5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

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kwok
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 12 Jul 2019, 16:04

Yes.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Jul 2019, 20:19

kwok wrote:Based on watching how the game flows in replays, in the opening/early stages of the game, upkeep does not really mean that much. It's only once it gets to mid/late games does upkeep really start impacting. That's what the supply yard is for though.



Lol, really now? Yeah, its no prob when you get like 20 MP per min less or more when both sides going to, assuming, spam volks/rifles. There are players that sometimes went up for 6 volks squads (like figree sometimes did). Do this with rifles and you end up dead in mid game.
There is a reason that i ask for earlier supply yard bc in a 20-30 min game it doesnt pay off. Also lots of WH players stick with T2 phase untill they get res for bigger stuff. US has to tec almost to max to even get the supply yard.


So upkeep does matter, i feel it very badly in the stage from early to vehicle phase. All gains made by using lots of inf is pointless when you get driven back by pumas while your MP income is near 200. Wh spams inf and can smoothly go with enough MP to vehicle stage. In other words: good opening as US with aggressive playing is hard to maintain and holding the ground even harder, a good WH opening with aggressive play is more likely to work out in the long run. The high MP income rate due to low upkeep and low reinforce cost enables you to maintain upper hand by quickly securing your points with Pumas, stugs and currently the famous Tank III that withstands most AT guns at that time very well.



Good job. Who did you play against?


Oh gosh, idk who the last were. I tried most as US untill i got rid to face terror doc all over the place. I guess you can guess the names. But i can say that the double volks opening with sandbags totally crushed even three rifle squads of mine. Usually it was double Volks+schwimm or double Volks+Pak 36. In any case, sandbags and the schwimmwagen firepower gave a huge firepower advantage and there was no chance at all to close in. Used my own sandbags from my engis but it didnt change anything.


I know for a fact I have a replay saved in the former beta where a 7 man rifle with double bars would out trade def doc (with buffs) grenaders with lmg AND volks at long range.


Hello, wake up. I said i play standard res. How to get a 7 men rifle squad right away? And you just removed it from game.
And show me pls how defensive boosted grens with lmg42 lose against rifles. Perhaps the grens were given MP40 or stg for long range engagment?

And two BAR are 130 ammo. Given the fact how squishy they are its a big risky investment compared to the healthy long living grens and their 85 ammo lmg42 upgrade, isnt it? So i expect something when i invest 130 ammo.




Congrats, you've clearly haven't played the beta.


not latest, but previous one. And there i made the experience with two volks/schwimm or two volks/pak and they beat the shit out of rifles. And the more open terrain, the better is Volks with sandbags.


1. AT squad was removed and blitz only and out of the WH barracks, so it becomes a tradeoff with volks. Besides, in the past 37mm paks were able to one shot jeeps but that didn't stop players from using jeeps. It wasn't until new garands came in and BEFORE at squad did this rifle only open become super popular.


And i clearly stated that you cant risk 240 MP when you dont know if your enemie goes BK or not in a standard res game. So i wont risk to test it out. Most have gone BK doc for testing or else terror doc. But in any case i wont risk a jeep hoping my enemie isnt BK.

2. HMG openings from WH are weaker and from US are stronger now. They are now suppression oriented weapons and probably WONT do as much killing as before. We might even look to reduce the price of the MG42 since it's really not as effective to justify its price. I could literally say the same about rifles and the old 30cal to an even GREATER extent... the DPS and even suppression values of the the 30cal was absolutely ASS compared to the garands. Don't even get me started on the vickers.


i was just about to ask to drop HMG42 cost rather than buffing Volks weapon stats beyond CW commandos :roll:
Apparently you want both now, cheap HMG42 and "VolksCommando".


3. Ever since barrage mu costs, mortar openings are almost not used anymore except against hmg openings. You can literally only use 1 barrage with no capping power if you open with a mortar. Super useless opening now EXCEPT as a clear counter to a specific opening, as most openings are intended to be. The mortar might not kill the HMG right away, but it creates parity where it removes the HMG from dominating a zone, as intended. If each player both chooses to get a support weapon they are trading off capping power. So net both players are going to be not gaining much ground with a slight advantage to the mortar AS INTENDED.


Right, so if you get one you might get overruned by Volks/schwimm, if you dont get one you maybe stuck against an HMG42. And untill you get the 60 mm after waiting for 2-3 other units to be completed, your axis opponent has gotten the 81 mm which is a guranteed Meta and you get bombed out, waiting for your 81 mm mortar HT which takes ages to come (hello upkeep which plays absolutely no role in early game :roll: ) besides the fact that you already better prepare for the Tank III storm that is soon to arrive bc WH got flooded with MP meanwhile (hello you lovely upkeep again).

4. Double sniper opening, ehh.... i have no comment there. I have my own opinions and let the community shitpost about it. People don't do this on standard res anymore though, not since messuupgood basically got kicked out of the community.


ive still seen it, depending on map ofc.

I think people just don't play the way you think they do anymore. The meta has changed a LOT. All in all, "don't blame the players for only doing rifle spam when YOU ruined most other options"? Seriously man? Lol, literally the only thing that has changed in the early game over the last year has been 2 things: garands and at squad. Prior to the AT squad, rifle spamming was optimal. And since the AT squad, we have reverted it to an extent. So personally, if anything it was YOU who ruined the other options with "your garands". I'd love to roll back the patches and show but unfortunately my pettiness isn't allowed to drive the decisions. I'll even tell you that I was against the k98 changes at first, but your responses to the decision is making me think it was the right decision afterall.


I dont really get it.
Apparently you didnt like the K98 change either. So what? Whats "correct" in having an opening unit with weapon stats of late Elite forces, even better? Tell me one thing that is right here except for your narrow "Garand vs K98 view"

Anyways, we're going to keep an eye on this EXPERIMENTAL change with an open mind of reducing the actual magnitude of the change. We were gonna hit garands with the nerf bat or buff k98s. But so far it seems like the change in principle will stay.
[/quote]

Would be nice if you guys were so friendly to experiments regarding Tank IV armor/76 mm gun issue.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 12 Jul 2019, 21:22

Warhawks97 wrote:
Congrats, you've clearly haven't played the beta.


not latest, but previous one.



yeah, we're done here. sorry i'm not going to read your wall of text when there is feedback from people who have actually played it.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 12 Jul 2019, 22:05

I did play latest version but not pvp. And i already said that the Volks sniped out units extremly quickly, almost handling along huge waves of rifle squads and scoring more quickly than HMG42.
I just didnt dare to play the latest version bc the last one was well enough when Volks could effectively deploy crossfire tactics with sandbags advantage, having less upkeep/reinforce cost and thus more spamable. Things will just get worse. And your only "answer" was or rather is: "7 men rifle squad with double BAR bla bla..." have you ever tested to play only with normal rifle squads? with 25 MP per men instead of 18 or what it was for the 7 men squad? That was the main reason i (and probably the majority) went for it when i could, lower reinforce cost and not bc of shitty BAR´s. The 6 men squads cost currently too much in reinforce cost to be a real core infantry unit and meatshield like Volks are. The 7 men squad is, but not the normal one.



But yeah, anyway, sorry that i didnt upload every game that ended in massacres after like 5-8 mins of playing. Like i just didnt see a reason when the game ended quickly when two volks, pios and schwimm as rearguard locked me up and killed me in ranged combat. The game had ended at that point before i could get motorpool up. It was only a last stand with lots of 57 mm AT guns possible. Perhaps ask red how even double bike tactics have totally shred our rifle squads within seconds. Just go and ask him, i hope he is on your VIP list. But there nothing is being done, totally fine... yeah... same as with panzer IV armor values.... nothing is even considered to be tested/adjusted here.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 12 Jul 2019, 22:52

Yeah, playing PvP is totally the same as playing PvE because never in the past have I EVER managed to kill wave after wave of allied units with two infantry squads and one AT gun....

You don't even play the game with changes in PvP and you come up with your scenarios where the changes cannot ever work and tons of reasons why they are supposedly bad and argue about it on long and long pages. We just as well don't need to implement and test any PIV armor changes and we can give you dozens of theoretical scenarios where it is a bad decision and completely ruining gameplay. We can argue about it on long and long pages too.

Anyway, you already have those changes in your "perfectly ballanced super hardcore realism simulation" mod where you've obviously improved AI a lot too because it seems you cannot beat waves of enemy AI units with a handful of your own there. Can't you just play your ideal mod there and stop bitching about porting every aspect of it into BK here?
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 12 Jul 2019, 23:35

[quote="Warhawks97”] have you ever tested to play only with normal rifle squads? with 25 MP per men instead of 18 or what it was for the 7 men squad? [/quote]

Yes I have. maybe 20 games worth.

And sure, we can put red into our vip list of people who like to test. Tell he to join the vip list he should go to the steam properties and switch his mode to beta and then play pvp games. Then congrats! He has joined the glorious vip list. You can do the same too Warhawks!

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Jul 2019, 00:04

kwok wrote:
And sure, we can put red into our vip list of people who like to test. Tell he to join the vip list he should go to the steam properties and switch his mode to beta and then play pvp games. Then congrats! He has joined the glorious vip list. You can do the same too Warhawks!


we have played the beta. And when Volks and schwimms shredding rifles in old beta version quite effectively already, how should it be better now?

I just asked players in steam if they play beta or if they are up for a game: "Answer: dont wanna waste time with this genius changes
when update come i end play coh". When i asked what and why: "balance?
rifles uselees meat and they remove 1 bar"


I copied that from one player into your private steam. So far i asked three and got similiar answers. There was perhaps a small part of players that saw the rifle squad as OP. But most of them refered either to the 7 men squad or were generally more axis players than alli. But i guess that the huge majority was ok the way it was balanced. Rifles performing overall a bit better perhaps, in return axis cost less.

And you didnt only do small changes as you usually do. You came up with a sledgehammer, pushing Volks k98 beyond Enfield commandos and brits basic inf and M1 Garand down to STG performance at distant range. As if small changes for first evaluation wouldnt be enough.


Perhaps go and ask players in steam directly.... menicus, erich or whoever. No one would probably say that Garand was sooooo much superior to K98 that we had use a sledgehammer.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 13 Jul 2019, 03:50

Guess what, Erich just joined the VIP list. Congratulations to Erich.

EDIT:
Everyone say congrats to a new member of the VIP list: playbetter.

EDIT2:
I was given permission to post these. Congrats to figree for being a part of the VIP list.
Attachments
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 14 Jul 2019, 07:11

Warhawks97 wrote:
kwok wrote:
And sure, we can put red into our vip list of people who like to test. Tell he to join the vip list he should go to the steam properties and switch his mode to beta and then play pvp games. Then congrats! He has joined the glorious vip list. You can do the same too Warhawks!


we have played the beta. And when Volks and schwimms shredding rifles in old beta version quite effectively already, how should it be better now?

I just asked players in steam if they play beta or if they are up for a game: "Answer: dont wanna waste time with this genius changes
when update come i end play coh". When i asked what and why: "balance?
rifles uselees meat and they remove 1 bar"


I copied that from one player into your private steam. So far i asked three and got similiar answers. There was perhaps a small part of players that saw the rifle squad as OP. But most of them refered either to the 7 men squad or were generally more axis players than alli. But i guess that the huge majority was ok the way it was balanced. Rifles performing overall a bit better perhaps, in return axis cost less.

And you didnt only do small changes as you usually do. You came up with a sledgehammer, pushing Volks k98 beyond Enfield commandos and brits basic inf and M1 Garand down to STG performance at distant range. As if small changes for first evaluation wouldnt be enough.


Perhaps go and ask players in steam directly.... menicus, erich or whoever. No one would probably say that Garand was sooooo much superior to K98 that we had use a sledgehammer.


I still can't find the problem after the new changes to the Kar, the games i've played PVP i feel like they're at 50% 50% chances now for both sides with garands winning at close distance. So please don't try this stuff on pve thats just a bad way to prove things.
Regarding the Bars i think this weapon could receive a deeper look at, after being limited to just one it could receive a small buff in terms of damage or accuracy.
I don't have any opinion about reinforcement cost of riflemens or a change on vet stuff or reinforcement after building supply yard, it could be a nice feature so im very open mind about it.

All of your vehicles are equipped with cal 50 that where buffed and they're pretty strong againts infantry.

And also you should stop bringing up PE or CW units they have been telling you millions of times through all the update posts that CW and PE changes will come later. And if enfield comandos need a buff on damage to kar level then we would have to try it even when that unit has the possibilty to equip with double mg for free.

If you ever want to try serious games on the beta with me feel free to try, we can arrange a few games.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Jul 2019, 12:12



I think there is a mistake in your calculation. The average damage is calculated with 28. But it is 30 now bc it changed from 23-33 to 30-30 damage. How can average damage be 28?

Also when i fully understand this one, then the K98 outclasses the Garand already at medium range. So from 15 range (grenade range) onwards K98 wins. So we have the same situation we had back then before the Garands got changed. Thats confusing for me now. Or do i miss something?

Edit: You also added 1.25 accuracy modifier boost to the pre-patch K98 at all ranges but you actually didnt do it for short/medium range. So the calculations made there arent fully correct or am i wrong?



Edit 2:

kwok wrote:
EDIT2:
I was given permission to post these. Congrats to figree for being a part of the VIP list.



Watched the first 10 mins of the 1 vs 1 and i dont see what this game wants to tell us? Rifles did nothing special, even with BAR. The main kill source here for kwok was his sniper and captain that scored more than rifles. Figree didnt use Volks for actual combat and just for cap, exploiting and meatshield. No upgrades bought for them.

And the MP lead is quite huge for Figree. Thats the result of roughly 40-50 MP more per min and the MP bleedout for riflemen reinforce cost. Figree and several situations to win this but he refused to use Pumas and ran his first tank blind and unsupported into your just in time heavy AT gun.
And thats exactly the situation i tried to describe right from the first page of this Topic. The MP lead and mortar advantage (not used here by figree) often puts US into a defensive situation rushing for AT guns to prepare for first axis tanks means they play defensive and giving the initiative to axis. So kwok is experiencing the same situation ive been experiencing throughout the first 10 mins in all my past games, just that i got literally stormed by rocket arty and tank III spam and mortar barrages. Figree is so kind not to do so (till min 10 at least) and not using his several hundred MP lead (700 MP lead despite having already lost a tank while kwok has not even got a tank depot!) to increase pressure.


EDIT 3: Watched till end. But can you tell me what the point of this upload was? You proofed how effective Jacksons in combination with scotts and howitzers are. The Infantry however performed bad accross the board. There were two nice sneaky Ranger moments. The Rifles often scored no kills at all. Even agianst pios in the field they fired round after round without impact. Usually your Rifle squads were meatshileds for a short time so that you could strike the targets with artillery. Figree lost squad after squad to arty but every new squad had quickly managed to score 8 kills or more in one or two combats. The Rifles ran arround with 0,1 or 2 kils, a few long living one had 15 kills or so. In few occassions they lost despite superior cover if artillery hadnt supported them so well.


So this game says nothing about US infantry weapons at all. It just showed how you welcomed the jackon to infantry doctrine and how you managed to bring them in effectively.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 14 Jul 2019, 17:27

About the calcs you are correct. They were screenshots we made while we made adjustments. The calculator got bigger and bigger, including stuff like cover bonus scenarios. I just don’t have screenshots or the original file sadly. You’ve seen my base calculator before though, it’s on the google drive. I basically just took that, added a few more variables and stacked two on top of each other to compare.

About the replays, they’re not meant to prove anything except that people play the beta. I’m still looking for the replay with laser garands against grenadiers, but I fear it might be old versions

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 14 Jul 2019, 17:59

Warhawks97 wrote:Bugs:
Medic and Repair Bunker are still changing its owner to a teammate.

I forgot this report in the first place. Does it happen every time or only sometimes? Does it happen only with AI or also in PvP?
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 14 Jul 2019, 22:00

kwok wrote:About the calcs you are correct. They were screenshots we made while we made adjustments. The calculator got bigger and bigger, including stuff like cover bonus scenarios. I just don’t have screenshots or the original file sadly. You’ve seen my base calculator before though, it’s on the google drive. I basically just took that, added a few more variables and stacked two on top of each other to compare.


So do we have a calculator that is "complete" where we can calculate? Bc i still think, let alone the wrong damage stats, are flawed and missleading. Players will just check the blue marked lines but not checking the numbers used to get these results. I also had to look twice here.


About the replays, they’re not meant to prove anything except that people play the beta. I’m still looking for the replay with laser garands against grenadiers, but I fear it might be old versions


i remember one short one 2 vs 2 we played when my rifles killed 3 of your volksgren (actually just two, third was sniper kill) in a quick session. You even typed in game something like "OP Garands". However, at the end, i lost though against Puma and AT rifle.



MarKr wrote:I forgot this report in the first place. Does it happen every time or only sometimes? Does it happen only with AI or also in PvP?


always and only tested in pve till now.


EDIT: @Kwok: The second uploaded match doesnt work for me. I am only watching a bot game. Perhaps you played the wrong version there?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 14 Jul 2019, 23:53

Mortar advantage vs INF doc that has the same kind of mortar than WH ? And everytime i tried to use it it got rocketed by rocket jeep?

Puma in a map that is hard to move with after AT guns has less aim time?

Usa infantry did nothing special because it is more balanced and i also loss the same amount of infantry when fighting at it.

About the PZIII you're true i could have spammed it and the unit still needs a nerf on turret speed and own table armor, But in a game where i don't know what my enemy can get i don't want to waste resources on spamming just for the sake of it.

Btw i think you still need to have a few more games, you're not gonna get the same results by playing the same way that you do in live version i've tried that already.

I think i only did goot at the early mid phase where i had a lot of chances to win because kwok didn't use any of his light tank - armored car units.

I also want to recommend a fix for the white phosporus shoot of the chaffe it seems like somethime dosn't even work plz someone check that script.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Jul 2019, 00:39

mofetagalactica wrote:Mortar advantage vs INF doc that has the same kind of mortar than WH ? And everytime i tried to use it it got rocketed by rocket jeep?


well, perhaps, but you didnt know he goes inf.


Puma in a map that is hard to move with after AT guns has less aim time?



Kwok used scotts too. Light vehicles are always key. You often rushed arround with your tanks when a depot was under attack. A vehicle can react a lot more swiftly and esspecially Puma as support can deny a lot of enemie infantry. You lost many tanks when trying to react with them on inf attacks when a jacks followed up. Puma can kite much better and retreat. Light vehicles are always important in one way or the other. Kwok showed you how with scott. The 50 mm Puma is great to counter such mobile units.

Usa infantry did nothing special because it is more balanced and i also loss the same amount of infantry when fighting at it.


You didnt. You always got hammerd by artillery... i mean whenever a inf fight occured, you got bashed by arty. And your infantry scored a lot more kills combined than his inf which did kill nothing in many occassions or only easy preys such as recons. In two instances your pios stood just there in light cover and rifles with BAR didnt do anything.

About the PZIII you're true i could have spammed it and the unit still needs a nerf on turret speed and own table armor, But in a game where i don't know what my enemy can get i don't want to waste resources on spamming just for the sake of it.


In all games i had in the betas with doc rework, any kind of spam of Tank III won the games or at least put enough pressure on US players to put them into the defensive last stand. You should or could know that you can have a huge MP lead. When you start spamming something with MP lead, you force your opponent to get counter (and thus forcing him to build what you want him to build). But you took the straight way to his base running straight into his first and only AT gun.
Later you ran again a massive tank assault into ambushed bazooka squad although knowing its location and into the AT gun.
And as said, tanks could have been spared if you had used light vehicles for the skirmishes instead of letting your slugish tanks running arround.


Btw i think you still need to have a few more games, you're not gonna get the same results by playing the same way that you do in live version i've tried that already.


I havent played live version since beta game out.

I think i only did goot at the early mid phase where i had a lot of chances to win because kwok didn't use any of his light tank - armored car units.



kwok was in the situation i have been in all my games as US in beta. Pushed into the defensive. He simply hadnt the res for light tanks. And even if, you could have had 75 mm HT and 50 mm Puma as well to counter them. Whenever i tried to use stuarts, it was a waste bc they got countered by Puma kind of vehicles or other big gun vehicles and i had no res left to get the 57 mm AT to counter for sure comming tank III´s.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 15 Jul 2019, 04:18

So you accept that US get pressured by blitz doc? Cool thanks, you've discovered how the new doc changes work and should work, you're right about the puma i should have got at least 1 but i didn't want to waste fuel since usa can get cheap m10 with flank speed to one shot it. The only reason why i used tanks instead of light vehicles is because i was trying to make a smol army based on pz4 and upgraded greens so i could use blitzkrieg hability to run over enemy defenses at full speed if he didn't had the bazookas wich i forgot and didn't saw he cammoed i would have overruned him with pz4 and infantry thats what this doc is good at, playing defensive with blitz will only get you kill with any of the recent changes vs inf or armor, roles has been changed, you have to pressure a lot with blitz or you will lose late game wich got buffed for usa. Cheese axis units like stuppa got nerfed vs assaulting units so it only works good vs emplacements now and some statics units wich is the actual intention of it. I think you're always trying to explains the possiblity of things without having a propper context of playing in real time, where fog happens, rng happens, mistakes happens.

werent u one of those guys who was also crying about ammo upkeep of emplacements leaving you with 0 ammo for upgrades and habilities, but you're also accepting in this post that everytime my infantry tried to fight with kwok's one i got hammered with artillery?
Everything u say sounds perfect on paper, but i think this game is not a perfect science. And im not saying that some units on the axis side or allies aren't weak or op. I always give advices for both factions after having at least 6 to 10 games played on current beta or testing version.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Jul 2019, 10:03

mofetagalactica wrote:So you accept that US get pressured by blitz doc? Cool thanks, you've discovered how the new doc changes work and should work, you're right about the puma i should have got at least 1 but i didn't want to waste fuel since usa can get cheap m10 with flank speed to one shot it. The only reason why i used tanks instead of light vehicles is because i was trying to make a smol army based on pz4 and upgraded greens so i could use blitzkrieg hability to run over enemy defenses at full speed if he didn't had the bazookas wich i forgot and didn't saw he cammoed i would have overruned him with pz4 and infantry thats what this doc is good at, playing defensive with blitz will only get you kill with any of the recent changes vs inf or armor, roles has been changed, you have to pressure a lot with blitz or you will lose late game wich got buffed for usa. Cheese axis units like stuppa got nerfed vs assaulting units so it only works good vs emplacements now and some statics units wich is the actual intention of it. I think you're always trying to explains the possiblity of things without having a propper context of playing in real time, where fog happens, rng happens, mistakes happens.


Yes, Blitz can put a lot of pressure vs US early. All WH can do that due to mortar, Puma and cheap Volks.

But that doesnt explain:
1. Why Garand has to get nerfed so badly that they cant take out a few damn pios sitting in a bush
2. Why US Tier system (buildings) are afterall so static while WH has got more flexibility with second building avaialable before HQ upgrade. A earlier available supply yard would help US to withstand the currently quite brutal BK doc push.
3. Why Volks had to get such massive buff (even better as in the calculation given by kwok) when WH (and esspecially new BK doc) can manage to put a huge pressure on US early game to mid game. Rather than turning Volks into killing machines with K98 we should have dropped HMG42 build cost.


I would have buffed Volks long range accuracy from 0.35 to 0.4 and distant range to 0.38. The Garands meanwhile down to 0.14 (from 0.17) rather than 0.114 which is an accuracy similiar to a machine pistol which has higher rof but a bit less bullet damage.
Meanwhile also a cost

werent u one of those guys who was also crying about ammo upkeep of emplacements leaving you with 0 ammo for upgrades and habilities, but you're also accepting in this post that everytime my infantry tried to fight with kwok's one i got hammered with artillery?



My point of critic here is that with that Rifle nerf, artillery becomes again more important when rifles cant stand a fight and having no killing power.

Everything u say sounds perfect on paper, but i think this game is not a perfect science. And im not saying that some units on the axis side or allies aren't weak or op. I always give advices for both factions after having at least 6 to 10 games played on current beta or testing version.



I know. I will shortly sumarize my actual critic to this patch for those who still havent understood it.

1. Why Volks damage output had to get buffed that much, even beyond that of kwoks calculation with massive accuracy and average damage buff despite the fact that WH and esspecially new BK doc can put huge pressure on US already in early games. Slight increase in terms of accuracy (0.4 long, 0.37 or 0.38 for distant range) along with HMG42 cost drop would have been enough to balance out things. But instead HMG42 remained extremely expensive while Volks got elite unit weapon stats.
2. Meanwhile the massive accuracy drop for rifles once again enforces the usage of arty since they wont be able to pose any real threat unless they get into very close range. So at the one hand we want less arty, but then we take away killing power from infantry which leads to the necessity of arty again. A slight accuracy drop here would have been enough without eliminating the ability to fight ranged combats at all.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 15 Jul 2019, 23:18

1. if you have tried to play the beta a bit more, you would have notice that even in live version, garands,7 men riflemens,50 cal. Are pretty strong and dominating the early game, wich is why WH has to sit behing pak HE ,MG and Mortar.I feel like this was either going to be a nerf for garands or buff to kar. Greens are super expensive and their standar weapons have shitty stats for his cost wich causes tons of mp bleed, also MG42 damage output was nerfed so its pretty much a supressive weapon atm. A way to fix this was buffing Kars so you don't actually have to expend all your ammo on buying weapons cause the new docs need a shit ton of ammo to work.

2. I didn't like the drop accuracy for garands at distant range neither.

3. Maybe try to give a solution between what we have here and what you want, instead of crying about why is not like you exactly want to.

Kars where shit because they needed 3 shoots to kill 1 model with their current damage and half rof than garands, garands were op even at distant range they could win just because they had double the rof of the kars even with less accuracy.

Possible solutions between what you want and what we got here:
-lowering cost of riflemen reinforcement
-buffing bar damage output
-lowering the accuracy only for volks at distant range
-going back all the way back before kar changes, nerfing garand, limiting bar to 1 and removing 7 man rifles.
-leaving all in the current state, making USA captain a more special unit with bodyguards, call in or smoke habilities or mark target hability.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Jul 2019, 00:34

1. I never felt like that. Note i am a standard res player, you a high res player. And even if, this, at first look "poor sitting behind HE pak" was quite effective. Two volks with good cover and HE pak behind and you had a pretty save position. Then just waiting for mortar, Puma and the rest is old story. So you can outcamp US in standard res games. They are very good at this tactics. I could just as well demand that US would also be able to be like that with HE rounds for AT gun and 81 mm mortar as standard morter. But we dont have it and thats called factional diversity. Now volks and rifles are "on pair" but WH afterall has the advantage of HE pak, heavier mortar, lower upkeep and lower reinforce cost. Does that seem fair? Note pls again that i play standard res so i cant get a M20 right away or anything like that. And here the balance is broken now. And i also dont see any "bleedout". WH has by far the lowest default upkeep for all its inf and low reinforce cost. PE has a much greater bleedout (in all areas) with higher upkeep. US gets on pair only after first supply yard upgrade.

2. Fine, as said, slight buffs/nerfs would have been enough at first rather than comming with sledgehammers.

3. I provided middle ways, plenties. Kars were not shit at all. The basic grens had accuracy stats of stormtroopers and enfield commandos. I often used them just with lmgs and k98 for deadly ranged combats. Since i play BK i used volks later for ranged combat. The K98 also had far higher bullet damage than other rifles, esspecially when compared to enfield. If they are crap in your opinion, enfields had to be shit as well bc their stats were exactly the same just that k98 had more damage per bullet. Enfield damage: 19-29, M1: 20-30, K98 (old): 23-33, K98 (new): 30-30. As you can see all rifles needed up to three hits to kill.
Its curious to me where such claims come from that K98 needs more shots/hits to score a kill.


About your solution and middle ways:
- Get proper accuracy drops over distance for all rifles accross the board. So far Axis rifles were the only one that used same stats for long and distant range. Even CW had a drop iirc. For Volks it would mean to have 0.4 and 0.37 or so for long/distant. Grens 0.45 or 0.5 and 0.45. But even those are very elite like.
- Drop HMG42 cost. Even though it doesnt kill, suppressing inf means to achieve a tactical kill and thus must be considered.
- The BAR, when limited to one, needs the damage other lmgs have. 16-20 instead of 12-17.
- As you proposed. Get old K98 stats, remove a BAR and drop max range accuracy slightly for rifles.
- Drop rifles reinforce cost. Perhaps i would link such things and other effects along with supply yard upgrades which should be available ealier so that player can choose if he wants to tec for units first or spending into supply yard first to fight with less different units but for less upkeep for those he has in the early stages.
- Yes, captain needs compensation for Rifle squad loss. WH officer has arty and production boost ability, PE can ambush and doctrinal abilties, SS squad call in, Grenades, CW can spot and use heroic charge... US has nothing anymore.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 16 Jul 2019, 01:38

You keep putting CW and PE in the middle stop doing that this is the 10th time.
The kar's before patch had to shoot double or be very lucky to score hit/kills since it only has half rof than m1, thats why m1 with even 20-30 damage could win againts pre-kars at far-distant range.

You keep saying stuff about mortar... You have the possibility to build a mortar at the start of the game with usa for god sake, WH in the other hand has to tech up to get his mortar, and if you're so afraid don't worry you still have the chance to pick certain doc to have a stronger mortar, whats so bad about starting usa mortar that has the possibility to use smoke and blow up the first hmg that WH does?

The only thing i would give u is the fact that PAK HE shooting range is too far.

You still have a shit ton of building options as usa pre-beta.
As WH you only have one way to play it.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 16 Jul 2019, 14:14

mofetagalactica wrote:You keep putting CW and PE in the middle stop doing that this is the 10th time.
The kar's before patch had to shoot double or be very lucky to score hit/kills since it only has half rof than m1, thats why m1 with even 20-30 damage could win againts pre-kars at far-distant range.


And ive never experienced that.

Back then, when M1 was slow and inaccurate with pisspoor range combat capabilties, it got changed so that it was what it deserved to be, a rifle but also a semi automatic one. The K98 and bolt rifles held the advantage at max range. Ive never ever beat a volks squad with Garand rifles at max range in the early game. And that was prior to this patch here.

And no, the Garand does NOT twice as fast as K98 at long and distant range. Cooldown is 0,75-2,25 sec between shots for Garand vs 2,5 for K98. So its largely depending on the cooldown rolls of Garand.
In return the Volks K98 had twice the accuracy of Rifles, no its 3,5 times the accuracy. The average damage for M1 was 25, for K98 28 and now even 30!


And these "bonus" damages are remnants from xaliburs axis cheat BK mod. There were cheats everywhere. Like 7 sec reload for US 57 mm gun vs 5.5 sec of most axis tanks, the bullet damage for US MG emplacment was the same as in vcoh and in every weapon type the axis weapons had small advantage in average damage. The lmg 34 had 16-20 while most allis had 12-17 damage but also less rof/accuracy. Same for jeeps vs schwimm and even coaxial weapons. While axis had 20-25 damage and same or better accuracy and better rof, allied got 12-17 or 15-20 damage.


So accross the board you see afterall these "cheated" numbers. Usually small once but remnant when BK was a axis easy compstomp game for axis.
Or the minimum possible damage for 17 pdr is 50 less than minimum possible damage for Panther gun.

So having twice the rof means nothing when your enemie shoots three times as accurate with way higher damage per hit.

Wolf and Markr did a lot to reduce these "cheats" with improved reload times on tanks and AT guns, fixing damage values for US emplacment and HMG´s...a lot has been done already. But that turns back into some "old" kind of stuff like breaking things that already got fixed last year.

I mean really, there had been various ways to fix things (if fix was needed due to faction diversity and special tools US dont have to compensate for the weaker k98). Like dropping upgrade costs on Volks, dropping HMG42 cost, making LMG34 earlier available (the most apparent and best possible fix without messing up their rifle stats). But no... they changed their default stats into elite so that with later upgrades they become commando like forces. The LMG34 is a huge damage multiplier to the squad, Terror and esspecially def doc providing huge buffs later in the game. Rifle squads meanwhile stay pretty much at the same performance throughout the entire game and a single BAR is far away from being as effective as an single LMG34.

So tell me what you want, the way they try to solve the issue is breaking the game. They should have made LMG34 earlier available and dropping HMG42 cost. But not giving elite stats to a opening force that gets massives buffs in 2 out of 3 docs unlike the Rifles.


You keep saying stuff about mortar... You have the possibility to build a mortar at the start of the game with usa for god sake, WH in the other hand has to tech up to get his mortar, and if you're so afraid don't worry you still have the chance to pick certain doc to have a stronger mortar, whats so bad about starting usa mortar that has the possibility to use smoke and blow up the first hmg that WH does?



NO, again wrong. WH starts with 5 fuel more in basic game. So you can get the mortar as fourth unit or so without ever sending pios back to base for the building.

US has to "earn" more fuel, their second building cost more than WH HQ tec and the engis have to retreat to build it which is even more important as you lose an important build (sandbags) and repair unit. And you have to choose Inf doc right away. Other docs must wait till mortar HT.
I sometimes choosed Inf doc or had to only bc of the mortar which is just stupid.

You still have a shit ton of building options as usa pre-beta.


Which i must retreat to base to get second building to get the mortar. :roll:

As WH you only have one way to play it.


Lol. Its not. You can still use schwimms vs US without fearing facing AT rifles, you have HE pak, you can spam Volks and in High Res game getting even second building right away like US and PE can.


And in low res game this "one way" is superior to the "one way" US can do. US has no real options as aggressve rifle spam in low res game before WH fortifies with sandbags and bomb you with mortar.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby mofetagalactica » 16 Jul 2019, 17:12

Warhawks97 wrote:
NO, again wrong. WH starts with 5 fuel more in basic game. So you can get the mortar as fourth unit or so without ever sending pios back to base for the building.

US has to "earn" more fuel, their second building cost more than WH HQ tec and the engis have to retreat to build it which is even more important as you lose an important build (sandbags) and repair unit. And you have to choose Inf doc right away. Other docs must wait till mortar HT.
I sometimes choosed Inf doc or had to only bc of the mortar which is just stupid.


Dude, whats so bad about that mortar it has free smoke, and in 2v2 standard res games you can work up with your teammate and make a mortar right away with jeep or flame engineers, you already have the assaulting advantage if the enemy trenchs himself in a building.
I do have tried what you said about rushing wh mortar and is not as fast as you think while losing units in the front, you already loss time on building schim and pak, the only way to do it as 4th unit is that the enemy dosn't even attack you and if he gets an early mortar wich can get faster than u, then you will have to retreat.
Things dosn't always go as you plan, and taking in mind of standard res works, then it gets way more risky and random. Thats why you felt that if you haven't bleed ur enemy long enought in the early standard res start then you will be without advantage. Because thats what standar res is, rock-paper-scissor.

Im not just a high res player, usa mortar is pretty good and a must get tool in team games, since smoke is the most important tool for allied infantry, or can you tell me how many times have u seen axis players using smoke on non tank units?

We already have some points in common between what we have now and what not, and i do remember old garands you don't have to repeat yourself over and over.

I will support you on certain changes about kars, but not all of them.
-Volks and just volks kar accuracy reduction on distant-far ranges.
-Garands same distant range accuracy pre-beta.
-All infantry lmg's reworked tradding accuracy for *natural* supression.
-Pz3 III Own armor table values and reduction of turret rotation speed.


Also these experimental changes are based on the total of the game itself not just 1 particular thing its the overall of units in combat situations along all the game after having a shit ton of games played thats, these experimental changes are here to check how much this affect to the whole combat situation of mixed armies, the conclusion was that WH suffered too much to latest changes of 50 cal, pz4 lateness, mg42 nerf, nerfed at squad and only available at blitz doc.

This thing that you want on standard res is not possible, the only way to make something balanced with such res is to make pretty much copy paste of the starting units and same amount of res - upkeep for both factions. And working on counter units in standard res like adding a starting 81mm mortar fo usa will only make it more rock papper scissor.

There is no way to cover weaknesess with the starting amount of units that you're available to build.

And please play a few pvp's on the beta version, like it where a serious match, and see how the overall goes, then post the replays and explain why, im gonna start to record everygame i play on it and save it on my twitch channel so everyone can see it.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby kwok » 18 Jul 2019, 16:11

So for all people who have TESTED the game... a lot more changes have happened. Should we talk about how balanced those are? Or are we saying that the new emplacements and the tankhunter armor changes are perfectly balanced?

Still exploring how to make emplacements neutral. Doesn’t look hopeful though so if it can’t be done, are these emplacements still worth it?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby Warhawks97 » 18 Jul 2019, 19:13

kwok wrote:
Still exploring how to make emplacements neutral. Doesn’t look hopeful though so if it can’t be done, are these emplacements still worth it?



I like the system but emplacments that cant be captured can be game changing. I mean not to worry where to place an emplacment bc no one can cap it is ruins the aspect of placing emplacmants smart and to protect them.

Also the 100 MP empty instant build emplacmants can be used as sponge but also as deterence as the enemie might not have the time to check whether its filled with a weapon or not.

I have mixed feelings about it but ultimatley i would say that emplacmants need to be capturable. Also we would have to unify it for all factions and all emplacments to be uncapable.

Thats my point of view.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 18 Jul 2019, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Doctrine rework, update 3)

Postby MarKr » 18 Jul 2019, 19:25

I am not at home so I cannot check but I think that making the emplacements capturable should be easy, it was an oversight in the process of implementation.
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