Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

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Sukin-kot (SVT)
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 25 Feb 2015, 15:45

Just check pls what are the stats of fg42 in compare to bar fo example.

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Wolf
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 25 Feb 2015, 15:47

Why BAR? FSJ advantage is that they don't have to get 6x BAR, because they have it from the start. Comparsion should be only to default unit equip in this case, that means against thompsons at best.
If it should be as good as 6x buildable weapons, then they probably should not have it right of the bat.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Feb 2015, 15:54

Wolf wrote:They might get their veterancy gain fastened a bit, but I don't think we did anything to the FG42.

And I agree with warhawks (duh) that they are especially good in early game and luft is overall very good support doctrine in late game, which doesn't mean they are bad in late.



thing is that most players keep playing luft till late game like they do play it in the early. They dominate in the early game but many fail to realize that they get outnumbered in late game by enemie inf, mgs and vehicles but they keep trying to fight with their 2-3 inf squads against that bunch of enemie units. In early versions that was possible due to faster vet (when they got outnumbered they have got vet 3-4 already) and cheap reinforcment. That got changed and players should better start to change tactics and strategy in late game. There BK and Terror are simply the main offensive axis doctrines and luft fits in this combo very well by providing powerfull inf support and flank protection with their schrecks and fausts to friendly tanks. Also luft can then provide 88 back ups when BK and terror do carry the attacks and the henschels can turn important tank fights to their teams favor in critical moments (during offense but also during defense whereas AB bomber patrole is much better during offense when enemie is less good organized). But like 80-90% of luft players do not even build the two final buildings and never even think about using the stuff these buildings offer (including unluck of advanced repairs which often can save a Panthers or Tigers life in late game). Its simply not supposed to be as AB which strength grows with masses (the typical US way).


About the vet speed. How much got it reduced for elite units and whats the boost of the PE veterancy seargent upgrade? (25% less ep to vet up iirc and less suppression).

Maybe this Veterancy seargent could have also an special affect on Luftwaffe infantry. Maybe not the same as to regular PE inf but maybe like 10% faster vet (?). That way it would be a bit easier to vet up new regiment 5 units in late game when those of early died without buffing them by default and thus also in early game. Its just a tought.



About the FG42 its true that they are so far the best "right at default" weapons. At the one hand we need to consider that they are for free but also this weapon was simply a masterpiece at its time and some people consider it even better as nowdays rifles and assault rifles. If you dont want to buff them because they are right by default then you can make them upgradable. I suggested it once when i was talking about reduction of hendheld AT weapons. So what if they would drop with mp40´s? One or two FG42 in a carte (with panzerschreck) and further upgradeable? Then the fg42 could be buffed to be simply the best weapon so far in this game. From an histoircal point of view it wouldnt be bad also considering that just 7500 got ever build. Just another thought.


Edit: You also said for BK2 that you want to have no more freaking expensive inf squads. I like this idea and suggested it also a long time ago. Thing is with units and esspecially expensive inf squads is that it is hard to get them on the field alongside with other units which makes it a way harder to combine them with other units like vehicles or tanks which then results that we must expect from some expensive units to be "immortal" and able to knock out various threats by their own. Maybe we should do that what is planned for bk 2 also for BK1 and to try that non infantry squad at least cost more as 400-450 mp to build. It would then make it easier to field some units at the same time and to combine them. If the Luft players would then be able to combine some luft infantry units with other vehicles their effectivness would be greatly increased as well and luft could then have a larger advantage of their versatility and different types of units as currently the pure production cost of each unit makes it hard to use the stuff the doctrine provides. But that would also require "Fingerspitzengefühl" (good instinct/flair) for the quantity vs quality balancing as booth sides would then field more units alongside with others.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 25 Feb 2015, 16:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 25 Feb 2015, 16:10

Well Wolf, there are no reasons why reg.5 must have less HP than storms (especially when take their price, reinforcememt time and cost). Fg 42, as said, had higher rof than Stg. All seems leggit...

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 25 Feb 2015, 16:15

Then its also no reason why reg5 should have heroic target table? Do not compare unit by one stat.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 25 Feb 2015, 16:23

I like hawks idea though, drop with 2 Fg42 and 4 mp40, schreck in container, 4 more FG purchasable ( 50 ammo for each 2) but it must be really best of the best weapon (and normal reg. 5 hp of course).

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 25 Feb 2015, 16:29

Wolf wrote:Then its also no reason why reg5 should have heroic target table? Do not compare unit by one stat.

Grens do not have heroic table, but more HP

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 25 Feb 2015, 16:31

One of the reasons they dont have different weapon drop is also because the FG42 sound is bugged and atleast now we are unable to fix it, it plays even when they have different weapon.
Their cost is also higher (and all AB costs) because of air drop reinforce, which is something thats a long time in BK and should rather stay.
I don't think that FG42 is bad, that it needs any buff. I will look at it, but really never had problem with its "power" and took its range universality as advantage. They will surely suffer on long range, when dropped with MP40 and I am not convinced, that MP40s are so much better on short range even. So I am not sure what exactly you want to achieve here.

Grens might have bigger HP, but they also can take 1.5x damage from certain hits, so ... again, I would not compare units by hp, especially not by +-5.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Feb 2015, 17:34

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I like hawks idea though, drop with 2 Fg42 and 4 mp40, schreck in container, 4 more FG purchasable ( 50 ammo for each 2) but it must be really best of the best weapon (and normal reg. 5 hp of course).



if the fg42 would be a buffed purchaseable weapon then it would cost 50 for each at least oO. But i think its not gonna happen and not a neccessary thing i would rather prefer that they are affected by vetercany upgrade but not as strong as the PE grens.

Thing is that this unit is a real bad ass in early-mid game and the default weapons, abilties and performence is very well. Comparing 1 to 1 with 101st AB then they will beat them very easily.... i mean a 4 men stormtooper command squad can beat the 101st with their M1 carabines as default weapon. Untill the 101st are superior which requires lots of ammo and MP for build cost and upgrade the Luft player can already have veted squads and other stuff.

As i said in order to achieve better early-mid balance i would rather say to have -50 mp build cost for 101st but +1 or 2 reinforce cost at first. Maybe build cost of luft inf and commandos can also drop by -50. And as wolf said the para units do cost more in reinforcment. SAS more as commandos, 101st more as ranger (even when they are more comparable to rifles in early game), Luft inf more as PE assault grens. And dont forget that they can ambush unlike 101st. If you set an ambush with reg 5 and start shooting at any kind of enemie inf from mid-close range and ensure you that the enemie inf squad will be dead in most cases. The schreck is also better as all the rl´s and zooks but squad remains with 5 fg42 while a comparable 101st would have 2 rl and just 4 m1 carabines.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 25 Feb 2015, 17:43

Wolf wrote:Grens might have bigger HP, but they also can take 1.5x damage from certain hits, so ... again, I would not compare units by hp, especially not by +-5.

I dont compare units by stats, thats just an experince from my games, that grens are more resistant to any kind of fire + all that i mentioned before, better in close range, fast vet and etc. For same amount of kills that required for vet 2 reg. 5 my grens will be vet. 4 already, and will performe much better for sure, thats kinda stupid for most trained german infantry with best weapon of the war.

@Vfa
Storms can crawl toward to enemie with 6 MP44, then stand up and kill everybody.....and?

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Feb 2015, 17:56

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
Wolf wrote:@Vfa
Storms can crawl toward to enemie with 6 MP44, that stand up and kill everybody.....and?



That means what? Also most of the time in late game its better to have schreck on it. When crawling they have short spotting range and thus running sometimes into an enemie unit or enemie has reccons, M20 etc anyway. And if they stay up and start shooting they often end up in heavy enemie fire. I crawl with my leader squad into correct position but mostly in combo with reecons and assault squad ready. They start the battle for me with the off map strike (paks, enemie elite inf squad, HMG´s) and then i rush in with my other assault squads, stay up with my leader squad and activate heroic charge. That can crush and throw back entire enemie armies. Its usually more effective than crawling with one assault squad to an enemie just to kill this one. I rather crush the entire enemie army at once or force them to retreat :)

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wake » 25 Feb 2015, 22:05

Don't mention weapon rates of fire, almost every single weapon in this mod has a wrong rate of fire, just leave them as is because the weapons were originally balanced with their wrong ROF's. I'm talking about like the MP44 shooting quite fast when in reality it fired at a relatively slow 500 RPM, the FG42 shooting very slowly compared to its real 900 RPM fire rate, and the US M1919 30 cal probably being the worst culprit, it shoots ridiciously slow when in real life it fired 600 RPM.

That said, there used to be a time in this mod when the semi-auto garand fired slower than bolt-action k98's. That was fixed.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 26 Feb 2015, 01:29

It should also not only be about ROF, as I guess they didn't really fire full auto all the time -.-
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 26 Feb 2015, 15:33

Just had a first battle, well done with Jeep, absolute superior to bike and schwimm, kills both face to face, have 3 times more HP and supress inf just as fast as mg42 on vehicles, lol. (wtf with schwim btw!?!? you said that its less recistant to AT weapon, but my rifles with 1 Bar recently blew wagen in 2 secs on max distance)

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 26 Feb 2015, 15:45

Against motorbike nothing should be changed?, schwimm got motorbike target type, so there it could be different, will look at it.

Just tried, something wrong with jeep definitely, but BAR vs schwimm seems normal? My BAR rifles in green cover vs schwimm took like 15 seconds and half of my rifles died.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 26 Feb 2015, 15:56

Bike as it was, nothing changed, but Jeep is kinda bs now, sniper\schwim
bike\ hunter unit which can soak dozens of bullets and also supress and kills inf very good. If you want it to be like that, than i think it must get the same amount of hp as bike.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 26 Feb 2015, 16:01

Jeep has kind of big damage vs schwimm and motorcycle, not sure why, and maybe too fast suppression, other than that it seems pretty okay. Doesn't look like inf is now somewhat superior, and even if, then BAR vs schwimm should probably do a lot.
Not sure what you mean with HP, schwimm has same HP as jeep afaik, bike has lowest.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 26 Feb 2015, 16:03

Jeep is reciving very low damage from rifles, 3 times lower that bike or schwim. Try it with volks.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby PiotrW » 26 Feb 2015, 16:05

Please also check Jeep vs PE Scoutcar ;)

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 26 Feb 2015, 16:09

Thats kinda vehicles from different categories lol.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby PiotrW » 26 Feb 2015, 16:12

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:Thats kinda vehicles from different categories lol.


Just... take a look. Maybe i'm wrong.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 26 Feb 2015, 16:19

Didnt seem somewhat wrong against scout car, jeep does some damage to it, but not out of usual.

Anyway, I will ask markr, but afaik nothing was changed in jeep armor/HP, so it should still receive damage like before.
Isn't it just that it suppreses / kills more rather than anything? Volks in green seem to do the same damage to jeep as before.. imo.
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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Warhawks97 » 26 Feb 2015, 16:53

In my first two games the jeep suppressed inf. Vs volks it did in booth cases not much. I can upload one replay... i ran like always over open field towards jeep untill i reached green cover. My volks lost no men or got suppressed. I killed it as fast as usual. Rifles with M1 and green cover took longer to take out schwimm as Volks did need to kill a jeep.

In my second game at reversed enemie Volks stand in front ot this little chapel. My Jeep arround that tower on the field and got repaired by enineers which had cover behind this tower. The Jeep to 4 bursts to suppress the volks.


Jeep and Schwimmwagen have 185 HP iirc. Jeep in very old versions had 225 hp and bike was below 100 at that time and came later. Just sayin.

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Feb 2015, 17:56

Well, I can now confirm that PE Schwimmwagens are currently turned to become absolutely nothing but a real BS! They should surely receive their old well known armor functions state of v4.85 through the next patch really... I don't know for what reason did MarKr actually change the values of it though since no one asked. It was ok! However; I can't deny that he definitely did a great job as exactly tasked with the rest of all other things indeed regarding (as an example) the bugs which personally I pointed for him considering both the Direct Fire and also some certain different ammo abilities..

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Re: Blitzkrieg Mod 4.8.6.0 Patch

Postby Wolf » 26 Feb 2015, 18:55

I checked the files from 4.8.5.0 and 4.8.6.0... schwimm got motorcycle armor, because of reported AT problems. Schwimm has the same HP as jeep, that wasn't changed.
Schwimm weapon was changed ONLY against bren armor. So its still as it was.
Jeep accuracy was buffed and its burst increased a bit, thats because of reported "pea shooter all the time". Plus it got suppression, which axis vehicles have too, so axis players should not let their infantry to stay without cover all the time and should care about infantry like allied player, thats good right?

So I'd say we should reduce jeep accuracy/damage against motorcycle armor, to get back a bit more balanced "light vehicle" fight, but against inf and everything else, it seems okay.
Schwimm vs BAR seemed normal, you probably should not let kind of LMG to fire on your motorcycle, damage vs inf is still the same.
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