5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Apr 2019, 12:48

Pz 3 sounds good, just which one, early model with 37 mm gun, 50 mm, longer 50 mm or late version with 75 mm stubby when tank III took the role over from Tank IV E (infantry support role)?
And do we have a Tank III model with 50 mm gun?


Also, kwok, generally i liked the idea you had for your coh 2 mod which was to more or less the removal of tiers.
For BK i would prefer a similiar approach. I already suggested a more flexible tec designs and unit unlock, similiar to vcoh. Like if i want tanks, why am i forced to go slowly all the way over vehicles, light tanks and so on.

Now you want to extend the time people have to spend at each tier. That largely helps those who are good with inf and early vehicles, while lots of others will suffer.


I would take a look at how vcoh did it with building requirments and which building contained what. It has lots of nice stuff. EG in vcoh i liked how i could get from HQ upgrade to the next one untill i reached the tec i wanted without building each building first. So it was more a players decision to risk losing the early stages by skipping to tanks.

What i also liked in vcoh was the way how axis buildings were named and what they contained. For example ive never understood why WH has two tank factories in BK, one for heavies and one for mediums. The third building for WH should generally be offensively orientated and helping aggressive players (Rocket artillery, stugs, stuh, Pumas and in case Tank III comes it should be there. It was therefor named "Assault Weaponary") while the second is more logistical support and defensively orientated with all the Halftracks and AT guns. The fourth building would contain all tanks, Tank IV, Panther, Tiger and so on.
Players who then want to play aggressive could jump to third building if they feel the fuel is enough without building the second building first of which they wont get any use.


Same for US (and also PE to some extend). Why am i forced to build a building that provides just upgrades (and perhaps unlocks a unit) when i want to get lets say vehicles.
US also needs more freedom for its supply yard. Lots of WH/PE players play only with inf for a long time and having just two buildings up for the most part of the game and spammng inf. A US inf player (AB or inf doc) cant stand against it with own inf due to upkeep and is thus forced to tier almost till end just to get supply yard. Those who focus just on inf for a long time shouldnt get forced to tec for tanks when they dont play with vehicles or tanks at all for the most part.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 08 Apr 2019, 13:14

Warhawks97 wrote:US also needs more freedom for its supply yard. Lots of WH/PE players play only with inf for a long time and having just two buildings up for the most part of the game and spammng inf. A US inf player (AB or inf doc) cant stand against it with own inf due to upkeep and is thus forced to tier almost till end just to get supply yard. Those who focus just on inf for a long time shouldnt get forced to tec for tanks when they dont play with vehicles or tanks at all for the most part.

Agree. Why PE can straight away get HGRENS, while doing same for rangers, requires supply yard just to make any use of it?
Also, I really hope that WH, US and CW will get their inf command squads with more men in it, just like PE that basically have 3-men assault group with good aura buffs.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Viper » 08 Apr 2019, 14:55

Warhawks97 wrote:Pz 3 sounds good, just which one, early model with 37 mm gun, 50 mm, longer 50 mm or late version with 75 mm stubby when tank III took the role over from Tank IV E (infantry support role)?
And do we have a Tank III model with 50 mm gun?

yes. there is fully working model of panzer.iii ausf.m with quick firing long barrel 50mm cannon.

and if panzer3 will be added to blitzkrieg doctrine....i think it is best represented in the offmap battlegroup.
so instead of calling stug or panzer.iv. panzer3 will be always called in from off map with storms, grenadiers or volks. the offmap will be less op like this. and at the same time something new.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 08 Apr 2019, 17:46

Viper wrote:
Warhawks97 wrote:Pz 3 sounds good, just which one, early model with 37 mm gun, 50 mm, longer 50 mm or late version with 75 mm stubby when tank III took the role over from Tank IV E (infantry support role)?
And do we have a Tank III model with 50 mm gun?

yes. there is fully working model of panzer.iii ausf.m with quick firing long barrel 50mm cannon.

and if panzer3 will be added to blitzkrieg doctrine....i think it is best represented in the offmap battlegroup.
so instead of calling stug or panzer.iv. panzer3 will be always called in from off map with storms, grenadiers or volks. the offmap will be less op like this. and at the same time something new.



nice.

and i fully agree.

After that the next step is to remove the Pz IV D that gets penetrated by all 37 mm guns and even cal 50 and instead add the PZ IV F1 or E model with better armor. That way one combination can be to call in Pz III with 50 mm gun and infantry support (which should be Grens with lmg42), then going PZ IV mass production for cheap stubby tank IV support with its good HE rounds.....
If Stuka would then be earlier available and that AP round upgrade replaced by HE round upgrade to spare the 90 ammo for each Tank IV HE upgrade.... that can then be used for stuka planes and Blitzkrieg ability instead.... wow, that would be just awesome with epic mid game combinations of early Tank III and inf call in, early Stubby Tank IV support with HE loaded at default and the ammo spared from HE upgrade and call in used for early Blitzkrieg ability and stuka. Real Blitzkrieg style.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Tiger1996 » 10 Apr 2019, 02:45

Ya, I think Viper keeps bringing the best ideas here.

I also agree that off-map support would no longer provide any Pz4 or Stugs, but only Pz3.M if it's added. At this point tough, the off-map support could remain available only after 3 Command Points, as there would be no need to delay it! However, it's still necessary to be separated from the tank line.
And I also agree that Pz4.D should be replaced with Pz4.E or F1 in Blitz doctrine...

Previously, the idea of replacing the AP ammo unlock with LeiG.18 also makes best sense.. or Maultier should require CP unlock instead.
Eventually the LeiG.18 would be available exceptionally for Blitz doc as soon as it's picked, and no longer a reward to anything.

Been testing the beta a lot recently, and I actually started to admire the command Pz4 tank...
As a side note... I noticed that "flashing white icon" would appear above nearby tanks when they are in range of the command tank aura even when no abilities are active, but the US Command car has this visible on nearby tanks ONLY when some ability is active.. so, I was thinking; maybe the US Command car should apply this flashing white icon permanently as well? it would be easier to recognize which tanks are getting affected.

Most importantly, the Stupa shouldn't be buffed by the command tank...
Also, it might be worth testing to implement slower shell speed with tracers for Stupa and Stuh, as mentioned before.. performing "loop" shots.

Furthermore, perhaps Stug3 shouldn't be reward of Stug4 anymore.. so, Blitz doc would only have access to Stug3 tanks.
Stug4 (both late and early versions) would be available in Terror as pure tank hunters which camo by default, so no longer requiring vet1 to camo.
Eventually the HE rounds could be disabled when camo mode is activated... There was once a very huge topic about this few months ago, btw.

Lastly, the WH AT squad really needs camo or at least 65 basic range again.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Viper » 10 Apr 2019, 11:35

i like the idea to make leig18 in blitzkrieg doctrine for 0 command point and replace ap ammo unlock with maultier unlock. but should not be more than 2cp. there is too many things which can fit in the tech tree in replace of the ap ammo unlock.

at least 5 different ideas were told. leig18, maultier, booby traps, smoke barrage, or high explosive rounds.

about stug4 in terror.
the late version could have camo but no high explosive.
the early version could have high explosive but no camo.
just another idea.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Diablo » 10 Apr 2019, 22:36

I love how you people keep coming back to amaze me! Enjoying the allround new feel to the Doctrine.
I like how the mobile Panther is now the workhorse, Tiger really didn't fit in here. Regarding that call-in Panther; is it supposed to be (what CoH calls) an Ace or just a vetted Panther G? Either way i'd love for it to have a little ability to stand out a bit. Nothing grand but you know, a little something =)

All in all, my thanks to the whole BK Staff for the continued hard work, you guys rock. \m/

PS: Just checked; description indicates both "Ace" and "experienced crew" yet neither tank nor commander is vetted

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 11 Apr 2019, 15:50

Diablo wrote:Regarding that call-in Panther; is it supposed to be (what CoH calls) an Ace or just a vetted Panther G?
It has a bit better basic stats and comes with a tank commander (who provides further bonuses).
Image

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Viper » 12 Apr 2019, 10:30

arent ace units supposed to have 1 veterancy level and 2 levels for the tank commander?

and what is the developers opinion about reworking the offmap support to provide panzer.iii ausf.m and separate it from tank line unlocks?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby kwok » 12 Apr 2019, 16:48

we are debugging the off map support to provide the panzer iii. as of now, it is still within the tank line of unlocks.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby CGarr » 13 Apr 2019, 03:56

From what I've seen of the blitz rework, i think the command panzer is going to be my new favorite unit in the game since it won't feel as useless and passive as the brit one and isn't fragile like the US command car. I've got a few suggestions that I feel would make this unit (and possibly its allied counterparts) a staple of blitz doc play, but I listed those below in the 4th paragraph alongside some other low priority changes / implementations that'd be interesting to see after more pressing issues are addressed.

Moving to using only panthers is a good change for blitz, makes more sense for the doc with their better mobility, plays less like an area denial tank (tiger 1 or 2, heavy TD's) and more like a good offensive tool because they're relatively cheap and I can poke in and out with them quickly but they still have enough armor and firepower to be relevant late game, might even beat pershing if with the range upgrade from the command panzer. Stupa makes a lot of sense on blitz, I tried them out recently in defensive doc and I feel like they'd be right at home with Blitz doc's more offensive focus. With the stupa alongside storms, blitz should be well armed to deal with dug in positions.

Blitz already had enough access to arty to deal with the occasional camo AT gun without being strong enough to just dominate through arty (i'd assume its possible with the werfers but prob not recommended), but I see the stuka dive bomb as a welcome addition for dealing with hardpoints, especially given Blitz doc's extra scouting options. Its a strong enough tool to push against dug in opposition but it isn't going to stop an enemy push unless its used on a bridge or something, which makes sense because defensive play shouldn't be blitz doc's strong suit and that role can be fulfilled by other axis docs anyways if a strong passive defense is needed. The divebomb doesn't allow blitz to have overwhelming fire superiority like Arty or SE, but it does present a new way of dealing with players who tend to play statically on a doc that didn't previously have a means for doing so, and with the new focus on making all docs competitive in 1V1 (not necessarily what I would've picked but it's what the community voted for) it makes sense.

Only thing I might suggest is maybe adding a big quick-dispersing CAS smoke drop that can be called in on fog of war as a cheaper alternative to the normal divebomb. That isn't 100% neccesary as of now though, I'd rather see the attention put into the other docs for now, just something to think about for the future. Another suggestion would be something similar to the brit command tank in Wikinger's ability to call in a recon plane patrol which circles overhead and surveys an area for an extended period of time provided it isn't shot down, I found myself using the command tank a lot for coordinating offensive maneuvers with people in Wikinger, it'd go really well with the new command panzer but it's not a high priority addition, the new Blitz doc as it has been presented is fine.

Again, cant stress enough how good an addition I feel the command panzer will be, I hope the brit one gets reworked to behave the same way (at least on RE doc) with the selectable abilities and I'm happy to hear that wehr will have a good high-pressure offensive doctrine because sitting behind heavies/heavy TD's and arty was getting boring and PE feels gross to play because of all the cheesy shit they currently have.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Viper » 13 Apr 2019, 12:40

kwok wrote:we are debugging the off map support to provide the panzer iii. as of now, it is still within the tank line of unlocks.

ok but i think you should separate it later.
and remember the stug4 late version model is only available in the offmap support. so if the offmap support will not provide stugs anymore, it means this late version unit is removed from the game. so later you will need to allow access to the late version model of stug4 somewhere else, for example terror.

and from the 5 ideas about the ap unlock. i recommend you choose to make maultier cost command points.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Apr 2019, 13:03

Viper wrote:and from the 5 ideas about the ap unlock. i recommend you choose to make maultier cost command points.


Maultier and HE rounds as unlock are my favorits. HE rounds in the tank IV mass prod line so that stubby tank IV´s would really become usefull in an early game along with stug III´s which consume most ammo with more expensive HE round upgrades. The spared ammo here can be used for abilities such as Blitzkrieg ability.

If Maultier will be the unlock it should then be unlocked later and perhaps linked to the bottom line rather than with the tank IV mass production.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby kwok » 13 Apr 2019, 16:24

i finally got around to REALLY playing pvp with the new blitz doc. i did a lot of testing before it was released to the beta of course, but it's different playing against many kinds of humans.

i honestly feel like have the panzer 4 be at least 3CP for an unlock and the panther at least 6CP is helpful to the game. the game felt less about teching up as fast as possible and it put some weight into unlocking units per situation. This really did open up a lot more units on the field, the mid game was extended quite a bit. i saw more greyhounds, more pumas, more halftracks, more infantry, even a stuart in one game (which was a smart move to counter the pumas! who knew people would actually be adventurous and try something outside of the meta). i won games i lost games.
I was facing against an armor doc and i actually unlocked the stormtroopers before the panzer BECAUSE i knew i could make some trades if i invested in a stronger earlier game to help me out in the later game.
But, i understand why it feels SOOOooo painful to have the panzer 4 unlock so late. it just breaks formulas. However, that is kind of a by product of reworks and the essense of well-rounded doctrines... the doctrine reworks is kind of meant to break formulas. Because now you have a greater more comprehensive assortment of tools to apply, so there's some skill in deciding when to unlock what depending on situations.

so there are definitely areas of improvement in terms of how tanks are unlocked, i can see that now. but i would definitely rather see other ideas rather than moving panzers to unlock earlier. And definitely panthers unlocking earlier. I like the fact that I felt like I needed to get stugs and couldn't just rely on sitting back behind my pak guns.

i also want to make sure... again are you all SURE that not having free AP rounds is a good idea?
i want to know how you think blitz doc will plan to deal with armor doc late game, even in today's patch without armor doc reworks in mind. can blitz doc reliably fight jumbos? can blitz doc reliably fight against pershings?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 13 Apr 2019, 17:16

kwok wrote:i honestly feel like have the panzer 4 be at least 3CP for an unlock and the panther at least 6CP is helpful to the game. the game felt less about teching up as fast as possible and it put some weight into unlocking units per situation. This really did open up a lot more units on the field, the mid game was extended quite a bit.


I wonder how other docs will look like. Its not about "early tank IV meta", Tank IV should be a workhorse in all axis docs and the first real tank to be fielded. And BK doc was already the only doc going for tank IV´s anyway most of the times, so i am afraid to see Tank IV´s disappearing completely.


i saw more greyhounds, more pumas, more halftracks, more infantry, even a stuart in one game (which was a smart move to counter the pumas! who knew people would actually be adventurous and try something outside of the meta). i won games i lost games.


yeah, bc nobody ever used stuarts, right :roll:
I tried stuarts tons of times but i always felt to get overwhelmed bc there are AT rifles, 50mm/75 mm Pumas, other vehicles with guns capable to kill it (even 28 mm guns), stug rush..... One way i tried with stuart was to rush for tank commanders and the off map arty strike. Prob was that i needed tank depot anyway to get tank commander. So at the end i could have spared the stuart and get tank depot instead to get better sherman. :roll:



I was facing against an armor doc and i actually unlocked the stormtroopers before the panzer BECAUSE i knew i could make some trades if i invested in a stronger earlier game to help me out in the later game.
But, i understand why it feels SOOOooo painful to have the panzer 4 unlock so late. it just breaks formulas. However, that is kind of a by product of reworks and the essense of well-rounded doctrines... the doctrine reworks is kind of meant to break formulas. Because now you have a greater more comprehensive assortment of tools to apply, so there's some skill in deciding when to unlock what depending on situations.


Thats how BK doc had always been. It was one of few docs that allowd it.... if you had map domination and fuel, you rushed tank IV, no fuel and you went assault group call in, and if you played the long game card you went storms or panthers right away.

Anyway, Tank IV is not a "all day meta", Tank IV was a "BK doc thing" as one of or the only doc using them effectively.


so there are definitely areas of improvement in terms of how tanks are unlocked, i can see that now. but i would definitely rather see other ideas rather than moving panzers to unlock earlier. And definitely panthers unlocking earlier. I like the fact that I felt like I needed to get stugs and couldn't just rely on sitting back behind my pak guns.



I will wait how other docs will look like, but these two tanks (Tank IV and Panther) had been the workhorses of the german army at that time and it would be wrong to make them appearing far later than Jacks/Pershings etc.

Stug IV is meta btw. Stug IV (WH) and Hetzer (PE) is common meta and will remain effective.


i also want to make sure... again are you all SURE that not having free AP rounds is a good idea?



yes, bc in the long run axis remains more quality focused, and thats how coh and BK is designed for. Thus Panthers will be the choice and thats good. I dont want an armor doc copy. Thus i would spare a lot more ammo with HE upgrade from which i can buy the few AP rounds for my panther.

Saving ammo from HE round would help me to spare ammo from which i can buy my AP rounds.

i want to know how you think blitz doc will plan to deal with armor doc late game, even in today's patch without armor doc reworks in mind. can blitz doc reliably fight jumbos? can blitz doc reliably fight against pershings?


Not with Tank IV spam against Pershings (with panther like armor and Tiger like gun to oneshot me) or against E8 (superior numbers in the long term, supply yard advantage, sandbag advantage, HP advantage, mobility advantage) in the very long run.
Tank IV spam could afterall be usefull early to mid game, as it was before, but in the long term Panthers will do the job. And thats good, thats called diversity and faction making.


On top of that, as you mentioned Jumbo, if you are going to rework armor doc, jumbo needs a rework as well. It was brutally well armed and it shouldnt be even considered to reliable deal with it with standard guns aka 75 mm L/48 family. Right now the jumbo is some sort of casino box and somewhat better than shermans, but nothing i would lay my hands in the fire for.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby CGarr » 13 Apr 2019, 23:09

I wonder how other docs will look like. Its not about "early tank IV meta", Tank IV should be a workhorse in all axis docs and the first real tank to be fielded. And BK doc was already the only doc going for tank IV´s anyway most of the times, so i am afraid to see Tank IV´s disappearing completely.


I agree with hawks here in that the P4 doesnt really feel like it has much utility and as such isn't really used outside of spamming it in the current meta of BK doc. Its kind of like the sherman 76, it outclasses the most common medium the opposing side has (sherman 76 vs p4, p4 vs sherman m4), and its not a bad overall unit but the other options available around the same time as it are so much better for the amount of fuel spent (stug for example is a meta unit because it smacks down most tanks up until heavies while being an effective deterrent against most inf aside from maybe 2 AT teams at once, all while being significantly cheaper). Having a turret doesnt really justify the fuel cost of the unit, I wouldn't necessarily say the timing is a problem though. It's just expensive enough that aside from a small window before you have panthers, its not worth building when compared to the alternatives available.

yeah, bc nobody ever used stuarts, right :roll:
I tried stuarts tons of times but i always felt to get overwhelmed bc there are AT rifles, 50mm/75 mm Pumas, other vehicles with guns capable to kill it (even 28 mm guns), stug rush..... One way i tried with stuart was to rush for tank commanders and the off map arty strike. Prob was that i needed tank depot anyway to get tank commander. So at the end i could have spared the stuart and get tank depot instead to get better sherman. :roll:


I think the main problem with using light tanks as allies is the abundance of extremely mobile high damage AT, not saying there should be less but in general its just hard to justify making a stuart when it gets outclassed at pretty much immediately by shermans / enemy tanks and with how numerous and effective axis early game AT is. Kind of irrelevant to the BK doc changes, just wanted to add to what Hawks was saying about the stuart since i'm not really sure what purpose it serves when an greyhound does its job so much better. I will note that the stuart is kind of in the same place as the p4 in terms of not really being a bad unit so much as it is one that gets outclassed quickly. With the stuart though, you also have to keep in mind that it doesnt even really have the same window of effectiveness that the p4 does because a solid counter to it is available almost immediately for WH and PE.

I was facing against an armor doc and i actually unlocked the stormtroopers before the panzer BECAUSE i knew i could make some trades if i invested in a stronger earlier game to help me out in the later game.
But, i understand why it feels SOOOooo painful to have the panzer 4 unlock so late. it just breaks formulas. However, that is kind of a by product of reworks and the essense of well-rounded doctrines... the doctrine reworks is kind of meant to break formulas. Because now you have a greater more comprehensive assortment of tools to apply, so there's some skill in deciding when to unlock what depending on situations.


I'm going to side with kwok on this one, the community voted for more well rounded docs that are all capable of holding their own and 1v1ing eachother, so having the timing on the p4 being dependent on your more CP unlock decisions rather than just teching up as fast as possible feels justified. Again, i'm not saying the p4 is in a good spot where it is (it really isn't), but changing the timing probably wont make much of a difference aside from effecting other units' effectiveness. The p4's problem lies in the the fact that it is well rounded to a fault, there is nothing it is particularly good at that other units can't do better, even in comparison to vehicles available earlier.

so there are definitely areas of improvement in terms of how tanks are unlocked, i can see that now. but i would definitely rather see other ideas rather than moving panzers to unlock earlier. And definitely panthers unlocking earlier. I like the fact that I felt like I needed to get stugs and couldn't just rely on sitting back behind my pak guns.


I will wait how other docs will look like, but these two tanks (Tank IV and Panther) had been the workhorses of the german army at that time and it would be wrong to make them appearing far later than Jacks/Pershings etc. Stug IV is meta btw. Stug IV (WH) and Hetzer (PE) is common meta and will remain effective.


These quotes sum up both the positives and negatives of having the p4 where it is currently. Other units are being used, which is good for preventing stagnation, but the p4 is also being underused aside from being spammed in one doctrine which is about to be reworked. I would really like to see the tank be reworked to be cheaper or to have more utility aside from just countering m4's (the m4 would be a good unit to draw inspiration from, it can be used as a counter for some commonly built axis units when it comes out, but it also a good amount of utility relative to its cost even when bigger tanks are available).

Something I'd propose that might fix this without changing the timing or cost at the point it comes out is to make the p4 have the same fuel cost as and slightly more MP (50-100) than a stug when panthers are unlocked. With that change it's cost vs utility might at least balance out so its used in an auxiliary role to panthers late game in the same way that stugs are.

yes, bc in the long run axis remains more quality focused, and thats how coh and BK is designed for. Thus Panthers will be the choice and thats good. I dont want an armor doc copy. Thus i would spare a lot more ammo with HE upgrade from which i can buy the few AP rounds for my panther.


I agree with hawks in the sense that I dont want blitz to be an armor copy, and I'm happy to see that the rework that has been presented for BK doc isnt a copy if you take into account their weaker tanks in exchange for more emphasis on mobility and coordinated assaults with both rounded tanks and strong infantry capable of both supporting armor and filling a reconnaissance/sabotage role with their sneak abilities and explosives.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Tiger1996 » 13 Apr 2019, 23:56

While i support reworking the off-map support to provide only Pz3s, yet... I have to point out that removal of Stug4 tanks from Blitz doc, is going to be a hard hit for the AT capabilities, since that Stug4 is the only available "tank hunter" option.. and without it, there is no any TDs in the doc with camo.

Nevertheless, as i said... I still think it's "OK" to no longer have any Stug4s by the off-map and just Pz3, but only as long as the off-map is separated from the tank line unlocks, otherwise; the doctrine would be have a serious flaw.. being unable to field any TDs or even Pz4s early enough!

Thus, the off-map has to be separated.. because obviously the Pz3.M can't be regarded as a reliable AT unit, the rate of fire will be high, but the gun would often bounce off Shermans, and it would also fail to penetrate anything bigger.. not to mention the damage is low.
Pz3 won't be nothing more than a pressure tool...

On the other hand, it's Terror doc that should have access to Stug4 tanks.. being pure TDs.

=========================================

Concerning the AP ammo unlock, yes.. it's un-needed, as long as Pz4 unlock isn't delayed so much, as explained above.
Maultier should cost at least 2 CPs or so, and the LeiG.18 could be a special Blitz doc unit that is available as soon as the doctrine is picked.
And no longer reward to 50mm AT gun...

- So, the line at the bottom could look like this:

Blitz ability (2CP) >>> Stuka (2CP) ---(separate)--- Maultier (2CP) >>> Stupa (2CP)

So, this way... You have Stuka after 4 total command points, and same for Stupa.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 14 Apr 2019, 08:33

wait, you want maultier and stupa being together, also stuka strike being available? too much OP and too much ammo investments.
so in the end blitz doc is about:
1) strong assault infantry
2) overwhelming forces (call-in)
3) strong early-middle game vehicles
4) breathrough abilities
-
Only problem is the axis is hard on countering (not having units just for defence) heavy allied vehicles, if there are no specialized doctrine, so they are forced to rush analogues.
Just interesting, how would Terror doctrine would looks like, if it will have Tigers and strong infantry too, isn't it will be too much copy of blitz, but with more armored vehicles?

Give BK armor smoke dispencers for my survability, make early tanks cheap and more faster time production, to compensate it's shitty armor against 37mm or at rifles, otherwise it will just slide together with other doctrines and there will a lot less advantage over others

p.s: and also less CP unlocks for axis ffs, instead of making new interesting abilities, it's wasting on basic stuff like Pz4's which is already was workhorse for Axis.

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idliketoplaybetter
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 14 Apr 2019, 16:34

Personally i would love to see an easy accessable light-medium tanks/units in general, with more less cheap light/medium arty and air support with passive optional upgrades for it.

Like yes, having cheap pz3/4/stugs and even pumas, but with late game open for ammo price reductions and additional armors.

Even more to say, conceptuonally saying, it should be all to go early push doc with more passive CP upgrades, than anything else.

Cheap MP for all squads upgrades, leutnant with smoke and mortar deliver + force aura. Would even take from the offmap group tanks/stugs at all, giving HT and AT squads from there + healing. Pioneers with sturm abilities.
HT could obtain camouflage or/and provide recon capability.

Like, doctrine was about mobility, intelligence and combat arms.
Currently, I'm probably the only person who uses bike.
I'd give it optional/doctrinal scout ability too.
Lack of heavy at armor, I'd compensate with TH ability, that allows you to see armor through the fow.
More light Arty for breakthrough, would be optional with cheaper officer calls and overall fight auras.
Officers is the key unit imo.
"You can argue only with like-minded people"

MenciusMoldbug
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 14 Apr 2019, 19:29

I think we should start adding in workshop maps to the BK Maps folder. Because workshop maps can't be watched by other players except the one's who played and saved the replay themselves because of how wonky they are. Might be one of the reasons not a lot of replays get uploaded in the replay section.

For armor doc re-work: I think if something needs to be changed it should be the commander artillery ability for light vehicles. Stuarts/Chaffees should get a mortar barrage ability (like airborne infantry) that has a bit more range / is cheaper / and is on a separate cooldown to normal tank artillery. It's one of the ways to give incentives to using light vehicles as armor doctrine because they don't have much of a role when the cheaper sherman unlock comes in.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 15 Apr 2019, 00:14

MenciusMoldbug wrote:
For armor doc re-work: I think if something needs to be changed it should be the commander artillery ability for light vehicles. Stuarts/Chaffees should get a mortar barrage ability (like airborne infantry) that has a bit more range / is cheaper / and is on a separate cooldown to normal tank artillery. It's one of the ways to give incentives to using light vehicles as armor doctrine because they don't have much of a role when the cheaper sherman unlock comes in.


and Tank commander unlock with Motorpool. That way these light tanks would also become more attractive. Having a tank commander in a light tank during vehicle stage could be a nice thing.
Also units like stuart could have a few more abilties. I cant say what exactly but just something, idk. Perhaps some sort of increased crew performance for a short time that increases the rate of fire, making the 37 mm for a short time a real quick shooting thing. When it ends the crew would be exhausted for some time with shorter reload. But during short intense battles that could give the tank some changes to compete with other units.
Other things would be the traditional smoke. Cheap mortar off map doesnt sound bad either.

MEFISTO
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 19 Apr 2019, 03:41

I suggest the developers change the call in (instead a PIII a jeep and engineers) it is going to be interesting and balance, I thing PIII is to strong to face Shermans 75 and 76mm ,camouflage m10, Hellcat, achilles, FF , and bazooka jeeps and of course if it possible remove the new ammo upgrade it is going to make this doctrine to strong after this may be we can star talking about how to balance the rest of the doctrine.

MEFISTO
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 21 Apr 2019, 02:34

Ok guys talking seriously, I have read all that you propose about the Call In but before start talking about it we should take a look about what is this doctrine purpose, because some time it is hard to have a good concept about Blitzkrieg meaning: "Blitzkrieg, (German: “lightning war”) military tactic calculated to create psychological shock and resultant disorganization in enemy forces through the employment of surprise, speed, and superiority in material or firepower". All of the change made to this doctrine in the new patch make all of this better we just need to organize a bit better the CP unlock for some units and retouch some stuff. Now when read some of your ideas about change the Call in and use only PzIII I have to say that we need a change in that Call In but the answer it is not that PzIII because it is to weak (because you need you Armor factory to have this Call in ) by that time your enemy should have medium armors already) can't face any medium tank, I think this PzIII is like a Chaffee you can penetrate medium tanks but no chance to beat them, I am agree with remove PZIV and StugIV and I think the best option for this Call In is the StugIII is a real infantry support armor, it has infantry bonuses, HP and a decent performance vs medium tanks (less than a PZIV J H and a StugIV) and this Call in should cost 4cp. This is what I think about the call in and to finish with the PzIII you should be able to have it in your Puma factory because it is a light tank with almost the same performance as a Chafee an Stuard.

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby mofetagalactica » 21 Apr 2019, 04:03

MEFISTO wrote:Ok guys talking seriously, I have read all that you propose about the Call In but before start talking about it we should take a look about what is this doctrine purpose, because some time it is hard to have a good concept about Blitzkrieg meaning: "Blitzkrieg, (German: “lightning war”) military tactic calculated to create psychological shock and resultant disorganization in enemy forces through the employment of surprise, speed, and superiority in material or firepower". All of the change made to this doctrine in the new patch make all of this better we just need to organize a bit better the CP unlock for some units and retouch some stuff. Now when read some of your ideas about change the Call in and use only PzIII I have to say that we need a change in that Call In but the answer it is not that PzIII because it is to weak (because you need you Armor factory to have this Call in ) by that time your enemy should have medium armors already) can't face any medium tank, I think this PzIII is like a Chaffee you can penetrate medium tanks but no chance to beat them, I am agree with remove PZIV and StugIV and I think the best option for this Call In is the StugIII is a real infantry support armor, it has infantry bonuses, HP and a decent performance vs medium tanks (less than a PZIV J H and a StugIV) and this Call in should cost 4cp. This is what I think about the call in and to finish with the PzIII you should be able to have it in your Puma factory because it is a light tank with almost the same performance as a Chafee an Stuard.


Actually the chaffe has no way to win vs pzIII 50mm that the PE has.

MEFISTO
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MEFISTO » 21 Apr 2019, 04:59

mofetagalactica wrote:
MEFISTO wrote:Ok guys talking seriously, I have read all that you propose about the Call In but before start talking about it we should take a look about what is this doctrine purpose, because some time it is hard to have a good concept about Blitzkrieg meaning: "Blitzkrieg, (German: “lightning war”) military tactic calculated to create psychological shock and resultant disorganization in enemy forces through the employment of surprise, speed, and superiority in material or firepower". All of the change made to this doctrine in the new patch make all of this better we just need to organize a bit better the CP unlock for some units and retouch some stuff. Now when read some of your ideas about change the Call in and use only PzIII I have to say that we need a change in that Call In but the answer it is not that PzIII because it is to weak (because you need you Armor factory to have this Call in ) by that time your enemy should have medium armors already) can't face any medium tank, I think this PzIII is like a Chaffee you can penetrate medium tanks but no chance to beat them, I am agree with remove PZIV and StugIV and I think the best option for this Call In is the StugIII is a real infantry support armor, it has infantry bonuses, HP and a decent performance vs medium tanks (less than a PZIV J H and a StugIV) and this Call in should cost 4cp. This is what I think about the call in and to finish with the PzIII you should be able to have it in your Puma factory because it is a light tank with almost the same performance as a Chafee an Stuard.


Actually the chaffe has no way to win vs pzIII 50mm that the PE has.

chaffe has a 75mm gun same as a sherman m4 , the difference is the armor not the gun, a sherman m4 75mm doesn't have any problem to take a PzIII down.


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