5.1.6 beta4

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MarKr
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5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 20 Nov 2018, 15:44

Hello,

some of you may have noticed that BK beta branch downloaded an update. This is just a smaller patch which adresses mainly the problems with "howitzers do not hit anything". There is a slight change for static howitzers - they fire 8 shots in a barrage instead of previous 6 and they also fire the shots faster; before the change the static howitzers had one of the longest reload times of all artillery units.

In tests it has happened to me very rarely that no shot from a barrage would not hit the place where I clicked so hopefully this will be OK. Remeber that howitzers lower their arty spread with veterancy so once you get some veterancy levels the shots should hit closer to the point where you click.

Another change is availability and effectiveness of Goliaths. They can now be accessed in Kriegbarracks and Kampfgruppe Kompanie. They still remain buildable in bunkers and PE can still deploy them from Ammunition Halftracks (though here the price was set to 50MP 50Ammo from 100 ammo). WM Def doc can newly deploy them from the 28mm Halftrack too.

We will keep this up for about 3 days, if no big problems are reported, 5.1.6 will be released.

Changelog:
General:
- Reviewed scatter settings for shell artillery
- Increased Goliath AoE to 10 (from 8)
- Increased damage done to vehicles by Goliath
- Goliath now has higher chance to detrack vehicles and to damage or destroy engines
- Fixed a bug where LeiG18 used wrong ammo for barrage which was significantly weaker than its direct-shooting ammo
- All static howitzers (US/WM 105mm, 25 pounder) now fire 8 shots per barrage (from 6)
- All static howitzers (US/WM 105mm, 25 pounder) now reload in 3-4 seconds (from 6-7)

WM:
- Goliath can now be built in Krieg Barracks (requires Assault Phase upgrade)
- Added an option to drop a Goliath to PzB41 Halftrack (Defensive Doctrine)

PE:
- Goliath can now be built in Logistic Kompanie (requires Infantry Support building)
- For Ammunition HT lowered the price of "Place Goliath" ability to 50MP 50ammo (from 100 ammo)
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 20 Nov 2018, 18:10

8 shots of 105 mm, with the same precision of 5.1.4 version? it sounds scary wow

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 20 Nov 2018, 18:24

Where does it say the precision is back at 5.1.4 level?
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby mofetagalactica » 21 Nov 2018, 02:01

Tested a few games vs IA scatter is better now. Didn't found any bug.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby The New BK Champion » 21 Nov 2018, 02:07

New goliaths are very effective now, finally there is a reason to build them.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 21 Nov 2018, 11:59

thanks to all these changes, literally any emplacement is worth nothing .... that was the goal? .. then I ask another question ... the emplacement are only adornment now?....markr answer please

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 21 Nov 2018, 12:22

The detail of your inquiry is awesome. What changes do you mean? You say that it is because of "all the changes" - does that mean all the changes together from all betas sofar? If so, how is it possible that you have only discovered this after the last update? If it is just about the lalst update changes, how do they all make emplacements pointless? Arty still scatters more than before so that should not make emplacements any more useless. So does this concern just the Goliaths?

Shanks answer please
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 21 Nov 2018, 12:40

from the beta in which the mortar was nerf, there it all began, if someone throws a smoke screen now it is difficult to prevent them from touching your emplacement, even with infantry around the emplacement, normally in my case, I used the mortar to defend my units and To attack at the same time, but this is no longer possible because you run too fast with the ammunition (I think that was the real goal of changing the mortar, so that there is not too much arty), then came the flamethrower that can kill in less than 1 second the units of the emplacement or units in the houses, and now the 105mm comes, it's great, 8 shot, and it destroys any emplacement quickly, for example pantertum AA emplacement-88 mm emplacement- etc ... in theory these three changes combined make any emplacement in the game is a white too easy to annihilate

In addition the def doctrine of WM, suffers a lot with these changes,because its strength is precisely the emplacement


Now can you answer me again?

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 21 Nov 2018, 15:06

This is sort of funny because in another topic I just got critized for "ignoring the practical dimension over the theory" and now you tell me here that in theory it could be a problem... :?
Shanks wrote:(I think that was the real goal of changing the mortar, so that there is not too much arty)
Not really, the request for a change (which came from players btw.) was based on the argument of "Mortars are brainless units because you just shoot barrages everywhere because the barrage doesn't cost anything) and since you say
Shanks wrote:this is no longer possible because you run too fast with the ammunition
I would say it fullfills its purpose.

Shanks wrote:then came the flamethrower that can kill in less than1 second the units of the emplacement or units in the houses
You can still place lines of barbed wires wich obstruct the movement for flame infantry, doctrines with reliance on emplacements have usually access to more types of mines which can be used to stop charging infantry even in smoke.

Shanks wrote:and now the 105mm comes, it's great, 8 shot, and it destroys any emplacement quickly, for example pantertum AA emplacement-88 mm emplacement- etc
and this is the theory part - yes, static 105mm howitzer now fires 8 shots - if you shoot it on a Pantherturm and IF all of them hit directly, they will deal 4 824 damage to the bunker and the bunker has 5 000HP, so it would barely survive it. On the other hand the 105mm howitzer does not have accuracy of Grille so the chance that all 8 shots land directly on top of the bunker is like what? 0.01%?

Shooting at emplacements is similar - on direct hit it can mess up the emplacement a lot with the damage of 600, but this direct hit area is only "2" in diameter (which is a bit smaller than the size of a Jeep), if it lands further than the "2" then it already deals 251 or less damage, WM def doc (which you spoke of) can also get the "improve emplacements" unlock which increases the HP of the emplacements, improving their survival chances.

So far it is only you who can see this as a problem. I talked to some people on Discord and they said that after few games they adapted to the flamethrowers and don't see it as a problem, neither they see as a problem the mortar change. It is normal that there are people who see something as a problem and some that don't see it as a problem, especially shorty after introduction of new elements. So I would suggest giving more time to people to adapt for the changes and figuring out ways to counter them.
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 21 Nov 2018, 15:32

"talk to some people in discord", I already imagined it ... "put mines", there are ways to easily counteract the mines (you would only lose ammunition with that, you can not use it every 5 seconds ... because you think no one is complaint of the mine of the luft that falls from the sky of luft ????, are counteractable, and it is not so difficult) "make fences", that sounds worse and desperate, and what you told me about the "pantherturm", is the most funny ... you could destroy it in two downloads now (I'm not saying that the 8 shots are going to fall right on the target, it's impossible, but with 4 shots it's enough damage), which means that now it's no use making a pantherturm (only lose resources, without positive results), not to mention that you can still enter with inf to finish it if necessary, and all other emplacement would have the same ending ... let me guess ... you spoke with warhawks mrfeminist or etc in discord ?, come on, they like this beta, in a real pvp, it will be very easy in my opinion, destroy an emplacement now, and the worst of all, this is very bad for def doc

but I just wanted to say it, since most do not have problems with this, we'll see what happens...now that I think about it, I'm practically the only one who plays with the def doctrine in bk, and wins difficult games with the same ...

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 21 Nov 2018, 15:52

OK, correction. Pantherthurm has less HP than regular bunker so yes, it is more susceptible and can die in less hits. Pantherthurm has 3 000HP, 4 direct hits from 105mm deal 2412 damage so you would need 5 direct hits. "Near hit" deals 251,25 damage, even if all 8 shots landed on the "line" where the "direct hit" range ends and the "near hit" range starts, those 8 shots would deal 2 010 which is not enough to kill the Pantherturm.

The damage to bunkers from arty could be lowered though, that is true. Perhaps even damage agains emplacements could go down a little bit but in general a direct hit to emplacement from a howitzer should cause serious damage. You also speak about the Def doctrine - the "8 shots" change was applied to all howitzers so the Def doc 105 has it too. US 105mm howitzer has no was to boost its range, the WM 105 can which means that you can outrange the US static howitzers and that means that once US player uses it against you, you can counter-arty it from a range where the US 105 cannot hit you.

I didn't say that the defense of bunkers should rely entirely on mines, I just said it can be used as a defensive measure.

I did not speak to those you mentioned, the stuff about "flamethrowers are OK" was iirc in conversation with mofeta, the rest not sure anymore. But man, what sort of argument is this?
Shanks wrote:come on, they like this beta
So they "like the beta" and so their opinion is irrelevant but your opinion counts because you don't like the beta? :lol:
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 21 Nov 2018, 16:20

inf doc does not need to emplacement to win, and it does not detract from its war power that its emplacement are weak, contrary to what happens with def doc, I know because I'm a fan of inf doc and I do not think it's a good argument that "your artillery has more reach", inf doc has the sherman obus that is very effective, like def doc has the grille, but that was not the point from the beginning ... at this point I want to stop and i want say "I am not an AXIS fan, I just want a fun game ", on the contrary, there are other players here who only ask for changes in favor of the allies ... on the other hand, I wanted to tell you that if the pantherturm can be destroyed that easy now, the same thing will happen to AA emplacement-88 mm emplacement, for obvious reasons, so, I offer an idea: if you could adjust some things in def doc, how to put new units there, that are not "inf", for example the panzer "N" or a similar unit instead of the emplacement would be good, without necessarily of deleting the emplacement of doc def, or something like this, would be great, if the idea of ​​this is to make the emplacement very vulnerable, I do not object, but in return give something to combat this doctrine, please .... or decrease the price of the grenadier only in this doctrine, or something like that, or that the motorized 37 mm of bk, is only for def doc .. what do you say markr?

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MEFISTO » 21 Nov 2018, 18:49

Hi guys!, I like the new goliath changes, but there is a problem with the goliath, actually a goliath in camo can detect an scout when it is by it or at close range(it is ok) but the problem here is that the scout can't not detect the goliath, actually it also happen with all others units like jeeps infantery.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 21 Nov 2018, 19:00

The goliath will remain invisible regardless of what unit is next to it. Even if you have minesweeper engineers right next to the thing with the guy holding the sweeper right on top of the goliath. He will not be able to 'detect' it.

Also, should the Goliath even have 'vision?' It is currently using the same amount of sight as a a normal tank (about 70) but it looks 'wrong' for a remote controlled bomb/moving mine to be able to see things by itself. Maybe cut it down to 25 or just being able to see things around it.

Def doc has the 75mm KwK halftrack with perma HE now (and new HEAT). So it technically already has an HE halftrack like the 37mm one in blitz.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby mofetagalactica » 22 Nov 2018, 05:35

MenciusMoldbug wrote:The goliath will remain invisible regardless of what unit is next to it. Even if you have minesweeper engineers right next to the thing with the guy holding the sweeper right on top of the goliath. He will not be able to 'detect' it.

Also, should the Goliath even have 'vision?' It is currently using the same amount of sight as a a normal tank (about 70) but it looks 'wrong' for a remote controlled bomb/moving mine to be able to see things by itself. Maybe cut it down to 25 or just being able to see things around it.

Def doc has the 75mm KwK halftrack with perma HE now (and new HEAT). So it technically already has an HE halftrack like the 37mm one in blitz.


True i also tested the goliath recently , i agree it has too much vision for a remotecontrolled bomb, and minesweepers should be able to detect it or even scouts idk.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 22 Nov 2018, 11:26

MenciusMoldbug wrote:Def doc has the 75mm KwK halftrack with perma HE now (and new HEAT). So it technically already has an HE halftrack like the 37mm one in blitz.


to be honest, I did not know that this vehicle could maintain the "HE", it is the type of weapon that I wanted

@MarKr ... a query ... could you put a price on the smoke screen of the mortars? .. something like 10-15-20 ammunition maybe? or just 15 ammunition for all the mortars, regardless of the caliber ... I say this because, really they are effective when covering the infantry, they give good defensive bonuses to be free like now, even if it only costs 10 ammunition use the smoke screen, it would be good with it ... what do others think?

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 22 Nov 2018, 11:49

As for Goliath - the vision could be dropped. Currently it has 60 when standing and 40 when moving, so it could go to 20 when moving and 40 when standing?

The range at which it can be detected is set very low now and be set higher. How close should normal units get to detect it? Same as e.g. Kettenkrad?
MenciusMoldbug wrote:Def doc has the 75mm KwK halftrack with perma HE now (and new HEAT). So it technically already has an HE halftrack like the 37mm one in blitz.
It was mentioned in the beta changelog:
WM:
Experimental
- Removed Wolfram ammo from Sdkfz 234/3 (Puma with stubby 75mm) and 75mm stubby Haftrack
- Added the "Fire HEAT/B" ability to Sdkfz 234/3 (Puma with stubby 75mm) and 75mm stubby Haftrack
- "Timed HE" switched for "HE mode" for Sdkfz 234/3 (Puma with stubby 75mm) and 75mm stubby Haftrack
What is the point here? :?

Shanks wrote:could you put a price on the smoke screen of the mortars?
Also possible, I guess. But I wouldn't go too wild with this, 10-15 ammo max.
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Shanks » 22 Nov 2018, 12:01

MarKr wrote:Also possible, I guess. But I wouldn't go too wild with this, 10-15 ammo max.


it would be good

On the other hand, Mencius mentioned the 75 mm to indicate that I already had what I was asking

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 22 Nov 2018, 12:21

Yes, I see the reference now.
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 22 Nov 2018, 18:45

MarKr wrote:As for Goliath - the vision could be dropped. Currently it has 60 when standing and 40 when moving, so it could go to 20 when moving and 40 when standing?

The range at which it can be detected is set very low now and be set higher. How close should normal units get to detect it? Same as e.g. Kettenkrad?


Vision is up to you, I honestly used the Goliath as a spotter unit because of how good the vision is; which is what bothered me the most. So I'm ok with it going to 40 when standing or less.

Kettenkrad gets revealed at a bypassing range of 7 right? I would put it for Goliath at 5 or 6; slightly less than Kettenkrad. So it doesn't immediately get blown up without doing any damage when some guys with SMG's or cqc weapons walk towards it. Letting US Spotters and CW Dingo have increased detection range when coming close to it would also be a good counter against it.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 22 Nov 2018, 21:19

The Goliath has currently reveal range of "3" and you said it is not enough. So hard to say if "5" will be significant enough change. The Goliath has AoE of "10" so even if it gets discovered at the range of "7" and the infantry opens fire and destroys it, it will still deal quite heavy damage to them.

There still might be a change to Goliaths because as I can see now, they have no damage penalty against infantry in yellow and green cover - it should lower the taken damage at least a little bit. This unit has not been used very much so nobody's reported any weird behavior before so I'm still finding some wonky settings here :/
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Warhawks97 » 22 Nov 2018, 22:01

If the goliath gets right into the crater of the squad they still should die or? Would look funny if that thing drives into that squad sitting in a crater and not killing them bc they have "yellow cover". God i already see that picture: "Goliath fail". "There is a Goliath beneat us, right under our feet!" "Dont worry, we have green cover here." :D

And it should also be hard to hit by guns. It was actually designed to overcome defenses. Would look funny if a 17 pdr emplacments shoots it from huge range when it closes in.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MarKr » 22 Nov 2018, 23:01

Warhawks97 wrote:"There is a Goliath beneat us, right under our feet!" "Dont worry, we have green cover here." :D
Directly followed by "But we're fucked anyway because even with the damage reduction from the cover we're still dead when it explodes this close."
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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby MEFISTO » 23 Nov 2018, 02:50

I think about the smoke that now almost no body use it(I don't know why) because it is free, but if you put price to it I am sure that the 99% of folks here won't use it any more, also I think that the mortars need to cost munition even if you have to pay for the mortars barrage (may be 10 or 15) other way we will have in few minutes(4 or 5) or less, The 81mm German mortar festival in the field.

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Re: 5.1.6 beta4

Postby Viper » 23 Nov 2018, 05:05

im surprised there is still no one talking about these bugs. so it is time to tell.

the 25 pounders are bugged. most of the time they dont want to fire. unless it is very close range and only when they don't have to rotate.

and when the supercharge rounds in royal artillery is unlocked. the yellow circle that indicate the barrage does not get bigger with more range anymore for priest and 25 pounders. it gets bigger normally before the unlock. but after the unlock it will be same on every range.

also after you unlock the super charge rounds for royal artillery. the british mortar emplacement barrage will be free to use and cost nothing.

goliath cant be repaired. and it should be very hard to hit with cannons. any cannons.
only bullets should hit golaith effectively. and it should be detected by scout units. they should be like kettenkrad and dingo.

and you said hotchkiss and stuka will be tweaked more. right? i suggest for beta 5. because beta4 still has problems.


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