5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby MarKr » 17 May 2019, 18:47

blacktigerace wrote:
MarKr wrote:me = no limit arty means, 105mm mortar is spamable?

Mar = The changelog says that the limit has been removed from static howitzers - these are the 105mm howitzers of Infantry and Defensive doctrine + 25 pounders in Artillery doctrine. Mortars are unchanged.
Exactly as I said - mortars are unchanged because the 107mm mortar emplacements never had any limit ;) .

I don't want to nag but could you keep change suggestions in another topic? Like the one I created for you ? Knight Cross and AI are not connected to changes in this patch.
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby blacktigerace » 17 May 2019, 19:11

MarKr wrote: Exactly as I said - mortars are unchanged because the 107mm mortar emplacements never had any limit ;) .

I don't want to nag but could you keep change suggestions in another topic? Knight Cross and AI are not connected to changes in this patch.


well, last time its have limit, max only 3x 105mm mortar in battle, now its spam able, or maybe its already changed in some patch long time ago? @@
ok ok, i will change it to that post

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Warhawks97 » 17 May 2019, 20:34

blacktigerace wrote:
MarKr wrote: Exactly as I said - mortars are unchanged because the 107mm mortar emplacements never had any limit ;) .

I don't want to nag but could you keep change suggestions in another topic? Knight Cross and AI are not connected to changes in this patch.


well, last time its have limit, max only 3x 105mm mortar in battle, now its spam able, or maybe its already changed in some patch long time ago? @@
ok ok, i will change it to that post



that thing cant move and costs a lot. Basically if you invest 400 MP and fuel into a mortar that cant move, your enemie can invest 400 MP or even less into an arty unit that deals with it.

Its not that thing is cheap or as any kind of superior HP pool or something.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby MarKr » 17 May 2019, 20:54

blacktigerace wrote:well, last time its have limit, max only 3x 105mm mortar in battle, now its spam able, or maybe its already changed in some patch long time ago?
I checked the game files and when BK was ported to Steam, the mortar emplacement alread had no limit. I could probably dig up some older files (like 4.8.x) to see if it was limited there but honestly I am too lazy :lol:

However BK is on Steam since November 2017 so mortar emplacements have been unlimited for at least over a year (but very likely a lot longer - I don't remeber them having a limit, to be honest).
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby MarKr » 17 May 2019, 21:29

Warhawks97 wrote:In summary my questions and thoughts:
1. Jumbos should all be armor doc, just that a global WSC upgrade turns all 75 jumbos into 76 with no option to turn it back in the game.
2. The stuh costs?
3. Stuh/105/scott limits sill in place?
4. Will scott/stuh/105 sherman fire just one shot at an emplacment which will likely survive a single hit?
5. When all WH docs got reworked, is it still necessary to keep stgs on grens? (which was more an emergency solution to compensate for lost kch)
6. Tank III N call in should come with a storm squad that has stgs.

Edit:
Oh, and any changes to jumbo armor? It still doesnt feel like "jumbo". Often killed by hetzers and stugs who still go through with every fourth hit. It should be a pretty hard match even for normal 88 guns.

1) We want to keep the reward choice in the Infantry doctrine, and also having the 76mm is problematic for the Jumbo+Pershing combo (even more so if the Jumbo get further armor buff. viz later).
2) StuH cost remained the same for now but costs of units and abilities can, and most likely will be changed based on feedback.
3) Yes, limits stay. Especially in combination with the following answer.
4) Yes, that is how it was intended. However, again, things can be adjusted according to feedback. The costs of the "long shot" abilities differ (StuPa is most expensive, StuH/Sherman in the middle, Scott currently the cheapest). One of the possible further tweaks would be to remove the costs completely because they already have ammo upkeep and need some spotting unit which costs further resources and efforts - in that case the limits would stay because free shooting over large with crapload of units is not really something we want (+ wouldn't it be cheaper to get an arty unit in such case anyway?). Or the costs could stay but it could work more like a "lock on" mode where they would keep shooting until the emplacement is destroyed, decrewed or until they lose vision on the target (in this case limits could still stay)...there are more options, we'll see what people report.
5) Most likely no. More on that in the next update.
6) We originally wanted to make it the way that the call in would start with Volks and StuGIII and when Grens become available it would give randomly Volks or Grens + StuG, when you unlock PIV H/J it would give randomly StuG or PIV and Volks or Grens ... so basically the list of possible units you could get with the call in would expand based on what is available to you in that moment in the game because it would be weird to have PIV through a call in when you cannot build them in your tank factory because you haven't unlocked them yet. We abandoned that idea because the random nature makes it hard to put some reasonable price on the ability. However, same way it would be weird to get Storms if you haven't unlocked them yet. We tried to make it at least the way that you Start with Grens and later when you unlock the Storms they would come with the call in but for some reason which I simply don't understand, the ability works in an extremely weird-ass way for no logical reason.
So in the end we decided to go with the Grenadiers every time - this way it won't happen that you would get Storms before you unlock them and at the same time it makes it impossible to bypass the limit on Stormtroope squads.
7) Jumbo armor got some buff against L48 guns. We're still not sure if we should increase the durability even further against stronger guns. It is one of the possibilities but it is not sure as of now.
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby blacktigerace » 18 May 2019, 01:38

MarKr wrote:
blacktigerace wrote:well, last time its have limit, max only 3x 105mm mortar in battle, now its spam able, or maybe its already changed in some patch long time ago?
I checked the game files and when BK was ported to Steam, the mortar emplacement alread had no limit. I could probably dig up some older files (like 4.8.x) to see if it was limited there but honestly I am too lazy :lol:

However BK is on Steam since November 2017 so mortar emplacements have been unlimited for at least over a year (but very likely a lot longer - I don't remeber them having a limit, to be honest).


i see... maybe just me playing your very old patch lol

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Viper » 19 May 2019, 01:56

many things were addressed by different people. but i want to come back at one thing in particular.....

it is normal to see somethings get overlooked. thats why it is "beta" and "experimental". but why do i find it very hard sometimes for the developers to acknowledge what that they have overlooked?

past/old example:
problem of the riflemen anti tank grenade. when it had no aim time and 60 range with light projectile speed.
it was fixed by lowering the range to 40 and adding aim time.....but this only happened after hundreds of topics about it. although it was a clear issue and easy to acknowledge.

new/current example:
so the one thing i want to address and give my opinion about is.....the tank commander offmap artillery barrage for armor doctrine.

this is not a normal artillery barrage, and now it only require 1 command point :?: lets compare it with infantry doctrine artillery barrage.......

infantry doctrine:
165 ammo. 9 strikes. random scatter.

armor doctrine:
75 ammo. 15 or more strikes :!: no scatter (will always hit the same spot and always direct hit)

i think it is a problem anyone can quickly speculate.
armor doctrine has significantly better arty barrage than infantry doctrine.....

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 19 May 2019, 07:10

Alright so I finally got to use the 105 Sherman and Jumbo for Armor Doctrine and here's a few things that stood out:

- The 105 Sherman and Jumbo Sherman gain no benefit from the cheaper production unlock for shermans that makes them cheaper (even though the ability says it makes 'ALL shermans cheaper to produce').

- 105 Sherman can't shoot at base structures unless you use the direct fire or attack ground near them (the 'fire at defenses' ability works against them though). In my case I was trying to make it shoot the Wehrmacht base structures and it would just move into them and not shoot at all; seems a bit weird.

- 105 sherman only has a 90° turret? I get the turret is kind of slow; but it would be useful to have a rotating turret that can be used to shoot side-ways when going back and forth behind a building.

- 105 sherman still has a limit of 1. Should be a limit of 2.

- You can bug the 'fire at defenses' thing to get multiple shots at something. Say you see a flak 20mm emplacement, you get in range to shoot it normally once; then use 'fire at defenses' and you shoot another 105 shot within the next 2 seconds; then you fire again a third time because when you use that ability your 105 reload resets. Resulting in 3 105 shots hitting the flak emplacement in 3-5 seconds. You can also bug this ability to let you get 'instant reloads' by using 'fire at defenses' then quickly cancelling the ability to get your 105 reloaded. I think it's the same thing with the other 'fire at defenses' abilities for the other tanks but I haven't checked yet.

MarKr wrote:7) Jumbo armor got some buff against L48 guns. We're still not sure if we should increase the durability even further against stronger guns. It is one of the possibilities but it is not sure as of now.


I've been thinking about the Jumbo's performance vs TD's with Panther Guns / AP rounds / and the Ambush penetration multiplier (+ damage). All those things together can translate into a dead Jumbo in one shot without the TD ever revealing itself. I didn't really care too much about Axis TD's having multiple ambush shots vs USA tanks because USA could always get an E8 which could survive like 3-5 shots from a Hetzer with over-repair + damage reductions from vet/tank commander. But now it's all kind of dicey; I could count on a Jumbo with over-repair at least surviving the first shot vs ambushed TD's but that's not a guarantee anymore.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Black Panther » 19 May 2019, 07:54

Black Panther wrote:Scott is firing with AP shells in regular mode, can't kill anything

Actually nvm, just tested it and scott seems to be OP, lolz.
But Slugger in Infantry doctrine has a pink square on tactical map (num0), as I believe together with a command panzer 4?

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Black Panther » 19 May 2019, 08:46

Also, sorry for double-post, I cannot find Jackson in Armor doctrine, despite activating it in a CP tree. There is a just empty space between Pershing and Hellcat in T4.
Maybe because I choosed Slugger for Infantry doctrine in reward menu?

edit: Yup, because of the reward option for infantry doc.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 19 May 2019, 10:04

Viper wrote:
infantry doctrine:
165 ammo. 9 strikes. random scatter.

armor doctrine:
75 ammo. 15 or more strikes :!: no scatter (will always hit the same spot and always direct hit)

i think it is a problem anyone can quickly speculate.
armor doctrine has significantly better arty barrage than infantry doctrine.....


Are they all identical/controversial by any ofthe rest criterias?
I mean, cool down timing, same dmg from shell hit.., tank crew member required? Unit in range required? Unit stuck for a few seconds to launch it maybe needed?

Prolly the command tank arty is the most important and rushed thing for Armor doc, unlike Arty brench is for Infantry doc also?

I think it is a topic, other tigahs..shush, people, can quickly speculate..

Though aside of all facting.

Is it happening somehow now? Does that become new arty jerk meta, or yet it's just another AB quad emplacement risk kind of topic?:P
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Warhawks97 » 19 May 2019, 12:25

Viper wrote:new/current example:
so the one thing i want to address and give my opinion about is.....the tank commander offmap artillery barrage for armor doctrine.

this is not a normal artillery barrage, and now it only require 1 command point :?: lets compare it with infantry doctrine artillery barrage.......

infantry doctrine:
165 ammo. 9 strikes. random scatter.

armor doctrine:
75 ammo. 15 or more strikes :!: no scatter (will always hit the same spot and always direct hit)

i think it is a problem anyone can quickly speculate.
armor doctrine has significantly better arty barrage than infantry doctrine.....




The armor doc requirments are different. You need at least tank depot and a stuart/chaffe and a tank commander to use it and you cant fire it anywhere. Inf doc can unlock it straight and support a push anywhere at the map without having units there and without having any kind of base building. So there is a fundamental difference. I mean someone can use a recon plane and you drop arty on a forward HQ or troop concentration without any physical presence or without having any MP investment.

So they are not comparable at all.



MenciusMoldbug wrote:Alright so I finally got to use the 105 Sherman and Jumbo for Armor Doctrine and here's a few things that stood out:

- The 105 Sherman and Jumbo Sherman gain no benefit from the cheaper production unlock for shermans that makes them cheaper (even though the ability says it makes 'ALL shermans cheaper to produce').


For the 105 i would say yes, Jumbo is somewhat special and was more rare. But at the end it depends on how it effects gameplay.
For late game usefullness i would make it cheaper since unlocking jumbo and mass production isnt in one line anymore.

- 105 Sherman can't shoot at base structures unless you use the direct fire or attack ground near them (the 'fire at defenses' ability works against them though). In my case I was trying to make it shoot the Wehrmacht base structures and it would just move into them and not shoot at all; seems a bit weird.


would be good to have buildings with units inside and trenches as target as well.

- 105 sherman only has a 90° turret? I get the turret is kind of slow; but it would be useful to have a rotating turret that can be used to shoot side-ways when going back and forth behind a building.

- 105 sherman still has a limit of 1. Should be a limit of 2.


fully agree.

- You can bug the 'fire at defenses' thing to get multiple shots at something. Say you see a flak 20mm emplacement, you get in range to shoot it normally once; then use 'fire at defenses' and you shoot another 105 shot within the next 2 seconds; then you fire again a third time because when you use that ability your 105 reload resets. Resulting in 3 105 shots hitting the flak emplacement in 3-5 seconds. You can also bug this ability to let you get 'instant reloads' by using 'fire at defenses' then quickly cancelling the ability to get your 105 reloaded. I think it's the same thing with the other 'fire at defenses' abilities for the other tanks but I haven't checked yet.


this bug can be exploited with other stuff as well. I think even with normal HE shells.
But also Tiger ALRS works this way and JP deadshot as well. Its related to reload time in the weapon file. Using such abilties gives the tank a new gun with new stats and the reload times there are often very low.
I managed to fix it for me iirc by changing the reload time listed in the ALRS weapons file.

MarKr wrote:I've been thinking about the Jumbo's performance vs TD's with Panther Guns / AP rounds / and the Ambush penetration multiplier (+ damage). All those things together can translate into a dead Jumbo in one shot without the TD ever revealing itself. I didn't really care too much about Axis TD's having multiple ambush shots vs USA tanks because USA could always get an E8 which could survive like 3-5 shots from a Hetzer with over-repair + damage reductions from vet/tank commander. But now it's all kind of dicey; I could count on a Jumbo with over-repair at least surviving the first shot vs ambushed TD's but that's not a guarantee anymore.



Lets put it simple, the Jumbo was the US equivalent to German Heavy tanks (e.g. KT) and CW´s churchill MK VII tanks. Its armor was brutally thick and slopped, even at the sides it was almost as thick as Tiger, at front even thicker and slopped.
It just hadnt the firepower of a KT so technically it would be some sort of KT with the firepower of a sherman.
And i dont see a reason why it couldnt act like it, the churchill MK VII does so as well and it works.
Perhaps as side information. In one instance a Jumbo bounced three flak 88 shots from 700 yards or even less before the fourht hit was a lucky one hitting one of the optical (periscope or whatever) on the turret roof the causing damage inside the turret.
In future doc reworks i assume that Tigers will become some sort of early game heavy tank similiar to churchill MK IV versions which means the Jumbo comes later than tigers. Thus 88´s could have some hard times killing such a jumbo. Heavier 88´s will probably be available anyway such as the Pak in def doc, Nashorn in SE and so on.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Black Panther » 19 May 2019, 12:33

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Alright so I finally got to use the 105 Sherman and Jumbo for Armor Doctrine and here's a few things that stood out:

- The 105 Sherman and Jumbo Sherman gain no benefit from the cheaper production unlock for shermans that makes them cheaper (even though the ability says it makes 'ALL shermans cheaper to produce').

- 105 Sherman can't shoot at base structures unless you use the direct fire or attack ground near them (the 'fire at defenses' ability works against them though). In my case I was trying to make it shoot the Wehrmacht base structures and it would just move into them and not shoot at all; seems a bit weird.

- 105 sherman still has a limit of 1. Should be a limit of 2.

Those shermans are special units, it wasn't before and shouldn't be now affected by mass production upgrade.

I tested 105 this morning and it was okay, but not any tanks shoot at the HQ building, if it has a non-revealed unit inside.

And about the limit, currently I find 105mm hotwizer shoots a bit of strong, with them you don't really need to go for Sherman HE. With that kind of tank, wipes now are more easier. Same with double scotts - more cost-effective, mobile and cheapier in any form, than Sherman HE, allowing you to rush the Sherman Jumbo 76mm, instead of 75mm previous patch. Making you actually look like more an early Armor doctrine.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby MarKr » 19 May 2019, 13:37

@Viper: The two are not as easily comparable, but others have managed to explain that before I got here to reply.

@MenciusMoldbug:
- We forgot to update the description on the unlock. It is not meant to lower the production cost of 105 and Jumbo Shermans.
- I'll have a look at the targeting of the 105 Sherman.
- I guess this would not really affect the gameplay but it is sort of double-edge, the rotation in full 360° takes forever for tanks with slow turret rotation so it is often faster to rotate the whole tank rather than just wait for the turret. However, if people want it, we can enable full rotation.
- Limit is intended to stay at 1 for now
- The "double shooting" will be fixed
- Further changes to Jumbo armor are possible but we're still discussing the details internally

@Black Panther:
- "OP" in what way? Too accurate? Deals too much damage? Can you give me some replay where I could see the OP performance in action?
- Jackson availability in Armor doc will be fixed

Thanks for problem reports to all of you ;)
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Black Panther » 19 May 2019, 14:18

Scott 400mp 30 fuel is more effective at AI, than a Sherman 410mp 40 Fuel 90 muni.
Fast, good damage with AoE, comes at T3.5. Maybe its less on damage, than Sherman (I don't know), but combining with it's speed and requiring no ammunition, it is a big save.
Sherman 75mm rarely used to counter any vehicles, due the high cooldown between AP and HE shots, plus acting bad against something better than a Pz F2.
Going into full AI Scott, that can also take down more than 50% health of halftracks in a one shot, seems like better choice now, if enemy won't decide to get a 75mm Puma or something like that.
I will get replay a bit later

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Viper » 20 May 2019, 13:44

MarKr wrote:@Viper: The two are not as easily comparable, but others have managed to explain that before I got here to reply.

it's just another buff to another click to kill ability. the "different requirements" don't mean too much when the activation range is 90.

Warhawks97 wrote:But also Tiger ALRS works this way and JP deadshot as well. Its related to reload time in the weapon file. Using such abilties gives the tank a new gun with new stats and the reload times there are often very low.

no, the alrs doesn't work the same way and cant be exploited to fire the gun twice.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 May 2019, 16:49

Viper wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:But also Tiger ALRS works this way and JP deadshot as well. Its related to reload time in the weapon file. Using such abilties gives the tank a new gun with new stats and the reload times there are often very low.

no, the alrs doesn't work the same way and cant be exploited to fire the gun twice.



It did. Havent used it in a long time but it was the case till 5. something.
I had to fix it myself. The reload time after ALRS or similiar abilties was like 2.x seconds, so you made the next shot right after it.

I exploited it with tigers or JP when i faced off an opponent that didnt die with first shot. I then used it to quickly get out 2 or 3 shots out. Normal shot, ALRS, normal shot.

Its simply bc the unit gets a "new weapon" each time and in these weapon files reload times are super short usually.
So dont tell me its not when i frequently used it whenever i got in a situation where i had such abilties avaialble. In the very past even AP rounds worked this way bc they didnt modify the normal gun stats but instead equiped the tank with a new gun with totally new stats.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Viper » 20 May 2019, 17:06

Warhawks97 wrote:It did. Havent used it in a long time but it was the case till 5. something.

yes, it did. but now it does not.
and it was fixed exactly on version 495 long time before bk mod comes to steam, you may recheck the changelog yourself.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Warhawks97 » 20 May 2019, 18:17

Viper wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:It did. Havent used it in a long time but it was the case till 5. something.

yes, it did. but now it does not.
and it was fixed exactly on version 495 long time before bk mod comes to steam, you may recheck the changelog yourself.


it added a delay before the shot. But still from what i can tell is that once you used it it shoots a normal shot again.

Perhaps someone would have to make a test game to clearify this.
But usually, when a unit "receives" a "new" weapon for the duration of an ability, reload times will be ignored.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Tiger1996 » 20 May 2019, 18:33

The current mechanism of ALRS abilities... Delay before the shot >>> and then "full gun reload" afterwards.
And the bad thing about it, is how it's going to reload even if you cancel the ability process.. but it's not a big deal anyway.
it's one of the abilities which I most use, and I can confirm that currently double-shooting is certainly not possible with it, ever since it was fixed.
I can remember it was a long story back then, and I even had so much talk with MarKr about it.. in the past, I mean.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 21 May 2019, 01:12

MarKr wrote:- I guess this would not really affect the gameplay but it is sort of double-edge, the rotation in full 360° takes forever for tanks with slow turret rotation so it is often faster to rotate the whole tank rather than just wait for the turret. However, if people want it, we can enable full rotation.


You can give it the 180° turret that the M10 kind of has. The M10 has a wider turret arc despite its turret being slower to turn horizontally than the 105's one. I just want it to have the ability to peek around obstacles to shoot at stuff instead of peeking around a obstacle, turning its body forward, then shooting. Which takes up more time than having the turret shoot sideways at stuff and then backing up behind an obstacle to reload to do it again if it can.

Also this Panther Ace is hard to distinguish between a normal Panther. I had two panthers one game grouped together and I literally could not tell which one was the Panther Ace because they both had the same veterancy; the only differentiating I could find was one was labelled Ausf. A, the other was Ausf. G. I think the Panther Ace needs that special minimap and unit icon that the Tiger Ace had to differentiate itself between other Tigers.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Black Panther » 21 May 2019, 07:06

1v1 game vs Kwok, totaly accidentaly I forgot to save previous games where I lost
Both Blitz vs Inf
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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby kwok » 21 May 2019, 13:29

Thanks for playing. I already messaged some of your thoughts to markr.

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 May 2019, 08:51

Bug:

Riflenade HE (USA inf) seems to be bugged it shoots a nade that flies slow and straight to where the enemy is sticking it to the closet surface and exploding (currently broken plz check).

WH 50mm AT : Using the 100 Muni missile triggers unpack time making the missile shoot after 4-5 seconds.

Balance:

Jumbo 76mm (USA inf) Production build too fast (not talking about unlocking or availability).

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Re: 5.1.8. beta (Doctrine rework, update 1)

Postby Black Panther » 22 May 2019, 11:17

Also, grenadiers that cames from blitz call-in has too fast replenishment rate


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