LeiG 18 vs Pack 37

[Jalis]

If le ig cause a problem for arty capacities as pak 37 reward, but at the same time you would like to see it more often, perhaps can you free it by suppress pak 50 / le ig reward. It will making both available. It is just an other solution you can examine as an alternative. My two cents.

[Warhawks97]

The biggest problem here is that many didnt use the weapon coz the 50 mm seems (or is even) so important that they consider the 75 mm leig as bad or useless. Ive been using the weapon a few times (mostly when i knew my enemie is a inf player) and its pretty good. It has smaller fire arc but two ambushed shots. And the shots are way more deadly than those of the brits field gun. Coz of that i was against old changes of the brits field gun which quickly was considered OP just because it effectively killed inf. A weapon you could trust. Just the leig 18 was "normal" coz nobody used it really. But if you figured alternative gameplays without 50 mm AT gun you could use that weapon with great success.


So let players use the gun and i guess there will be many who are surprised of how effective it is. That weapon is highly effective, the 50 mm a almost must have or lets say "the saveguard" which is there when everything else failed (let alone the rocket shot with which ive killed idk how many jumbos and croccs and pershings that already cracked 75 mm paks before). Basically a fair trade i would say so far.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I agree with Kwok the only advandtage Field gun has is gun arc. Inf sees it => flank, leig18 can camo and barrage which means indirect fire with longer range and they have exactly the same price with Field Gun available later, keeping in mind WH already has standard 80mm mortars which can be quite effective as indirect fire as well. Making it a reward unit for 75mm pak and still having 75mmHT would simply have no tradeoff, making WH even more well rounded than it is now.

That was just a single suggestion out of 3 ones... Probably the 2nd suggestion (which is yours) could be the best solution, or maybe yet the same 3rd suggestion.. but while restricting the 75mm half-track to only 2 docs in return.

And the shots are way more deadly than those of the brits field gun.

But again; keep in mind that on the other hand, the range is so narrow compared to the RAF one...

[EstadoMayor]

Hello,

Well, the thing is the axis players normally don´t take the risk to use the LeiG 18 instead of the pack 38 because of shermans, stuarts, cromwells, etc (LeiG 18 is useless against them).

Then if some people consider it is a very early weapon, what about keep it available like now after the fisrt upgrade and the second building? it could be still a reward for the pack 36 but available later.

Guys, a MG42 is pretty good against inf and nobody wants to keep it hidden in the draw, but LeiG 18 is discriminated just because is good killing inf like MG42, if you are wise enough you will not face a machine gun with a rifle squad, why must you have to face a LeiG 18 with a rifle squad? you should be killed exactly the same with the MG and the Leig 18.

Mates, an sniper or a mortar is more than enough to disable the Leig 18, even a grenade disable it like and MG if you flank it. So why can I have very early MG42 to kill inf but I cannot have a "so early" LeiG 18, is the devil or what?? I remmember that people flank the MG even with the jeep because the MG kills the jeep as well, why not flanking the LeiG 18 as well as we do with the scout car with the allied ATs?? I don´t see more problems than the "early matter", which could be sorted it out as I told you, setting the availability up as now, but as a reward of the pack 36 and not as the pack 38.

[sgtToni95]

I think the reward unit combinations of Leig18+ 50mm Puma/Pak38 + "stubby"75mm Puma can provide both AT and anti inf capabilities without changing anything in the game. 50mm Puma is seen so rarelly as well, so maybe by adopting this combination you'd get 2 units seen more often instead of just one.

[kwok]

Estado, i think what makes this so much stronger than mg42 is its instant kill rather than suppress, plus it has longer range, barrage, and can kill light cars. You're right it's not hard to kill but I think it has more capability than almost every other t1 weapon.

I use sgt Toni's exact reward combination and I do okay which is why I'm fine with thing not changing. If it helps, maybe make the 50mm puma/car available t2 instead of t3? So it's like the at halftrack "equivalent" in availability.

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is just no point whatsoever that the LeiG.18 is replacing Pak38 anyhow... As I believe it shouldn't be a reward unit anymore but available only for Blitz doc, but it could be also a reward to either Pak40 or Pak36 on the other hand! Basically the same 3 suggestions.. simply this won't make it earlier available or whatever.

[EstadoMayor]

I don´t know why you talk about pumas and so on, and...If I combined sniper, MG42, LeiG 18, pack 36, pumas, piooners, volksgrens, grenadiers, mortars, bla bla bla?? dudes, you cannot have everything at the same time.

You talk about Leig 18 like a kind of a new brummbaer in the first 2 minutes game, I tried today again with 2 LeiGs 18 and they were killed just with infantry, it has a so narrow angle and it was killed while I turned the angle, one grenade and bye bye, couple of guys with BARs and bye bye. Useful against squads only after Vet 2-3 and against narrow or crowded groups, when they are opened it kills one or two the most of the times.

You may think this is the new sturmtiger, but no, I promise is just a light gun which could give to the axis another way to fight in the early game and a useful tool to have a chance against commandos, rangers, paratroopers, etc. Then you complain due to axis players always wait for heavy tanks, obvious, you don´t let us play, we can only do something with heavy tanks, may you pretend to win a game with a puma and a Pack 36? come on guys.

Even a 50 mm gun doesn´t stop a sherman sometimes, so we need the other guns as well and they are not available always due to the manpower, you talk about units like if it would be possible have all of them together, we have options and we choose, I can build 3 pumas 50 mm or one Stug IV and we don´t have to delete puma because we have the Stug IV. Please Tiger1996 stop saying to limit to one doctrine or whatever, for that just don´t touch it.

My point it´s more than fair because means we could have the LeiG 18 at the SAME time than NOW after second building, the only change should be a reward for Pack 36, that´s all, don´t break your minds, not other units need to be changed, this is not the SP, is not the sturmtiger, is not the Elephant, it´s just a little gun missused just because is not useful enough to be used, then this is not a "lethal and dangerous" weapon it´s not so powerful than you are talking about, if not everybody would use it.

[Paso95]

If it helps, maybe make the 50mm puma/car available t2 instead of t3? So it's like the at halftrack "equivalent" in availability.

I think that this idea could be the best one. If a wehr player chooses leIG 18 instead of pak 38, he has big trouble also against very early recces, and 50 mm and 75mm pumas come too late to counter them.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Please Tiger1996 stop saying to limit to one doctrine or whatever, for that just don´t touch it.

I am just trying to maintain the Pak36 after all. As I believe it's quite risky replacing it with this early AT gun... Or what are u going to do against the Dingo and the AB 50.cal Jeep then? You know, the LeiG would be only available later, in all docs.. that's true; but at the cost of not having an early AT gun anymore this way!

That's why I also take other suggestions into account.. such as the idea by sgtToni, which is to allow it only for Blitz doc, being a reward to nothing! This way in Blitz doc u will have Pak36, Pak38, Pak40 or 75mm HT as well as LeiG.18 too. But only in Blitz doc...

You see, even Brits are going to have AT rifle boys available earlier in the next patch.. as early as Sappers, without having to deploy the Lieutenant first! Although that AT rifle boys are able to capture points which is something Paks can't do... But overall, I think that having the Pak36 is an extremely important factor in early game.

But if you don't like restricting it only to Blitz doc.. then there is another option... How about replacing it with Pak40? Like kwok and Hawks suggested before; but then the Pak40 half-track would be no longer a reward unit obviously.. people might complain that this way there are no trade-offs, however; restricting the Pak40 half-track to only certain docs at this point, might then seem to be somewhat justified.

If it helps, maybe make the 50mm puma/car available t2 instead of t3? So it's like the at halftrack "equivalent" in availability.

I think that this idea could be the best one. If a wehr player chooses leIG 18 instead of pak 38, he has big trouble also against very early recces, and 50 mm and 75mm pumas come too late to counter them.

Not a bad idea.. could be definitely a solution, but in my opinion... The 2nd suggestion by sgtToni is probably the best one!

[sgtToni95]

Yeah I'm fine with Kwok's option as well. Estado, if this is not so lethal as you say, why do you insist so much? I've faced Leig18 few times, and if it's under camo and inf comes in its range it's really really painful, it kills like 4-5/6 squad members in one shot many times. You don't have to be so skilled to turn it properly where inf will come. Why isn't 50mm Puma at t2 not a good option for you?

[Krieger Blitzer]

Btw, I noticed that the arty barrage of the LeiG.18 is actually dealing really few damage.. at least when compared to the US 75mm howitzers from AB and inf docs on the other hand! It's almost absolutely insufficient...

[EstadoMayor]

Ok, if you want to set it up as a reward for the Pack 40 I am happy with that.

Sgt Tony it is not lethal, I explained to you thhe LeiG 18 has to be Vet 2-3 to kill more than 2 guys in and squad, obviously they need to be closed enough to be killed 4-5 members, it doesn´t work like that in open formations whre you may killed 1 or 2.

I insist Sgt Tony because is a good gun and I would like to have it in the game, the same like the volksgrenadiers or the transport truck and both are not lethal either, specially the transport truck.

Tiger1996 the arty barrage of LeiG 18 compare to the american airborned gun is very soft, that is true.

[idliketoplaybetter]

LeiG 18 has to be Vet 2-3 to kill more than 2 guys in and squad

Hmm, wouldnt say so, as any HE loaded weapon in a mod, it is fully random in terms of damage, at preety much any distance.


"the arty barrage of LeiG 18 compare to the american airborned gun is very soft" - on the other hand, Leig can camo+ cheaper+ available earlier(and u ask for it to be even MORE earlier unit).

In my opinion, this is preety much the same question, as was with AAquad emplacement's, i dont see much use of this units in my games, just because there are less players who are that SOLID and skilled to hold/stall/keep/pause game as Estado for example.
So im not sure, if any trades Leig/ATgun will change it much.

[Krieger Blitzer]

"the arty barrage of LeiG 18 compare to the american airborned gun is very soft" - on the other hand, Leig can camo+ cheaper+ available earlier(and u ask for it to be even MORE earlier unit).

No one here is asking to make it earlier available... And the RAF gun is as much deadly in fact.. and has significantly wider range,
LeiG.18 is also limited to only 2 at a time.

If both are 75mm howitzers, then I believe there is absolutely no reason that could ever justify for either any of them to be deadlier than the other in terms of the barrage strength. It's definitely weird that the US version is hitting way harder somehow!

[idliketoplaybetter]

Is Leig18 doctrinal unit?What price is it compare to RafATg and 75artyUS?By timing and price, id rather compare it to MTHT's and simple Mortar 81.

Wider range/Camo.It has its own benefits.It has more from mortier, then from howitzer in a mod apparently.If it will hit, as much, as 75mmUS arty...i can imagine what kind of early-mid game we will have DD

[Krieger Blitzer]

Is Leig18 doctrinal unit?

A reward unit.

What price is it compare to RafATg and 75artyUS?

Pretty much the same price.

Wider range/Camo.It has its own benefits.

True.

But here on this topic they are discussing a very simple thing... Estado is just saying that the LeiG.18 is replacing the wrong unit! Which is the Pak38. While the suggestions are requesting that it should be a reward to something else, or to be no longer a reward unit at all but restricted to only 1 doc in return.. that's the whole thing

[idliketoplaybetter]

I see what kind of discussion it was.Very specific one.As is this unit itself(and AAquad mentioned by me before, just cause this talk is very close to that one imo).
Leig18 is a great mix of pak38 and mortar, i see what was the intention behind making it the way it is now.You simply have to decide/predict, WILL ur opponent rely on Infantry mostly, or go fast Motorpool.This unit also demands some specific way of playing, stall, calm and campy, that's why most of players prefer to go for Puma/81mortar/MTHT supported WITH pak38/50/75.

Preety much the same price?Reward is preety much the same as Doctrinal at this context maybe?:D

I personally have nothing against the idea, of making some units more "obvious" for players to use...but again, most players just blinded by some more "obvious/better/easier" stuff to play with(and no blame here at all).But again, imo its just wrong unit/concept confrontation here, leig is not like arty75/rafatg.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I see what kind of discussion it was.Very specific one.As is this unit itself(and AAquad mentioned by me before, just cause this talk is very close to that one imo).

I believe there is nothing in common... They are totally 2 different topics I think.. I can honestly see no relations whatsoever or anything that would link between.

Leig18 is a great mix of pak38 and mortar, i see what was the intention behind making it the way it is now.You simply have to decide/predict, WILL ur opponent rely on Infantry mostly, or go fast Motorpool.This unit also demands some specific way of playing, stall, calm and campy, that's why most of players prefer to go for Puma/81mortar/MTHT supported WITH pak38/50/75.

Pak38 = 50mm AT gun... Which is an essential unit throughout the majority of the games.. therefore we can see some suggestions that are requesting the LeiG.18 to be a reward for anything else, such as the Pak40 or the Pak36 on the other hand. While maintaining the exact same current availability time though.. as it won't be earlier available or anything; or to be no longer a reward unit but restricted only to Blitz doc most likely...

Preety much the same price?Reward is preety much the same as Doctrinal at this context maybe?:D

"Price" refers to the unit cost, no? They pretty much cost the same. Each with its own benefits! But to answer your questions, then yes.. being a reward unit is not better than to be doctrinal anyhow.. specifically when the replacement makes little sense. Or no sense at all to be honest... As I totally agree that replacing the Pak38 is completely off. So, it would be really cool to see the LeiG.18 replacing another unit! just that.

I personally have nothing against the idea, of making some units more "obvious" for players to use...but again, most players just blinded by some more "obvious/better/easier" stuff to play with(and no blame here at all).But again, imo its just wrong unit/concept confrontation here, leig is not like arty75/rafatg.

And btw that's why I disguise those who say "Plz don't touch the LeiG, because the RAF gun is not better!" as I believe that those who firstly started such a false confrontation here, actually were not the ones who are requesting changes to the LeiG.
Moreover, this topic is not about comparing the 2 units in the first place! As there is definitely no room of a comparison... However; just for the sake of realism aspect.. guess I then had to question regarding the barrage strength of the LeiG.18 when compared to another barrage of a similar unit with the same caliber.

[sgtToni95]

I think Field Gun and Leig18 could be compared in some ways, they have same caliber, they more or less deal the same damage (i think camo ability allows Leig to hit twice, Field gun is just there in front of you and you can turn around) , they cost exactly the same. Field gun is available later tho and you need to call in vehicles glider, which has a price, to make the gun available but nobody is complaining about it being so rare in pvp or available too late. Why isn't the combination of 50mm Puma+Leig18 (both reward units which you can have at the same time) a good way to see theese units more often? It's been suggested to move Puma down 1 tier so it would be a valid counter to recce as Pak38 is.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Why isn't the combination of 50mm Puma+Leig18 (both reward units which you can have at the same time) a good way to see theese units more often? It's been suggested to move Puma down 1 tier so it would be a valid counter to recce as Pak38 is.

I already said that I am also fine with this solution

[EstadoMayor]

You will see the puma 50 mm if you have fuel enough saved or allocated in the map, if not you will use ground guns (camo, cheaper, safer against AT boys, safer agaisnt other ATs) Puma is nice I agree, but it´s T3 and if you are suffering with the fuel you save it to build stug IV wich is nicer than puma.

But again I recommend all of you to try the LeiG 18, you will see how weak it is against light damage, sometimes broken just with one bazooka shoot, the RAF field gun you need 2 or 3 shoots from a medium-high tank to destroy it and the crew is pure butter in the Leig 18 compare to the RAF one, for example. With this I am not talking about improving the Leig or nerfing the RAF field gun, NO, I am talking about it´s not a drama fight against a leig 18, btw useles in the late games when the action is so fast, arty is everywhere and the LeiG cannot resist a closed mortar round alive.