Terror doctrine

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Butterkeks
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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Butterkeks » 28 Jan 2016, 07:51

Warhawks97 wrote:Well, the gunisghts would be adjusted. So Panther G would greatly lose sight while others would get more but gunsight would keep worth the cost for sure. Also that crazy accuracy buff wouldnt exist anymore and instead a more "balanced" one.

@Sukin: If you get scared now all Panthers would simply be "same" when doing such gunsight adjustments i just can say: The reality offers enough differences between these three versions ;) (Panther D is fastest, A as it seems best armor, G cheapest but not worse than A actually)

Also keep in mind that Grens would have less HP, nerfed rifle stats and STG´s first after 4 CP´s. Also the Panther G wouldnt be able to retreat back behind a wall of grens that shred all tanks with schrecks. Means you can steamrole them then easier with tanks. So even a standard inf doc sherman would force the player to get more different units that just grens.

Why would players would then choose dif docs?

If Pure gren spam with STG/schreck wouldnt be so easy when choosing tripple doc due to less AT power more would go for BK doc to have Tank IV as anti tank power. MP would be necessarily invested into Stugs as offensive (and defensive AT).

People would go Def doc to have grens with schrecks and so on.


Well I see your point. Maybe it's worth a shot before we suggest any ideas that would result in a total makeover for Terror doc as this won't happen for sure^^

Warhawks97 wrote:Also where do you use rangers with one zook vs Puma. I mean go inf and you would have zooks afterall. But generally i barely see 1 ranger squad as ultimate and only way to counter puma. I am getting additional AT guns, greyhound etc. I am usually going for motorpool first anyway so that i get 57 mm HT, greyhound, AT squad etc.
So i doubt that impact would be too large.


Ranger with zooka is always my first anti tank inf. IF they hit, they can kill a puma with one shot, while still being able to defend themselves vs enemy inf.
As we all know, zooka fails to hit in around 90% of shots. So here you'd need just as much of them as possible.
I see the point in not giving Rangers a Bazooka anymore, I'm just wondering if it's a good idea (for balance/diversity reasons).

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Warhawks97
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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Jan 2016, 13:38

Butterkeks wrote:
Well I see your point. Maybe it's worth a shot before we suggest any ideas that would result in a total makeover for Terror doc as this won't happen for sure^^


That means what now?:D


Butterkeks wrote:Ranger with zooka is always my first anti tank inf. IF they hit, they can kill a puma with one shot, while still being able to defend themselves vs enemy inf.
As we all know, zooka fails to hit in around 90% of shots. So here you'd need just as much of them as possible.
I see the point in not giving Rangers a Bazooka anymore, I'm just wondering if it's a good idea (for balance/diversity reasons).


Alright. As i said inf would keep the zook on them just like the Def grens keep schreck. As armor doc i am usually going for greyhound and 57 mm AT anyway as i can use them also to cap points in that doc.

Also i still have the hope that stuart become really a way cheaper (300 MP for the US as standard cost). They would be afterall too slow to chase axis sdkfz 234 but would at least provide cover for your inf exactly against the 234 threat. Thats what i hope the stuart could finally become after cost drop. A light tank that covers your inf in a certain radius against quickly striking 20 mm vehicles. The paks are too easily overruned (even by those sometimes) and greyhound loses more often than not against them.

But i dont wanna derail this topic. Maybe we start a "new" discussion about grens/rangers.

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Butterkeks
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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Butterkeks » 28 Jan 2016, 14:12

Warhawks97 wrote: Butterkeks wrote:

Well I see your point. Maybe it's worth a shot before we suggest any ideas that would result in a total makeover for Terror doc as this won't happen for sure^^



That means what now?:D


Instead of removing Panther G and KT from Terror and put it back to TH just adjust gun sights + PGrens.
The removal won't happen for sure so I'd suggest a testing of these ideas ;)

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Tor » 28 Jan 2016, 16:04

Haha, terror doc last good axis doc, devs kill blitzkrieg doc, def doc specific, and all TH specific and sometimes you have 0 chanse for win, because you dont have something.
If you nerf terror doc, 50% axis players stop play.
How you can win vs enemy who can much more ManPower, low cost and good effective units like USA??
No chanse for go to the flank, or something like this, because USA everywhere in map.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Jan 2016, 16:16

Tor wrote:Haha, terror doc last good axis doc, devs kill blitzkrieg doc, def doc specific, and all TH specific and sometimes you have 0 chanse for win, because you dont have something.
If you nerf terror doc, 50% axis players stop play.
How you can win vs enemy who can much more ManPower, low cost and good effective units like USA??
No chanse for go to the flank, or something like this, because USA everywhere in map.



"Low cost". Its what we talk about. The Grens are cheaper than most allied elites (or all) though matching easily with those.
Axis have also powerfull defensives which makes it incredible hard sometimes to get through as allied if they havent choosed RA doc.

Also the discussion about tweaking Luft doc isnt closed yet. Besides i think it wouldnt be bad if at least some kind of teamplay is also required from axis side. Atm it seems that the expectations are like "every axis doc must be so well rounded that each can compete with every single allied doc in their specialised area".

But that there are lots of games where the entire axis team just runs for terror doc clearly shows that there is something broken. SE and Terror seems to be the standard. 2-3 terror and one SE. And those can compete in every aspect -inf, elite inf, armor, arty- with a mix of specialised allied doctrine combos.

And def doc isnt bad lmao. It sometimes takes hours to get through that powerfull defenses thus providing enough time for mates to get late armor. And during the attack the doc can provide decent arty support or stormarty support (stupa) in combo with Panthers.

And "effective units". The best cost efficency atm have grens, storms and Panthers. And CW is everything but cheap, actually even more expensive and far less multirole units.


Also what to flank? You just run straight through in late game. If anyone has to flank then its allied. And thats often not really possible due to ammount of schrecks that cover the tanks against flanking.

The SP is the only thing that enables allied to play like axis to a certain extent (going straight for head on attacks).

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Butterkeks » 28 Jan 2016, 16:26

Lol.

Well Tor, you are right.
How is it possible to win? I mean the Panther G that can see half of map and is nearly unkillable has no chance against bazookas that hit the ground in 90% of shots :/
And don't forget the allied MGs!!

I recently had a game in which my PGrens REALLY jumped on the ground when it began shooting!!! We all know that german super mutant soldiers could walk through bullet rain, so why the fuck is it possible to pin axis inf?!!!! I mean it happens in just around 10% of cases, but still!!!!eleven!!!!
But you are lucky, I didn't loose a single man, otherwise I would have burned down Markrs house (sorry Markr).

And stuka!!! I pay 115 ammo per salvo and I need TWO of it to kill the SP?!!! I should need a single rocket!!

I also don't see how it should be possible to win :/
Maybe I should stop wasting my PGrens by simply rushing into three or four allied Ranger squads? Of course the germans should be victorius here, but in this game they aren't :/
Or maybe I could not drive my KT in 2 17pdrs? But I paid so much for it, therefore it must be invincible actually?
Sometimes I'm even thinking of not shooting with stuka on anything that moves, but save it's shots for targets that are more worth. But we all know that germany hat the most and ebst arty in the whole world war, don't we? :/
Maybe I should ambush allies heavies and not do these silly frontal rushes with two at teams when there are two inf squads around protecting it. But Panzerschreck could even take out entire cities. or am i mistaken here?

Maybe, just maybe, if that could work for me Tor, maybe it could also work for you? :)


(So much for Sarcasm)

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Tor » 28 Jan 2016, 17:08

I play today usa more than axis, i dont have problem vs axis.
Panther g? build helcats or pershing, pershing witout car better than panther G, with...
KT? lol, joke tank, dies himself, 240 mp squads rush, or long tom, or RAF strike, or priest.
Helcats, and 75mm sherman in tank doc, have better cost effective ratio than panther G.
How many squads have terror doc in 30 min game? and 70 min game? answer the same, 3-4 grens + stuka + panther G+ 1 mortar and 1 mg.
How many squad have tank doc in 30 min and 70 min game? 75mm sherman, 1 helcat, 1 pershing, 1-2 ranger squads, later lol, try kill 2-3 pershing and SP, 1-2 helcats, 5-10 shermans, with 3 rangers squads + snipers, mg, mortar cars.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 28 Jan 2016, 17:41

Warhawks97 wrote:
But that there are lots of games where the entire axis team just runs for terror doc clearly shows that there is something broken. SE and Terror seems to be the standard. 2-3 terror and one SE.


That's not true at all, multiple terror happens sometimes, personally I have seen it twice. But "lots of games", "2-3 terror seems standart" wtf, whom are you trying to fool?

And Tor is right about amount of units comparision, axis are always outnumbered (by USA right from the start, by CW in late game). USA is simply crazy in late game, as proof, look at my old replays (most of them even before americans got supply yard and tank doc buffs). CW is not that expensive at all as you claim, with RAF and Arty I also have huge armies in late game, for instance: 4 commando squads, 2 snipers, inf section, couple of ambushed Achiles, Arty cromwell, 17p, few emplacements. For Terror it's always the same, the top of the army power fall on 30-40 min (when first panther comes out) and then you won't have something better, even if game will last long several hours: Terror - 2-3 grens, at teams, panther, 2 nebels, stuka (best case), Blitz - 2-3 storms, 2 Ostwinds as AA, 2 tigers, maultier, at team, maybe stuh (best case as well, army is bigger than terror one because of fuel and mp trades). For sure this combos are super deadly, but that's german absolute maximum, you cant expect something more. At the same time alies can have truly infinite armies, I won't act like you saying "some time ago I had a single game where we smashed blablabla" just check replays, playing as RAF,AB,Tanks,inf or cw arty I do reach 200 pop cap every second time, that is something I have never achieved playing axis.
Last edited by Sukin-kot (SVT) on 28 Jan 2016, 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Jan 2016, 17:48

1. A persh cost just as much as a Panther G but being much worse vs inf. And without AP its not that good vs Panther.
2. Rangers in armor doc arent really usefull actually. I mean what can they do there? Almost nothing (feeding panther G maybe)
3. Usually Terror doc consist in late game off 3-4 grens (mostly 3) and 1-2 AT squads. Walking stuka (and or nebler) and the Panther G. And that stuff is more than enough to fight back any ammount of enemie units. As already pointed out, most terror players play carefully. When they get first Panther G they wait with it using it to hold the line. And 2 AT squads, 1 gren and Panther G can very well hold back any ammount of allied tanks. Your panther has faster and has sight range boost. 76 cant really pen the tank and if you drive into a Hellcat its afterall your fault you didnt wait to have enough res in reserve. And here comes the actual problem. Armor doc can field a lot due to supply yard but often enough all masses doesnt help to make a break. And once SP is dead (to walking stuka or whatever) there is no real option to make an head on attack. Besides that KT can be an ultimate Tank force crusher. You will never rush a single 240 MP squad as armor doc towards a Panther lmao.


Also you said exactly what i said: You summed up ALL options to kill a KT. You mentioned long tom and SP. Those are not in one doc. But thats what i meant by "current expectations".


Also the supply yard does allow to get lots of units in long games but it also means not to lose to many in mid stage. But thats sometimes somewhat hard to achieve since nonstop bombing on every square meter isnt a rare thing when playing vs tripple terror. And in this regard the replacment rate of Pershings isnt higher as those of a Panther G when both armies are kept relatively small (Axis by purpose, allis by bombing).

So you are not getting more and faster Pershings out as replacment (or not much faster) than a Panther in average. Just that the Panther G doesnt need additional special anti inf unit.

And we are basically not even talking about the Panther G.



There was a Big Deal when we removed the KcH. That "deal" was that terror wont have any elite inf anymore as it has elite assault arty and elite tanks already. So the intention was to remove the elites (kch) by replacing it by standard inf that would receive some special upgrades and abilties (flame nades, nebler VT etc).

But we have probably overseen that the squad, supposed to be just an overpriced standard unit, has actually been an elite unit (and turned out in games) that had correct cost (450/37) set elite unit in terms of cost. So we dropped the cost of them by a lot by boosting them with new weapons at the same time.

So the actual idea of giving Terror doc standard infantry failed in so far as those "standard" inf is even domination most of the more expensive elite inf. And that was before we even added the Panther G to terror doc.

So keep in mind maybe that the terror would have had less powerfull grens and "only" a Panther A. That we got the G in Terror is a nice thing but that they have also cheap and many elite infantry isnt that nice.


And its this "failed deal" (Elite armor+powerfull storm arty+standard infantry) which currently causes that often occuring triple and even quadruple Terror doc games (because they also got Elite instead standard inf).


You might say: "But i see double inf doc as well". Sure, but you wont get surprised and tactic can be adjusted to that. The ammount of inf and emplacments just become more but not necessarily more usefull as pure quantity of the same doesnt makes these even more usefull. You just need to choose powerfull inf and emplacment bashing docs (BK, SE, Terror). But if you face tripple terror you will never be able to adjust correctly by choosing "correct docs" coz doesnt matter how often you face tripple terror you will never find a perfectly adopted tactic against it. Coz the ammount of grens, tanks or arty can vary a lot. You might prepare for lots of arty because in previous game they got many stuka and nebler? this time they spam more grens. You gonna prepare for lots of grens? They now come with lot more Panther G. You then prepare to counter those (Like RE+ inf combo)? This time they rape you with arty and grens. And this circle continues.

There dont need to be any real accord between the players. Just get three terror and go. It makes any pick of further doctrine pointless except SE maybe. The SE doc is the only one that "adds something new" to terror doc. BK, Luft, TH (even def doc).... pretty much all can be replaced by Terror doc which often is even better than any of those in every aspect.Just take 2-3 Terror and one SE and you will be fine. And thats what happens atm in many many games.


Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
That's not true at all, multiple terror happens sometimes, personally I have seen it twice. But "lots of games", "2-3 terror seems standart" wtf, whom are you trying to fool?

Pretty much all i played in past weeks. I admit that sometimes def occured (since stupa buff) which resulted in having often Panther G+stupa+grens and three squads of def doc pios for quick repairs.

But usually when i played 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 there had always been at least 2 terror docs. But not only in those i played but also in those i watched in streams (since the beginning of december 2015. Thats where i started to count).

This combo got usually accompanied by either def or SE doc.
In games i played at St. Hillaire and road or linden we also just picked double terror.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 28 Jan 2016, 18:10

Panther G have been added before KCH got removed, even before they got nerfed actually, that was a "golden" time for terror, having KCH, 5 Nebels, Stukas and Panther G.

I thinnk Terror could be make up good by moving King Tiger to TH doctrine ( Walking stuka unlock added instead ). In TH it can replace useless Nashorn. Will be a kind of "double kill", weaking terror and reviving interest to TH doc at the same time.

Also, some people are pushing to reduce axis docs versitality (which is only about Terror in fact, since BK struggles when facing emplacements and arty abuse) but never mention that alies in return are better in their particular roles + able to field and combine more units.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Jan 2016, 20:05

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Panther G have been added before KCH got removed, even before they got nerfed actually, that was a "golden" time for terror, having KCH, 5 Nebels, Stukas and Panther G.


For me the Terror seems better with current grens, Panther G and walking stuka. The grens allow more continues push and higher versatility than two kch squads running all few mins an attack with 6 nebler in base. Atm Terror seems way more dangerous as with kch and Panther A.

I thinnk Terror could be make up good by moving King Tiger to TH doctrine ( Walking stuka unlock added instead ). In TH it can replace useless Nashorn. Will be a kind of "double kill", weaking terror and reviving interest to TH doc at the same time.


King Tiger in TH doc. I am not 100% sure about the use to be honest. Tank killer? Thats done by Jagdpanther for way cheaper cost. Getting KT to kill inf? Meh... There even SS squad and Tank IV would be preferable. A Panther (G) would fit way better for TH doc in my opinion as it is the best multipurpose weapon. Nobody in Th doc would get KT just to kill some tanks and for killing inf only its a waste to get KT.

The Walking stuka unlock could be placed elsewhere to be honest (Sector propaganda? cheaper goliath?)

Also, some people are pushing to reduce axis docs versitality (which is only about Terror in fact, since BK struggles when facing emplacements and arty abuse) but never mention that alies in return are better in their particular roles + able to field and combine more units.[/quote]


Having elite inf as standard, powerfull offensive arty and best armored and gunned tanks is a way too much versatility, even for axis.

The BK isnt lacking anything really. In case you face many emplacments just get storms early enough with schrecks and upgrade ammo asap.
But here for example i was trying to get a stuh being similiar as the stug III. Being cheap, many abilties ( off map smoke cover on determined position so that you can rush emplacments easily, suppressive fire ability, hull down at vet 2 and assault ability) in order to enable a Stuh/storm/gren combo to overrun a larger ammount of emplacments easily and fast. But got denied actually.
I was mentioning that the stupa has an "armor bug" that changes armor from Panther to tank IV value after skirts are upgraded and that we can fix this rather instead of "returning to super mega range super shelling bad ass trolling" Stupa. Again nobody gave a shit for it.

The PE is always versatile, just cost of units is the factor that denies making good use of available options. Here i was all up for changing that (luft cost changes, 5 men squads etc) but got also denied/ignored... idk. So its not that we dont try to seek to balance these suggested changes out elsewhere. But funny is that whenever i am going (or me and one or two others) for such stuff nobody cares. Just fucking nobody ever cares. But dare there comes something up that might question the extrem domincance of Terror doc (over all other axis docs) people streaming to the forum to prevent that their beloved "all can take terror and we still get the best of everything" Terror "Strategy" is being touched in any way.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Tor » 28 Jan 2016, 20:42

If devs nerf terror, need buf: blitzkrieg doc, TH doc, Luft doc. If devs dont want this, 2vs2 fights just gone, USA rape all here.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 28 Jan 2016, 20:49

Tor wrote:If devs nerf terror, need buf: blitzkrieg doc, TH doc, Luft doc. If devs dont want this, 2vs2 fights just gone, USA rape all here.



Use the word "change" which would result in a doctrinal buff without Buffing values (which doesnt mean that the change isnt a buff).


So, just to mention, we had a long discussion about Luft. Idk if you followed it.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Tor » 28 Jan 2016, 21:08

A lot people play bk doc, after "change" 50% start play another games, 50% stay, looks like soon we get new "change" and YOU get 85%.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/blitzkrieg-same-fronts
Soon it will be a 2 second most popular mod) USA vs USA nice.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Wake » 29 Jan 2016, 05:58

Currently, I see Terror Grenadiers as better than Stormtroopers, because they get 2 free StGs, whereas the Stormtroopers only get 1. When playing Blitz doc I'm usually low on munition anyway, and I cannot afford to spare the extra. I need skirts for my Panzer IVs, etc. But, in my experience, Blitz doc actually lacks in artillery capability. All they have is the Opel Maultier halftrack, which is basically a mobile nebelwerfer with 12 rockets instead of 6. It's not that effective against emplacements though, and costs the same as the Walking Stuka (less cost to shoot, however).

Another thing I should mention is that the Panther is actually one of the only good all-rounder tanks that Terror gets. It can build Panzer IV Ausf Es, which have good HE rounds but are terrible against anything else and have very weak armor, they have Panzer IV Ausf F2s which can fight Shermans but still has weak armor and is terrible vs infantry, then they have the Tiger E normal, which has no top MG42 and is bad vs infantry as well. The Terror doc's Tiger faces the same dillemma as the Pershing: Good armor and good vs other tanks, but infantry can just walk around it without taking much damage.

Then there is the Koenigstiger, which is good vs infantry if you get the top MG42 version, but the one without it has the same issue of not threatening infantry too much. Infantry is actually a bigger threat to the Koenigs than most tanks, because they can get close and throw sticky bombs, Gammon bombs, or get behind it with bazookas because the Koenigs is so slow.

I will also say that I am extremely against the removal of bazookas for non-Inf doc rangers. Rangers are one of the best units for allies because of this reason.
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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Kasbah » 29 Jan 2016, 10:26

Just move Panther G to TH doc and problem solved.

Terror will benefit because it won't be that much "jack of all trades" with the best of everything (KT and Tiger will remain, but their cost is extremely high) and TH will benefit because it will replace the useless Nashorn and there will finally be a doctrine in PE that has a tank with good offensive capabilities, (not just tank hunters with useless Mg's that eat all the shit of enemy infantry without being able to do anything.)

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Butterkeks » 29 Jan 2016, 15:40

Kasbah wrote:Just move Panther G to TH doc and problem solved.

Terror will benefit because it won't be that much "jack of all trades" with the best of everything (KT and Tiger will remain, but their cost is extremely high) and TH will benefit because it will replace the useless Nashorn and there will finally be a doctrine in PE that has a tank with good offensive capabilities, (not just tank hunters with useless Mg's that eat all the shit of enemy infantry without being able to do anything.)


That would actually also be my prefered solution. But I highly doubt that it would be implemented :/

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Kasbah » 29 Jan 2016, 19:51

Same man, and it appears to be the choice of several members. Such a pity

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Warhawks97 » 29 Jan 2016, 20:35

but then we would still have supposed standard inf being way better and more cost effective than elites.

For Terror i would simply prefer to have it current Tank power, their assault arty and standard inf which just need to become standard.
BK would have the mix of elite inf with good tanks but therefore less powerfull arty (than terror) but still capable one. It btw fires 10 rockets which leave some bruning ground ;)


Otherwise we would have a bunch of more or less usless tanks in terror doc combined with "standard inf" (That is better than most elites) and powerfull rocket arty. That then looks similiar to propaganda doc. I dont say its bad but then grens would have to become standard inf still and elite inf added to Terror doc (stormtrooper).

And then at the end we would end with something i already suggested: A complete BK and Terror doc overhaul. BK doc kind of heavy breakthrough armor doc with average arty/inf support, Terror a doc with inf, elite inf and stormarty (walking stuka, supa/stuh).

But devs already denied that so yeah. Make grens being simply standard inf. besides that Its not just Terror grens that perform like elites. Their standard performence is way above standard and even in Def doc after defensive upgrade the grens will beat pretty much every other inf.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Wake » 30 Jan 2016, 03:43

Just played a very long game, 3v3 with double terror and one SE. You can stop all the Panthers IF you have lots of munition for artillery. This also stops the vetted grenadiers. Inf doc can get the Ranger upgrade which allows them to camouflage. Put your rangers into craters, etc and wait for the enemy grens to get close while camo'd. At very close range, the Thompson deals more damage than the StG 44, and the grenadiers will either die or retreat.

http://i.imgur.com/rb2L0yl.jpg?1
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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Wake » 30 Jan 2016, 21:48

I just played a few more games as Terror, and on maps where there is not enough munition to constantly be shooting arty at the Panthers, any American player is almost hopeless against them unless they go armor. The biggest, most powerful AT gun that the U.S. can make is the 76mm, and that usually bounces off, even when camouflaged. Using any sort of infantry against the Panther is also quite useless, because it kills them so ridiculously fast.

Even the 17 pounder occasionally bounces off the Panther. Usually, if I see an AT gun or emplacement, I shoot my Stuka at it, then that's all the allies have. I can then drive my Panther into the enemy base and kill all of their units there.

Simply put, an allied team needs to have a British player or an Armor doc to defeat the panthers. However, this is fine by me, since it follows along the "team composition" idea that one doc can't do everything.

The only things in the entire game that can seriously threaten a Panther G are:

17 Pounder/Firefly/Achilles
Jackson/Pershing
Artillery/Airstrikes
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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Tor » 03 Feb 2016, 15:00

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=972&view=unread#unread
Here infantry with bazooka kill many panther g.

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Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Butterkeks » 03 Feb 2016, 18:14

Watched it.

Simply a joke that you want to take this as a "prove" that bazooka is so good against panther.

1st Panther G was damaged by AT gun and had around 5% HP left when it doged 5 Zookas and was finally killed by the 6th.
2nd Panther G took around 3-4 Zookas/RL in the rear.
3rd Panther G was again damaged by AT Gun to around 50% HP when it again doged several zookas and got finally killed by one.
4th Panther G was killed by AT Gun + bomber.

I stopped watching around 10 mins before the end as it was the same pattern over and over again. Something nearly kills it or takes half of it's HP away and 2 out of 10 zookas penetrate and kill it. Note that these even were the M6A3C Zookas.

If anything, this replay only proves how OP Terror doc is. AgentDunham needed nothing else than two PGrens to fight off Inf player and only needed to wait until he could spam Panther G. Once a Panther G was destroyed, another one immidiately took it's place. Recons weren't needed at this point because of Panther G sight.
The only reason why the US At gun empalcement wasn't discovered is because inf player built it basically in his base when the fight was in the middle of the map (Autry).

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Devilfish
Posts: 293
Joined: 26 Mar 2015, 18:51

Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Devilfish » 03 Feb 2016, 20:58

Butterkeks wrote:Watched it.

Simply a joke that you want to take this as a "prove" that bazooka is so good against panther.

1st Panther G was damaged by AT gun and had around 5% HP left when it doged 5 Zookas and was finally killed by the 6th.
2nd Panther G took around 3-4 Zookas/RL in the rear.
3rd Panther G was again damaged by AT Gun to around 50% HP when it again doged several zookas and got finally killed by one.
4th Panther G was killed by AT Gun + bomber.

I stopped watching around 10 mins before the end as it was the same pattern over and over again. Something nearly kills it or takes half of it's HP away and 2 out of 10 zookas penetrate and kill it. Note that these even were the M6A3C Zookas.

If anything, this replay only proves how OP Terror doc is. AgentDunham needed nothing else than two PGrens to fight off Inf player and only needed to wait until he could spam Panther G. Once a Panther G was destroyed, another one immidiately took it's place. Recons weren't needed at this point because of Panther G sight.
The only reason why the US At gun empalcement wasn't discovered is because inf player built it basically in his base when the fight was in the middle of the map (Autry).


Actually this is kinda misleading point of view. Those 2 pgrens were supported by mg nest, at gun, mortar and puma (until it was destroyed for the second time). Additionally by volks upgraded with mg34 who came free from triage center. And it wasn't like nothing. Andrusha spammed inf decently, doing huge trouble to "OP" pgrens. Rifle grenades on cooldown, little support from nobody by firing jeep rockets in the right moment of infantry battle between me and andrusha. Soon andrusha built double 107 mortar pits, well covered by terrain, not mentioning i was short on ammo, spending it to equip pgrens and volks. At the moment i knew that i simply won't be able to hold it against US inf spam. So i went for panther and again and again, because inf wouldn't have last against that US spam, no chance.

What won the game then, was not panther destroying anyone. It was combination of harassing and keeping opponent busy with panthers, while panzer provided support with arty which was mainly killing units.

Panther's sight is huge, no doubt, though as you could see, i was still being raped but camoed units, so i needed a spotter to crawl the area and reveal them.

Yes, I immediately replaced destroyed panther, but for a price that i didn't get anything else. I bet everything on it. In the end, it was about the little luck/edge, how quickly they manage to destroy it, how much damage do i inflict with it before it gets wrecked.

You can see it from one perspective, OP panthers and whatever, build em and you're good, but it's little bit over-simplified. From the other perspective, US inf doc can spam so much, maintain a huge number of units, back it up with couple of 107 and your pgrens can go to hell.

For me, it definitely felt far from comfortably sitting with my OP pgrens waiting for panthers, and then just rolling with it over the US corpses. Feel free to challenge nobody and co. and share the replays, I'll gladly watch it and learn, hoping I'll someday move from my noobish level.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Location: Ekaterinburg, Russia

Re: Terror doctrine

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 03 Feb 2016, 21:22

I also think that Panther G sight shall never be changed, that's exactly what makes this tank unique and cool. Grens can get higher reinforce cost though.


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