5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

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MarKr
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5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2019, 00:40

Hello to all of you,

reworks have been mentioned many times. There were two concepts to go with - either turn all doctrines "specilized" (strong in some situations but quite weak in different situations) or "wellrounded" (every doctrine has means to deal with all situations). In the end we decided it would be better to go with the "wellrounded" approach because that way the game can be better played with strangers on teams but cooperation will still reward you with an advantage too. If we introduced all the reworked doctrines in one huge patch, it would turn all known "formulas" upside-down and it would most likely lead to a mass hysteria, with a ton of posts like "this is BS! Doc (insert any doc) is OP/too weak now!!!" without investing time into finding new way that would work. To prevent this we will introduce the doctrines one by one - one doc gets introduced, then we will collect feedback for a week or two, then we add in another doctrine, again feedback period, then another doc and so on. The first doctrine is the Blitzkrieg doctrine.

Doctrine selection.jpg
The unlock tree is slightly restructured - top line are tank unlocks, on the right are tank-production upgrades, on the left are infantry unlocks, in the middle are resource push abilities and in the bottom line we have "assault/breakthrough" line. It is structured in such a way that it forces players to some planning and decision making instead of having the most useful things in one branch and the rest being there to pick up as a bonus.

Command tree.jpg
"Tank capture" unlock was not used very much because it made you keep a tank near a point for an eternity (to cap it) and so it was visible to the enemy and he could bomb/arty it any time, so now this ability is merged with the Blitzkrieg ability - once you unlock BK ability, your tanks will be able to cap points, however when you activate the ability, the tanks will be able to cap a lot faster for the duration of the ability. Also the "Assault" unlock for Storms (Throwing grenade volley) is now merged with Veterancy unlock and the freed space is now taken by "Munitions Reserves" - giving the Wolfram ammo (but not the HE ammo) to all PIVs and Panthers - it only gives the upgrade, they still need to pay ammo for activation of the AP ability.

In the "top" line is: "Offmap combat group" -> "PIV H/J" -> "Panther A/D2" -> "Panther G Ace"
Offmap combat group works the same as before - gives you randomly a PIV H or J or StuGIII or StuGIV Late version + one infantry squad (Can be Storms, Grens, Volks + possibly random weapon upgrade). Activation of the ability requires you to have the Tank Factory built so it is not possible to call in the medium units before you actally tech up and build the Tank factory. It costs 3CP which might seem a lot but during the PvP testing anything less made the ability too strong because it allowed you to get the medium units before opponents got proper counter units.
(It is quite possible that in the next update this will be restructured to "PIV H/J" (2CP) -> "Offmap combat group" (2CP) -> "Panther A/D2" (2CP) -> "Panther G Ace" (2CP) because the latest alpha feedback suggests the ability is still too spammable too early, but this feedback was received only after the beta had been uploaded so it is not in this release)

PIV H/J unlock is the next - same as before. The command tank requires this unlock + the "improved Tank factory production" unlock too, so it now unlocks more units.

Panther unlock gives access to buildable Panther tanks. The D2 (former Luft Panther) is a bit cheaper and does not require the Heavy tank factory upgrade, the A version does.

The "bottom" line is: "Blitzkrieg ability" -> "Assault howitzers" -> "Airstrike"
Blitzkrieg ability is the same as it used to be before, only the effect of "Tank capture" is now merged into it.

Assault howitzers give access to StuH42 or StuPa (based of reward selection) - the purpose is the same for both units but obviously, StuPa has better armor and stronger gun but comes later and costs a lot more.

Airstrike is a new ability for Blitzkrieg doctrine but it is the same old ability which Luft has had for ages - BK cannot choose between "single Stuka" and "Stuka Patrol", they only have access to the "Single Stuka" airstrike. It is another option for them to deal with heavy defenses in case usage of direct-shooting units is too risky, but the plane can be shot down too so its usage is not without risks either.

Wellrounded doctrines should have something to deal with any situation and in the past BK doc struggled with breaking defensive lines, so the rework gives them means to deal with this - Blitz has now a reward option to choose between StuH42 and StuPa, which is for direct-attacks and they also can use Stuka plane to drop bombs.
StuPa reward.jpg
StuPa for now shares unlock for both BK and Def doc. This is temporary and will be changed.
BK keeps its infantry and ability to spam medium tanks, however in order to keep the medium tank spam viable even in later game, BK now has command tank (PIV) which works same way as the US command car - no passive aura, only timed buffs.
CT1.jpg
CT2.jpg
The command tank requires the PIV H/J unlock and also the "Increased Tank Factory Production" unlock. The unit is limited to 1 at a time and its price is NOT reduced with the "PIV mass production" unlock. Unlike the Command Cromwell of CW, this tank can use its main gun, however the reload times are a lot longer than for PIV H/J and since it is a modified PIV J, it also has the slow turret rotation so it can fight along side other tanks but in its raw "DPS" it is weaker, main strength of this unit is in its capacity to buff tanks around.

BK doc should be about mobility and so bulky, slow Tigers don't fit in here. Tigers were removed from this doc (and will be probably moved to Terror doc) and BK doc now has access to all types of Panthers - Tiger ace is replaced by Panther G Ace, and based on reward choice, you can build either Panther A (costs more, is slightly slower, has top MG) or Panther D (Luft has had it till now; this now has an assault ability same as StuGIII).
Panther Reward.jpg

One thing that has been added is that abilities have now their effects (stat bonuses) listed - this will hopefully help people see the true potential of the abilities and will start using them more often. For now we have this for the BK doc but we will add it to all abilities (where needed) with each new doc rework.
Descriptions 1.jpg
Descriptions 2.jpg
The plan is also to keep bunkers for WM only in Defensive doctrine but since Blitzkrieg and Terror will be more focused on tanks, they will get "Light Repair Bunkers" - these are bunkers which already come with the "Repair station" upgrade, they cannot be garrisoned and have less HP than normal bunkers so they are easier to destroy, but it provides to the doctrine an option to have a repair point available in the field.
Repair Station.jpg


After the recent discussion about "WM AT rifle making all Allied vehicles obsolete" some changes to the squad have been made too, in order to make it less of a pain in the ass for the early game of Allies. The soldiers have now less HP (so they are easier to kill), the leader no longer has an MP40 (so the squad is more susceptible to close-range rushes), the 46mm grenade ability has been removed (to prevent this squad making 50mm PaK obsolete) and they can no longer build anything (so if they want cover, they need some supporting unit to build it for them). The max range has been lowered to 60 (to prevent kiting) and basic accuracy of the 30mm grenades has been dropped by 15% at all ranges (so no longer sniping vehicles at any range). However the grenades still cannot bounce off of vehicles or tanks and compared to BOYS, the grenade deals more damage on hit.
The bottom line is that the rifle has higher chance to miss, even more so when the target is moving, and the squad is more squishy now and more susceptible to infantry rushes (no more MP40, yay!) so it should not be such a pain in the ass anymore.
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Changelog:

General:
- Vehicles and tanks that did not have gyro-stabilizers have now accuracy on the move lowered by 60% (from (usually) 50%)

WM:
- Reorganised command tree unlocks
- Grenade volley of Stormtroopers is now unlocked with veterancy unlock
- Removed all Tigers
- Added a new reward option for Blitzkrieg doctrine: StuH42 (available from Tank Factory, 480MP 60F) or StuPa (available from Heavy tank factory, 600MP 50Ammo 100F)
- Added reward option for Blitzkrieg doctrine: Panther D (cheaper, faster, no top MG does not require Heavy Factory upgrade) or Panther A
- Added Panther G Ace call-in (instead of Tiger Ace) - fully upgraded Panther G with Tank Commander inside; one at a time
- StuG III now has Mark Target ability
- Drop smoke ability of StuGIII no longer requires StuG to face the position where the smoke is deployed
- Suppression Stormtroopers are now unlocked with Stormtrooper Halftrack (do not require separate unlock)
- Suppression Stormtroopers can no longer be called in from command panel (available only from Stormtrooper Halftrack)
- Demolition Stormtroopers now require separate unlock (can be still called in from command pannel)
- Demolition Stormtroopers callin now states that the ability needs 4 free Pop points (from incorrect 6)
- Added a Stuka bomber ability (135 ammo, 180 seconds cooldown)
- Added an unlock which equips all StuGs/PIV H/J/Panthers with Wolfram ammunition
- Added a Command PIV (requires Tank factory production + PIVH H/J unlocks in Command tree)
- Removed the option to build regular bunkers
- Added the ability to build repair stations (a light bunker which is built with repair engineers who automatically repair damaged vehicles nearby; cannot be garrisoned)
- WM spotter now has his own portrait
- Lowered cost of Ostwind to 400MP 55F(from 500MP 55F)
- Mass production no longer lowers the cost of Ostwind
- Panzer IV F2 has now base damage same as PIV H/J
- Lowered HP of all squad members of AT rifle squad to 60 (from 80)
- AT rifle squad leader now uses Kar98 (from MP40)
- Removed 46mm AT grenade from AT rifle squad
- Lowered maximum range of GrB39 to 60 (from 65)
- Lowered accuracy of GrB39 to 85%/75%/65/55% (from 100%/90%/80%/70%)
- Increased aim time of GrB39 to 1-2 seconds (from 1)
- Lowered projectile speed of GrB39 grenades to 50 (from 75)
- Removed building options from GrB39 squad
- GrB39 squad no longer receives bonuses when shooting from camo
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As we said, the doctrines will be introduced one by one which means that the newly introduced doctrines will be stronger than most (if not all) the current doctrines which still have their "weak spots" more vulnerable. That being said, we are aware that this new BK doctrine will have easier time defeating other doctrines - especially Brits. The game is playable but this release is more for you to see what you will have access to and what the general feel of the doctrine will be - for obvious balance reasons, "serious" games are not recommended until at least one more doctrine gets released. However some test games played and feedback (if stuff works as it is meant to work etc.) would be great :)

Next reworked doctrine will be the USA Armor doctrine.

Have fun ;)
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 02 Apr 2019, 09:05

I didn't play it, but I definetely will go for Stupa, after battlegroup and Panzer H (If I will need Panzer at all), because Stupa is a tiger with arty range and good damage against other tanks. Anyway, changes look awesome, keep it up! I imagined before a Blitz with more abilities on focus breahtrough and mobility, than just tanks, so it came to life :D :D
Last edited by Mr. FeministDonut on 02 Apr 2019, 09:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2019, 09:24

The thing is that StuPa is available later - you can only build it from the heavy tank factory. To get it you also need 7CPs which means that the opponent will be able to field some counters already.

Anyway, StuPa is meant to work as defense killer - a support in your unit composition not the main combat unit. If this is not the case some changes will be needed. Your strategy may work in this version, where the other docs are not present, but later with other docs this strategy will not be the "ultimate BK doc move".
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 02 Apr 2019, 09:28

Stupa + blitzkrieg ability, just interesting how will fast it shoot. Anyway, time will show us

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Apr 2019, 10:25

I went throught the first lines of the text and i have a few concerns.

1. Why is a call in ability that provides random units put in a tank unlock line. The Tank IV´s seem to come pretty late. Meanwhile 3 CP for a cheap MP only call in enables you to spam the shit out of your opponents without ever requiring any fuel.
2. While point 1 mentions the early spam capabilities without any fuel required, the Panthers are again veery late. Long barreld tank IV´s as well as Panthers are later avaialble than 76 shermans, jacks and pershings. Even inf doc can get 76 before BK gets long barreld tank IV´s. Tank IV J/H should be early available and the core of this doc along with stugs.
3. Panther Ace, Tank IV command tank and Stupa? It requires CP but hell. Thats crazy when stupa is still working as it does now. Stuhs and stupa make games generally a lot more campy rather than speeding up anything due to cost and due to the fact that you can attack while camp at the same time. Stupa and command tank IV is just over all tops.
4. I would put the battlegroup call in, Blitzkrieg ability, Stupa and stuka in one line, the bottom line.
5. I wouldnt give an axis doctrine, that is more focused on overruning defenses, Wolfram rounds for free. Thats good for the TH doc but idk why it should be there for a doctrine that isnt primarily designed to do so. I would rather extend the bottom line.


My suggestion would be:

Top line:
Tank IV H/J (1 CP), Tank IV command (1 CP), Panther (3CP), Panther ace (2 CP). (i am not even sure if i would add one but well, all like these call in super elite units, i dont bc i throws all that fuel balance over board. I would make units either producable or, in case its an ace, a one time call in only).

Bottom line:
Blitzkrieg ability (1 CP), Battlegroup call in (1 CP and only provides stug III and volks with MP40 instead of random unit spawn), Suka bomber (1 CP), Stupa unlock (2 CP).


Stuh and Stupa are not reward units and available together. Stuh only requires either 0 CP, Blitzkrieg ability or Battlegroup call in. But stuh and stupa cant share the same unlock in my opinion.

Unit changes to stuh and stupa:
1. 60 range both
2. Stuh will essentially be a stug III in terms of abilities and gets a bit more HP
3. Stupa gets better support abilites for inf and +200 HP.

You can boost the range again with Tank IV command tank up to 70 again. So with 85 basic range you would get 95 range :shock: ...... 95 range oneshot unit.... holly mother.

and perhaps BK ability and then quick shoother 95 range sniper oneshot 150 mm.... thumbs up.



Question:
Whats with Ostwind? Will this doc afterall be one of the best AA docs with cheap Ostwinds that accompany Panthers? I mean.... Panther, Command Tank IV, ostwind and perhaps a stupa? Thats the ultimate camp combo. Nobody will attack with this doc and all with just sit there and stockpile that stuff.

Edit II:
Oh, it gets even cheaper at default...

stug/ostwind/stupa hurrah.



As i see it currently: People willl first rush battlegroup simply to spam enough stugs and Tank IV´s without spending any fuel. Then rush Panther and finally Stupa. Ostwind and Command tank IV wont be missing ofc. Stugs, Ostwind Command tank IV first to hold your ground, then Panthers and stupa, what comes first depends whats needed.
It becomes the most nasty armor doc in the entire game.

I mean you can essentially get Stug IV and Ostwind just like that, then 3 CP and hello stupa...... stug IV´s, 50 mm guns, Puma and a stupa... thats just horrifying.. and thats for 3 CP in total. I must be in the wrong movie.

Mr. FeministDonut wrote:Stupa + blitzkrieg ability, just interesting how will fast it shoot. Anyway, time will show us

+ command tank.... 95 range, hura.


Edit:
Can you give smoke to US command car as well? IIrc it doesnt have it.... Now CW command tank has it as well as axis command tank, just US has to pay an unlock and then 50 ammo per tank use. I guess this sweet command tank IV can drop smoke much cheaper.


And cheap repair station was something i would have guessed for armor doc. Like a AB HQ style for 150 MP just that there would be repair units as well as being able to recruit engineers, repair engineers and combat engineers.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2019, 11:49

Concerns noted.

Not all the buffs stack with each other and some units are (or should be) excluded from the the buff effects. It is possible that we missed some of the possible combinations which may turn out to be OP but that is what the feedback period is for.

StuPa + possible buffs is one such example. During the test games nobody really abused it the way you describe but if it proves to be a problem, changes in performance are ofcourse possible. Also, this update does not include the ammo upkeep for howitzers and arty units and possibly the direct-shooting howitzers could get the upkeep too. In that case the StuPa would have a quite big ammo upkeep and thus would be dragging down the ammo income and thus limiting the usage of other abilities so going for StuPa every time would not always be a no-brainer.

Command car could get smoke, not a bad idea.

Armor doc has (will have) different way of repairing their stuff in the field, static repair point is not needed there. WM docs have just Pios who die easily in the field so this is another option. The station itself does not repair anything, the spawned engineers do the repairs and they can be killed and then need time to respawn. The station itself has a lot less HP than the normal bunkers so it is a lot easier to destroy too. The repairt bunker may sound strong on a paper but in praxis it is not something you absolutely need to get in every game.

Finally - you make once again apocalliptic predictions without knowing anything about the planned changes for the other doctrines. Yes, in the current beta (where is one reworked doctrine and the rest remains untouched) the BK doc has advantage. With the introduction of changes to other docs this advantage will slowly dissapear.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Apr 2019, 12:52

MarKr wrote:Concerns noted.


good

Not all the buffs stack with each other and some units are (or should be) excluded from the the buff effects. It is possible that we missed some of the possible combinations which may turn out to be OP but that is what the feedback period is for.

StuPa + possible buffs is one such example. During the test games nobody really abused it the way you describe but if it proves to be a problem, changes in performance are ofcourse possible. Also, this update does not include the ammo upkeep for howitzers and arty units and possibly the direct-shooting howitzers could get the upkeep too. In that case the StuPa would have a quite big ammo upkeep and thus would be dragging down the ammo income and thus limiting the usage of other abilities so going for StuPa every time would not always be a no-brainer.


1. a stupa with 90 range. I am pretty sure its a thing in late game and stalemates. Thats a massive advantage they will get here.
2. And that upkeep would get neutralized due to wolfram rounds at default. I dont see for what BK doc will need ammo besides trading fuel for ammo... Panther D with wolfram at default and Stupa... 100 ammo for skirts and thats it. Why should anyone spend ammo for stuka planes that can get shot down or grenades when there is a 150 mm that costs a bit upkeep but whipes all inf and emplacments without risk and easily.


Command car could get smoke, not a bad idea.

ok, good.


Armor doc has (will have) different way of repairing their stuff in the field, static repair point is not needed there. WM docs have just Pios who die easily in the field so this is another option. The station itself does not repair anything, the spawned engineers do the repairs and they can be killed and then need time to respawn. The station itself has a lot less HP than the normal bunkers so it is a lot easier to destroy too. The repairt bunker may sound strong on a paper but in praxis it is not something you absolutely need to get in every game.


I am curious. Armor doc is already quite.. lets say micro itense with all that closing in, squishy cars and tanks etc. Often i send them just back to base bc i just cant micro two tanks there, retreat with a thrid and run my rep engis all accross the map. So i thought about some sort of forward maintanance repair shop that looks like barracks and where i can rebuild engi/rep engi squads and reinforce them as well as having it there to send tanks and vehicles while the fixed maintanance guys rep my stuff. I always found rep bunkers super usefull just very expensive. In vcoh i spammed them a lot for 150 MP and 50 ammo. Three of them kept my tanks fleet afloat. Now we got this in BK as well at a usefull price which is good, but the doc where this repair duty is the greatest micro work still hasnt got a forward maintance repair shop.

Finally - you make once again apocalliptic predictions without knowing anything about the planned changes for the other doctrines. Yes, in the current beta (where is one reworked doctrine and the rest remains untouched) the BK doc has advantage. With the introduction of changes to other docs this advantage will slowly dissapear.


I wrote about it in steam with "Not". He said the same but i have no idea what would change so drastically so that it would be fair to stand a chance vs 3 CP stupa/stug/ostwind combo.

Rangers require 4 cp already and get shred by ostwind alone at that time. Just a bit later and stupa joins... at that moment you dont have to come up with inf at all.... so inf can just hope for lucky arty shots here but in the long run their hows wont kill these tanks as fast as they can get rebuild.

Armor doc? Its going to be a "pershing only thing again". I mean there would be two cheap 600 MP tanks, Stupa and Panther D with both panther armor. Shermans are not an option alone due to stupa that takes out one long before it can fire back.... and even if they will bounce most of the time from these units. Pershing? It also drains half HP by that 150 mm before getting into reach. The Panther would then just need to hit the pershing once. Not to mention that both units cost less than a Pershing.




Since i play BK back to 2011 there have always been games with teams (eg SLO and Buco etc) that all just rushed panthers and stupa. Panthers and heavy tanks in generally supported by stupas was just pure massacre stopped only by arty. And now we got them both in a single doc that can trade even fuel and need just 1200 MP to get them. I dont see how things will be different now when its been an issue for as long as i can remember.
One of my last played games was also such a situation... panthers and stupa at bliwja turned the game alone..
Why should it be different now?



I would at least trade stuka plane with assault artillery. I dont see a use for a stuka plane after 6 CP that gets shot down easily whereas i get an all raping stupa right after 3 CP. Stuka planes are more usefull mid game, before all got AA, while stupa is more a late game thing and too powerfull in mid game.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2019, 14:30

I remember few years ago as you said that "everyone talks about changes theoretically and gets tons of responses about theoretical issues - people talk like this for ages and nothing ever gets implemented because the debate is stuck on the theory talks. Instead it should be tried in the game to see if it works" (not a direct quote but that was the main point) now we give you some changes to try them out in a real game and you are getting back to the talks about potential issues without even trying it which is the thing you originally criticised :roll: .

Well, as I said:
MarKr wrote:Concerns noted.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Volksgrenadiers » 02 Apr 2019, 15:20

its sounds good but i think it will not work so good, if player dont win be rush he will later no stand a chance vs US or CW better armor Pershings,Jacksons,Comets..... can 1shot Panters and here you had only Panters so it will be disadavantge and it will not much help if there will be command tank or no,without teammate helps it cant survive longer games.

WM at squad- Why remove Mp40? every squad had commander that had smg even in vanilla game in squad there was 4 rifles and 1 mp44 i dont see valid reason to remove it,i this in Bk we have not enough units that can have mp40 what was standart smg on other side allies have lot of thompsons.

Stuka-well i would add some more hp it can eb down be 50.cal from tank top so in lot of moments it will be waste of ammo.

Ostwind: Well why not but i think its still not much good and have weaker reaction on planes on many maps then US CW AA that shoot on every Axis plane that show even before map.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby TheUndying » 02 Apr 2019, 15:56

Volksgrenadiers wrote:Ostwind: Well why not but i think its still not much good and have weaker reaction on planes on many maps then US CW AA that shoot on every Axis plane that show even before map.


One thing I agree on: 50cals on Shermans and especially the 50cal base emplacement for US are WAY too effective against planes. No other AA compares to them when it comes to bringing down planes and that needs a nerf.

BTT: Interesting changes, my WM buddies will be interested in that. I personally can't wait to see PE changes. :D

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2019, 16:19

@Volksgrenadiers: How is that different from the way the doctrine was before? The BK doctrine had Tigers and Panthers - both can be one-shot by Pershings and 17 pounders. In terms of statistics, when you have Tiger vs Pershing, the Pershing has better chance to win. Pershing has very good penetration against Tigers even without AP ammo active. Tigers now have more HP but the 90mm gun damage can still easily kill a Tiger in one shot (it usually needs 2 shots but 1 shot kills are possible). Pershing is more similar in performance to Panthers - they have similar chances to penetrate each other's armor, usually need 2 penetrative shots to kill the other.

MP40 was removed because the squad was used to hunt down infantry. The AT squad should kill vehicles but it should not be too effective against infantry because killing infantry is not their role. It can still kill vehicles quite well but they are no longer as self-sufficient and Rambo as they used to be.

@TheUndying:
We'll have a look at it.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 02 Apr 2019, 18:55

Volksgrenadiers wrote:its sounds good but i think it will not work so good, if player dont win be rush he will later no stand a chance vs US or CW better armor Pershings,Jacksons,Comets..... can 1shot Panters and here you had only Panters so it will be disadavantge and it will not much help if there will be command tank or no,without teammate helps it cant survive longer games.


Oh, perhaps you noticed that you arent alone. You are not supposed to beat CW and US by your own. Your mates can back you up with hetzers or IV/70 which will do a short job of comets.

Also, gl with 650 MP paper Jackson and 830 MP Pershing vs 600 MP stupa and 660 MP Panther. The jacks is taken out by stupa instantly before it can get a shot at it. And one pershing will probably not beat pershing and Panther alone.


I think this doc is going to become the most potent doc for late games. Stupa and Panther is a thing for years already. There was a reason why old devs had plans to make Terror doc a inf focused doc with Panzer IV´s only and Stupa. It had a damn good reason.


WM at squad- Why remove Mp40? every squad had commander that had smg even in vanilla game in squad there was 4 rifles and 1 mp44 i dont see valid reason to remove it,i this in Bk we have not enough units that can have mp40 what was standart smg on other side allies have lot of thompsons.


Its an AT squad. Perhaps we should have asked for Boys getting also a thompson right away?
I agree that MP40s´are too few considering it was the main close range weapon and used during assaults. But we have tons of STGs on every fucking squad, so who needs MP40 anyway?

Ostwind: Well why not but i think its still not much good and have weaker reaction on planes on many maps then US CW AA that shoot on every Axis plane that show even before map.



The turret rotates very quick in AA mode, its really fast. I dont have issues taking planes down.

I would even argue that Def doc should get Ostwinds for 450 MP in exchange for the lost stupa and to give def doc good AA weapons.



MarKr wrote:I remember few years ago as you said that "everyone talks about changes theoretically and gets tons of responses about theoretical issues - people talk like this for ages and nothing ever gets implemented because the debate is stuck on the theory talks. Instead it should be tried in the game to see if it works" (not a direct quote but that was the main point) now we give you some changes to try them out in a real game and you are getting back to the talks about potential issues without even trying it which is the thing you originally criticised :roll: .



And i remember where you said that you change stuff carefully step by step. And Stupa/Panther is not a "theory", its something as old as BK itself, just that it required two people at least to pull that card.

So that test is.... its reality since the very first days.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 02 Apr 2019, 21:49

That seems to be amazing! I might get back to BK soon;)

I really like all the changes, they should bring some fresh air into the mod that has been missing for ages. Also I’m glad that you got rid of silly idea with “specialized” doctrines, which obviously make the game frustrating and boring as there are ultimate counters against certain docs which are completely missing some capabilities. Teamplay is super beneficial and essential even without the concept of “one doc cannot survive without support of the other one”, this also limits possible doc combinations which in 2v2 sticked to Luft-Terror, BK-SE, RAF/AB - Tanks years ago.

P.S. Don’t listen to Hawks too much, he will never be happy and can actually play his own version of the mod:D

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Gurkenkilla » 02 Apr 2019, 22:08

Some bugs I have noticed so far:

- Panther Ausf. D2 has no voice
- StuG III is unaffected by BK ability

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mofetagalactica
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby mofetagalactica » 02 Apr 2019, 23:17

I really like the changes to this doc, the new design is fun to use and makes scense for a breakthrought doc.

I agree with the stupa staying on bk doc, but i would seriously change his performance,my experiences tell me and im pretty sure no-one uses this unit the way you think mark (anti emplacement) instead they use it as an anti-tank and anti-inf outranging unit.

I would also suggest to change the scheme of adding 1 doc at a time for 2 at a time.

cheers, thank you for this update can't wait for more to come.

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 02 Apr 2019, 23:30

@Gurkenkilla: thanks for report, we'll look into it

@mofeta: Yes, the StuPa will need some tuning on its own and also in its performance in combination with the doctrinal abilities. Several aspects of this unit kinda slipped through but we'll think of something to bring it to its place till the next update.
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MenciusMoldbug
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 03 Apr 2019, 00:07

On Stupa (and Stuh):

- Needs its veterancy fixed/that spread reduction just has to go so it doesn't turn into pin-point 150mm sniper.

- Maybe it should finally get proper cover table targetting so it doesn't have perfect accuracy vs infantry in green/yellow cover OR it should have a hard time hitting moving stuff.

- Maybe it shouldn't hit the ground all the time when it's shooting uphill because it makes hitting emplacements/AT/Support Weapons on not-flat terrain impossible.

The panzerbusche39_at_team_leader.rgd should have +5 HP. Most squad leaders in BK have +5/+10 more HP compared to the regular members (at least as far as I know; some exceptions might apply). It's a tiny buff to let them be a bit more survivable but doesn't change much in the larger equation.

One thing that bothers me is that if I like P4 H's I have a huge incentive to use the call-in because it comes before getting the tank. So If I want to go straight to making cheaper P4's from sturm I still have to use the call-in once or twice because otherwise I'm unlocking that ability for no reason. Imo it would have been better to have it as P4 H -> Off-Map Call-in -> Panther -> Panther Ace Call-in.

The single stuka needs its 1000 KG bomb buffed. I know I said it before but even emplacements can survive it by having them overrepaired before the bomb drops on them. That way the crew dies but the emplacement itself still has like 10-20% HP left with which to be remanned and repaired again.

Also for armor doctrine changes, please put something else other than tanks into it. Something that can kill bunkers/AT emplacements/Tons of Paks as that's the biggest weakness of armor. It should be some sort of infantry unit that can lob satchel charges around because using democharges with normal engineers never works quite well because of how long they take to setup (and how easily the guy planting it can get killed and 'reset' having to plant the charge).

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby MarKr » 03 Apr 2019, 01:07

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Imo it would have been better to have it as P4 H -> Off-Map Call-in -> Panther -> Panther Ace Call-in.

Original post:
MarKr wrote:(It is quite possible that in the next update this will be restructured to "PIV H/J" (2CP) -> "Offmap combat group" (2CP) -> "Panther A/D2" (2CP) -> "Panther G Ace" (2CP) because the latest alpha feedback suggests the ability is still too spammable too early, but this feedback was received only after the beta had been uploaded so it is not in this release)
;)
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Shanks
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Shanks » 03 Apr 2019, 03:08

Good job, although it hurts me that the stupa is available in bk and that the AT squad has 60 HP, I honestly do not like it, but let's see what happens

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Viper » 03 Apr 2019, 08:34

tested this locally with some friends. found some problems. and i shared the link of this topic with tiger. but he doesnt seem available now. i will wait him to go online so we can test together. i will report later.

the changes look good. but i think it can be done better.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Warhawks97 » 03 Apr 2019, 09:09

mofetagalactica wrote:
I agree with the stupa staying on bk doc, but i would seriously change his performance,my experiences tell me and im pretty sure no-one uses this unit the way you think mark (anti emplacement) instead they use it as an anti-tank and anti-inf outranging unit.


thx, thats the point.

I would also suggest to change the scheme of adding 1 doc at a time for 2 at a time.

Yes, one axis, one allied at once.



MenciusMoldbug wrote:On Stupa (and Stuh):

- Needs its veterancy fixed/that spread reduction just has to go so it doesn't turn into pin-point 150mm sniper.



you mean the scatter, right? Even if its a miss its scatter is so low that it still hits close enough.

- Maybe it should finally get proper cover table targetting so it doesn't have perfect accuracy vs infantry in green/yellow cover OR it should have a hard time hitting moving stuff.


I think that should be the exact strenght of units like scott, stupa and stuh. They have a massive trajectory that makes it hard hitting anything at range and even harder to hit moving stuff, but you can loop your shells right into cover and pillboxes.

These units should be exceptionally good in fighting units in cover with less accuracy/damage penalty vs units in cover, they should be good in providing support for nearby inf with abilities like assault/suppressive fire and stationary fire mode, and they should be very good in urban warfare and against garrisoned units with good chances (esspecially stupa) to take out an entire house in a single shot with all its guys inside.

Perhaps the shells could have a slower travel speed bc atm it looks like the shells are flying lightspeed.
The downside should clearly be accuracy at range (which i afterall would prefer to be 60 but boosted with stationary mode and command tank so that it can reach 75 range at the end... but this achieved by abilties and not "no brainer default.") and and accuracy against all moving stuff at long range, what you already said.



- Maybe it shouldn't hit the ground all the time when it's shooting uphill because it makes hitting emplacements/AT/Support Weapons on not-flat terrain impossible.


yeah.

One thing that bothers me is that if I like P4 H's I have a huge incentive to use the call-in because it comes before getting the tank. So If I want to go straight to making cheaper P4's from sturm I still have to use the call-in once or twice because otherwise I'm unlocking that ability for no reason. Imo it would have been better to have it as P4 H -> Off-Map Call-in -> Panther -> Panther Ace Call-in.


yes.

The single stuka needs its 1000 KG bomb buffed. I know I said it before but even emplacements can survive it by having them overrepaired before the bomb drops on them. That way the crew dies but the emplacement itself still has like 10-20% HP left with which to be remanned and repaired again.


The 1000 KG bomb should take out any emplacment, even the buffed one from RE. The stuka is already slow and squishy enough, when it hits it should kill.

And i would afterall unlock stuka before assault artillery. Simply bc then you can much easier perform blitzkrieg maneuvers with battlegroup call in and stuka planes.

Also for armor doctrine changes, please put something else other than tanks into it. Something that can kill bunkers/AT emplacements/Tons of Paks as that's the biggest weakness of armor. It should be some sort of infantry unit that can lob satchel charges around because using democharges with normal engineers never works quite well because of how long they take to setup (and how easily the guy planting it can get killed and 'reset' having to plant the charge).


Perhaps the combat engineers get moved to armor doc with some nice special abilties.
And it would be good to have a 75 mm jumbo in armor doc. It would be great in taking out AT guns and stuff.



Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:
P.S. Don’t listen to Hawks too much, he will never be happy and can actually play his own version of the mod:D


Lots of SVT guys belong to the Stupa abuser. When you get two SVT guys you can be sure that there will be Panthers and Stupa. (And as ally certainly a Priest). Thats why i currently dont join games with two SVT guys sticking on axis side. No point in playing it and absolutely no fun to play. Just base camp or in front of it and then panther/stupa.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Mr. FeministDonut » 03 Apr 2019, 10:03

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:P.S. Don’t listen to Hawks too much, he will never be happy and can actually play his own version of the mod:D

Hawks is right, sorry.
The factor why Stupa was unnoticed is that because it was in unpopular doctrine with a nearly useless units that's somehow balanced OP-ness of Stupa.

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 03 Apr 2019, 11:49

Is Stupa really such a big thing now?

I've been playing quiet much lately and havent got into a single 2v2 game against it (i dont exclude that all this balance trash ur talking about happens at 3v3, that is also why i never join 3v3 matches). CAUSE ITS BEEN LIKE ARTY-TANKY mess since ages.

Nothing certain to blame there, but recent (what left) player pool and their creativity. Imo.

Literally, its either no one does DEF doc, or if u eventually get someone, he rush Howitzers or/and Grille. Everyone ignore rest of the brenches.

New trend for playing that ive noticed is spamming T3 (i believe fact, that u have less Motorpool agressive play from Allies now due to ATsquads and that mid game is now lot easier for Axis)units.

Blitz doc is in favour now. Im not even sure why u have to change anything with BKdoc now lol. (not saying im opposite to changes)

What i would add though in a small contrast to my previous words, is that Stupa been always a weird unit, as well as every long shot "arty"ingame tbh.
I remember when i joined bkmod, once u notice it on field, with a proper use of Scout unit against 76mm ATgun/17pounder - u go either for ABdoc/bomb run, or INF/Arty, and thing would either work or not.

But times got changed, arty got more expensive and bombs,in my taste, are almost useless now (with amount of splash they do). You cant even rush with Zooks on it now, im not saying it is a huge issue, again, people more often get Grille and 1click arty anything.

Maybe that is what cause frustration with Stupa, inability to safely take it out as it used to be before, and that, in its way, gave courage to most of campers to use it NOT only against emplacements.
As again, i recall completely different fact of things.
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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby Gurkenkilla » 04 Apr 2019, 22:50

StuPa does not require the Heavy Factory upgrade to be build. Is this intended?

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Re: 5.1.8 beta (Blitzkrieg doctrine rework)

Postby kwok » 05 Apr 2019, 08:04

Hi everyone. Glad to see the response has been generally positive on the rework. A LOT of time into figuring this out, I can comfortably say that 95% of the comments and concerns mentioned already have been at least discussed but maybe no decision made or it is potentially done to test some hypothesis we made on the game. Balance tweaks will be made on the way, just be patient.

Few things I wanted to add. As markr mentioned these reworks are going to go for well rounded design, which means the best way to test for now is actually to play 1v1s. Markr mentioned there will be a one-by-one release schedule as opposed to an all out rework. This is done to not just keep games comfortable and let players adapt, but also to experiment and test the levers we are pulling to make an impact on the game. We already had a long discussion on a release schedule way before even starting rework designs. One-by-one, two-by-two and different stages of release are set up but might change based on test results. Originally I intended to show a guide to blitz doc as a part of the release, but I’m not going to post it because trying to see how players can find strategies and break points without the bias of the designers would be good in testing some really key principles used to design the reworks. So be patient with the releases and ply a lot of 1v1s! Post replays please! We already know slightest changes cause huge balance shifts, these reworks are major changes so we must be careful how to execute this as to not break the game. The more info you give us about how the game plays (and that means replays not just speculative walls of texts) the better we can build the future doctrines.


Sorry to the dev team I’ve been so couldn’t answer questions. Thanks for dealing with everyone. I’ll be back to say more and test with you all in maybe a little less than week.



About the stupa. There are already a lot of ideas on how to change the stupa, we intended to make tweaks before releasing the beta but decided to leave it as is since players are particularly comfortable or know about the unit as is. As doctrine reworks are focused more on Structural changes rather than balance, we moved it but didn’t change its performance. Likely, you’ll see some stupa adjustments either during or after armor doc changes.

About veternacy. Across the board that could use a rework and that’s a lot of meticulous work. Those are likely to be addressed at least after completed WM and USA reworks. Maybe later.

About the call in spam, it has been known for a while now, even during alpha testing. It’s a really tricky ability that has moved around so many times throughout and we still haven’t quite figured out it’s plcement. An idea came around later (as markr mentioned feedback post beta release). Still in discussion, playing games and showing replays with help. Understanding the timing and typical fuel consumption of the reworked doctrine is something we want to know more about to tweak the ability.

About the Stuka bomber, it is available so late because it’s and indirect and sometimes unstoppable way of killing emplacements which was not within the theme of blitz doc. Blitz doc was not meant to be played via camping, so giving it any indirect means of offense is a stretch. As of now there is no intention to move it unless tests prove otherwise. Panthers and stuh42s/stupa provide plenty of methods for eliminating AA emplacements or cars to pave way for the Stuka. We can look into the effectiveness of the 50cal against planes but we don’t expect that the Stuka will be helpful against armor doc anyways. Balances for 50cals against will be considered for a team game reason which will have to be later. It’s easier to focus on 1v1s first then move onto team games.


Edit: when I say play 1v1s the most helpful will be USA vs WM games. Brits and PE are a mess in terms of design so we will get to those much later
Last edited by kwok on 05 Apr 2019, 10:11, edited 3 times in total.


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