zerg player out there, you know what I mean : reinforcing, building new squad, anticipating loss to continue the fights

As for suggestions :
Artillery : M12 gun motor carriage (155mm)
AT : M36 Jackson, or towed guns with transport trucks/halftrack.
Feeding : reduce EXP yielded by infantry, once doctrinal price reduction is unlocked in command tree.

best regards,

Lionelus

[kwok]

I dunno, I like to carry my rifles to thenlate game. Double bars keep them relevant. The difference is though, they don't become assault troops any more but great defensive/support soldiers. It seems like everyone doesn't use the suppress ability... which I get it costs munitions and everyone says how cost ineffective it is... but once you start feeling the effect of it on the other side where wherever you go there is a rifleman suppressing your elite soldiers with a click of a button you start to get pissed.

By the late game with inf doc I'm using map control and positioning to overwhelm the enemy. I'm not assualting like I would AB doc, but more like cornering my enemy until they can't move and I can smash their base with mortars, satchels, and HE. At the late game inf is all about taking where the enemy isn't and letting them constantly run into your wall of bars and emplacements.

[XAHTEP39]

...
M12 gun motor carriage (155mm) could be implemented to add some punch late game, if a model is available
...
Artillery : M12 gun motor carriage (155mm)
...

155-mm M40 SPG ("Long Tom" strike , similar as M12 SPG "King Kong") is available for INF-doc as off-map artillery strike ("klick-to-kill" feature )

[Panzerblitz1]

beware when the caliope is on field, one of the most annoying long barrage i know in bk...

Good morning, Calliope doesnt belong to Inf doc.

Yes right! my mistake LOL.

Rangers & rangers truck are very good, they can't beat the volks with mg? well maybe we have a different game mate , all Rangers eat them alive, with of without mg, grenadiers as well.

[JimQwilleran]

Rangers are good infantry units, they can't beat the volks with mg? well maybe we have a different game mate, but Rangers eat them alive, with of without mg.

Actually it strongly depends on vet and weapons. Veted rangers might win vs volks with lmg, but raw rangers vs veted volks will fail miserably. From my experience raw rangers without lmg vs raw volks with lmg is also a win for volks.

[Panzerblitz1]

Well then compare whats comparable, non upgraded volks versus non upgraded rangers = dead volks, if you compare volks with lmg upgrade then compare it with lmg rangers as well... etc... etc... its a nonsense to compare upgraded units versus non upgraded ones.
Rangers will always beat volks and even grenadiers in some cases from the start.
Also do not compare latest rangers/special Forces troops with elite troops like gerbirgs/fallsh etc... its not the same purpose or the same strengh.
You will not have über units in u.s. infantry doctrine, good infantry yes, Über infantry nope.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Well then compare whats comparable

You see, investing early in rangers normally never ends well.And if we are "comparing" this, then just fact, that rangers cant handle normal fight against volks also proves how silly Rifles-Volks fights are, but only with difference of reinf-prices and initial cost (so yeah, at that point spam could work, but is it?).

I doubt making more additional uber units for allies would be solution lol.Its like if we all agreed, that Panther was OP, but instead of fixing it, we add extra OP super allie tank of any kind...

[Panzerblitz1]

Well then compare whats comparable

You see, investing early in rangers normally never ends well.And if we are "comparing" this, then just fact, that rangers cant handle normal fight against volks also proves how silly Rifles-Volks fights are

I still don't get it, Rangers are stronger with better equippments than volks or riflemens, how in the world they can't stand a chance in front of Volks? i really don't understand, i mean if your volks got MG's and at green cover, when your Rangers are "raw" without any upgrade and in open ground (red cover) for sure they will get rekt, i mean you don't even need to be a god pvp players to check stats of those units, its like 1+1=2, there is no doubt (except if there is some magic here) Rangers do eat alive volks if well played, thats all.

You guys needs to understand that we can't have cheap / quick / units prod with very strong units, it will be just unplayable, the u.s. doc got his own way to play, and is imho a big assets for a team when in pvp, if well played they own the field, and no i don't think u.s. inf. doc is weak at all, and yes it requires good micro, infantry doc isn't a steel punch breakthru doctrine, but ressembling more as a slow enemy death by strangulation.

[kwok]

I think what pblitz is trying to say is... gitgud. What I like most about bk is how it's NOT black and white at all. Rangers shouldn't be beating bills, volks shouldn't be beating rifles. Hell, I don't even think it's right to say luft should be beating rifles. If you wanted a game where something consistently beats something else and a game focused on build order... then go play Starcraft. Seriously every day balance suggestions sound more and more like Starcraft.

[drivebyhobo]

You guys needs to understand that we can't have cheap / quick / units prod with very strong units, it will be just unplayable

It's not that Infantry doctrine's mainline units are in desperate need of being stronger, it's that the support units are weak and inefficient. Infantry doctrine's support units heap more micromanagement onto the player instead of reducing it.

For example, BK doctrine's stormtrooper halftrack provides medical aid, creates 4 storm units and offers a degree of infantry support with its mounted MG. To achieve a similar effect, an infantry player has to create an ambulance and a call-in ranger truck.
Both of these supporting units suck hard.

The ambulance requires deployment making it an extremely vulnerable artillery target and has to undeploy to run away if threatened. Meanwhile the ranger truck is a soft skin truck that comes with a green ranger squad that is easy prey for Fallschirmjaegers.

It should be recognized micromanagement is an extremely valuable abstract resource on par with any of the concrete three that can very often make the difference between a win or loss. At the least make command/heal auras more generous for infantry doctrine.

[JimQwilleran]

I think what pblitz is trying to say is... gitgud. What I like most about bk is how it's NOT black and white at all. Rangers shouldn't be beating bills, volks shouldn't be beating rifles. Hell, I don't even think it's right to say luft should be beating rifles. If you wanted a game where something consistently beats something else and a game focused on build order... then go play Starcraft. Seriously every day balance suggestions sound more and more like Starcraft.

I like this point very much. That's what makes this mod special for me too.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Me too!
I would say enough balance discussions really... Balance is absolutely fine atm in my humble opinion.