5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 21 Apr 2019, 09:29

The kwk L60 50mm of the panzer III is superior to the 75mm chaffe/M4 gun, it has also excellent mobilty with 80mm of frontal armor, so it is not « that bad »...
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Viper » 21 Apr 2019, 10:36

panzeriii ausf.m with 50mm gun should have similar reload speed as the stubby panzeriii ausf.n

and ausf.m should need at least 3 or 4 hits to kill normal sherman (i mean low damage) and average penetration.

the frontal armor should be similar to panzer.iv ausf.h but the health should be lower.

removal of stug4 late version from the call.in support means no td for blitzkrieg doctrine. but terror doctrine should have this stug4 as default td without veterancy requirement (but with cp unlock).

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Apr 2019, 10:44

@Mofeta:
PE uses the last Pz III model which got the stubby 75 mm gun the Tank IV D/E/F1 had. That was bc these two tanks switched roles in 42/43. The PZ III couldnt fit the long 75 mm gun and the 50 mm L/60 was actually outdated and couldnt beat sherman frontal armor, churchills and others (In BK the 50 mm is extremely powerfull however.) Thus Tank IV switched from infantry support role with its stubby 75 mm to anti tank roles while the PZ III took over its role.
The Tank III in BK doc would be different as it would be an M model with long 50 gun and not the N PE has with stubby 75 mm.


@Mefisto:
In BK Tank III use Tank IV armor type. And we all know how even 76 mm guns suck against them, the 75 mm even more so. The sherman with its 75 mm could beat tank III´s at so far any combat range at up to 700 meters or more quite easily, depending on Tank III version and if it had extra armor plates. The Tank III had, with added armor, up to 70 mm frontal armor. The 50 mm plates were face hardened armor with very high BHN value.
The sherman was superior in all regards whatsoever. The sherman with its 75 mm could beat the tank III before the tank III 50 mm gun could pen the frontal sherman armor.

In BK its going to be the other way arround. Since US 75 mm sucks so bad vs 50 mm armor (lke all the tank IV models with stubby gun) and even the 76 being shitty, the tank III will probably outclass the regular shermans since its 50 mm gun performs much better than US 75 mm sherman gun (although it was the other way arround in terms of penetration power).


@Panzerblitz:
Panzerblitz wrote:The kwk L60 50mm of the panzer III is superior to the 75mm chaffe/M4 gun, it has also excellent mobilty with 80mm of frontal armor, so it is not « that bad »...


its not. It also had no 80 mm. It had 50 mm armor with an added 20 mm armor plate. The 50 mm was FHA plate, the 20 mm was RHA plate.
The good thing was, as mentioned, the very high BHN value of german FHA armor which made the plate effectively 60 mm thick.
The mobility and stability also started to suffer with these many armor upgrades. They had to add 50 mm armor plate at the rear just in order to counter balance the massive added weight at the front. As the late tank IV´s the tank III started to suffer from armor upgrades, bigger guns and general weight increase. The Panther was probably the only german tank that always kept within its planned capabilties and weight without overtaxing the general design.

And the 50 mm gun wasnt that good, and the germans knew that and quickly started with the production of the successor gun: the 75 mm Pak 40 and later KwK 40 for the tanks.
In the english wikipedia, the pen stats of the 50 mm gun is overrated with 79 and 62 mm pen at 500/1000 meter at 30 degree. Its more likely 59 and 47 mm against RHA armor.
So it had big trouble with frontal sherman armor (the M4A1 had however issues with its cast armor and weak spots), churchills and other tanks. The 75 mm was superior in most cases.

As i see it the PZ III should be so far the very first medium tank available in the game, before shermans etc. Perhaps we can get it as a standard tank for BK doc as a producable tank and also comming as call in verision with grenadiers.
But i am scared that this tank will outclass shermans due to overrated 50 mm guns and underrated 75/76 mm guns.

The best would be to have an own Tank III target table since the tank III would have better armor protection as a regular Tank IV, but slightly less than a tank IV H/J.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 21 Apr 2019, 11:03

Panzer III L Gun was excellent for its time, in North Africa according allies report, the Panzer III L was highly destructive on any allies tanks at long range, including the Matilda frontal armor.
The Panzer III had reach its own gun limits in Russia for sure.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 21 Apr 2019, 12:49

Panzerblitz1 wrote:Panzer III L Gun was excellent for its time, in North Africa according allies report, the Panzer III L was highly destructive on any allies tanks at long range, including the Matilda frontal armor. The Panzer III had reach its own gun limits in Russia for sure


largely depending on sources. The T34 is a huge debate. But the 50 mm had more trouble with shermans frontal armor as with t34 early models. T34 early versions werent as good. Detailed reports about kills at the eastern front also showed, that the majority of t34 in 41/42 were destroyed by 50 mm Paks. On paper T34 looked good but lacked armor plate quality in the early versions which first later got fixed.
The Majority of allied tanks in north africa against which the Tank III fought were the lighter tanks such as crusaders and valentines with just 2 pdr guns and three men crew.

The Lexikon of the Werhmacht is stating 60 mm armor pen (90 degree) at 500 meters and even 95 mm with PzGr.40. The matilda is listed with 78 mm of armor and doesnt have the best design. The frontal armor of a sherman was better than that of matilda due to the angel. The Matilda had in return better side armor.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 21 Apr 2019, 15:34

Panzerblitz1 wrote:The kwk L60 50mm of the panzer III is superior to the 75mm chaffe/M4 gun, it has also excellent mobilty with 80mm of frontal armor, so it is not « that bad »...

No chance vs any medium tanks.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 21 Apr 2019, 23:12

MEFISTO wrote:
Panzerblitz1 wrote:The kwk L60 50mm of the panzer III is superior to the 75mm chaffe/M4 gun, it has also excellent mobilty with 80mm of frontal armor, so it is not « that bad »...

No chance vs any medium tanks.


According to you? Even the puma in normandy was lethal on allies mediums tanks, your statement is just pure fantasy.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Apr 2019, 00:34

MEFISTO wrote:
Panzerblitz1 wrote:The kwk L60 50mm of the panzer III is superior to the 75mm chaffe/M4 gun, it has also excellent mobilty with 80mm of frontal armor, so it is not « that bad »...

No chance vs any medium tanks.


If the Tank III with 50 mm gun gets the stats of the pak 38 (which is likely) and Panzer IV armor, the Tank III will beat shermans.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 22 Apr 2019, 01:35

Of course the 50mm L60 will beat a sherman, BUT, the sherman will have more survability at long term.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Apr 2019, 03:40

Panzerblitz1 wrote:Of course the 50mm L60 will beat a sherman, BUT, the sherman will have more survability at long term.


You are refering to BK mod gameplay or reality?

In reality it wasnt the case. When the sherman saw first combat in oktober 42, the production of the L model already ceased. the last few with 50 mm gun of the M model were build arround that time. So basically the sherman was already playing in another class.

The 50 mm was simply not up for the task to beat sherman frontal armor. And no matter if you play men of war, Post scriptum or war thunder or whatever, or even IL2 series which got the new sherman, these tank frontal armor was good enough to even bounce numerous 75 mm L/43 and L/48 shots from ranges of 700 meters and more.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Apr 2019, 05:19

Warhawks97 wrote:
Panzerblitz1 wrote:Of course the 50mm L60 will beat a sherman, BUT, the sherman will have more survability at long term.


You are refering to BK mod gameplay or reality?

In reality it wasnt the case. When the sherman saw first combat in oktober 42, the production of the L model already ceased. the last few with 50 mm gun of the M model were build arround that time. So basically the sherman was already playing in another class.

The 50 mm was simply not up for the task to beat sherman frontal armor. And no matter if you play men of war, Post scriptum or war thunder or whatever, or even IL2 series which got the new sherman, these tank frontal armor was good enough to even bounce numerous 75 mm L/43 and L/48 shots from ranges of 700 meters and more.


he's obviously talking about bk gameplay like i was talking about where the pz3m has magical 50mm cannon cappable of destroying 75mm shermans easily, his armor can somehow even bounce 76mm shermans lmao. But yeah everyone knows that pz3 and pz4 has to have overpowered armor compared to reality or everyone will be crying about it.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 22 Apr 2019, 09:20

The puma and the panzer 3 in real was deadly versus shermans at close range and side shots, we can use his great speed and mobility in bk, after frontally its more tricky for them for sure.
The first Panzer IV F and G 75mm replaced the panzer III’s bit by bit in Africa due to its penetration capability.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Apr 2019, 13:06

Panzerblitz1 wrote:The puma and the panzer 3 in real was deadly versus shermans at close range and side shots, we can use his great speed and mobility in bk, after frontally its more tricky for them for sure.


We dont need to use speed and side shots. A Tank that has Panzer IV armor and Pak 38 pen values can easily fight against shermans at long range in BK. 100% reverted reality.


I am still wondering where Panzer III will be. The current PZ IV versions with 50 mm armor (stubby versions and F2) can easily withstand shermans 75 mm gun and can even stand the 76 mm guns pretty well. Thats already frustrating to see. The Panzer IV H/J with 80 mm armor do so even better with great chances to bounce even the 76 mm guns.
Now the PZ III versions we talk about have 70 to 80 mm of armor at front. Thus they would be even better than early PZ III models and more close to Pz IV H/J tanks in terms of armor. And we wont have a PZ III armor table, only PZ Iv and PZ IV skirts. If that is going to happen, things might get ugly. We will see just another mini Tiger with a 50 mm gun that goes head on even against 76 shermans. That means we talk about a 1940/41 (and 42) tank which has reached it maximum capacities at that time which will be able to fight tanks that came out 2-3 years later. At that point people might wonder why germany didnt just ramp up Tank III production instead of replacing it with Panzer IV and Panthers.
The game might become just too ridiculous

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 22 Apr 2019, 21:03

Aside of all this facting.

What's the issue of PZ3 being potentially weaker to Sherman, either 75 or 76?

It is supposed to be an early progress unit for pushing and rush support, not even every player tech that early to TD and so on to counter it.
More to say, there are tons of units to help kill sherman in case, alike shreks and paks. It's not meant to be 1 unit army.

I'm literally cant see a problem here, if u feel like opponent is capable/going to rely on heavier tanks, why not making something else, either than what u'd used counter it with before?

Nonetheless, pz3 will be a comfort early to mid game unit with its state of things even now.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 22 Apr 2019, 21:37

idliketoplaybetter wrote:Aside of all this facting.

What's the issue of PZ3 being potentially weaker to Sherman, either 75 or 76?

It is supposed to be an early progress unit for pushing and rush support, not even every player tech that early to TD and so on to counter it.
More to say, there are tons of units to help kill sherman in case, alike shreks and paks. It's not meant to be 1 unit army.

I'm literally cant see a problem here, if u feel like opponent is capable/going to rely on heavier tanks, why not making something else, either than what u'd used counter it with before?

Nonetheless, pz3 will be a comfort early to mid game unit with its state of things even now.

I am agree but what is the problem with the (Call in) in the current patch? you need 5cp to have it, by that moment you should have 76mm AT gun or TH, m10 etc... so what's the problem here then??????

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 22 Apr 2019, 21:48

Yet people are using Call-ins now. Even more to say, i've seen more pz4-stug into Stuh for this month, than i've ever seen before after years of bkmod.

76mm can't stand pz4 HE/STUH long shot or leig/mortar anyway. Its a more less proper gameplay.

Future patch call-in should be even cheaper and different, it will effect game but not change spammers logic anyway.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 22 Apr 2019, 22:19

Let me tell you something, usually when you decide to play BK dock and you are facing an Armor doctrine (normal counter for this doctrine) suppose you decide to go for your call in and spend 5cp by that moment your opponent for the same CP amount have either Pershings (nothing to do) or cheaper shermans 76 with TH camouflage M10 or Hellcat and with 1 more cp Jacsons and I don't wanna talk about 76 AT gun very effective vs PIV stugs etc..(It is fine) also if you go for your Call in, after that you should run for your heavy tanks 4 CP more, by that time your enemy armor guy could have the SP and you a weak tiger. but you should know that right, what I am telling you is this Call In is not as OP as you say actually you probably will louse your game VS a good player after spend your 5cp in a Call In, that why this doctrine is weak at some point.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 22 Apr 2019, 22:51

Im not sure if u are even reading what ive said.

First of all, where did i put my words even remotely close to being understood as "Blitz doc call-in is OP"?

You compare doctrine to doctrine? is it 1v1 or what? Any luftwaffe or Def doc/88's around to get those early Pershings off? Henshels arent there too, i think. Maybe you were properly assisting Terror doc for that KT to come out? any Pak43? Stuka arty that kills SP in few rockets? def doc arty for 200mm? Shall i even speak of Hetzers?
Hmmm, u are prolly talking of 1v1
BK doc is one of the most powerfull docs yet even now for early game, though it doesnt mean that a better player with a proper doc choice and luck is not capable of beating it.
Call in doesnt cost any fuel, u simply bank it for future Tech up and whatsoever. Tiger's are even cheaper now.

Second thing, im exclusively referring to the thread topic. BKdoc is being changed, along with Armor doc too. I was also talking mostly about the player logic who are thinking bkdoc is what its not.
And spamming or/else trying to use units not the way they are more effective, or, not using 90% of units at all.

What do i know, prolly im yet the worst left player of all here.

p.s i wouldnt even say im arquing point u guys are saying here, its just i think u are using damn stupid and weak arguments that lead u all for even more weird conclusions. and there is no need to use this "ironic haha tone" when u make a statement to something. makes it all look even weaker.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 23 Apr 2019, 00:32

I am not talking to you in an "ironic haha tone" and my argument is not weak, we were talking about BK dock call in. I will cite your words: "What's the issue of PZ3 being potentially weaker to Sherman, either 75 or 76?/ there are tons of units to help kill sherman in case, alike shreks and paks. It's not meant to be 1 unit army" ,And I said "I am agree but what is the problem with the (Call in) in the current patch? you need 5cp to have it, by that moment you should have 76mm AT gun or TH, m10 etc... so what's the problem here then??????" each doctrine have strongest and weakness bk should have strong medium game but weak late game or at less as strong Terror or defensive and get a bit stronger vs emplacement that's it. And sorry if I offend to you at any point, I apologize.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Apr 2019, 08:46

MEFISTO wrote:I am not talking to you in an "ironic haha tone" and my argument is not weak, we were talking about BK dock call in. I will cite your words: "What's the issue of PZ3 being potentially weaker to Sherman, either 75 or 76?

Thats my point, too.

Thing is BK doesnt have its own Panzer III target table, so it either gets normal Panzer IV target table (50 mm armor variant) which is already very good vs 75 mm sherman guns and even 76 mm guns, or it gets the same received penetration modifier of 0.8 like the PZ IV H/J version in order to reflect the 80 mm thick frontal armor. If this is going to happen, then the Panzer III will be potentially superior to 76 shermans and even able to go 1 on 1 on them. The reason for that is that all US guns are shit vs axis medium armor (the 75 mm is very shitty vs 50 mm armor, the 76 is shitty vs 50 mm armor and very shitty vs the 80 mm armor). The PZ III chance to pen an easy eight sherman might be as high as the chance for the 76 sherman is to pen the Tank III. Considering that the PZ III (as well as all the stugs) will (or going to be) the first available tanks available, while the 76 sherman is the "max tec" tank available for 2 out of 3 US docs, i would argue that this will be a horryfing scenario.

I like the idea of PZ III in game.
I would perhaps even make them a 0 CP costing tank on axis side for several doctrines. But we would need some armor and gun stats reworks before.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 23 Apr 2019, 10:00

When i reminded about Pz3 for reworked Blitz doc, i was thinking of something cheaper and/or easier accessable (maybe even from T2), to counter m8/stand 37-57mm atguns and support infantry, BUT with potential of future, if that is even needed, upgrades for gun and armor plate.

So you get it available for t2, for reasonable price between Puma and i dunno, what standart p4 cost and u go. With t3 tech upgrade u get access for upgrades.

Mefisto said that PZ3 has (would have) no chances against medium tanks.

Does it suppose to fight medium tanks reasonably well at all?
Does the majority of people even rush for Medium tanks at all?
Is there any other way to kill tank aside of TD (stug4/pz4) at all?

I think, either pz3 will come out from Call in group or t2-t3, it should be cheaper and fight the light armor. Potentially id give it some kind of aura for infantry support.

That is what i feel is the key issue even now. Medium game phase/light armor usage.., though this issue imo, lies not between the stats of tank to tank comparision, but fact that u have to rush for 75 sherman HE to fight Lufts, just as example.
And light vehicle (aside of maybe long forgotten Scott and Quad), are not capable of support enough.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Apr 2019, 14:06

idliketoplaybetter wrote:When i reminded about Pz3 for reworked Blitz doc, i was thinking of something cheaper and/or easier accessable (maybe even from T2), to counter m8/stand 37-57mm atguns and support infantry, BUT with potential of future, if that is even needed, upgrades for gun and armor plate.


There have been many Tank III models. From A to N (there was no K model) with E model being first series production model. They started with 37 mm gun and 30 mm armor and ended up with almost 80 mm armor and 50 mm gun, later stubby 75 mm gun for infantry support (thats the version PE SE doc has)

We here speak about the L or M model here. Those had 80 mm armor and 50 mm gun like the pak 38. Thus its armor performance would be similiar to Tank IV H/J.
BK doc does not have any own PZ III target table so its likely that the tank receives Panzer IV armor (being either as good as the PZ IV F and E versions of even as good as H/J version). And the gun is likely to get pak 38 stats. That means even if its intended to deal with stuff like light tanks, smaller AT guns and enemie vehicles, it might be able to deal even with easy eight shermans in 1 vs 1 engagments. And that cant be changed unless we rework tank IV´s as well (bc both share same target table) which have overrated armor anyway.

Tricky situation.



Mefisto said that PZ3 has (would have) no chances against medium tanks.


based on what i said already, it wont be true. Tank IV H/J armor stats pared with pak 38 gun stats will pose a threat to any allied tank below jumbo.

Does it suppose to fight medium tanks reasonably well at all?


version based. It also depends what kind of medium tank. Crusader tanks it faced in nort afrcia? Yes
Shermans? Actually not.


Does the majority of people even rush for Medium tanks at all?

Not so much i would say. Except stugs.


Is there any other way to kill tank aside of TD (stug4/pz4) at all?


Anti tank guns, schrecks/zooks...



I think, either pz3 will come out from Call in group or t2-t3, it should be cheaper and fight the light armor. Potentially id give it some kind of aura for infantry support.


Again, based on the stats its likely to get, you will be able to beat even the best sherman variants except jumbo.

That is what i feel is the key issue even now. Medium game phase/light armor usage.., though this issue imo, lies not between the stats of tank to tank comparision, but fact that u have to rush for 75 sherman HE to fight Lufts, just as example.
And light vehicle (aside of maybe long forgotten Scott and Quad), are not capable of support enough.


True, and infantry anti tank rifles that can do a short job of any vehicle just like that, with a single "snip" of a finger doesnt makes it better for vehicles.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 23 Apr 2019, 15:26

Hey guys this is off topic, but check it and help with this please: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3225
Thank you.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 24 Apr 2019, 16:28

Warhawks97 wrote: BK doc does not have any own PZ III target table so its likely that..


Then changes wont have any effect, neither on offmap group "unit and timing" balance or playstyles.

IF pz3 could be something like Chaffy for US, or Stag for CW, that would be cool.

I remember cool old Blitz doc system from Vcoh, where you could get different Offmap groups for different time with later CP upgrading.

Funny thing is that i dont even think OFFmap group brench of current bkdoc is somewhat "useless".

Whatever they think it is "pricy" in CP and units are outtimed, people are using and winning/holding games for other docs to open up anyway.

What i find absurde about all this, is that no one is talking about thigns that arent used.

BlitzHalftruck.
Upgrades for Storms are unlikeble to go for early.
90% of the doc is not in use. Not even because its bad, but because NO ONE NEEDS IT.

Players spam offmapsgroups and cry, spam offmap groups and cry again..and again.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Apr 2019, 21:09

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
BlitzHalftruck.


what?
For me it was core unit. In all long lasting games that couldnt be finished with tank IV´s, this thing was a must have, let alone for the storm leader squad.

Upgrades for Storms are unlikeble to go for early.

few require HQ upgrade first but generally they get bought, perhaps not early on.

90% of the doc is not in use. Not even because its bad, but because NO ONE NEEDS IT.

Players spam offmapsgroups and cry, spam offmap groups and cry again..and again.
[/quote]

1. Thats the case with most docs, if not all. The Majortity uses only parts of the docs. Like in armor doc all rush for pershings, i love the war machinerty branch since it gives me free ammo at the end for all my shermans, thats lots of ammo spared for other stuff.
2. Calling this off map is simply easy and you get fairly good stuff. If you get a stug IV late model with vet 1 at default and camo, you have almost won the game already. Thats one thing i hoped for to get in the first call in i made.
3. People like being brain dead and repeating stuff over and over again. And to be honest, this call in is just beatifull. A few CP spend but in return lots of fuel and ammo saved.


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