Blitzkrieg Mod 4.9.0 Patch TEST

[Terence's Mouth]

Yea the churchills are realy expensive while you dont have many manpower with RE doc,
If you would make churchills with 100less manpower it would be perfect, it wouldnt end in a spam but wouldnt be a disaster loosing one of them.
If you loose a normal churchill now you realy think thats not a good idea to build another one.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am talking about fuel price of Churchills not MP price of Churchills.

[MarKr]

Guys, Church weapons will be adjusted as they were meant to be....that means that those 75mm guns reported as too effective will be nerfed while Panther gun will get buff...at least against MkIV and VI...atm the MkVII should be just about 5% stronger so maybe it'll get some touch too to get some more notable extra protection.
BTW: So Panther should have more penetration against Churchill than Tiger with its 88?

However prices will stay as they are. As already said - MKIV has hard time dealing with PIVs, even Halftracks often require at least 2 hits. So yeah, it can soak up damage but the weapon is not really any stronger that normal 57mm AT gun. At higher vet with TC and AP shots it gets better and PIVs are a bit easier to crack but Churchill is still very slow and two tanks or tank + infantry combo can flank it easily.
MKVI is quite good infantry killer but the 75mm gun (even without HE mod) can penetrate almost nothing stronger than lightly armored targets.

MKVII should have stronger armor but still same gun as MKVI so it can no longer take on Panthers...or you can try but it is very probable that you'll keep bouncing off Panther while it will get a shot through rather sooner than later.

Yea the churchills are realy expensive while you dont have man manpower with RE doc,
If you would make churchills with 100less manpower it would be perfect, it wouldnt end in a spam but wouldnt be a disaster loosing one of them.
If you loose a normal churchill now you realy think thats not a good idea to build another one.

That is why they were made so durable - you can build them and can last much longer than before so you don't need to build one Churchill every 2 minutes. However they need support! If you charge with just single Churchill, it will most probably be destroyed fast.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Yes, the Panther's 75mm gun kwk L\70 has a slightly better penetration power than the Tiger's 88mm kwk L\56 but the Tiger's 88 has better HE rounds on the other hand.

And again; I was talking about the fuel price of Churchills.. and not the MP price! Maybe lower the MP price but higher the fuel price...

75mm HTs, JPzs and Marders should be all weakened against Churchills just like the actual 75mm AT guns now. Or just check the Axis 75mm cannons one by one against the Churchills!!

Good night

[Warhawks97]

Guys, Church weapons will be adjusted as they were meant to be....that means that those 75mm guns reported as too effective will be nerfed while Panther gun will get buff...at least against MkIV and VI...atm the MkVII should be just about 5% stronger so maybe it'll get some touch too to get some more notable extra protection.
BTW: So Panther should have more penetration against Churchill than Tiger with its 88?

Yes. The Panther had better penetration values as Tiger I. The normal 88 L/56 wasnt that "abnormal". It pen was better than most other guns but not as many may belive. What made it dangerous was the damage+ the ability to pen everything when it came (42-43). It also made benefit of the overmatching factor.

But later allied armor got also thicker and Panther had higher penetration as Tiger. The 88/L56 found its succeeder in the 88 L/71 which really penetrated everything at up to 2700-3500 meters.

The L/71 is used by Nashorn, Jagdpanther, Elephant, KT, pak 43.

So 88 is not simply 88 as there are actually two different. There can be huge differences regarding penetration. Keep that in mind.

So yeah, Panther gun had better pen as Tiger I gun (which is actually the normal 88 flak put in a tank).

[MarKr]

And again; I was talking about the fuel price of Churchills.. and not the MP price! Maybe lower the MP price but higher the fuel price...

And again; nope.

75mm HTs, JPzs and Marders should be weakened against Churchills just like the actual 75mm AT guns.

Yes.

Yes. The Panther had better penetration values as Tiger I. The normal 88 L/56 wasnt that "abnormal". It pen was better than most other guns but not as many may belive. What made it dangerous was the damage+ the ability to pen everything when it came (42-43). It also made benefit of the overmatching factor.

But later allied armor got also thicker and Panther had higher penetration as Tiger. The 88/L56 found its succeeder in the 88 L/71 which really penetrated everything at up to 2700-3500 meters.

The L/71 is used by Nashorn, Jagdpanther, Elephant, KT, pak 43.

So 88 is not simply 88 as there are actually two different. There can be huge differences regarding penetration. Keep that in mind.

So it is something like Tiger I 88mm < Panther 75 mm < KT/Nashorn/Jagdpanther/Elephant/pak43 88mm ?

[Warhawks97]

So it is something like Tiger I 88mm < Panther 75 mm < KT/Nashorn/Jagdpanther/Elephant/pak43 88mm ?

Yes regarding pen. Damge higher for 88.


Also thats why AP rounds should have increased pen but reduced damage actually. HVAP, APCR and also sabot afaik do not use an HE filler. So their damage is significantly lower but penetration higher.

Many in BK are bit historcial freaks so they build sometimes up their decisions (what to use, build etc) on their historical knowlegde.
As for me i started using Panther AP rounds vs shermans first when i figured out the damage boost which turned Panther into deadly oneshoter able to stop masses of shermans.

So would be nice if AP rounds without HE filler would have -15% damage instead +25% damage. Would be cool if that could be done.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Oops.. before I sleep... Can I know about the differences between the Churchill's and the Tiger's, or the KT's tank shock abilities btw??

I can see that the Churchill's ability is being activated just like the Tiger's one now!!

[MarKr]

Churchill's ability works pretty much the same but its duration is only about half of the one that Tigers have and Churchills don't make vehicles scared

[Krieger Blitzer]

I only wish if I could sleep well tonight without Bk nightmares! ^^



Edit;
Hey hey, the engine breaking ability of the Croc Churchill should be removed now.. I won't come up closer to it in order to have better penetration chances with my Ace Tiger because of having no accurate long shot available to then immediately find my tank immobilized... Although that Tigers should be having a longer range by default without any abilities even. U know!!


We are now giving the Allies tanks what they deserve of good armor yet with cheaper prices as well while I am afraid too if we are not giving what the Axis tanks do also deserve on the other hand of being able to snipe those Allies tanks from longer distances.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Sad to see that recoilless rifle number got lowered in supply. I cant be sure, but i think recoiless rifle has better penetration values then Zookas! Anyway, damage is pretty low, like with accuracy, so for 101 paratroopers it will be harder to gain expirience, since their weapon worse then m1, which are using the Rifles, and you actually need to pay for Johnson to gain effectiveness, that needed for survival, for a 415 costs unit.

[Butterkeks]

I only wish if I could sleep well tonight without Bk nightmares! ^^



Edit;
Hey hey, the engine breaking ability of the Croc Churchill should be removed now.. I won't come up closer to it in order to have better penetration chances with my Ace Tiger because of having no accurate long shot available to then immediately find my tank immobilized... Although that Tigers should be having a longer range by default without any abilities even. U know!!


We are now giving the Allies tanks what they deserve of good armor yet with cheaper prices as well while I am afraid too if we are not giving what the Axis tanks do also deserve on the other hand of being able to snipe those Allies tanks from longer distances.

So...
It is ok that Tiger tanks have Tigerophobia, but not ok that Croc Churchills can destroy engines with a flamethrower?
Strange logic.

Well, I said that the removal of the third zook would be a bad idea^^

ANd if you ask me, the Luft nerfs were really needed, while inf doc nerfs were not really. Inf doc always struggles with everything that's better than a Volksgrenadier, whereas Luft has the (imo) best inf in the whole game + 88 + Panther.

The M6A3C should affect all zookas and the AT suqad should have three. Why? Simply because it's still a zooka, so it still doesn't hit shit. Plus it's only available in one doc and you have to pay for it.

[crimax]

My humble opinions, SHORTLY:

1 - Give 3rd bazooka to AT LEAST Infantry Doctrine, free or upgrade, give it. I repeat zooks and shreks are not the same weapon.

2 - Tigerophobia or whatever you want call it, it's a ridiculous and unrealistic thing especially VS other tanks. It should be removed from the Mod ...

3 - Yes, Luft Doc got the hugest nerf in 4.9.0.0. It is a fact ! Some crusader has done his job BUT I agreed to this modifications (88s nerfed, SD2 delayed and cost increased). What I really don't understand is why the ones started to spam 88s ((when nobody never done it)) THEN the same ones asked for a nerf.
Why you done it then?
It should be something related to the human psyche.... Oo


P.S.:
Frequently I read posts made by guys that I never see to play the doctrine they are talking about ... I remeber to me and anyone here, that the one that can play any doctrines at high level simply never existed.
So my little suggestion is, when you are going to write (spam) on forum just because you want to be present, or because you want show yourself that you are "good" ....
just detach your keyboard for a while and try to understand who knows a doctrine more than you .....

My regards.

[MarKr]

So I checked the Churchills...to be honest 75mm HT, Marder III, Geschützwagen....all have the same chance against Churchills IV and VI as normal PaK 40 75mm....so maybe they just scored a lucky shot?
JPZIV/L48 had better penetration than intended so I fixed that, Panthers (also pantherturm) got buff....simply said the penetration chances were adjusted according to the info you guys gave me here.

Fortunately we figured out that the "retreat from Hold Ground" should be fixable so it will be done too.

Other problems will be adressed too.

1 - Give 3rd bazooka to AT LEAST Infantry Doctrine, free or upgrade, give it. I repeat zooks and shreks are not the same weapon.

But hey guys...there was a poll and poll results said that majority wants to remove the 3rd zooka...and btw:

Polls and discussions make BK Mod developed by the entire community.
It is the secret to have BK Mod still alive, no other ways.

What I really don't understand is why the ones started to spam 88s ((when nobody never done it)) THEN the same ones asked for a nerf.
Why you done it then?
It should be something related to the human psyche.... Oo

Correct me if I'm wrong but you you should ask Warhawks why he started his crusade against 88s...he found something in stats he didn't like, he asked for a fix, answer was "nobody uses it that way so fix is not needed" and he started to abuse it just to show he's right, some people complained, some even stopped playing BK...well, here's the result.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

2 more points:

1) Usa 37mm pak crew is still immortal.
2) Achiles still autoshooting every vehicle which comes into its ambushed range (hold fire button is needed here)

[crimax]

@MarKr
About "Hold Ground / Retreat Ability" ... good to hear it can be fixed. As It is, it is a bit frustrating to use.

About 3rd zook to Infantry Doc...
Thanks to remember me what I always believed in.
Sure, a poll is a poll and it must be respected, but nowhere is write that it was the right decision, especially after we see its effects !
Infantry Doc has poor performance against tanks, this because 3rd bazooka was intended to be there.

About Luft Doctrine ... It's clear what was the intention BUT 1 or 2 players cannot decide for a doctrine !!!.
Where was the Poll here ??? ... Where was the Democracy here?

88s are OP ? OK ! But I never spammed them, I just used for AA purposes. So, in this way 88s were OK to me. Cannot be it ?

[Devilfish]

I think not only 3rd zook shouldn't have been removed, but it should be default set up for all doc US at squads. For me for unknown reason, this mod follows the rule "US quantity vs Axis quality" (like early russian forces), thus why not follow it? Zook has worse damage, much worse penetration, much worse accuracy and (wtf?!) even longer reload time. While schreck gets no real weakness, as weight or crazy amount of smoke production (which in reality constrained the usage of schreck from buildings and such). Axis gets their stupid quality, so why shouldn't US get 3 zooks instead of 2?? Upgraded rockets would stay with inf doc and would change all zooks.

I never actually understood why flak 88 had this super range and both better penetration and damage then tiger's 88 when they are exactly same cannons. So i would suggest setting these values to be same as tiger's and balancing it with price for example if needed. And if players feel luft doc is weak, we need to buff it in other ways, rather than supporting magical performance of certain units/weapons.

Regarding to 6-pounder (aka 57mm gun) in reality it was capable of penetrating pz4 H/J and with APDS rounds even tiger (not sure now at what ranges). I feel like 6-pounders and 57mm guns are really underperforming in the game. Btw, is 6-pounder at gun now available from british HQ or Field truck? Or you still need to call HQ glider in order to get an AT gun which everyone else can get normally?

[Warhawks97]

My humble opinions, SHORTLY:

1 - Give 3rd bazooka to AT LEAST Infantry Doctrine, free or upgrade, give it. I repeat zooks and shreks are not the same weapon.

2 - Tigerophobia or whatever you want call it, it's a ridiculous and unrealistic thing especially VS other tanks. It should be removed from the Mod ...

3 - Yes, Luft Doc got the hugest nerf in 4.9.0.0. It is a fact ! Some crusader has done his job BUT I agreed to this modifications (88s nerfed, SD2 delayed and cost increased). What I really don't understand is why the ones started to spam 88s ((when nobody never done it)) THEN the same ones asked for a nerf.
Why you done it then?
It should be something related to the human psyche.... Oo


P.S.:
Frequently I read posts made by guys that I never see to play the doctrine they are talking about ... I remeber to me and anyone here, that the one that can play any doctrines at high level simply never existed.
So my little suggestion is, when you are going to write (spam) on forum just because you want to be present, or because you want show yourself that you are "good" ....
just detach your keyboard for a while and try to understand who knows a doctrine more than you .....

My regards.

i played luftwaffe very often in all patches. Nowdays a bit more SE but still. Why i did that crusade?You really asking? I got "crusaded" by 88 spam by playes which couldnt do anything. After a game against luft and def doc who got like 15 88´s , 2 bunkers and 20 mm stuff i simply started that crusade. The guys i played against had been very bad and simply started spamming 88´s like shit. Thing is that "the pros" do kick instantly guys with "stats that arent good enough". If you would have played with guys being not in your personal "top 10 BK player list" then its not my problem you never faced it. So i decided to bring that 88 issue from the "BK outeskirts" into the "BK high society".

So that nobody used it isnt correct. Noobs did to compensate lack of skills. Pros didnt coz of their "gentlemen behaviour" which high highly appreciated. However broken things need to be fixed, esspecially when they bring chaos and frustration into the "outskirts" scarring many newcomer away.

[Butterkeks]

I think not only 3rd zook shouldn't have been removed, but it should be default set up for all doc US at squads. For me for unknown reason, this mod follows the rule "US quantity vs Axis quality" (like early russian forces), thus why not follow it? Zook has worse damage, much worse penetration, much worse accuracy and (wtf?!) even longer reload time. While schreck gets no real weakness, as weight or crazy amount of smoke production (which in reality constrained the usage of schreck from buildings and such). Axis gets their stupid quality, so why shouldn't US get 3 zooks instead of 2?? Upgraded rockets would stay with inf doc and would change all zooks.

Well I also don't understand that.
Actually Allies are made to "spam" more in this game, therefore they "underperform". Axis have less stuff but therefore they "overperform".
So this is how it should work, in fact it's more like a single axis unit can wipe out every allied one, so their "spamming buff" is gone.
Also Axis seem to spam way more (e.g. Pz IV in BK doc...wow).
Best example is the MG:
Try to attack an axis MG with two squads, MG42 will shred the first one, then the other without any of them having a a chance to throw a nade.
Now you build the cheaper allied MG and you can simply take a Panzergren squad and let them walk into the MG until they can throw a nade. If you are lucky, one of the Panzergrens will die doing this.

I was also the biggest enemy of removing the third zooka. Why does everything on the allied side need to be adjusted right and always been looked after that it doesn't break balance but it doesn't apply to german stuff?
Invincible IV/70? Sure, why not.
Very strong KT? Have it as often as you want.
Unkillable Nazi super mutant soldiers? of course.
Tigerophobia? Hell yeah!

And then it's like:
Hey, how about if we give all zookas in inf doc the M6A3C upgrade? WHAT?!!! NO!!! ONLY IF THIRD ZOOK GET'S REMOVED!!!! WAY TO OP OTHERWISE!!!
Uhm...Is it just me or is SAS not really capable of killing anything? WHAT?! THEY ARE ABSOLUTE OP!!! NO NEED FOR BUFF!!!
Hey, I noticed that Schrecks have a 99% hit chance and zookas like 10%, also Boys AT never hits shit... ZOOKA IS WAY BETTER THAN SCHRECK!!! BOYS DON'T NEED BUFF!!!!

I'm just wondering why there's always such a big dicussion if somebody asks for a allied buff, and everything needs to be done veeeery carefully so it won't harm balance, yet there's nearly never a change to the axis side.
I mean, it took like three or four patches to buff the Boys AT a bit, but suddenly WH just get's a Schwimmwagen too, which was the only nice thing as a brit if you had a WH enemy. You knew there would be only a bike that could also be killed with a rifle section in an emergency.

Well, I don't want to be an "asshole", you guys changed a lot of stuff in the upcoming patch and also tried to fix some axis issues, but axis nearly never change or get a huge buff for every nerf but allies get a huge nerf for every buff they get.
I didn't play 4.9 yet, but from what I heard here the zooka removal would be a good example.

I don't know how to express this right or without sounding too offensive. I really appreciate your work and I'm glad that you're doing it, but this just really bugs me.

[Warhawks97]

The zook thing is a long story. Zooks are worth then schrecks which is no secret. The prob was that 3 zooks for inf AT squad+M6A3C for all + slight cost drop for the squad to fit better in the "quantity vs quality" thing would not have been accpeted by devs for sure. So the attempt was first do drop AT squad cost generally simply as they are worse than US AT squad making them more appealing even for armor and AB doc in mid stage.


I think we should try first to go current way. And when Inf doc will really stuggle a way too much with bigger axis tanks (KT is now a way way harder to penetrate by 76 mm, Tiger a bit harder and Panther also harder to pen by US 76 pak+ losing HVAP damage boost) the comeback of third zook is an option when demands do rise up here in forum. But maybe we should somehow try it. I mean the "infrastucture" arround big tanks is often more important as the big tank itself. 88 got changed, paks more expensive, m1 buffed. So even when the heavies will live longer now it might be easier to kill the supporting stuff like paks and their inf now islolating the tank. In this regard it would again be highly reccomendable to move the 75 pack howitzer to inf doc or (or AB doc motorpool in exchange with calli jeep) and again the 105 sherman to armor doc. So big tanks could be easier isolated and infrastructure arround these tanks destroyed. Super heavies should take require smart playing to take them out in open battle which means usually to isloate them and to surround. But thats only possible with adequate options to isloate these tanks and to make flanking as a realistic option. I think thats the main problem.


As for abilties....and units.

Boys AT:
- I saw brits again being overruned by WE schwimms and scouts (4 Boys AT squads overruned). I think give them a second boys AT rifle and fourth men.


Tigerpobia needs rework. Effective only against greenhorns and way inferior tanks. Vet tanks/inf/Ambuhsed units/ superior tanks/Tanks in flank speed should not be affected. They have no reason anymore to scare the tiger since they are aware that they are able to kill them and how. Its too stupid how it works atm.

As for churchill shock it should also not affect vet inf and ambushed units (idk if its already the case).



But i know what you mean butter (and others).

[JimQwilleran]

The thing is that Inf doc always relied on call in arty to kill the heavies tanks. Sometimes bazookas helped. Now bazookas are 1/3 less effective = sometimes 0 of 4 even reaches the target. Inf doc is now a big mass of rangers waiting to get killed by nebel/stuka/panther/tiger. Please dont make it a useless doc, only good for nerfed 107 spam.

[JimQwilleran]

I think we should try first to go current way. And when Inf doc will really stuggle a way too much with bigger axis tanks (KT is now a way way harder to penetrate by 76 mm, Tiger a bit harder and Panther also harder to pen by US 76 pak+ losing HVAP damage boost) the comeback of third zook is an option when demands do rise up here in forum. But maybe we should somehow try it. I mean the "infrastucture" arround big tanks is often more important as the big tank itself. 88 got changed, paks more expensive, m1 buffed. So even when the heavies will live longer now it might be easier to kill the supporting stuff like paks and their inf now islolating the tank. In this regard it would again be highly reccomendable to move the 75 pack howitzer to inf doc or (or AB doc motorpool in exchange with calli jeep) and again the 105 sherman to armor doc. So big tanks could be easier isolated and infrastructure arround these tanks destroyed. Super heavies should take require smart playing to take them out in open battle which means usually to isloate them and to surround. But thats only possible with adequate options to isloate these tanks and to make flanking as a realistic option. I think thats the main problem.

I disagree. I have played enough times with Panther G, when I rushed inf doc without ANY support or "infrastructure", just killing them like flies after 0 bazookas hit me (even when there were 6 of them).

Inf doc needs at least a single semi-reliable AT weapon. AB has Hellcat that 1-shots panther, Armor has SP and Jumbo... Inf doc has "better bazooka" that hits shit with such a damage (6 back shots to kill a panther), and arty that can be avoided with ease.

[Devilfish]

I don't see why 3rd zook for all docs at squads in so unacceptable. Schreck can deal with any kind of armor allies can bring in (including SP, pershing, churchill), simply anything. Zooks struggle even against pz4 H/J and tiger, panther and above....well you know it guys same as i do. And I'm not even counting much worse accuracy into this (why just why??). I really don't see any possible reasoning for not allowing the 3rd zook for US. If anyone thinks of a good reason why not to, please tell me.

[jaggardos]

I know its been covered, but touching on the Hold Ground/Retreat thing, I found that if I had troops in hold ground, and Propaganda was used on them, they stayed where they were, which was pretty awesome but yeah...

[Krieger Blitzer]

PanzerSchrecks are not any better than the upgraded version of Zookas.. Schrecks do often bounce of Jumbos, Pershings, Churchills now, and surely the SP too as well as Comets!!! The reloading time is slightly better for PanzerSchrecks but they are costing more anyways. Accuracy is same... Both are still missing their targets at the end.

Breaking the engine of enemy tanks is another tread breaker ability for an absolutely no veterancy levels to be required.

However that the Tigerphobia got nerfed already btw!