Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Do you have a balancing problem or do you want to make a suggestion for the game? You are at the right place.
User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Feb 2016, 18:48

Hello everyone, I would like to bring up the topic regarding Tank Hunters again, everybody more or less agree that doc really lacks offensive power. How about adding pz4 mass production to this doc ( instead of AP shells unlock, or other useless thing, Nashorn or whatever )?

I know that tank is quite powerfull, epecially with zimmerit, but in late game when allies have 17 pounders behind every corner, and spam from Armor doc it's really overprice to pay 550 MP and 80 Fuel for each tank. In this case TH will turn into a doc which succesfully uses medium tanks even in late game (would be the only doc actually), because BK actually stops pz4 production as soon as they get Tiger\Panther unlock. Moreover, it is an only battle tank TH has. With mass prod it would be kinda like sandbagged E8 in its role, medium damager which soaks handled AT weapons damage very well.

Price after unlock should be 450 MP and 55 Fuel.

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby JimQwilleran » 19 Feb 2016, 19:03

I wonder what other people think about that. :D

User avatar
Tiger1996
Posts: 3796
Joined: 06 Dec 2014, 15:53
Location: I'm from Egypt, but I live in Qatar.
Contact:

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Tiger1996 » 19 Feb 2016, 19:50

I don't think it's a good idea...

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby JimQwilleran » 19 Feb 2016, 20:39

But why? No one plays TH because it's just standard PE without arty or uber luft inf. Even if things like Jagdpanther or Jagdtiger bounce almost any shot, they are easy targets for arty or masses of inf.

Wake
Posts: 304
Joined: 07 Dec 2014, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Wake » 19 Feb 2016, 20:47

What I do is use the Panzer IV Ausf. J. It's the exact same as the Ausf. H, except that it comes without skirts and has a slower turret rotation. But for this you get a price from the H (580/80) to the J (550/60). On maps with a high fuel income, this Panzer IV is spammable enough already, and USA is hopeless against them until they get their 90mm guns. Because the 76mm AT gun doesn't reliably penetrate the Panzer IV H/J, and its MGs are so good vs infantry that it's usually not a good idea to use bazookas against them. Normal bazookas usually bounce off when zimmerit is applied.

It's true that the 17 pounder still destroys the H and J all the time, usually 1-shotting them if it is camouflaged, but I don't think mass production would be fair. It's not equivalent to the Sherman Easy Eight because the H and J are much better vs infantry.

I think the Panzer IV H and J are too good to have this reduced price, combined with vet 1 tank crews and zimmerit.

But then again, after mass production in Blitzkrieg doc, the prices for the H go from 550/80 to 450/55, and the J is 410/45.
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Feb 2016, 21:06

Wake wrote:and USA is hopeless against them until they get their 90mm guns. Because the 76mm AT gun doesn't reliably penetrate the Panzer IV H/J

This is outdated information, 76mm got reworked and now they penetrate panzers quite well. Upgraded zooka never bounces off panzer 4 as far as I remember.

But I got your point, I have to add that this unlock should be pure late game benefit, not after 4 CP available like for BK, 7-8 I would say ( + zimmerit and vet in another sub trees, so to get this fully packed cheap panzers with zimmerit and vet you will have to unlock almost the entire doc tree )

And PZ 4 J... I dont like it cause Hellcat or Wolverine can just circle it since turret rotation is painfully slow, also 50 ammo is quite high price for skirts, Id better invest them into inf weapons or Hotchkiss barrage.

Wake
Posts: 304
Joined: 07 Dec 2014, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Wake » 19 Feb 2016, 21:21

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:This is outdated information, 76mm got reworked and now they penetrate panzers quite well. Upgraded zooka never bounces off panzer 4 as far as I remember.

But I got your point, I have to add that this unlock should be pure late game benefit, not after 4 CP available like for BK, 7-8 I would say ( + zimmerit and vet in another sub trees, so to get this fully packed cheap panzers with zimmerit and vet you will have to unlock almost the entire doc tree )


Ok, I like this idea now. I support it.

Where should we place the unlock? Here is a picture of the command tree. Each tree must have a total of 30 CP points.

I also have a question with the command tree. On the bottom right, the ability that "unlocks extra abilities for tank hunter squads", all it seems to do is give tank busters the HHL 3 anti-tank mine. That's all I can notice. Does it do anything else?

Image
Image

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Feb 2016, 21:28

I would do it in this way: Put it on a place of Periscope coming after JP unlock, will require 2 CP, Periscop goes on a place of AP shells which shall be kicked out completely. So mass prod will reqire 9 cp + 4 for zimmerit + 3 for vet.

Extra abilities for TH squads also give them vet. 1 + panzerfaust turns into Panzerfaust 100 ( much better range ).
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 19 Feb 2016, 21:37, edited 1 time in total.

Kasbah
Posts: 251
Joined: 08 Dec 2014, 12:34

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Kasbah » 19 Feb 2016, 21:36

Good plan although I already proposed this idea and there was no success. I hope you will be able to carry it on... Let's see the devs, as always

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3152
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Feb 2016, 21:49

so, we get two axis doc that can spam out Tank IV´s and one also TH´s? Also TH doc is the only doc that has two vet upgrades (AT squad, tanks) which doesnt exist second time in BK.

So it gets two mass production upgrades (+ free gunsights etc), two vet upgrades and then res trade+ zimmerit?

Nonstop Tank IV J spam for 410/45 ammo with vets and zimmerit??


Besides that 76 got buffed yes, from 39% pen to 49% pen vs these tank IV types.


And idk if TH is "so helpless" vs masses of inf. Grens with G43 for ranged fight, SS squad for ranged fight with lmgs and assault grens stop basically everything. And its not that inf doc spams both, inf and tanks. If you face inf spammer docs you can beat them with your powerfull inf. A single Th is enough to kill everything a inf doc would bring up. And if you face Tank doc you have no probs at all. And if you face emplacments you afterall get good hotchkiss to counter them. And if you play vs masses of inf, airplanes, arty, emplacments and armor.... well you should expect to get in trouble because you are just fighting against 3 or 4 opponents at the same time.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Feb 2016, 22:01

Kasbah wrote:I already proposed for this idea and there was no success. I hope there will be now but I doubt it... Let's see the devs, as always

Well, we have to somehow manage to make TH doc more appealing, currently there is no point in picking this doc because as Jim said, it is a just normal PE with some Tank Busters, it doesnt have cool abilities or cool ass special units and since all axis docs can handle allied armor by their own doc makes little sense. With my idea it will at least be able to fight well in late game using masses of decent pz's, not just camping with tankbusters.

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby JimQwilleran » 19 Feb 2016, 22:04

Both of you have good points here. While it's true TH needs something new, fresh, some buff... Buffed, veted Panzer IV every 2 min is a bit op...

Now this is a nice discussion here :D. What devs think about it?

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 19 Feb 2016, 22:27

Warhawks97 wrote:
And idk if TH is "so helpless" vs masses of inf. Grens with G43 for ranged fight, SS squad for ranged fight with lmgs and assault grens stop basically everything. And its not that inf doc spams both, inf and tanks. If you face inf spammer docs you can beat them with your powerfull inf. A single Th is enough to kill everything a inf doc would bring up. And if you face Tank doc you have no probs at all. And if you face emplacments you afterall get good hotchkiss to counter them. And if you play vs masses of inf, airplanes, arty, emplacments and armor.... well you should expect to get in trouble because you are just fighting against 3 or 4 opponents at the same time.


If all what you say were truth, TH wouldnt be played so seldomly, I see it once in 100 games.

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3152
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Feb 2016, 22:40

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:
And idk if TH is "so helpless" vs masses of inf. Grens with G43 for ranged fight, SS squad for ranged fight with lmgs and assault grens stop basically everything. And its not that inf doc spams both, inf and tanks. If you face inf spammer docs you can beat them with your powerfull inf. A single Th is enough to kill everything a inf doc would bring up. And if you face Tank doc you have no probs at all. And if you face emplacments you afterall get good hotchkiss to counter them. And if you play vs masses of inf, airplanes, arty, emplacments and armor.... well you should expect to get in trouble because you are just fighting against 3 or 4 opponents at the same time.


If all what you say were truth, TH wouldnt be played so seldomly, I see it once in 100 games.



its far less seldomly as you might belive. Sure, terror is number 1 doc afterall followed by SE/BK but still.

But idk if it is mainly TH docs fault. I afterall vote for PE rework in general with just slight changes on docs. For TH offense we would win already a lot if jagdpanther and maybe even nashorn would have 70 basic range, 75 from stat and 80 range from ambush which would then be just one.

So you would be able to put two long range anti tank units covering your inf line.

Thats what i would test first before we start the "Terror way": One unit for everything (Either IV J spam or Panther G´s). That would also eliminate all reasons to choose any of the axis docs coz all gonna have strong standard inf, strong standard arty and strong standard tanks. Where´s the point then in just choosing any of the docs?

User avatar
MarKr
Team Member
Posts: 2537
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 19:17
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby MarKr » 19 Feb 2016, 23:14

If all what you say were truth, TH wouldnt be played so seldomly, I see it once in 100 games.
Isn't it more the case that TH simply requires more skill to play? Most of other Axis docs have kind of "one unit army" so you just support it with very few units and you're good. TH doc requires more unit combinations so in general it is harder to play and that's why players preffer other doctrines. Could that be the case?

Anyway, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand if the PIVs mass production came late enough Allies will have stuff to take them down but with the resource trade and lower prices the spam capabilities could be crazy.
Image

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3152
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 Feb 2016, 23:54

MarKr wrote:
If all what you say were truth, TH wouldnt be played so seldomly, I see it once in 100 games.
Isn't it more the case that TH simply requires more skill to play? Most of other Axis docs have kind of "one unit army" so you just support it with very few units and you're good. TH doc requires more unit combinations so in general it is harder to play and that's why players preffer other doctrines. Could that be the case?

Anyway, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand if the PIVs mass production came late enough Allies will have stuff to take them down but with the resource trade and lower prices the spam capabilities could be crazy.


thing is, even if allied would have stuff later to counter them, the stream might be endless. Th would do nothing else than rushing Tank IV´s cheaper as every allied tank except 76 shermans from armor doc and "activating" traps (jacks, 17 pdr) which are actually supposed to stop Panthers which then do just follow up.


So Tank IV spam would afterall work as a kind "trap shield" covering panthers and tigers from others. And need for inf would be obsolete. Panther G from terror with huge sight backed by stuka. tank IV J spam rushing allied lines causing also huge trouble. Where would be even the need then to use any inf at all? or docs or whatever.


We would just reduce the ammount of used units further: Stuka/hotchkiss, Tank IV J/Panther G.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 20 Feb 2016, 02:05

Lolz Hawks, this is a tremendous exegaration, this catastrophic scenario won't happen. Right now nobody ''building nothing else than pz4" it's just a better price for a late game

User avatar
Warhawks97
Posts: 3152
Joined: 23 Nov 2014, 21:45
Location: Germany

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 Feb 2016, 02:33

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Lolz Hawks, this is a tremendous exegaration, this catastrophic scenario won't happen. Right now nobody ''building nothing else than pz4" it's just a better price for a late game


better price for late game= they will be there. And not just one. And if you can remember a few games we played with Terror/BK doc i actually did nothing else than rushing tank IV after tank Iv into enemies. Stuka and later panther made the rest.

Ive also seen that by some other players already. IIrc MG42 slo did it but not sure though. I firstly thought he gotta fail that he only spams tank IV J with vet, commander and zimmerit but when i got my Panther A it basically worked out extremly well.


When there are two docs able to spam Tank IV ´s (the J in terms of fuek even cheaper as Armor doc shermans) they right away can outspam any allied armored force or at least compete with those. And in addition to that sooner or later axis getting any sort of heavy armored tank with fat gun, any axis player will get one or more for sure sooner or later.

Wake
Posts: 304
Joined: 07 Dec 2014, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Wake » 20 Feb 2016, 03:47

I agree with Warhawks in that it might be OP but I am just wondering, Blitz doc can spam Panzer IV Js for 410 MP and 45 fuel (compare a Sherman, which costs 400/40) after only 3 CP. If it's not such a big problem there, then would it also not be a problem in TH after 9 CP, then 4 for zimmerit and 3 for vet?
Image

Kasbah
Posts: 251
Joined: 08 Dec 2014, 12:34

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Kasbah » 20 Feb 2016, 09:30

I wouldn't mind things to remain the same if the tank hunters mg's worked a little bit. I will say one more time how I often experienced, playing with mates, how basic enemy infantry can stand 30 seconds in front of a tank hunter and loose one member of the squad top.

If we could make the mg's work (and I mean work, not shredding) it would be nice. Otherwise it's obvious that PZ IV needs something else. Because now you basically have to pay one building just to create a tank that costs 580/80 (and Berge, right, but it's so clumsy that I prefer to rely on infantry to repair) whereas, as wake said, Blitz can spam them for much less and earlier. Maybe not the same price as Blitz but something in between to compensate the zimmerit.

Another solution would be to give to this doc some decent anti infantry tank: Ostwind, Wiberlwind... Although AT squads can easily run into an open field without cover and frontally blow them

Anyway, it's a good point that Hotchkiss precision will be fixed.

Last but not least, is it normal that 76 can take out quite easily Jagdpanzers IV? I've seen it's often about which one shoots first

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby JimQwilleran » 20 Feb 2016, 13:00

Kasbah wrote:I wouldn't mind things to remain the same if the tank hunters mg's worked a little bit. I will say one more time how I often experienced, playing with mates, how basic enemy infantry can stand 30 seconds in front of a tank hunter and loose one member of the squad top.

If we could make the mg's work (and I mean work, not shredding) it would be nice.
I am against it. If we buff all hull mg's, game will become unbearable for infantry. Also there will be no sense in building tanks when unpenetrable Jagdpanther get's good mg.

Kasbah wrote:Another solution would be to give to this doc some decent anti infantry tank: Ostwind, Wiberlwind... Although AT squads can easily run into an open field without cover and frontally blow them
Maybe you use it in a wrong way :D. Ostwind is actually the most useful antyinf weapon in the game imo.

Kasbah wrote:Last but not least, is it normal that 76 can take out quite easily Jagdpanzers IV? I've seen it's often about which one shoots first


Haha, in one of my last games I saw 76mm killing King Tiger with 2 first shots with AP xD. Things happen :D.

User avatar
Sukin-kot (SVT)
Posts: 856
Joined: 09 Dec 2014, 08:36
Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 20 Feb 2016, 14:20

MarKr wrote:
If all what you say were truth, TH wouldnt be played so seldomly, I see it once in 100 games.
Isn't it more the case that TH simply requires more skill to play? Most of other Axis docs have kind of "one unit army" so you just support it with very few units and you're good. TH doc requires more unit combinations so in general it is harder to play and that's why players preffer other doctrines. Could that be the case?


Its not the case really, TH is just lacks any creativity, you only can produce boring tankbusters and the entire command tree aimed at this. Fact is that the only thing which TH can do better than other docs is - destroying tanks, but all other axis docs are already good enough in it, thats why TH is kinda obsolete, also its very slow and doesnt have any good early-mid game instruments, Jim perfectly pointed out that it feels like you play just non-doc PE with a few additionlal units. Simply there is no place in axis style for this doc, BK and Terror have good tanks which can handle allied armor + good abilities + infantry shreders, Def, Luft, SE they all can provide good anti-tank defence.

MarKr wrote:
Anyway, I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand if the PIVs mass production came late enough Allies will have stuff to take them down but with the resource trade and lower prices the spam capabilities could be crazy.


I don't share this panic, especially hawks apocaliptic stories, BK currently can spam panzers right after 4 CP and there is nothing wrong with it, but for TH which is basically much worse doc than BK cheap panzers after 9 CP suddenly will be OP. ( keep in mind that TH also have to build 550 MP and 60 Fuel tank factory specially for producing this Panzers ).

This doc definatelly must become more appealing, if you guys dont like my ideas, propose something else, it's absolutelly clear for everybody that TH is the least played axis doc and there are reasons for this.

Maybe you can use some easy marketing tricks for making this doc more attractive for players, like move KT from terror to TH, that will change nothing in balance but some people will play TH just because they like KT.

User avatar
Terence's Mouth
Posts: 133
Joined: 07 Aug 2015, 18:10

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Terence's Mouth » 20 Feb 2016, 15:12

I like this idea, TH at moment is realy slow in fighting and building units.
I think it would give TH doc his backbone back which is realy important.
TH is played realy defensive at the moment, to defensive in my opinion.

If you add this idea you realy have to change the turret MG42 of the PZIV or of all axis tanks because its realy to OP(one burst kills a ranger squad most times, if build 3 PZIV no infantry would have chance to kill them so it would be to unreal)

Kasbah
Posts: 251
Joined: 08 Dec 2014, 12:34

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby Kasbah » 20 Feb 2016, 19:39

JimQwilleran wrote: I am against it. If we buff all hull mg's, game will become unbearable for infantry. Also there will be no sense in building tanks when unpenetrable Jagdpanther get's good mg.


There is something between having MG's in tank hunter that do strictly nothing, even when you PAY 35 ammo, and enemy squads can stand half a minute without losses while they have all the time to throw grenades, flames and bazookas, and shredding any infantry that comes close

JimQwilleran wrote: Maybe you use it in a wrong way :D. Ostwind is actually the most useful anty inf weapon in the game imo.


Well I don't know which wrong way is to have it vet 1 Wiberlwind and see how an AT squads comes running frontally and destroys its before retreating with 2 guys left. Things like that don't happen with American Quad (nice it's being nerfed)

JimQwilleran wrote:Haha, in one of my last games I saw 76mm killing King Tiger with 2 first shots with AP xD. Things happen :D.


Well, things like that should not happen don't you think so?


Terence's Mouth wrote:I like this idea, TH at moment is realy slow in fighting and building units.
I think it would give TH doc his backbone back which is realy important.
TH is played realy defensive at the moment, to defensive in my opinion.


Same, I don't see many people chooosing it and when I see, they rely on Wher for the offensive with tank hunters behind

JimQwilleran
Posts: 1107
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 15:05

Re: Panzer 4 mass production for PE

Postby JimQwilleran » 20 Feb 2016, 20:14

Kasbah wrote:Well I don't know which wrong way is to have it vet 1 Wiberlwind and see how an AT squads comes running frontally and destroys its before retreating with 2 guys left. Things like that don't happen with American Quad (nice it's being nerfed)

Firstly wiberlwind is shit, I was talking about Ostwind. Secondly of course it happens with american Quad, it always dies to shrecks. And what... is it going to get nerfed? How do you know that?

Kasbah wrote:Well, things like that should not happen don't you think so?


Oh yeah? Should Panzer IV ever bounce a bazooka rocket then? Or should Tiger bounce 90mm gun? There are many unrealistic things in this game.


Return to “Balancing & Suggestions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest