5.1.5 beta v6

[MarKr]

Hello

another beta is here. This one is mainly focused on balancing the GrB39 in the early game but brings several other changes too. As requested, a cumulative changelog is attached to this post too.

General:
- Implemented new textures for most tanks of Allies (Sherman variations, Cromwells, M10s, Jacksons...Thanks to JustForFun1 for all the work)

US:
- M26 Pershing will now auto-target infantry with its main gun (same as all other tanks)
- M3A1 Halftrack should now display loaded infantry

CW:
- Changed MP upkeep of Comet from ~20 to "8" (used to have upkeep of "20" while Cromwells have 7, Fireflies have 9)

Wehrmacht:
- GrB39 should no longer finish off medium and heavy tanks with 1HP left with the regular ammunition
- GrB39 now deals significantly less damage to CW HQ trucks
- lowered damage of GrB39 vs light tanks (now it should take 3-4 hits to destroy them)
- GrB39 smoke grenade should no longer hit objects on its trajectory
- GrB39 HE grenade should no longer always kill AA emplacement crews
- 46mm AT grenade should now deal significantly less damage vs structures
- Lowered stats of Kar98 rifles in the GrB39 team

Panzer Elite:
- Removed Flank Speed from Hetzers

Just a few notes:
On the US transport Halftrack the top MG dissapears when the HT is empty, we will try to solve that next time, for now when the HT is loaded the soldiers can shoot and the MG works too. We needed to change model for the infantry to be visible (thanks goes to Halftrack) but making the MG visible all the time proved to be tricky so this is for now. Comet used to have MP upkeep of about "20" which was too much compared to other units CW has at disposal - for example Cromwells have MP upkeep of "7", Fireflies have "9" so Comet is now more in line with the rest of CW arsenal. Flank speed removal from Hetzer is for now experimental, we'll see how it will work but the unit has relatively good speed on its own, strong gun, good armor, cost is relatively low and can camo so with the flank speed it is too verstile.

If the GrB39 with these changes is in acceptable state, this beta will be the last one for 5.1.5 and the patch will be released as official 5.1.5.
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Cumulative changelog for 5.1.5 beta:
(entries made in this color are related to the last "white" entry above)

General:
- increased penetration values vs read armor
- artillery units revised:
- changed ranges based on arty type
- created differences between rocket and shell artillery
- artillery deals less damage to vehicles/tanks (except for direct hits, those deal more damage than before)
- revised reload times on tanks (in general smaller guns shoot faster; some exceptions applied)
- Speed modifier buff of all vehicles on off road terrain dropped by 25%
- Speed modifier buff of all vehicles on road dropped by 25%
- Wheeled vehicles lower their speed by 50% when driving over craters and other "light cover"
- Wheeled vehicles lower their speed by 70% when driving over sandbags, through stone walls and other "heavy cover"
- Halftracks lower their speed by 35% when driving over craters and other "light cover"
- Halftracks lower their speed by 50% when driving over sandbags, through stone walls and other "heavy cover"
- Tanks lower their speed by 20% when driving over craters and other "light cover"
- Tanks lower their speed by 35% when driving over sandbags, through stone walls and other "heavy cover"
- Removed "Spotting Scope" upgrades from all units
- All armored cars now have rotation speed set to 35 (from various values)
- Added some tweaks to AI; it should now build emplacements more apropriately (thanks to Sonsalt)
- Fixed wrong Veterancy UI on all versions of 88mm flak36
- All HMG teams should now take better formation in green and yellow cover so that entire crew uses the cover and not just soldier manning the MG
- Axis MG nests now have wider cone of fire (from 45° left/right to 60° left/right)
- Tanks with a "HE shot" ability should no longer have trouble targetting/shooting MG nests with the HE shot in certain situations
- CW campaign should be playable now (thanks to drivebyhobo)

US:
Riflemen riflegrenades:
- HE grenade:
- changed targetting system to require select a specific target (no longer can fire "on the ground")
- now performs better at targetting buildings and emplacements (still has hard time hitting infantry that is not garrisoned)
- now has better distributed chances of killing an emplacement crew
- HEAT grenade:
- changed targetting system so that it does not miss more often than intended
- increased damage vs light vehicles
- Airborne Recon unit can now use "Hold Fire" ability when they are camouflaged
- Added "Hold Ground" ability to Airborne Recon squad
- M1 Carbine of 101st now shoots faster at all ranges but has lower accuracy (RoF and accuracy set to same level as M1 Garand of Riflemen, Carbine still keeps lower damage though)
- 101st can now upgrade M1 Garands; 2 rifles for 20ammo, possible to upgrade up to 3x (Garands with same stats as Rangers have - shoot slower but more accurately and with slightly higher chance to one-shot infantry)
- removed the BAR upgrade from 101st
- 101st can now use the "Suppressive fire" ability if they upgrade Johnson 2x
- Increased HP of Sherman 76(W) by 10% (from 636 to 700)
- Lowered price of Sherman 105 to 500MP 65F (from 650MP 80F)

CW:
- HE grenade:
- changed targetting system to require select a specific target (no longer can fire "on the ground")
- now performs better at targetting buildings and emplacements (still has hard time hitting infantry that is not garrisoned)
- now has better distributed chances of killing an emplacement crew

WM:
- Crew of the naked 20mm flak 36 should now properly sit where he should be
- StuG III/IV will now be affected by "Blitzkrieg" ability
- Increased scatter of Maultier (from 20 to 23)
- 37mm Halftrack in HE mode nologner deals too much damage to Stuart-type vehicles
- New model for Elefant implemented (works same as before, only visual change; thanks to Gurky, Jagdpanther, VanAdrian and Panzerblitz1)
- Removed 37mm PaK36 from HQ building
- Geschutzwagen's "Static mode" should no longer dissappear at certain position on maps
- Panzer IV F2 (Terror doc) can now use the "Fire smoke" ability just as the Luft version
- Fixed wrong Veterancy UI on 75mm L48 Halftrack
- Changed Rifle on the new AT squad from Pzb39 AT rifle to GrB39 rifle:
- 4 men
- 1x MP40, 2xKar98, 1xGrB39
- Abilities: Fire Anti-personnel grenade, Fire 46mm AT grenade, Fire Smoke grenade, Build sandbags/barbedwires
- Point capture speed 0.75
- Cost 240MP

PE:
-Applied new textures to Fallshirmjäger squads (textures by halftrack)
- Increased basic speed of Hotchkiss to 5.5 (from 2.8)
- "Stuka rockets" upgrades for Hotchkiss now reduce its speed to 4.5 and acceleration by 25%
- "Periscopes" unlock in TH doctrine now increases vision of tank hunters when they are in ambush mode
- Henschel air raid will now send maximum of 4-5 planes each time
- Luftwaffe now has special texture for its Sniper (stats/abilities are same as for the SE sniper)
- The Kar98 sniper rifle has now a bit darker texture (was a bit too bright)
- Observation HT and Bergetiger will not have Axis markings on them (did not have any; texture tweak)

[Krieger Blitzer]

Haven't tested anything yet, but going to do that as soon as i can.
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Though, there is one particular change almost getting me mad: (watch out, rant incoming)

Panzer Elite:
- Removed Flank Speed from Hetzers

Flank speed removal from Hetzer is for now experimental, we'll see how it will work but the unit has relatively good speed on its own, strong gun, good armor, cost is relatively low and can camo so with the flank speed it is too verstile.

Seriously now? You just KEEP picking on this one, without any logic here.. what a farce!

I mean; if you THINK flank speed ability makes Hetzer too versatile, then I could argue that flank speed for Tiger1 is completely misplaced.
in fact, flank speed on Hetzers make MUCH MORE SENSE than on Tiger1, because the Tiger1 is a slow heavy tank.. which means that it shouldn't have flank speed at all.. while the Hetzer is actually called "chaser/hunter" and thus; using flank speed.. is exactly what the Hetzer is supposed to do!

Yet, when I message you about removing flank speed from Tiger1 in return for allowing some long range ability earlier (which is also what Tigers are mainly supposed to do with their 88 cannons btw) you just keep pretending that you live on another planet and simply ignore the messages...
And then you come up by removing it from HETZERS but not Tigers, astonishing!

Too versatile, really? And what about the Achilles? That one also isn't too versatile with flank speed AND high explosive rounds at the same time?!
Hetzer doesn't have HE rounds, and therefore the flank speed was very important in order to escape from Bazookas, the Hetzer's armor can't protect it against Zookas, so don't tell me Hetzer has better armor.. it also has very slow rotation rate, Achilles can hit inf and run.. but now the Hetzer is not even allowed to run... Peerrrfffecccccct (applauding the crap).
================================================================================
Anyway;

- M26 Pershing will now auto-target infantry with its main gun (same as all other tanks)

What for? I think it was better without auto-targeting inf.. in fact, I think all heavy tanks should now have a hold fire ability.. not to waste shots. Keeping in mind that the new reload times are much longer now...

[mofetagalactica]

Thank you for finally removing ferrari hetzers, and about what tiger said of heavy tanks i would also like to see an hold fire hability for most heavies.

Btw is the PE sniper more drunk compared to other snipers? it seems to miss more.

[MarKr]

The change on Pershings was made because their behavior was non-standard, all other tanks I checked are set to auto-target infantry (including SP and PAce).

Sniper stats were not touched at all. The changes listed for snipers are only cosmetic.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The change on Pershings was made because their behavior was non-standard, all other tanks I checked are set to auto-target infantry (including SP and PAce).

The new "standard" should be that ALL heavy tanks (as well as any other assault howitzer units with long reload) would need hold fire ability.
just like JagdTiger, it has hold fire currently btw.. because old mod developers knew very well that "wasting shots" is very bad when you have such a long reload time. So, now for example... SP, PAce, Tigers, KT, Elefant, maybe Panthers as well, and JagdPanther should ALL always have hold fire ability now (even when not in ambush mode) and if some tanks don't have a place in their ability Ui panel (such as Tiger1) then go ahead and remove flank speed and replace it with hold fire, Hold fire is now more important than flank speed for tanks such as Tiger1.

And let's add hold fire for Stupa, Stuh and Scotts too (ALL assault howitzer units).

And just to clarify, I'm not against removing flank speed from Hetzers.. however, I don't see a logic in removing it ONLY from Hetzers, specifically when some other heavy tanks such as the Tiger1 still have flank speed...
Either you remove it from Hetzers, 95mm Cromwell, and Tigers.. or you keep ALL as they are.
Also, as I said... Achilles are still better than Jackson this way, they have flank speed, much cheaper cost and HE rounds. Jacksons don't have HE rounds and are more expensive. So, don't be "picky" when you remove flank speed.. there are many other tanks that REALLY DON'T deserve a flank speed ability, a lot more than Hetzers.. but they still have it somehow!!

So; plz remove flank speed on Tiger1 and add hold fire, also add it for all other heavies and assault guns.

And I have done some initial testing, and actually I can probably smell some bugs.. but I'm going to postpone my report regarding this matter for now, until I'm done testing all other stuff as well.

EDIT:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2530
This idea was good btw, player will be able to choose between SP and PAce.. 2 items with shared cool-down and SP will be still available once.

[The New BK Champion]

in fact, flank speed on Hetzers make MUCH MORE SENSE than on Tiger1, because the Tiger1 is a slow heavy tank.. which means that it shouldn't have flank speed at all.. while the Hetzer is actually called "chaser/hunter" and thus; using flank speed.. is exactly what the Hetzer is supposed to do!

"Along with the reinforced suspension, in order to cope with the weight of the new 75 mm (2.95 in) gun, this engine compensated for the overall weight increase, which went from 9.5 tonnes on the original light tank to the 15.7 tonnes of a Hetzer in battle order. Top speed was apparently still 42 km/h (26 km/h), which appears optimistic, since the power to weight ratio fell to only 10 hp/tonne, compared to 13.15 hp/tonne on the Panzer 38(t). Cross-country speed was probably no more than 15 km/h (9 mph) at best, like the model it was based on. It was far short from the original specifications."

Source: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/Jagdpanzer-38_Hetzer.php

Old tanks (designed before 1940's) were usually very slow. French, English, Czech, even Germans built slow machines. Only "chase" tanks of Russians and some British prototypes were able to reach over 20km/h off road.

[Shanks]

@MarKr-It is very wrong to remove the speed of flanking the hetzer, is what I think .... the hetzer is the spearhead in many of the attacks of the axis, and take away the flanking speed,it would only make the allies stronger!

[Krieger Blitzer]

@The New BK Champion
Yup, totally aware about that.. that's why I also said:

And just to clarify, I'm not against removing flank speed from Hetzers.. however, I don't see a logic in removing it ONLY from Hetzers, specifically when some other heavy tanks such as the Tiger1 still have flank speed...

So, my statement that you have quoted.. was only in the context of comparing Tiger1 with Hetzers.
As I just can't see the logic why he removes the ability ONLY from Hetzers but keeping it for Tigers on the other hand... This way he is "picking" units.

Similarly the 95mm Cromwell for example is an arty unit.. game-play wise arty units aren't supposed to be fast, not to mention 95mm gun was heavier than the original 75mm gun of the Cromwell, thus... How come 95mm Cromwell or Tiger1 are fine to use flank speed, but not the Hetzer!!!
Either that both Hetzer and 95mm Cromwell would lose flank speed (Tiger1 as well) or ALL of them would keep it.. but "picking" is very bad.

You see.. my point is how he "picked" a specific individual unit and removed flank speed from it.. while leaving other flank speed abilities totally untouched on some other units, despite that flank speed on those other units don't make any sense at all... Specifically the flank speed on Tigers.

So, I have to question the following: (MarKr's logic)
Why a Ferrari Hetzer is not fine, but a Ferrari Tiger1 is fine?
Why a Ferrari Hetzer is not fine, but a Ferrari Cromwell with a heavy 95mm arty cannon is fine?

And how is a Hetzer with flank speed considered "too versatile" but Achilles with flank speed as well as HE rounds considered totally fine?
Both of them are weak against handheld AT weapons, so "Hetzer has better armor" isn't really an argument.

============================================================================

That being said...
@MarKr
I'm not asking much, and I am not trying to give you orders either, neither am I trying to enforce any sort of a "domineering" attitude here...
And sorry if I sound so.

However; 2 things I'm srsly asking to change plz before you bring the next patch officially live, which are:

1) Due to the long reload time implemented.. then ALL heavy tanks (Tiger1, Pershing, KT, SP, etc) also assault howitzer vehicles (Stupa, Scott, Stuh, etc) should now have hold fire ability.. same as JT.

2) Plz remove flank speed from Tiger1 and 95mm Cromwell just like you did with Hetzer.
And then allow earlier ALRS at vet1 for ALL Tigers.

in order to add hold fire, u will need to remove flank speed from Tigers anyway.. and probably no need for the static sniper mode of KT as well, that's if there is no space in the UI panel of course. And I suspect Tiger ACE might not have a space as well, maybe you can add UI switcher button?

And if you think ALRS at vet1 will be "too much" then here is my counter argument regarding how it would be fine:

Spoiler: show

- Now the ALRS ability can only be used effectively until 75 range, in order to use it above this range.. spotters are required. I mean that tanks can't have huge sight range anymore only with tank commanders, that's after removing the scope upgrades.

- ALRS is a double-edged ability.. once you bounce off Jumbo, Pershing, or Churchills, you instantly lose 50 ammo.

- Keep in mind that Pershing can now reach 75 range (from 65) without any veterancy.. thanks to US command car.

- Lasty, don't forget Tigers won't be able to escape quickly like racing cars anymore with flank speed.. according to the suggestion.
And don't forget Tiger1 turret is one of the slowest in the game.. and the rear armor is weaker now as well.

That's all for now, thx for reading.

[Warhawks97]

Hold fire for tanks doesnt sound bad at all. I would be all up for to have more controle when you go into combat.

About Hetzer. Well Tiger, do you know what Hetzer actually mean? There are two types to hunt your victim. First one is being simply faster and agile like a real hunter like a cheetah actually all cats arround the world. Hetzer is more like a wolf. They chase you simply for so long untill you cant run away. So being a "Hetzer" has nothing to do with speed.

The Hetzer was an ambush tank and as Champion stated it had a bad power to weight ratio. Originally based on the light weigh czech tank. Similiar things happend to Panzer IV´s as well. Only Panthers (and Jagdpanthers) had thus a good power/weight ratio in the german tank arsenal.
The Hetzer is simply a very good ambush tank with a good gun, two ambush shots (enough to kill any sherman) or in case you can hold fire after first shot to prevent getting spotted. Its armor can withstand the strongest US standard gun (the 76 mm) with an approx 46% chance to bounce it from max range (which could be upped a bit in case tank feels too vulnerable in combat) unlike Allied M10 can which cant even stand 50 mm gun shots and basically unable to bounce a german standard 75 mm gun (you have a approx 5% chance to bounce it which is a huge difference to hetzer vs 76 gun).
So a Hetzer can slaughter entire tank column from ambush (killing the first 1-2 from ambush, then staying in battle slaughter the last one thx to his armor) on its own while an M10 has to run after the first shot (which in case didnt even kill the tank). Thus the flank speed is not much needed nor does it makes sense, not even from its name. Jagdpanther is a whole different thing for example.


However, that is true:

1) Due to the long reload time implemented.. then ALL heavy tanks (Tiger1, Pershing, KT, SP, etc) also assault howitzer vehicles (Stupa, Scott, Stuh, etc) should now have hold fire ability.. same as JT.

2) Plz remove flank speed from Tiger1 and 95mm Cromwell just like you did with Hetzer.
And then allow earlier ALRS at vet1 for ALL Tigers.

in order to add hold fire, u will need to remove flank speed from Tigers anyway.. and probably no need for the static sniper mode of KT as well, that's if there is no space in the UI panel of course. And I suspect Tiger ACE might not have a space as well, maybe you can add UI switcher button?

And if you think ALRS at vet1 will be "too much" then here is my counter argument regarding how it would be fine:

Spoiler: show

- Now the ALRS ability can only be used effectively until 75 range, in order to use it above this range.. spotters are required. I mean that tanks can't have huge sight range anymore only with tank commanders, that's after removing the scope upgrades.

- ALRS is a double-edged ability.. once you bounce off Jumbo, Pershing, or Churchills, you instantly lose 50 ammo.

- Keep in mind that Pershing can now reach 75 range (from 65) without any veterancy.. thanks to US command car.

- Lasty, don't forget Tigers won't be able to escape quickly like racing cars anymore with flank speed.. according to the suggestion.
And don't forget Tiger1 turret is one of the slowest in the game.. and the rear armor is weaker now as well.

That's all for now, thx for reading.

@Tiger: About the ALRS. Its not just a long range shot but can also be used as "double shot" ability like Panthers and Pershings have. The reload time after the ALRS is just like 2-3.5 seconds (iirc close arround 3). So that would need to be fixed as well so that it is an ALRS and not an ALRS+double quick shot ability.

[MarKr]

@Shanks: It has a good gun, a good speed (possible to boost with Flank speed), it has camo (with bonuses fro camo), top MG that can mess up infantry and also good armor. What is actually the weakness of this unit? "17pounders and 90mm guns can one shot it" is not an argument, those guns are meant to go against higher tier units than Hetzers. It is as if Hellcat had everything as now but we made it possible to bounce off shots from 75mm L48 guns. Would such unit be OK on the side of Allies?

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Tiger: About the ALRS. Its not just a long range shot but can also be used as "double shot" ability like Panthers and Pershings have. The reload time after the ALRS is just like 2-3.5 seconds (iirc close arround 3). So that would need to be fixed as well so that it is an ALRS and not an ALRS+double quick shot ability.

Really glad that you are fine with my suggestion in the first place.

About the 3 seconds, I think it's the aim time of the ability.. which is BEFORE the Tiger1 fires the ability, and after firing.. it reloads a new shell.
I mean that MarKr already fixed that before.
So now it's working absolutely fine without double-shooting or anything

@Shanks: It has a good gun, a good speed (possible to boost with Flank speed), it has camo (with bonuses fro camo), top MG that can mess up infantry and also good armor. What is actually the weakness of this unit? "17pounders and 90mm guns can one shot it" is not an argument, those guns are meant to go against higher tier units than Hetzers. It is as if Hellcat had everything as now but we made it possible to bounce off shots from 75mm L48 guns. Would such unit be OK on the side of Allies?

Did you read what I said? Their weakness is their armor vs handheld AT weapons.
Achilles can shoot inf with HE rounds and then quickly escape with flank speed.
Hetzers only had the option to escape using flank speed.. now they can't even escape.

However, as I said.. removal of the flank speed from Hetzer is acceptable, but then please consider the 2 other points I highlighted above, before you release the next patch officially. I mean that if you remove it from Hetzer, then go ahead and remove it from Tigers as well.. also add hold fire.

Hetzers need protection vs inf though, maybe improve their top MG stats? just an idea passing around.

[drivebyhobo]

- Implemented new textures for most tanks of Allies (Sherman variations, Cromwells, M10s, Jacksons...Thanks to JustForFun1 for all the work)

The 76 Sherman is bugged in the beta. The top gunner is a generic rifleman with a faulty texture. The rest of the Shermans have the correct gunner and in current 5.1.4, the 76 Sherman has the same gunner as the other Shermans.

[MarKr]

@drivebyhobo: Thanks, I will check that. Can you post a screen of the 76 Sherman? Just so I can see what the faulty texture looks like.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Super Pershing has the same issue I guess... Static gunner and a "flying" 50.cal without any piece of metal holding it. Not sure if this has always been the case or just due to the new textures. Also, gunner can shoot backward but appears looking always at the front.. same issue with Panther.A in Blitz doc in the past... I think it was fixed by making the gunner unable to turn around, only shooting in the direction where the turret is looking.

And btw, do you have any words regarding what was told above? I think also many people agree.

[mofetagalactica]

The only thing i don't like about tigers is that they're too expensive, and i just don't know why, panthers are 200% better plues cost less lol. After these changes tigers are even less fearless, i would be up for a price reduce (For example same cost than jacksons?) along with the removal of his flank speed, also im sorry for ALRS but being able to use it at lvl 1 its just crazy its like asking double shoot ability for panthers and pershings at lvl 1 vet, but it would be nice that at least the ACE tiger where able to use his ALRS at lvl1 vet or at lvl 0.

[MarKr]

The only thing i don't like about tigers is that they're too expensive, and i just don't know why, panthers are 200% better plues cost less lol.

This used to be the case before the rear pen. adjustments. Panthers were pretty much direct upgrade compared to Tigers - Panthers had better armor, better speed, better cost and better (or at least comparable) gun. Now Panthers have weaker rear armor than Tigers, and we might give a little bit boost to Tigers' rear armor, at least vs some guns. This should make the some clear distinction between Tiger and Panther.

[Krieger Blitzer]

The only thing i don't like about tigers is that they're too expensive, and i just don't know why, panthers are 200% better plues cost less lol. After these changes tigers are even less fearless, i would be up for a price reduce (For example same cost than jacksons?) along with the removal of his flank speed, also im sorry for ALRS but being able to use it at lvl 1 its just crazy its like asking double shoot ability for panthers and pershings at lvl 1 vet, but it would be nice that at least the ACE tiger where able to use his ALRS at lvl1 vet or at lvl 0.

I agree that Tigers are fearless now.. and about ALRS for Tigers, there is also another idea that I suggested in the past...
Which is to give 1 more veterancy level to Tiger ACE and Pershing ACE, so both of them will arrive at vet2 by default.. they are currently just vet1 when they arrive, if they arrive at vet2 then Tiger ACE will be able to use ALRS right away.. also Pershing ACE will be able to use Rapid Shot right away.

Also, if the ACE tanks will come at vet2, then it would be enough to remove flank speed for normal Tigers and replace it with hold fire...
ALRS can stay at vet2 for normal TIgers then, and Aces will be able to use it right away at vet2.

Gameplay wise, the price for Tiger tank is ridiculous, without a doubt.. however, realistically the price is fine.

This used to be the case before the rear pen. adjustments. Panthers were pretty much direct upgrade compared to Tigers - Panthers had better armor, better speed, better cost and better (or at least comparable) gun. Now Panthers have weaker rear armor than Tigers, and we might give a little bit boost to Tigers' rear armor, at least vs some guns. This should make the some clear distinction between Tiger and Panther.

Really... MarKr is being himself here, no surprise.
You think you are clever when you keep ignoring the actual point? I've been trying my best to keep calm here, and still trying.
So, please stick to the main point... No one said Tigers should have better rear. Many other things were mentioned and you simply dodged, come on!

[Shanks]

@Shanks: It has a good gun, a good speed (possible to boost with Flank speed), it has camo (with bonuses fro camo), top MG that can mess up infantry and also good armor. What is actually the weakness of this unit? "17pounders and 90mm guns can one shot it" is not an argument, those guns are meant to go against higher tier units than Hetzers. It is as if Hellcat had everything as now but we made it possible to bounce off shots from 75mm L48 guns. Would such unit be OK on the side of Allies?

I understand, no matter what I say, the flanking speed will never be returned to the hetzer ..... while the achilles (which can kill a KT) will continue to have flanking speed and also the M10 (which can kill panthers and tigers, even the elephant, with special ammunition), but of course, the hetzer is OP !, wtf

[mofetagalactica]

The only thing i don't like about tigers is that they're too expensive, and i just don't know why, panthers are 200% better plues cost less lol.

This used to be the case before the rear pen. adjustments. Panthers were pretty much direct upgrade compared to Tigers - Panthers had better armor, better speed, better cost and better (or at least comparable) gun. Now Panthers have weaker rear armor than Tigers, and we might give a little bit boost to Tigers' rear armor, at least vs some guns. This should make the some clear distinction between Tiger and Panther.

Don't do that please. Search other way around. Even before the changes tigers weren't much of a thing anyway i was more scared of panther's even the D version lol wich is cheap as fuck, 170 fuel for something so slow and big that can still be penetrated frontally by 76's shoudln't be that expensive. Honestly tigers should be an iconic tank of the axis side something that inspires at least a little of fear or cautiousness. If it were for me panthers should exchange prices with tigers but wathever..

[Warhawks97]

@Shanks: It has a good gun, a good speed (possible to boost with Flank speed), it has camo (with bonuses fro camo), top MG that can mess up infantry and also good armor. What is actually the weakness of this unit? "17pounders and 90mm guns can one shot it" is not an argument, those guns are meant to go against higher tier units than Hetzers. It is as if Hellcat had everything as now but we made it possible to bounce off shots from 75mm L48 guns. Would such unit be OK on the side of Allies?

I understand, no matter what I say, the flanking speed will never be returned to the hetzer ..... while the achilles (which can kill a KT) will continue to have flanking speed and also the M10 (which can kill panthers and tigers, even the elephant, with special ammunition), but of course, the hetzer is OP !, wtf

yeah. Ok, when i have a Hellcat i can shred elephants and KT´s just like that. Sure, good to know. The CW M10 cost as much as an hetzer basically and has just one ambush shot and far less armor + CW has basically no real multirole units unlike PE has it thus you which everybody seems to forget in all discussions.

That special ammo has perhaps 1% pen (actually less) vs Elephant frontally and that thing has a shitload of HP. I guess you have tried a dirty dance with your elephant against a hellcat while you didnt consider to back yours with inf or something. The Elephant is a fortress when it comes to armor protection. Stop talking nonsense.

The Achilles can with luck and ambush and AP etc perhaps pen and damage a KT but it cant resist any kind of enemie fire bc it has litterally no armor except against 20 mm and 37 mm guns.


This is simply the difference between factions. One trade their armor for mobility while the other sacrifices speed for protection.

[Shanks]

@Shanks: It has a good gun, a good speed (possible to boost with Flank speed), it has camo (with bonuses fro camo), top MG that can mess up infantry and also good armor. What is actually the weakness of this unit? "17pounders and 90mm guns can one shot it" is not an argument, those guns are meant to go against higher tier units than Hetzers. It is as if Hellcat had everything as now but we made it possible to bounce off shots from 75mm L48 guns. Would such unit be OK on the side of Allies?

I understand, no matter what I say, the flanking speed will never be returned to the hetzer ..... while the achilles (which can kill a KT) will continue to have flanking speed and also the M10 (which can kill panthers and tigers, even the elephant, with special ammunition), but of course, the hetzer is OP !, wtf

yeah. Ok, when i have a Hellcat i can shred elephants and KT´s just like that. Sure, good to know. The CW M10 cost as much as an hetzer basically and has just one ambush shot and far less armor + CW has basically no real multirole units unlike PE has it thus you which everybody seems to forget in all discussions.

That special ammo has perhaps 1% pen (actually less) vs Elephant frontally and that thing has a shitload of HP. I guess you have tried a dirty dance with your elephant against a hellcat while you didnt consider to back yours with inf or something. The Elephant is a fortress when it comes to armor protection. Stop talking nonsense.

The Achilles can with luck and ambush and AP etc perhaps pen and damage a KT but it cant resist any kind of enemie fire bc it has litterally no armor except against 20 mm and 37 mm guns.


This is simply the difference between factions. One trade their armor for mobility while the other sacrifices speed for protection.

that you do not know how to use your tank-hunter, it's not my problem, the elephant can be an easy object to deal with ..... hellcat ?????, was talking about M10 from the USA

[Viper]

interesting patch, testing.

I understand, no matter what I say, the flanking speed will never be returned to the hetzer ..... while the achilles (which can kill a KT) will continue to have flanking speed and also the M10 (which can kill panthers and tigers, even the elephant, with special ammunition), but of course, the hetzer is OP !, wtf

must agree.

Did you read what I said? Their weakness is their armor vs handheld AT weapons.
Achilles can shoot inf with HE rounds and then quickly escape with flank speed.
Hetzers only had the option to escape using flank speed.. now they can't even escape.

agree also.

The Elephant is a fortress when it comes to armor protection. Stop talking nonsense.

elephant is the worst tank in the game...hope the range increase will make it more useful.

Really... MarKr is being himself here, no surprise.
You think you are clever when you keep ignoring the actual point? I've been trying my best to keep calm here, and still trying.
So, please stick to the main point... No one said Tigers should have better rear. Many other things were mentioned and you simply dodged, come on

relax

This used to be the case before the rear pen. adjustments. Panthers were pretty much direct upgrade compared to Tigers - Panthers had better armor, better speed, better cost and better (or at least comparable) gun. Now Panthers have weaker rear armor than Tigers, and we might give a little bit boost to Tigers' rear armor, at least vs some guns. This should make the some clear distinction between Tiger and Panther.

tiger and mofeta never said rear armor should be better for tigers...they are talking about flank speed, tiger cost, long range ability, and ace tanks.

[MarKr]

I understand, no matter what I say, the flanking speed will never be returned to the hetzer ..... while the achilles (which can kill a KT) will continue to have flanking speed and also the M10 (which can kill panthers and tigers, even the elephant, with special ammunition), but of course, the hetzer is OP !, wtf

It is not really like "no matter what you say", but what you wrote is not really compeling argument.

- Achilles can kill KT because it is armed with 17 pounders which in general can penetrate heavy tanks. Also Achiles, has way weaker armor than Hetzer (cannot reliably bounce off even 50mm shots) and does not shoot 2 shots from camo before canceling camo.

- Wolverine can kill Panthers and Tigers and bigger stuff, as you said, with special ability which is paid per shot, requires upgrades and has lower range than standard shots (and btw Hetzer has a very similar ability too which gives it chance against heavy tanks of Allies). Also still applies that M10 has weak armor which has hard time bouncing off even medium guns.

So yes, M10s have Flank speed but their armor is weak and can be destroyed by pretty much anything stronger than 37mm AT guns. So let me ask you - would you like to see M10s with armor that can bounce off 75mm L48 shots? If yes, then OK, they will get it and Hetzer gets the Flank speed back. If no, then why is it OK for Axis to have such a unit but not OK for Allies?

Don't do that please

I'm not sure what you mean here by "don't do it". I think there should be some distinction between Panthers and Tigers and not that Panthers are simply upgraded Tigers.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ok, not only you keep overlooking everything posted above.. but also, it sounds like you are almost trolling!
I think it's enough now.. this piece of crap is mind blowing.

then why is it OK for Axis to have such a unit but not OK for Allies?

is this a joke?

Huh, alright then.. why is it NOT OK for Hetzer to have flank speed, but OK for Tiger1 to have flank speed?
Why is it NOT OK for Hetzer to have flank speed, but OK for Achilles to have flank speed AND high explosive rounds too?
They are BOTH weak vs Zookas and Shrecks, so Hetzer doesn't really have better armor...

You seriously need to question your sense of logic, it's incredible.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "don't do it". I think there should be some distinction between Panthers and Tigers and not that Panthers are simply upgraded Tigers.

I think he means; DON'T DO IT, that's precisely what it means.

[Shanks]

I understand, no matter what I say, the flanking speed will never be returned to the hetzer ..... while the achilles (which can kill a KT) will continue to have flanking speed and also the M10 (which can kill panthers and tigers, even the elephant, with special ammunition), but of course, the hetzer is OP !, wtf

It is not really like "no matter what you say", but what you wrote is not really compeling argument.

- Achilles can kill KT because it is armed with 17 pounders which in general can penetrate heavy tanks. Also Achiles, has way weaker armor than Hetzer (cannot reliably bounce off even 50mm shots) and does not shoot 2 shots from camo before canceling camo.

- Wolverine can kill Panthers and Tigers and bigger stuff, as you said, with special ability which is paid per shot, requires upgrades and has lower range than standard shots (and btw Hetzer has a very similar ability too which gives it chance against heavy tanks of Allies). Also still applies that M10 has weak armor which has hard time bouncing off even medium guns.

So yes, M10s have Flank speed but their armor is weak and can be destroyed by pretty much anything stronger than 37mm AT guns. So let me ask you - would you like to see M10s with armor that can bounce off 75mm L48 shots? If yes, then OK, they will get it and Hetzer gets the Flank speed back. If no, then why is it OK for Axis to have such a unit but not OK for Allies?

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It seems that you are forgetting about the "expert" repair, of the British engineers (in all the doctrines), that give you greater opportunities (Achilles) in front of an AT weapon ... the M10 has to "Pay" to use its Special shot, but it's great !!! and it's cheaper than the hetzer !!! (only 320 MP and 35 fuel) .. the hetzer has a better armor ?, come on ... 57 mm and especially the 6 pdr are very effective vs hetzer, so, what do you mean the hetzer has good armor ?????, even the 75 mm sherman can destroy it, and I'm not lying, you can try it if you want! ... you can destroy it with daimler (300 MP 20 fuel), three shots or even 2 shots, the daimler yes that is a versatile unit !!!!!!!, also the herzer has fixed turret, and is the only tank-hunter in which you could rely on a fast attack, on the axis side, there is no other ... side of the allies you can use, cromwell, achilles, M10, hellcat and give good results, and I do not complain about them ... if you have doubts about the effectiveness of these tank-hunters, I would recommend to see my last repetition of pvp that i up to the forum, where Achilles did a very good job vs. veteran players (who used hetzer)

Note: my english suck, sorry (google translator), but I hope you understand,and I say it again, eliminate the flanking speed of the hetzer, it would make the allies stronger ... I play with all the factions, I'm not just a player of the axis, I just wanted to clarify it