5.1.6 beta2

[MarKr]

Reaction is ok and being problem only for newbies, other thing are HMG that cannot leave building immidietaly under any circumstances

My point was to deploy the HMG somewhere near a building (not inside) where it can cover approaches. You can camouflage your HMG anywhere so you can use that. When the opponent tries to run close to a building to burn your soldiers, the HMG opens fire from the camoed location and suppresses the flamer squad quickly - then they either retreat or die, then you relocate your MG. Because of the mortar changes it is not like your HMG squad gets insta-wiped like it probably would be the case in the past.

[Shanks]

@boba..that would be a good idea, but what about the hmg ?, even in small maps (1v1) these flamethrowers would be a problem..besides,i'm not sure, but this also affects tanks with flamethrowers that are fast

@markr...the smoke gives more coverage bonus now? ...too. if so, this is even worse, there are also maps where you need to take a house, because they are strategic points..if you have problems with a unit in a house or heavy coverage (trench), you can use mortar, for that they are there, it is not necessary to increase the damage of the flamethrower ..... wait, they are obsolete now!

I just feel sorry for PE, because you spend fuel to have a miserable mortar, and now you have to spend ammunition too, it's a pity

[MEFISTO]

@ flamethrowers: They are made to kill all infantry inside buildings/emplacements almost imediately so it is not a "bug". The thing is that if they take longer time to kill garisoned soldiers, the flamethrowers will be useless again because all you need to do is equip soldiers with SMGs and they will always kill the soldier with the flamethrower before he can use the weapon.

Have you tried finding some new ways to counter the new flamers or did you play one game with your usualy style, lost a squad to a flamethrower and imediately started thinking "OMG this is OP"? For example the pioneer squads are usually very easy to suppress (if you remember the Axis Pios sometimes get suppressed even by Garands) so if you bring with your squads an HMG team and cover with it the building where your infantry is, they should prevent the flamers from reaching the building.
I am not saying that the flamers must stay as they are, I'm just saying that it would be better to make decisions based on more than just first impressions.

Thanks, I will check it.

Markr I was testing things only, I think (instantly is to fast) I think betwen 2 or 3 seconds it will be fine to kill whole squad, at the same time the flame can kill progresive all squad during those 2 or 3 seg not all at the same time, in that way the squad inside the bilding will have 1 or 2 reaction seconds to leave the building.

Reaction is ok and being problem only for newbies, other thing are HMG that cannot leave building immidietaly under any circumstances

Reaction time is not fine at all because YOU DON'T HAVE TIME TO LEAVE THE BUILDING your squad dead instatly and I am not talking about the MG of course it will dead because they take more time to leave the building and I think it is fine, that is the new flamr purpose.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

No man, you have spotters that could warn you, or at least basic view range to help you react, this should be no problem.

[Death_Kitty]

Huh. Disapointed the 50cal changes didnt go through. Im really happy with these changes though. They are a start. (I love how some people already are worried 50cal is OP. Losing units to US would be a new experience for axis.)

[MEFISTO]

So you are telling me that it is fine that wholle squad 7 or 6 or 5 guys disappears at the same time in les than 1mls, really? It should take between 2 or 3 seconds to kill all of them.

[MarKr]

Huh. Disapointed the 50cal changes didnt go through. Im really happy with these changes though.

They did, only Shermans are messed up but the rest (Jeeps, MG nest, Greyhound, Staghound, M18, Recce, Scott, M20, M21...) are there.

[Shanks]

Huh. Disapointed the 50cal changes didnt go through. Im really happy with these changes though.

They did, only Shermans are messed up but the rest (Jeeps, MG nest, Greyhound, Staghound, M18, Recce, Scott, M20, M21...) are there.

now you ignore me

@boba..what would happen if an infantry comes on one side, and the other comes on the other side ,with flamethrower ?, you'll see, but you can not help it, and you'll lose a strategic point: is stupidity

[Mr. FeministDonut]

I would bomb them with my 200m artillery, then I will drop on them 82nd paratroopers and end the battle with jagdtiger call-in to be sure that flamethrower unit is dead

[MarKr]

now you ignore me

Sorry, but what do you want from me? You tell me that something is "broken", I tell you what can be done or how to counter it and you immediately tell me basically "no, that doesn't work" - I doubt you've even tried. Then you say that it doesn't work because "what if... (some specific scenario)". I can tell you "well, you can try (some counter)" but you will tell me again "that doesn't work because what if (some different scenario)" and we will keep talking for several pages about all those "what if" scenarios. Like now you changed it from "flamer squad kills soldiers inside" to "flamer squad and one other squad kill soldiers inside too" - I will tell you that if you have two squads against one squad in a building, you will need to leave the building too, no matter if they have flamethrower or not because they will just chuck a grenade inside and your squad will die anyway. What will come next? "What if they have some vehicle too"?

So for me it looks like this: if I tell you "try this", you will tell me "lol, doesn't work" and if I tell you nothing you start demanding some answers, which I will give you and you will tell "lol, doesn't work".

[Warhawks97]

Huh. Disapointed the 50cal changes didnt go through. Im really happy with these changes though.

They did, only Shermans are messed up but the rest (Jeeps, MG nest, Greyhound, Staghound, M18, Recce, Scott, M20, M21...) are there.

not 100%. Its not just the top mounted cal 50 on shermans that has not yet been changed (due to an error in saving the files).

There are also a few things not fixed. Its the range bracket thing again. Jeeps iirc looks fine but a few others have still vcoh brackets. That might confuse the game and me too. Like what accuracy is applied from medium to long range? Long and Distant range end at 35 so what accuracy does it have there? 0.2 which is the long range value or does it use 0.15 which is the distant range? I have no idea how the game understands these settings at the end and what accuracy the weapon is supposed to have.

A Jeep for instance has 0.2 accuracy at 45 range and 0.15 at 55 range. Thus it will be vastly better than an M20 cal 50.

Also the normal inf doc cal 50 jeep always had a HMG skin but lmg values. It used schwimmwagens bullet damage and accuracy but the poor cal 50 rate of fire. Now it got cal 50 accuracy and rof values but still has the 20-25 damage of schwimmwagens MG instead of 20-30 the other cal 50´s have. Thus a armored cal 50 has a better average performance as the inf doc jeep cal 50.

So there are a few things to do but its almost done.




Also the penetration values of the hull and coaxial MG´s of allied against skdz 222 and others are not fixed. They used to be better than those of a cal 50 and they are still better (hull/coax pen chance vs sdkfz 222: 35%, new cal 50 pen chance: 25%).

[Shanks]

I would bomb them with my 200m artillery, then I will drop on them 82nd paratroopers and end the battle with jagdtiger call-in to be sure that flamethrower unit is dead

How funny, i had a heart attack of so much laughter .......

@markr..you're right, let's see how this works in pvp....but it would be a shame to wait until the next version,si es OP ,like the disgusting hotchkiss

[Warhawks97]

Its the first time in BK history that Flamethrower can kill something, has a use, gets used and its instantly OP. Thats the real thing that makes me laughing currently. I think when i gonna see a flamethrower squad killing a squad within a second i gonna laugh, no matter if it was my squad that burned. I will laugh bc its the first since i started with BK (2011) that a flamethrower pio squad was somehow usefull and not just a "trolling device".

I will see how it works out but at first i have an exam tomorrow so i cant play much or not at all currently.
What i hope is that we get a very fix hotfix on missing cal 50, fixed cal 50 and fixed hull/coaxial penetration vs axis light vehicles in order to get a feeling how it works out at the end.

[Shanks]

Its the first time in BK history that Flamethrower can kill something, has a use, gets used and its instantly OP. Thats the real thing that makes me laughing currently. I think when i gonna see a flamethrower squad killing a squad within a second i gonna laugh, no matter if it was my squad that burned. I will laugh bc its the first since i started with BK (2011) that a flamethrower pio squad was somehow usefull and not just a "trolling device".

I will see how it works out but at first i have an exam tomorrow so i cant play much or not at all currently.
What i hope is that we get a very fix hotfix on missing cal 50, fixed cal 50 and fixed hull/coaxial penetration vs axis light vehicles in order to get a feeling how it works out at the end.

why do not you play vcoh if you want to see so many flamethrowers? all these changes point to a game, only infanteria. Maybe because the developers want to see more people in the mod, or because they only do what you say, i do not know

[Warhawks97]

Its the first time in BK history that Flamethrower can kill something, has a use, gets used and its instantly OP. Thats the real thing that makes me laughing currently. I think when i gonna see a flamethrower squad killing a squad within a second i gonna laugh, no matter if it was my squad that burned. I will laugh bc its the first since i started with BK (2011) that a flamethrower pio squad was somehow usefull and not just a "trolling device".

I will see how it works out but at first i have an exam tomorrow so i cant play much or not at all currently.
What i hope is that we get a very fix hotfix on missing cal 50, fixed cal 50 and fixed hull/coaxial penetration vs axis light vehicles in order to get a feeling how it works out at the end.

why do not you play vcoh if you want to see so many flamethrowers? all these changes point to a game, only infanteria. Maybe because the developers want to see more people in the mod, or because they only do what you say, i do not know

Wait, why more infantry? Do you think 20 pio squads with flamethrowers would be able to kill just a single M16? Or sherman?


It seems ok that we have (or had) billions of zooks and schrecks, multirole long/short range weapons (STG, FG42, BAR) and other good infantry stuff such as massive boosts, high health pools, rambo training unlocks etc. which really makes infantry to be a "jack of all trade" force, but just bc a few flamethrowers that are usually deployed by the weakest type of infantry are able to kill something (between all these slaughter weapons aka Fg42) the game becomes infatry heavy? That must be a joke. I mean flamethrowers have afterall severe drawbacks.
Pls explain me this logic.

If i would want it to be less inf heavy, i would drop health pools, tweak some of the rambo unlocks and weapon availabilites.

On top of that, ww2 was a infantry heavy war. Much more infantry based than tank based. I mean just get the numbers straight. We are talking about hundreds or thosand soldiers for each armored vehicle (spgs, tanks, light armored cars etc) deployed.

And if you ask me, BK has always been infantry heavy, in the past even more than now when uber rambos could rush just everything with their guided missile "no scope" Schreck shots.

But ok, flamehtrowers are going to make vehicles and tank obsolete and infantry super dominant. Thx a lot for that super explanation. I understand everything better now.

[Shanks]

you have to play vcoh, it's your stick

[Warhawks97]

You shouldnt play at all perhaps?


you have really not seen the days when infantry was really over-dominating BK, else you wouldnt speak such nonsense.

[Shanks]

you do not even need a demolition or grenade load to destroy an AA emplacement or a 88 emplacement, only flamethrower in less than 1 second, nice and the mortat suck too

[Warhawks97]

you do not even need a demolition or grenade load to destroy an AA emplacement or a 88 emplacement, only flamethrower in less than 1 second, nice and the mortat suck too

1. Its a lot more likely that a squad with satchels makes it alive towards such defenses like AB Rangers or infiltration Ranger? Or have engis suddenly the HP or Rangers?
2. It kills the crew, not the emplacment. Sure, it can make you capturing the emplacment but still.
3. I usually wouldnt put emplacments as very first defensive line and instead have some sort of skirmish line in front of it. Like having a long beach that softens the waves rather than having the waves hitting rocks, cliffs or even cities and buildings directly. A engi squad shouldnt make through such a defense.
4. I build perhaps 1 emplacment in 10 games as axis. There i prefer mobile defense anyway to spare upkeep. As allied i used emplacments more often but there with described skrimish line if possible. Most emplacments are quite easily rushable with any inf, let alone the lack of recons that makes emplacment usless already (88 is perhaps an exception here).


So i have no idea how you use emplacments, but if something gets that easily to an emplacment, its dead anyway.

[MenciusMoldbug]

@MarKr

Can we lower US/Wehr spotter upkeep? Currently they have the same upkeep as their respective snipers. In the case of US you are losing around 9 MP a minute for a single spotter without supply yard upgrades. Not asking for anything drastic, just lower than that of a snipers upkeep.

[Warhawks97]

@MarKr

Can we lower US/Wehr spotter upkeep? Currently they have the same upkeep as their respective snipers. In the case of US you are losing around 9 MP a minute for a single spotter without supply yard upgrades. Not asking for anything drastic, just lower than that of a snipers upkeep.

Oh, cool, i am not alone anymore. I am praying that for idk how long. Never got any respond. WH is ok even though i agree that they could perhaps be lower than a sniper. But given their importance i can live with it. But paying 9 for it like US does is really a pain, esspecially early game. Its more than a grenadier squad costs in upkeep.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Tested mortars a bit more. Looks like the 'Creeping Barrage' ability they get with vet doesn't seem to have a munition cost. So they can do 'mortar barrages' for free if they use the creeping ability instead when they vet up.

Mortars feel a bit too expensive. Remove the munition cost of building mortars and lower the munition cost of firing each of them by 5; 8cm to 25, 60mm to 15, 2inch to 10, etc. Then it should be better; 60mm mortar shouldn't really cost more than a US grenade to launch a barrage with (with same thoughts mirroring axis grenade to 8cm).

Hotchkiss still feels broken. The timing it comes out is better and the mobility reduction helps out as well. But I think the main problem is it's just too cheap to fire. Those 4 rockets aren't worth 55 munitions but much more. Consider a strafing run usually only ends up killing 1-2 squads most of the time while a strike with this can usually kill multiple squads because of how good the splash is. Strafing runs for AB are like 125; for that price TH can launch 2 x 55 hotchkiss barrages (and probably sync kill a tank with it too). Consider also how cheap it is to fire compared to similar rocket artillery. Raise the cost of the barrage to 65 (or above) so it's more punishing if it isn't aimed well rather than just repeatedly firing into the fog of war because TH has munitions to spare.

[Mr. FeministDonut]

Anyone can explain to me how to use the Corsix? I downloaded it, but whats next?
Don't want to bother you guys and forcing Markkr looking down the stats, thanks

[Warhawks97]

Tested mortars a bit more. Looks like the 'Creeping Barrage' ability they get with vet doesn't seem to have a munition cost. So they can do 'mortar barrages' for free if they use the creeping ability instead when they vet up.

Mortars feel a bit too expensive. Remove the munition cost of building mortars and lower the munition cost of firing each of them by 5; 8cm to 25, 60mm to 15, 2inch to 10, etc. Then it should be better; 60mm mortar shouldn't really cost more than a US grenade to launch a barrage with (with same thoughts mirroring axis grenade to 8cm).

agreed. Ammo build cost should be removed and perhaps MP build cost down by approx perhaps 15 MP.

Hotchkiss still feels broken. The timing it comes out is better and the mobility reduction helps out as well. But I think the main problem is it's just too cheap to fire. Those 4 rockets aren't worth 55 munitions but much more. Consider a strafing run usually only ends up killing 1-2 squads most of the time while a strike with this can usually kill multiple squads because of how good the splash is. Strafing runs for AB are like 125; for that price TH can launch 2 x 55 hotchkiss barrages (and probably sync kill a tank with it too). Consider also how cheap it is to fire compared to similar rocket artillery. Raise the cost of the barrage to 65 (or above) so it's more punishing if it isn't aimed well rather than just repeatedly firing into the fog of war because TH has munitions to spare.

Wouldnt say no. 65-75 ammo doesnt look bad per barrage. And TH has usually tons of ammo just like RE.

[MenciusMoldbug]

Anyone can explain to me how to use the Corsix? I downloaded it, but whats next?
Don't want to bother you guys and forcing Markkr looking down the stats, thanks

When you open corsix, click on 'Load Single SGA Archive.'

Look for where your blitzkrieg folder is and find the 'Archives' folder inside it (SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Company of Heroes Relaunch\Blitzkrieg\Archives). Open either BKAttrib to see the base changes in the game or BKAttribPatch which only shows you the latest patch changes.

After you open either of them, click open 'Attrib' and open the sub-folder named 'Attrib' again.

Here you can find pretty almost all values in BK, but I will just outline the main things you are probably looking for:

Unit Abilities -
Should be located in the sub-folder called 'abilities.' Say you want to check what US HVAP shells do. Look for allied_hvap_shell.rgd and open that file. Then in the action_list, check start_self_actions and open the actions where there is a + sign indicating there are values inside. There check the modifiers like modifier_01, modifier_02, etc. to find your values. Checking latest patch, we can see that HVAP shells apply a weapon penetration multiplication affect of 1.54.

Health, Upkeep, Cost, and Ambush Modifiers -
Located in 'ebps' sub-folder. Find the vehicle you are looking for and most of the things are already self labelled. The only thing that might feel 'hidden' is the ambush modifiers. So locate a vehicle like m18_hellcat.rgd, open that file, and in camouflage_ext check inside ability_actions for the modifiers. Each multiplication value can only use one action bar in their so damage, accuracy, and penetration values are usually split between action_01, action_02, and action_03.

Veterancy, Veterancy Requirements -
Located in 'sbps' sub-folder. Find something like m4_sherman_squad.rgd, open it and look for squad_veterancy_ext. There you can find the requirement for each vet level, and in the squad_actions action tabs you can find the modifiers for what each vet level does.

Weapons -
Located in the 'weapon' sub-folder. Open that place and in files like m3_90mm_pershing_gun.rgd you can find values like 'accuracy,' 'burst (for stuff like MG's),' 'cool down,' 'reload' 'moving,' 'cover_tables,' etc. For things like tank penetration values, you are probably looking at the target_table and checking the penetration value against a tank and the penetration values you have on the gun already.

On the patch itself, I honestly think the other mortar halftracks should get smoke barrage abilities. Sometimes you are at those moments where you got almost no munitions left. It would be nice to have the mortar halftrack provide smoke cover for your infantry if you are stuck in a corner or are getting bogged down.

EDIT: I tested the new 75mm KwKs, for the cost of around 70 munitions to load HE they are just right where they should be with them. The new HEAT shells are also good. Please keep these changes, they make the 75mm stubby light vehicles very useful.

I think the descriptions also need a fix if these changes go through. Because for the 75mm KwK's it says for 'a short period of time fire HE shells' or something like that when now it's an HE mode instead of being on a timer.