Blitzkrieg Mod 4.9.0 Patch TEST

[Krieger Blitzer]

No need to check the Tiger vs anything.. actually the Tigers generally in Bk are just too fine currently against all the kind of weapons including even the 76s specifically since 488! Not invincible, yet not weak anyhow just a supposed...

[JimQwilleran]

The Jumbo could be penetrated by Panther guns and long 88 mm. Tiger would have issue vs 152-172 mm armor.

Tiger could not penetrate Jumbo at all, only at very very very close distance. Churchill was immune vs tiger. In fact churchills were winning vs tigers in Africa. But of course everyone thinks that Allies had paper armor...

[Krieger Blitzer]

88mm L\56 can't penetrate the Jumbo at all??? What? Well, in both WT and WoT.. I can often penetrate them occasionally! I could penetrate even the Black Prince Churchill using the L\56 in WoT btw... Plus that Jumbos were available with fewer numbers and only on late Feb 1945 like Pershings.

Shortly Jumbos and Tigers are just fine as they are!!

However that if u would like some more deep realistic speech with good known sources then let's together check the penetration values of the 88mm kwk 36 L\56;
As u can see here on the schedule:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

At a range of 1500m this gun can actually penetrate using the normal AP shells (PzGr.39) up to 91mm armor thickness!!! And 123mm using the PzGr.40 (APCR rounds) while the armor values of the Jumbo are just like this:-
http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:A36_Sherman_Jumbo
101.6/76.2/38.1 mm Hull Armor
152.4/152.4/152.4 mm Turret Armor

Which means that the Tiger is able to penetrate the hull of the Jumbo so often very well at quite long distances even by or when using the normal AP shells. Surely it will suffer penetrating the turret but yet not with the APCR shells at a range of 500m too!

[JimQwilleran]

True that jumbo has 101 mm, BUT it is slopped.

Like KT has 180mm, slopped = 240mm.

Slopped Jumbo has 152mm of armor, like the turret. You forgot about that. That is why that without special ammo tiger can not penetrate Jumbo.

But I am happy that you used some sources, not "just agree because I say that".

[Krieger Blitzer]

Oh fine, then the Tiger can penetrate both the hull and the turret of the Jumbo frontally at a range of 500m 'which is not a short distance anyhow btw' using APCR rounds... Right? This doesn't mean it couldn't penetrate it 'at all' as u once claimed! Also in Bk it's pretty much like this.. so what's the problem exactly I wonder??!!

[JimQwilleran]

I just say "Tiger tank can not penetrate Jumbo and Churchill frontally at all WITHOUT APCR". Just want people to notice that allies armor was not paper. I wouldn't even mind to make tigers cheaper but to set armor and penetration values more realisticaly...

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ah, now I can see u corrected ur sentence.. which is good... As it actually differs a lot when to say firstly that "it can't penetrate at all the Jumbo" and then when to secondly say that "it can't penetrate at all the Jumbo without using APCR rounds" Big difference I mean!
Now things are all set into a straight line I guess

But in Bk currently btw the Tiger almost can't penetrate the Jumbo frontally without using APCR rounds!! But surely it could penetrate it so effectively at the sides or at the rear I meant even by using the normal AP shells. So again; everything here is just fine and more like to be realistic enough ^^ Except with the Churchills currently.. but let's just wait to see how the case is gonna be different after the next patch regarding the Churchill But hey, they should be really costing some more fuel since then.

[Warhawks97]

pls stop it or discuss it in History/Realism. I just checked it and tiger pen chance vs Jumbo is 50% at point blank and like 38% at max range (if there are no other hidden modifiers). It goes up to like 50% with APCR rounds at max range. If you would then go full realism then Tigers and Panthers wouldnt have APCR rounds even (got withdrawn to spare materials. Panther APCR got withdrawn in autumn 43 already)


So i currently dont see a really huge prob here, esspecially since 76 jumbo cost just MP (and inf doc jumbo isnt that expensive). Also Tigers are alright in cost. You can argue that Tigers gun is a bit too strong against Jumbo but Panthers APCR rounds are a bit to weak against Jumbo.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hmm, what are u talking about dude? ^_^
Our discussion already just ended as it came with the conclusion of which proves that the Tiger's 88mm gun is just dealing realistically fair enough currently.. against the Jumbo!!

So as I said before too that it's completely fine just as it is! We were just getting a bit deeper into such arguments regarding the realistic values ONLY to set things all on the straight line... That's all.

[Warhawks97]

The prob is simply how corsix and special AP rounds are made. The basic pen chance of tiger vs Jumbo is set a way too high. But lowering those would also affect the APCR rounds power as those give a boost to basic pen in percentage, they dont use completely independent pen values. Next thing is that so far all axis tanks use as AP ability the"Axis_Wolfram" ability which boosts penetration by 33%. This boost is for tiger APCR rounds and other axis guns using APCR PzGr. 40 very realistically according to the realistic penetration increase of wolfram rounds. Changing this APCR boost here in order to be more realistic vs jumbo would cause simply the problem that it also changes the performence of APCR against all other target types, uncluding Tank IV APCR rounds vs Jumbo.


It might be possible to create new special tiger Wolfram rounds with another percentaged boost (these files exist), however, how to set the boost then again as 33% boost is very realistically.

A third option would be to create special AP rounds as "new gun" in corsix files having their completely own pen stats, pen losses over distance etc etc but then we would have the "double shot issue" because when the normal shot is being made and AP rounds loaded then it would count as "new weapon on unit" and these is readily loaded and independent from the normal shots which are "another weapon".


See.... simply some corsix limits here and we somehow need to deal with it. Thats for example why we cant make guranteed penetration of 76 guns vs tiger at point blank and guranteed bounces at max range and we somehow need to find the "middle way".


I hope i explained it good enough oO.

[Krieger Blitzer]

U don't need to explain me that at all, as it was actually me who hinted MarKr about this double shooting issue privately on 486! So I do realize very well how it's working in the first place...

And the Tiger tank basic penetration values against the Jumbo btw aren't set any higher than as supposed to be for now..

[jonnyyankee]

I want to suggest if Wolf can make than US cpu can make at guns and at squads on normal difficult because WH makes alos of bikes i gonna appreciate thanks..

[Krieger Blitzer]

- Disabled auto-targetting of infantry for AT guns (including emplaced; excluding LeiG18 and 1897)
- "Improved Emplacements" Command Tree unlocks no longer lower penetration chances against emplacements (CW RE + WH Def)
- First Churchill available is MKIV (Anti-vehicle with 6 pounder and timed AP rounds) - 480MP 50F 10Pop
- Second Churchill available (1CP Unlock) is MK VI (Anti-infantry with QF 75mm and HE mode) - 500MP 60F 12Pop

Hoho... Thanks!

However that aren't the Churchills going to receive at least a slightly more fuel price btw?
Maybe 50>>60 and 60>>70? ^^

[Warhawks97]

However that aren't the Churchills going to receive at least a slightly more fuel price btw?
Maybe 50>>60 and 60>>70? ^^

calm down, they always will be in need of support from other tanks. Their combat value wont be as hight as a Tank IV H/J and not higher as combat value of an Inf doc Jumbo sherman simply due to speed, missing top mg, no smoke etc. So i think costs will be ok now.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Still I believe their cost shouldn't be less than the Inf doc Jumbos anyhow, 60 and 70 seem to be fair enough.
And what is the fuel price of the AVRE and the 95mm arty Churchill?! They should also cost slightly more I guess...

[MarKr]

Churchills won't receive any more price increase.
Facts:
Churchills will get much better armor
Churchills will get much crappier (or what is comparative from "crappy"? ) weapons - 75mm cannot any longer penetrate Panthers, even mediums are not sure to penetrate, 6 pounder can penetrate medium tanks with trouble
Churchills MK IV and MK VI will be more expensive than they were before (as it stands in the changelog)

So one (kinda big) buff in armor is compensated with one big nerf of their weapons and one (I guess) smaller nerf of their price. So NO, no other cost increase for Churchills.

And what is the fuel price of the AVRE

None - AVRE is a call-in and all call-ins cost only MP. 95mm Churchill costs 450MP 60F and it will stay that way - it cannot attack directly without using its "barrage" ability so once any unit gets in range, the Churchill is defenseless and therefore easy to flank and destroy.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I am not insisting on it.. but u r just WRONG.
Did u forget that they are available so early on the game??? If not as soon as Stugs? What will I have to counter that?? Specifically when they are supported with Gliders over my hidden more expensive Paks now???? How am I going to destroy it?! Using which weapon during such an early stage of the game?? HE shells are still devastating!! Even the normal M4 Shermans are deadly although they don't have any good armor! Just because of the awesome HE rounds mode it does have.
The 95mm arty Churchill does a decent brutal barrage btw... Now when I reach it, I won't be able to easily kill it due to its buffed armor!!! He will more likely escape from me now more often. While it's cheap yet!! Almost cheaper than Maultiers if not mistaken???

Plus that even realistically they can't be costing any cheaper than Tigers.. just saying!

[MarKr]

Plus that even realistically they can't be costing any cheaper than Tigers.. just saying!

Really? Realism is a second thing to care about here... Tigers have strong armor AND cool abilities AND strong gun. Churchills will have strong armor AND abilities nowhere near the ones of Tigers AND a pea shooter when compared to the Tiger gun... In the game, a unit cost should represent NOT only its durability but overall combat value. If you're trying to tell me that Churchills will have better combat value than Tigers then you must be joking...

I am not insisting on it..

That is good to hear but it certainly seems you are insisting .

but u r just WRONG.

That remains to be seen. I, on the other hand, believe that you are exagerating and these catastrophical scenarios will not happen.
BTW: have you noticed that many people read the changelog and you are the only one concerned with this? I would have thought that if it really was such a problem more people would point at it...just saying.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Hey, any plans for release date?) Its almost end of july:)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Did I just mention that Churchills are going to have a similar combat value as Tigers??? No I guess I really never did...

But when the early available cheap Churchill meets the later available expensive Tiger head to head.. the battle will more likely never end, right? Isn't it probably even tougher than the Jumbo?? Endless bouncing off both sides I guess.
Although it's even completely the opposite in real life too... Tigers were earlier available than Churchills.. again just saying!

So how come Churchills are going to be even cheaper than the Pz4s???
10 more fuel price won't really harm the game balance anyhow.. u know! But alright... I guess we shouldn't be arguing each other just for a tiny change as it's not a decent thing to happen honestly. I think I give it up!!
But just remember while keeping in mind that I once hinted on it.

I am not on a hurry of the release date. Let them take their whole time man! We are seeking quality.. plus that several things seem to be not done yet!!

[MarKr]

Did I just mention that Churchills are going to have a similar combat value as Tigers??? No I guess I really never did...

No you did not. But you said that Churchills should realistically cost more than Tigers. I told you that costs of units are dependant on their combat value and that Churchills' combat value is lower than combat value of Tigers -> Why should they cost more? I DON'T mean compared to real life as that makes no sense here since we're talking about gameplay.

But when the early available cheap Churchill meets the later available expensive Tiger head to head.. the battle will more likely never end, right?

Hardly. Early available Churchill is the one with 6 pounder. Tigers have 88mm gun...so...6 pounder at long range has about 7% chance to penetrate Tiger frontally and even if it penetrates, it deals much less damage than Tiger would deal to Churchill. Also at max range Tiger still has significantely higher chance to penetrate Churchill. So one-one, head-on-head Tiger will win most of the times. Also at every range Tiger has better penetration chance so if you have a Tiger and see a Churchill you can either try to take it out from distance or you can decide to drive closer to increase you chance of penetrating it. Of course the closer you get the higher the chance for Churchill to penetrate the Tiger but still the odds are on your side.
You see, this is one of the things I really hate...people haven't even played the mod with new changes and they already make predictions of how stuff will be messed up, what problems it will bring and simply stand behind their prediction and firmly claim that any other way is BS but at the same time having absolutely no idea how the changes will play out in the actual game.

Although it's even completely the opposite in real life too... Tigers were earlier available than Churchills.. again just saying!

Please stop saying what it would have been like in real life...it is irrelevant when we talk about gameplay...

So how come Churchills are going to be even cheaper than the Pz4s???

Because Churchills cannot really pose any great threat for PIVs (as long as you use your PIVs smartly) due to their gun nerfs!!!

10 more fuel price won't really harm the game balance anyhow.. u know!

Do you realize that these Churchills already have increased costs? Both of them have +10 Fuel (as stated in the changelog and also some MP) so what you actually suggest is to increase the fuel price from one patch to another by 20 Fuel. Also if you say that the +10 Fuel would not really harm the gameplay then if the price stays as it is it won't really harm the gamplay either... The price will stay as it is and only if they prove to be somehow OP we can reconsider price changes.

But just remember while keeping in mind that I once hinted on it.

IF it comes to increasing their prices in the future I fully expect an "I told you so" from you .

[Warhawks97]

I also think that Schrecks will also pose a bit threat to churchills. Also an unsupported 6pdr churchill will be a very easy target for early volks with panzerfausts. The TH doc gets quite fast an Tankhunter IV/70 from TH doc and even AT grenades when churchill remain unprotected. The HE version wont be anyhow stronger than a jumbo sherman from inf doc. I also probably think that Tank IV´s with AP rounds will also keep a chance to penetrate churchills, just less often.


The Allied armor force got buffed and gets another buff with new churchills. Maybe it know would make sense to use the usless TH doc which suddenly wouldnt be so usless anymore. And churhills strenght will simply be the early game..... making them coming as late as Panthers and tigers or as late as Jagdpanthers and Kingtigers would make them very useless again. The docs purpose is advance and breakhtrough and yeah, it should be hard to stop the advance of RE in early and mid stage when churchills are coming but afterall the offensive strenght of that doc will reduce later in the game and it will keep hard for RE to start an advance once their advance would be stopped and losses taken.


So lets simply see how changes and cost will work and i am sure that both, cost and changes will be in a good harmony with game balance.

[Krieger Blitzer]

- Lowered the delay between click and the actual shot in Direct Fire mode

Special thanks to MarKr here on this one!

[Kasbah]

And any word about why the already crap bergetiger has been nerfed and why does the SE doc has only one sniper now?

[Alman]

i think bergetiger needs buff not nerf.