5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

[idliketoplaybetter]

BlitzHalftruck.

what?
For me it was core unit. In all long lasting games that couldnt be finished with tank IV´s, this thing was a must have, let alone for the storm leader squad.

It just i think it should just be a buildable option right on after reaching t2 with blitzdoc chosen. In a big picture of CP usage early, spending what? 4CP to reach it is highly debatable, although it should be core thing.

Instead, players rush for 3cp something for t3. Sit back. Teching. Potentially to that point they are gaining another 2cp and call in units from out of the map.
In result, in opposition of rushy early powerfull doc, in case of result and very passive play from both sides, it ends as who has more Manpower and lucky to use HE on atgun.

Upgrades for Storms are unlikeble to go for early.

few require HQ upgrade first but generally they get bought, perhaps not early on.

I meant the CP brench, not an upgrade of weapons and so on.

[wannoa]

Hello to all of you,

- Lowered HP of all squad members of AT rifle squad to 60 (from 80)
- AT rifle squad leader now uses Kar98 (from MP40)
- Removed 46mm AT grenade from AT rifle squad
- Lowered maximum range of GrB39 to 60 (from 65)
- Lowered accuracy of GrB39 to 85%/75%/65/55% (from 100%/90%/80%/70%)
- Increased aim time of GrB39 to 1-2 seconds (from 1)
- Lowered projectile speed of GrB39 grenades to 50 (from 75)
- Removed building options from GrB39 squad
- GrB39 squad no longer receives bonuses when shooting from camo

Finally some good news for Allies, specially after pershing hp nerf. Thanks Warhawks without you it never be happen i think.
But honestly i dont think need nerf hp, aim time and aim(not so hard maybe,5-10% it be enough for my opinion) cuz unit not have camo like AT boyz.

[Viper]

many people complain about stupa.

i want to say british sherman with tulip rocket is very strong right now. i think artillery changes made them much stronger.
they can kill elefant, jagdtiger, panther and jagdpanther so easily. from range of 100 or more.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

many people complain about stupa.

i want to say british sherman with tulip rocket is very strong right now. i think artillery changes made them much stronger.
they can kill elefant, jagdtiger, panther and jagdpanther so easily.

I want to say hotchkiss with rockets upgraded is very strong right now. i think artillery changes made them much stronger.
they can wipe out numerous numbers of squads, support weapons and AT so easily.

[Viper]

same with calliope jeep rockets.
they hit better than 150mm rockets.

or the 95mm churchill.
it can kill heavy tanks in 4 hits now.

my point is why people complain too much only about stupa although most artillery is now op. and 105 howitzers being most op. thanks to the terrible changes introduced to artillery.

they wanted to fix artillery but they ended up making bk mod artillery simulator..........

[Mr. FeministDonut]

nah nah nah, it's not same with jeep rockets. calliope rockets are mostly denial tool, since it has low damage and accuracy.
they might wipe, but it will 100% wipe of non-garrisoned support weapons, otherwise 2-4 model got killed.
churchill 95mm is OP I agree, but heavy german rockets still OP, AoE still bugged and still wiping allied armies

[mofetagalactica]

nah nah nah, it's not same with jeep rockets. calliope rockets are mostly denial tool, since it has low damage and accuracy.
they might wipe, but it will 100% wipe of non-garrisoned support weapons, otherwise 2-4 model got killed.
churchill 95mm is OP I agree, but heavy german rockets still OP, AoE still bugged and still wiping allied armies

The AOE of the direct hit of callio missiles is too big, so its true it has low damage but a direct hit (easy to do) its good enought to blow up multiple formations of infantry and at's

And so far the "terrible changes to artillery" was mostly a reduction of german armor resistance to artillery and is now at the same level than allied armor, thats why you feel like your tanks are dying easily to artillery since it was like this for years for allied tanks.

[Viper]

And so far the "terrible changes to artillery" was mostly a reduction of german armor resistance to artillery and is now at the same level than allied armor, thats why you feel like your tanks are dying easily to artillery since it was like this for years for allied tanks.

this part is inaccurate.

the artillery changes did not give direct reduction to german armor resistance against artillery. but instead of that, it is supposed that artillery damage was tweaked to be average resistance for both allies and axis. so they are on the same resistance level now. but they messed up big time. and i think they are not even aware of the calculation mistakes they did. but i dont have time to explain or argue about everything. the result is artillery (most artillery, if not all) is a lot deadlier than what it was before version 515 and bk mod now is almost artillery simulator game.

[MarKr]

Can you try to explain what you mean here a bit better?
He says

so far the "terrible changes to artillery" was mostly a reduction of german armor resistance to artillery and is now at the same level than allied armor

Tanks of Allies always took 100% of the damage dealt by Axis arty while Axis units had damage taken from allied arty always reduced by 25% (they literally had x0.75 damage modifier), now this reduction is gone and thus they are on the same level.
You say

the artillery changes did not give direct reduction to german armor resistance against artillery. but instead of that, it is supposed that artillery damage was tweaked to be average resistance for both allies and axis. so they are on the same resistance level now.

So you claim (the first underlined part) that the Axis damage resistance is the same as it was. In the second underlined part you claim we tweaked the damage values to somehow even the damage resistance on both sides? Or when you say "average resistance for both allies and axis" you mean we gave all tanks 12.5% resistance (allies had 0% resistance, axis had 25% so average would be 12.5%) to arty?
What you say is quite ambiguous so I am not sure what you think we did there or how it would work

they messed up big time. and i think they are not even aware of the calculation mistakes they did.
(...)
but i dont have time to explain or argue about everything

Hard to rebut when you don't give any details on where the alleged mistakes are. So I will use the same approach and just say that you messed up big time in your assessment but I don't have time to explain or argue about it

[Viper]

my assessment is ambiguous because i want it to be so. because if i try to explain too much. it will take us some more pages until you are finally convinced. and when you are convinced you will try to fix the problem. and when you try to fix the problem. it will most likely get only worse......so why even bother? a messed up something is at least better than a fked up one. so i think it is better staying like this.

[MarKr]

So basically you bring it up, complain how utterly bad it is, and when asked for explanation you just say it does not bother you enough to even try to explain.

so why even bother?

I am asking myself the same question - why did you even bother bringing it up if you don't consider it enough of a problem to be bothered with its solving.

[Warhawks97]

the artillery changes did not give direct reduction to german armor resistance against artillery. but instead of that, it is supposed that artillery damage was tweaked to be average resistance for both allies and axis. so they are on the same resistance level now. but they messed up big time. and i think they are not even aware of the calculation mistakes they did. but i dont have time to explain or argue about everything. the result is artillery (most artillery, if not all) is a lot deadlier than what it was before version 515 and bk mod now is almost artillery simulator game.

Just Facts:

105 mm howitzer damage: 335
105 mm damage in the center of explosion old version: 502,5
105 mm damage in the center of explosion new version: 603
Axis Tanks received damage from arty old version: x0.75 modifier ( Even open turret tanks like Ostwind. Many like KT, Elephant and even Jagdpanther had less, with 40 to 50% damage reduction)
Allied Tanks received damage from arty old version: x1 modifier (Crocc churchill took 25% less damage)

Axis Tanks received damage from 105 arty new version: x0.75 modifier
Allied Tanks received damage from 105 arty new version: x0.75 modifier




Taken damage from direct 105 mm arty hit allied tanks old version: 502,5
Taken damage from direct 105 mmm arty hit axis tanks old version: 376,875

Taken damage from direct 105 mm arty hit allied tanks new version: 452,25
Taken damage from direct 105 mmm arty hit axis tanks new version: 452,25



Taken damage from close 105 mmm arty hit axis tanks old version: 188,4375
Taken damage from close 105 mmm arty hit axis tanks new version: 188,4375

Taken damage from close 105 mmm arty hit Allied tanks old version: 251,25
Taken damage from close 105 mmm arty hit Allied tanks new version: 188,4375



I hope people will get this once and for all. Damage from direct hits have been increased for axis and decreased for allied so that both are similiar resistant now.
Big losers are KT, JT, Elephant and Jagdpanther since those took 50 % (KT, JT, Elephant) and 40% less (JP) damage respectively. Tanks from Tank hunter doctrine were virtually immun to arty after Zimmerit upgrade. (e.g Jagpanther direct hit after Zimmierit upgrade in old version: 335x1,5x0,75x0,75=282,65625 damage). Tank Hunter doctrine tanks are currently the most arty resistant tanks due to Zimmerit.



About Calli:
The Calli jeeps are stronger than calli sherman bc they use vcoh vet system. Thus they gain veeery quick vet level and with those damage gets increased. But thats a issue with the vet system that is still from vcoh. It was not intended (or is not) to work this way.

[Viper]

Axis Tanks received damage from arty old version: x0.75 modifier ( Even open turret tanks like Ostwind. Many like KT, Elephant and even Jagdpanther had less, with 40 to 50% damage reduction)
Allied Tanks received damage from arty old version: x1 modifier (Crocc churchill took 25% less damage)

Axis Tanks received damage from 105 arty new version: x0.75 modifier
Allied Tanks received damage from 105 arty new version: x0.75 modifier

Tanks of Allies always took 100% of the damage dealt by Axis arty while Axis units had damage taken from allied arty always reduced by 25% (they literally had x0.75 damage modifier), now this reduction is gone and thus they are on the same level.

is it only me? or there is contradiction?

Taken damage from direct 105 mm arty hit allied tanks old version: 502,5
Taken damage from direct 105 mmm arty hit axis tanks old version: 376,875

Taken damage from direct 105 mm arty hit allied tanks new version: 452,25
Taken damage from direct 105 mmm arty hit axis tanks new version: 452,25

yes. thats what i meant when i said:

damage was tweaked to be average resistance for both allies and axis.

and i dont know why this was done:

Big losers are KT, JT, Elephant and Jagdpanther since those took 50 % (KT, JT, Elephant) and 40% less (JP) damage respectively.

is it to make utter expensive units more useless than already are? i dont know whats the intention of the devs here.

[Warhawks97]

is it only me? or there is contradiction?

In the target table all got 25% damage reduction. However direct hits have been increased for axis. But generally damage got lowered when you take into account the damage for allies and damage taken by close hits.

yes. thats what i meant when i said:
damage was tweaked to be average resistance for both allies and axis.

and where is the prob? I am one of few who played armor doctrine in numbers rather than single expensive units. And my loses to random arty has dropped significantly.

and i dont know why this was done:

Big losers are KT, JT, Elephant and Jagdpanther since those took 50 % (KT, JT, Elephant) and 40% less (JP) damage respectively.

is it to make utter expensive units more useless than already are? i dont know whats the intention of the devs here.

First, what means usless? Put any tank into heavy arty fire and they all are usless. Put a KT against Jumbos and other shermans and the KT will be super effective.

And because has anyone ever cared a shit about this?

Allied Tanks received damage from arty old version: x1 modifier (Crocc churchill took 25% less damage)

Jumbos, Pershings, so far all churchills and even Super Pershing took the full damage. Why should axis heavies enjoy 50% damage reduction and 25% even for their Halftracks while Jumbos and allied heavy stuff had to take the full damage.

Now all are at 25% reduction, Tigers, Panthers, Pershings, Jumbos.... i dont see an issue here.

+ Who stated that "Heavy" means to have more HP? They already have twice the HP of many medium tanks and triple that of light tanks. From a realistic point of view, there wouldnt be a difference in HP. It doesnt matter whether you pen a medium tank or a heavy one. Both were filled with ammo all over the place. One pen shot and a hit into the ammo rack and the tank would blow up or catch fire.

So these heavies already have the luxury of huge HP pool. I dont see why they should take also less damage when there is no reason for that. If you get properly penetrated, it doesnt matter how thick your armor was or how heavy your tank is.

[MarKr]

is it only me? or there is contradiction?

No, not just you. It is as Hawks said, I did not check the values - there was a unification in stats but not towards "more vulnerable" value but towards the "more resistant" value. However the point still stands - in previous versions Axis had tanks more resistant to arty than Allies and there was no real justification for it.

yes. thats what i meant when i said "damage was tweaked to be average resistance for both allies and axis."

That is the ambiguity again - what you wrote leads to a question "How do you 'tweak damage to be average resistance' ?" We tweaked resistance values which obviously influnces the final damage taken but that is essentially the opposite of what you wrote...and you tell me that you write ambiguously on purpose so that you don't have to spend time explaning. If you wrote it "unambiguously" the first time, there would be no need for explanation at all:

"You changed the resistances so now Axis tanks take more damage than before and Allies less so now they take the same damage."

1 sentence, clearly said, no further explanation needed and since you are so short on time, you would have saved some of your time because you wouldn't have to write the previous three posts.

Anyway, it is still not just about the damage numbers. This has been said before but one more time: On direct hit (or very near hit) the damage is bigger BUT scoring the direct hit is a lot harder because the "direct hit" area is now smaller - many arty guns had the "direct hit" area size somewhere between 2 and 3, now it is 1.

Bottom line is that direct/near hits deal more damage than before, but you have lower chance to deal a direct-hit damage, when the shot lands farther than in the direct/near hit radius, the damage is the same or lower than before the changes.

It is really hard to see how this is more "messed up" than the system before where tanks of allies took more damage for no reason and some arty types suffered no damage drop in about 40% of their AoE etc.

[Shanks]

@Viper...you have to know that -Markr-warhawks-kwok-figree-idliketoplaybetter-Mr.feministdonut-panzerblitz1-wolf- are fanatics of the allies, and they decide all the changes, it is impossible to talk about balance with these people, do not waste your time anymore, I recommend you it

[Panzerblitz1]

@Viper...you have to know that -Markr-warhawks-kwok-figree-idliketoplaybetter-Mr.feministdonut-panzerblitz1-wolf- are fanatics of the allies, and they decide all the changes, it is impossible to talk about balance with these people, do not waste your time anymore, I recommend you it

Come on! Can you please stop saying BS, seriously...

[Mr. FeministDonut]

wolf

You're totally wrong. Seriously? Wolf?
He is a FKing statue in the BK community and he is actually left the project by some inside info, Markkr and PzBlitz don't want to reveal this, so community won't split up.

[idliketoplaybetter]

Cool, - im in the club now..
Not cool, - im after figree(?) on the list, which is sorta the shame.

And i think he just misspelled Wurf, by saying Wolf there. That would be my best troll guess

But lol, my play ratio is mixed along all factions, even more, id say that with Axis (specifically WM) my stats are more stable, therefore i think that ur just a non-sense person. Ah wait, right..

[Shanks]

@Viper...you have to know that -Markr-warhawks-kwok-figree-idliketoplaybetter-Mr.feministdonut-panzerblitz1-wolf- are fanatics of the allies, and they decide all the changes, it is impossible to talk about balance with these people, do not waste your time anymore, I recommend you it

Come on! Can you please stop saying BS, seriously...

It's the truth, panzerblitz1 you just need to give a nuclear bomb to the USA, and I would not care anyway, you kill the game and it's sad

@Mr.feministdonut...Wolf is supposed to have the final decision, and do not come you to say "wolf left the project", because if so, it's worse than I thought, and you are a fan of the allies and you just make fun of the comments of those who want to contribute some balance

@idliketoplaybetter...I said Wolf, and you're a fan of the allies

[Krieger Blitzer]

just a proper post crossing by... Since I believe there is something worth highlighting:

Anyway, it is still not just about the damage numbers. This has been said before but one more time: On direct hit (or very near hit) the damage is bigger BUT scoring the direct hit is a lot harder because the "direct hit" area is now smaller - many arty guns had the "direct hit" area size somewhere between 2 and 3, now it is 1.

On the contrary, scoring the direct hit is actually a lot easier... Or that's at least the case with 105mm howitzers (for both Axis & Allies) And not only does the scatter get reduced by veterancy, leading to better accuracy.. but the extremely quick reload time also becomes even quicker.

in a span of 7 to 8 stock seconds, 105mm arty can shoot twice, whereas in the same period of time, 155mm arty would only shoot once... This means that 105mm arty can deliver or has 2x times the chance to deliver about 900 damage per 2 hits only in a matter of 7 to 8 seconds... While the 155mm arty would need about the same time or more, just to have a single chance of delivering about 600 to 700 damage for the hit.

Furthermore, 105 howitzers have bigger range, and 8 shells per barrage (only 50 ammo cost) meaning even more chances to deliver significantly higher damage than any other 155mm arty in the game, for greatly cheaper cost and in a much shorter time as well...

[Panzerblitz1]

wolf

You're totally wrong. Seriously? Wolf?
He is a FKing statue in the BK community and he is actually left the project by some inside info, Markkr and PzBlitz don't want to reveal this, so community won't split up.

You guys needs to stop smoking the carpet... i mean it.

[MarKr]

On the contrary, scoring the direct hit is actually a lot easier...

OK. How exactly? Direct hits depend only on the place where the shots hits and for artillery this is purely random within the scatter area. You may say that the scatter gets lowered and so more shots are concentrated on smaller area, sure. However the placement of the shots is still random and unless the first shot disables your tank, you will always move it away (if you watch the area, if you don't and leave the tank there you would very likely lose it even with the old settings), and since the scatter area is smaller, you can get out of the area faster.

Scatter gets reduced with veterancy but that has been the case for years. Even when I discovered BK few years ago, artillery units got with each Vet level scatter reduction, cooldown reduction and faster reloads. On top of that the arty also had bigger "direct hit area" (so the radius in which the game deals the highest damage, and, as you said, arty had lower range. You are surely aware that scatter gets bigger with distance. This means that in the past the 105mm arty fired at closer ranges and so it had smaller scatter and it still got reduced with Veterancy levels.

So in the past static howitzers fired their barrages into smaller area and in this smaller area more ground was covered with the maximum damage (+ often the "edges" of AoE dealt more damage than now because there was no damage drop), this sounds like the howitzers should be more deadly in the past than now, right? So why this wasn't a problem for anybody in the past? Because nobody used the static howitzers. Why nobody used the static howitzers? Because they had lower range than some of the mobile arty units and that meant that you fired the static howitzer once (this revealed its position) and then it was just waiting there to eat an enemy arty barrage so they rarely got any Veterancy bonuses, also they took quite long time to finish the barrage and often got decrewed by counter arty before they could even finish the 6 shots.

Now the howitzers have the longest range to make up for the static disadvantage (at least a bit), but that does not help much because even with the longer range, the enemy can still just drive in the FoW into the range of his mobile arty and barage the static position. So it needed some more advantage to make it useful. That is why we added more shots to each barrage and made it shoot them faster. Now the static howitzers are worth using and I can claim that with certainty because people started "abusing" them - building them and sharing them with team mates (again, this was almost never done in the past because the howitzers sucked; in short people only abuse stuff that works well). If I remember correctly, it was also you who said that the game is full of arty because players give the howitzers to allies and then everyone shoots everywhere. This means that large part of the problem is not the effectiveness of static howitzers but rather the possibility to have crapload of howitzers in one team and thus making the whole team (no matter what doc they choose) able to use a LOT more arty than it was intended (a.k.a. "arty fest").

This is the reason why changes are coming - the ammo upkeeps and only "arty" doctrines will be able to fire barrages from static howitzers, which will make it pointless to "give" your howitzers to team mates. That will, in turn, lower the overall usage of barrages from static howitzers. Nevertheless, the stat bonuses of vetted static howitzers will see some changes too but there is no need to change the howitzers back to their previous state, as you've suggested before, because that would return them into the "this sucks, never use it" state.

[Krieger Blitzer]

This is the reason why changes are coming - the ammo upkeeps and only "arty" doctrines will be able to fire barrages from static howitzers, which will make it pointless to "give" your howitzers to team mates. That will, in turn, lower the overall usage of barrages from static howitzers. Nevertheless, the stat bonuses of vetted static howitzers will see some changes too but there is no need to change the howitzers back to their previous state

Very well, sounds fair enough!

Though... I would also add that removing the "direct fire" ability from 105mm howitzers would be very welcomed, too.
US version has "click to shoot" ability, whereas the WH one has "timed" ability that attacks a specific target within 60 range.
I believe those howitzers aren't supposed to protect themselves against tanks when attacked frontally at regular combat range...
it's enough that their range is the highest, so when you finally reach their static position with ground units.. they shouldn't be harmful anymore.
Also, I would recommend removing this ability from Priest & Grille, as well as from any other mobile self-propelled artillery unit with abilities alike.

[Panzerblitz1]

@Viper...you have to know that -Markr-warhawks-kwok-figree-idliketoplaybetter-Mr.feministdonut-panzerblitz1-wolf- are fanatics of the allies, and they decide all the changes, it is impossible to talk about balance with these people, do not waste your time anymore, I recommend you it

Come on! Can you please stop saying BS, seriously...

It's the truth, panzerblitz1 you just need to give a nuclear bomb to the USA, and I would not care anyway, you kill the game and it's sad

@Mr.feministdonut...Wolf is supposed to have the final decision, and do not come you to say "wolf left the project", because if so, it's worse than I thought, and you are a fan of the allies and you just make fun of the comments of those who want to contribute some balance

@idliketoplaybetter...I said Wolf, and you're a fan of the allies

No, its not the truth at all, and I don’t really think one second you have even a start of a correct judgement here, the Team work is a non bias work, and always turned to balance all factions, our choices aren’t dictated by any players here, suggestions are made, we listen, we discuss, we implement if its needed, we readjust if it was a mistake.
Bk is a giant puzzle, and if you decide always to use and play the same units without thinking maybe some others strategy or tools at your disposal are maybe more efficient, it is your problem, not ours, we can’t fix players tunnel visions.
We will never set bk for one player game style, never.
So please stop spitting your venom, and people who CREATE new account to insult us and members will finish into the bin anyway, if you know what i mean, stop the hate, use ur brain.
We aren't 8 years old "Fan Boys" playing with their favorites toys, we are devs who are working for all.
And stop acting like a child towards us and our work because its starting to be extremely annoying.