5.1.5 beta v6

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kwok
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby kwok » 23 Aug 2018, 16:20

MEFISTO wrote:for the new at squad, we should remove the 30mm AT grenade because they make the early game and mid game vehicles useless. they are too accurate, long range, and only 50 munitions. they are OP and you don't have a chance to use light vehicles,I think they should still be able to kill units like recces, but they do not need that grenade specifically.


I get the ability is there to keep the unit useful into later stages of the game, but the more I think about it the more I prefer Mefisto's idea. Even though you're not giving the option, there should still be some tradeoff aspect to the squad. By allowing them to have the AT grenade ability it's really making the 50mm obsolete. The AT squad has a maneuverabilty edge on the pak gun with only a very slight trade off in power, essentially the difference between killing a sherman level tank or not. But that power difference is quickly overshadowed by all other units in the axis arsenal that can take on a sherman and are not that much later in the tech progression than the 50mm. I enjoy how I have a reason to use the leig now, but now it seems like it's a shame and waste if I DON'T use the leig.

By removing the AT grenade, there's a sort of gambit tradeoff with using the lieg or 50mm. It becomes a decision of do I want to trade my mid game AT power for AP power. Do I know my opponent well enough? Can I coordinate reward units with my teammates? Something like that. But with the AT grenade on the squad, over many games the chances of me getting killed in a really short time span in a really specific part of the late-mid game are slim enough that it's better to just take the leig and be ready for infantry and rely on my at squad until I can get stug, 75mm pak, AT HT, schrecks, etc.

Is it necsssary for the AT squad to stay viable up to the in the late-mid game? Or can we expect it will be obsolete by then just like the former 37mm pak was (which btw was made obsolete MUCH earlier as it couldn't handle recce's with only its HE rounds keeping it relevant)



The New BK Champion wrote:
Walderschmidt wrote:
As for Mefisto's suggestion - what about locking the AT grenade behind Assault Phase for Germans? That way it's still a tool in the German arsenal, but not immediately available? Or making it like the panzerfaust? Muni to equip and muni to use?

Yeah cuz fuck WH so they have to pay 2x more fuel than others or muni for something that other factions have for granted #bestideaever.
Watch the enemy coming with jeeps and cry

I think you misunderstand him. He means the 30mm AT grenade ability. Jeeps will still get pulverized by early game AT, but the ability to one shot armored cars and penetrate shermans is gained later.

The only thing I'd say about this particular fix is that it doesn't quite change the fact that the 50mm would likely not be used because it's right at the turn when WM goes into assault phase that the 50mm gets overshadowed by better units to begin with.
Last edited by kwok on 23 Aug 2018, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby The New BK Champion » 23 Aug 2018, 16:41

Yeah I must have misunderstood him then. I'd leave the new at squad how they are now. WH needs some buffs finally

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MarKr
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby MarKr » 23 Aug 2018, 17:22

Even if the squad in current sut up makes the 50mm obsolete there are possibly other ways to adjust it rather than remove the ability completely. From top of my head - the ability could have longer cooldowns and/or cost more so that it would be more cost-efficient to build the 50mm rather than keep shooting the AT grenades. Or it could be made to have a bigger chance to miss.

Just throwing ideas here. Anyway, I'll put it on my list of things that should be looked at.
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby mofetagalactica » 23 Aug 2018, 17:59

MarKr wrote:Even if the squad in current sut up makes the 50mm obsolete there are possibly other ways to adjust it rather than remove the ability completely. From top of my head - the ability could have longer cooldowns and/or cost more so that it would be more cost-efficient to build the 50mm rather than keep shooting the AT grenades. Or it could be made to have a bigger chance to miss.

Just throwing ideas here. Anyway, I'll put it on my list of things that should be looked at.


Less range, 65-70 ammo. Please.
Also since this unit its a Nerf for british, welp you should start thinking something to help the CW in the next patch, cause their game opening units until mid game are pretty much devastated by this unit suported with inf.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Walderschmidt » 24 Aug 2018, 07:49

The New BK Champion wrote:Yeah I must have misunderstood him then. I'd leave the new at squad how they are now. WH needs some buffs finally


Kwok got it - you misunderstood me. Glad that was cleared up.

kwok wrote:The only thing I'd say about this particular fix is that it doesn't quite change the fact that the 50mm would likely not be used because it's right at the turn when WM goes into assault phase that the 50mm gets overshadowed by better units to begin with.


50mm's are already not useful before the AT rifle came onto the scene. They have a similar weird, small window of time to be useful like the M8 grayhound. That is, right when you build the Krieg Barracks. But as soon as you upgrade to assault phase you can immediately get the 75mm for 90 mp more. The pak does have late game usefulness for Wehr with its own special at grenade version, but it's so expensive it's rarely used despite it's extreme effectiveness.

I checked the replay where I used it and killed Mefisto's M8.

That means you have to spend 15 + 20 + 25 + 30 (my math may be slightly off) 90 fuel to get access to this 50 muni ability. So I no longer think it's OP or needs to be changed. I understand it's frustrating to see an M8 die so easily, Mefisto, but that is only one game we played where I even used that ability to kill anything period. At least test it out in a few more games before you declare it officially OP. I've rarely used the ability in games with Kwok because of the tech limitation and never had issues with the accuracy of the AT rifle except where it was 100% accurate against emplacements and decrewed them 100% of the time. However, the devs have already fixed that at your request (and well spotted, too) so you and I both know they devs will do what they can to make the AT rifle good, but not game breaking.

Back to the replay - I got a puma at roughly the 9 min mark. You got an M8 about 40 sec to a minute later. I got assault phase about 1 minute after I got the puma. I killed your M8 at 10:56. Look at the screen. I had 144 fuel and 478 mp. I could easily have gotten 75mm at gun, a stubby puma, or gotten t3 building and a stug had I changed what I bought (for example built t3 bldg instead of puma). My point is that, I killed your M8 at the time when I could have had any one of four options to kill it. You got the M8 out slow.

20180824013939_1.jpg


Lastly, you, Kwok, and I think the game was desynced. If you see the screenshot, you see that my at rifle was at less than half its max range away from the M8 - so it's not unreasonable for it to hit. But if the game was desynced, maybe you ordered your M8 to move away before it got shot on your screen, but because of desync, it stayed stationary, which meant my at rifle was more accurate.

In short - don't make any changes to the AT rifle yet. We can always patch it later or hotfix it. One game where it immediately hits, pens, and kills the M8 with the 50 muni shot does not immediately mean it was OP.

Besides, I haven't played much against the German at rifle myself.

Tiger1996 wrote:
Walderschmidt wrote:P.S. Second suggestion, what if enemy players can't see how much vet your units have? (or only if they click on the unit?)

Nah, I know that this would make it harder for your opponent identifying your most elite unit.. and thus he won't be always focusing his guns on it.
However, I believe it will be pretty bad on some other aspects.. visually in particular. I can't support this suggestion...


That is the point.

And the enemy is always gonna focus fire your big tanks no matter what vet they have.

Tiger1996 wrote:Your other suggestion was good though.. about removing HE icons above vehicles.


Thank you.

MarKr wrote:
Walderschmidt wrote:P.S. Second suggestion, what if enemy players can't see how much vet your units have? (or only if they click on the unit?)
There are certain things that the engine allows to see only to you and your team mates (e.g. the "Kicker texts" - showing up when you activate for example HE shot, saying "HE shot loaded") and then are things are always visible to everyone - this was the case for the "allied warmachine" the "arrow icon" above tanks when the ability was active. The only way to make it invisible to opponents was to remove it completely.
I am not 100% sure now but I think that Veterancy levels are the category that is always visible to both sides.


IIRC, Halftrack was able to make it so that the enemy couldn't see your veterancy but you could (in this https://www.moddb.com/mods/battle-of-the-bulge/downloads/battle-of-the-bulge-35-documentation). I don't know how he did it, but he may tell you if you're still in touch with him.

Veterancy Mechanic (Asymetry of Info).PNG


All in all, I'm a fan of more aysmetry of information in this game.

Wald

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby MenciusMoldbug » 24 Aug 2018, 08:32

MarKr wrote:
MenciusMoldbug wrote:I think tanks like the Stuart deserve the Pak 37mm Halftrack treatment. 15 to switch to HE; then switching back to AP and then back again to HE should cost 15 again(like cromwells)
This could work, I guess.


Before I add on to this point, I would like to say thank you Markr and the rest of the developer team for your hard work.

I did some further testing with the Stuarts, and another thing that bugged me about the Stuart is that it has a very low damage 'roof.' I.E. - a stormtrooper can take a Stuart 37mm HE to the body(or face) and not die because the max damage a Stuart HE shell does is 80 and a single stormtrooper model has 95 HP. I would like it if Stuarts get changed next patch or for some other time for a light tank re-work; where their damage roof can be increased. Like going from 40 damage to 50; or minimum 50 and 50 maximum(50-50) in corsix. So that Elite Infantry can't just 'tank' shots from its main gun.

Reason I found Pak 37mm HE Halftracks so dangerous and useful in my games is because their damage is 60-60 with double damage in the center of the blast radius; meaning they can outright wipe out entire squads in a single shot from the gun. I think that if the Stuart HE got a damage increase so it wasn't so weak to use against elite infantry surviving its direct shots to their bodies it would be a very useful tank to get; instead of just skipping straight to the tank depot instead. It could even be turned into a cheap mans anti-infantry tank in the late game because of its cost effectiveness at killing infantry. Chaffee I feel is 'ok' in its current state for its cost because it has a good HE shell and ambush camouflage to use it with.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Aug 2018, 11:35

MenciusMoldbug wrote:
MarKr wrote:
MenciusMoldbug wrote:I think tanks like the Stuart deserve the Pak 37mm Halftrack treatment. 15 to switch to HE; then switching back to AP and then back again to HE should cost 15 again(like cromwells)
This could work, I guess.


Before I add on to this point, I would like to say thank you Markr and the rest of the developer team for your hard work.

I did some further testing with the Stuarts, and another thing that bugged me about the Stuart is that it has a very low damage 'roof.' I.E. - a stormtrooper can take a Stuart 37mm HE to the body(or face) and not die because the max damage a Stuart HE shell does is 80 and a single stormtrooper model has 95 HP. I would like it if Stuarts get changed next patch or for some other time for a light tank re-work; where their damage roof can be increased. Like going from 40 damage to 50; or minimum 50 and 50 maximum(50-50) in corsix. So that Elite Infantry can't just 'tank' shots from its main gun.

Reason I found Pak 37mm HE Halftracks so dangerous and useful in my games is because their damage is 60-60 with double damage in the center of the blast radius; meaning they can outright wipe out entire squads in a single shot from the gun. I think that if the Stuart HE got a damage increase so it wasn't so weak to use against elite infantry surviving its direct shots to their bodies it would be a very useful tank to get; instead of just skipping straight to the tank depot instead. It could even be turned into a cheap mans anti-infantry tank in the late game because of its cost effectiveness at killing infantry. Chaffee I feel is 'ok' in its current state for its cost because it has a good HE shell and ambush camouflage to use it with.


I checked it myself yesterday and thought same. But keep in mind that stuart has greater AOE and also the damage reduces less quickly outside of the center. But the damage of 50-50 seems fair to prevent tanking shots. Also you forgot the 1.5 damage modifier vs most infantry types. So a direct hit would or should deal 120 damage. Exception is heroic inf type, here the damage doesnt get boosted for the alli and only for the axis one.
The Axis 37 mm has also less scatter. The TT´s are a bit weird too. The axis usually suffers 25% accuracy penalty when the infantry is moving. The US one always suffers an accuracy penalty of 25%. So scatter and accuracy penalty is probably that what makes the actual difference. The only inf type that US one hits better is type_heroic but as said has no damage boost here.




Walderschmidt wrote:

Veterancy Mechanic (Asymetry of Info).PNG

All in all, I'm a fan of more aysmetry of information in this game.

Wald


Cool. But how recons can get vet?
I like asymetry of information, too.
Last edited by Warhawks97 on 24 Aug 2018, 11:50, edited 3 times in total.

kwok
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby kwok » 24 Aug 2018, 11:40

Warhawks97 wrote:
Cool. But how recons can get vet?
I like asymetry of information, too.


in botb they have guns

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 24 Aug 2018, 12:20

Walderschmidt wrote:
IIRC, Halftrack was able to make it so that the enemy couldn't see your veterancy but you could (in this https://www.moddb.com/mods/battle-of-the-bulge/downloads/battle-of-the-bulge-35-documentation). I don't know how he did it, but he may tell you if you're still in touch with him.

Veterancy Mechanic (Asymetry of Info).PNG

All in all, I'm a fan of more aysmetry of information in this game.

Wald


Me im not a Fan of removing veterancy squads ui's in game, even the HE on tanks, its i think very important to have some sort of minimal infos regarding your opponent, if you remove all that, the pro might be ok with it, but the beginners won't keep up with this game, so im not for removing ui's in COH.
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby MarKr » 24 Aug 2018, 12:45

Walderschmidt wrote:IIRC, Halftrack was able to make it so that the enemy couldn't see your veterancy but you could (in this https://www.moddb.com/mods/battle-of-the-bulge/downloads/battle-of-the-bulge-35-documentation). I don't know how he did it, but he may tell you if you're still in touch with him.

Veterancy Mechanic (Asymetry of Info).PNG
After seeing the screen, I guess I know how he did that. The veterancy is shown above units (you can see that even without selecting them) and in the command panel after selelcting them. I thought that opponent can see them both, but if opponent cannot see the veterancy when he clicks on your units, then it is doable. Though we would like to keep this one.

MenciusMoldbug wrote:I did some further testing with the Stuarts, and another thing that bugged me about the Stuart is that it has a very low damage 'roof.' I.E. - a stormtrooper can take a Stuart 37mm HE to the body(or face) and not die because the max damage a Stuart HE shell does is 80 and a single stormtrooper model has 95 HP. I would like it if Stuarts get changed next patch or for some other time for a light tank re-work; where their damage roof can be increased. Like going from 40 damage to 50; or minimum 50 and 50 maximum(50-50) in corsix. So that Elite Infantry can't just 'tank' shots from its main gun.
In a sense, this won't solve it either. You give example of Stormtroopers who have 95HP. 50x2=100, also as Hawks said infantry takes more damage from the gun, but then they again take less damage when they are in cover (-25% when in yellow, -50% when in green), then also the Storms with the "training unlock" they take 25% less damage. In order to make sure that a direct hit always kills even these high HP soldiers the modifier would need to be like x5 but then it also makes more damage in the AoE...it is not that easy to set it exactly as you wish.
Anyway, if the Stuart had higher effiency vs infantry with its HE gun, wouldn't it be too strong in early game? Easily killing weapon teams (it has same armor as Recce so it can bounce early AT and now survive 3-4 hits from AT rifle). I wouldn't want to overbuff this unit...
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Aug 2018, 13:25

MarKr wrote:Anyway, if the Stuart had higher effiency vs infantry with its HE gun, wouldn't it be too strong in early game? Easily killing weapon teams (it has same armor as Recce so it can bounce early AT and now survive 3-4 hits from AT rifle). I wouldn't want to overbuff this unit...



The Stuart is used perhaps once in 15 games. Its one of the most un-used units in the game. There is only one AT gun it can withstand now: The 37 mm AT gun from PE. But since PE quite often gets the 28 mm vehicle and other early mobile AT anyway this "advantage" is gone.

It comes at a time where axis can get the Puma with 75 mm stubby or 50 mm which already play in a higher league. The Chaffe can compete with them but not the stuart. Both largely outclass the stuart in all aspects and have timed but way more powerfull HE as well as smoke abilities, stationary modes and armor to withstand Greyhounds 37 mm gun shots sometimes (and perhaps even stuarts guns)

That means the stuart has to become stronger to compete (in terms of firepower) or it shouldnt require the motorpool upgrade anymore and being available for slightly cheaper cost. And even then most would prefer the Greyhound since that so called "armor" on stuart doesnt really compensate for all the other shortcomings it has.

Also the accuracy of the HE vs Infantry is a huge disadvantage as it suffers always from it. The accuracy penatly vs inf in general+ penalties vs inf and cover etc makes it quite often failing. The scatter makes things worse and at best you get perhaps a hit that is close enough to trigger the max distant damage of the AoE.

So no more accuracy penalty vs not moving inf (give it stats like the german 37 in this regard) is at least required. The damage could be upped to 45 to lessen the chance for solider to simply "tank" them.

And either build cost or the time of availablity or requirments is simply too high.


There could be a mix of improvments in all these areas.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Shanks » 24 Aug 2018, 22:14

Panzerblitz1 wrote:
Walderschmidt wrote:
IIRC, Halftrack was able to make it so that the enemy couldn't see your veterancy but you could (in this https://www.moddb.com/mods/battle-of-the-bulge/downloads/battle-of-the-bulge-35-documentation). I don't know how he did it, but he may tell you if you're still in touch with him.

Veterancy Mechanic (Asymetry of Info).PNG

All in all, I'm a fan of more aysmetry of information in this game.

Wald


Me im not a Fan of removing veterancy squads ui's in game, even the HE on tanks, its i think very important to have some sort of minimal infos regarding your opponent, if you remove all that, the pro might be ok with it, but the beginners won't keep up with this game, so im not for removing ui's in COH.



mmmm, I did not think about the new ones, so, I think panzerblitz1 is right

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Aug 2018, 13:20

Hmm, so...

Some additional changes were delayed to the next 5.1.6 beta... And the reasons given were:
- "because 5.1.5 took too long now and it shouldn't be postponed any longer, so it's time to finally release it officially" right?
However, now some days later.. the patch has not been released yet!

Let me guess why.. because Mr.Wolf is the only guy in the entire community who can update it on Steam, but the dude has been offline for almost a month now and he doesn't answer. So we are all waiting for the boss to be finally online once again.. or am I wrong?
Well, I really hope that i'm wrong...

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Wolf » 25 Aug 2018, 17:34

You are wrong
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 25 Aug 2018, 18:55

Oh, good morning then!
Glad you are still alive :D

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Wolf » 25 Aug 2018, 23:44

Beta was updated with files that should be final and released later today as 5.1.5 version.
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Aug 2018, 00:05

KoOol :)

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Viper » 26 Aug 2018, 00:08

Tiger1996 wrote:KoOol :)

time for a bk video with the shermanator? ;)

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Aug 2018, 00:15

Nah, not yet ^^
We have decided to postpone that until both Bk Mod v5.1.6 and Historical Add-On v2.4.3 are released first.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby kwok » 26 Aug 2018, 01:46

I just read the changelog agian, if i recall there was talk about rear armor adjustments? was that added in?

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby MarKr » 26 Aug 2018, 02:06

@kwok: rear armor in general is weaker. During the beta there was only one complaint about "bugged" armor on Tigers which proved to be off. We've got no other reports about issues in this area so it stayed. But future adjustmens are possible if needed.
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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby kwok » 26 Aug 2018, 02:52

Nah to be honest i haven’t gotten enough games to feel the difference. Just wondering cuz I got into a discussion with another player who was upset that the king tiger could take shots in the rear like it was nothing. So I told him that the beta addresses that but couldn’t provide exact info.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Aug 2018, 03:10

Wait, wait. I can't let this just simply pass...

MarKr wrote:During the beta there was only one complaint about "bugged" armor on Tigers which proved to be off. We've got no other reports about issues in this area so it stayed. But future adjustmens are possible if needed.

I can't see anyone reporting about "bugged rear armor" for Tigers.

The guy you often recall as "Someone" has only said this:
Tiger1996 wrote:When I played the beta.. the Tiger1 seemed extremely weak (armor wise) because the armor feels like paper... It's really weak. Reason is most hits actually count as rear hits for some reason, and since that the rear is weaker now.. it often gets penetrated by anything really.

And I honestly can't see the word "bugged" in it, not the word "glitch" even... Clearly, "someone" was only telling what he had seen in his testing(s).

"Someone" also said:
Tiger1996 wrote:The situation is even worse with Panther tanks btw. I don't know... Panthers seem to have their butt in the front somehow, nearly.. every 3rd shell counts as rear hit, and suddenly... BOOM.

Which means that he was speaking generally about the rear armor adjustments in the beta and how it's affecting Axis more...
And not about Tigers rear in particular.. also, that "someone" has mentioned:
Tiger1996 wrote:Those weren't testing scenarios... I mean that in a true PvP situation, no one is going to attack a Tiger1 with a single 75mm Sherman, but possibly 3 ones or more, and the Tiger1 won't stand still.. it will try to relocate itself all the time, in order to avoid getting flanked or exposed to arty... Hitting the rear of the tank seems to be a lot easier when the enemy tank is moving, and with 9 seconds reload.. the Tiger1 will mostly lose.

And also "someone" said this:
Tiger1996 wrote:Balance wise.. in a real PvP, such situations are simply EXTREME.

So, i was clearly expressing my point of view right there... And not reporting any BUG(s).

It's a pity though how you ended up wasting your time in a test of your own where you tried to prove that there was no bug with Tigers rear.
Despite that there was nothing to prove.. because no one reported any bugs in the first place!

Meh; don't be surprised that I had to repeat my stuff over and over again, you clearly have some serious issues understanding what I type...

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Jalis » 26 Aug 2018, 07:45

Someone seems work hard to raise Tiger and panther armour when really far worst situation exist on allies side. ;-)
Even situation slowly become better, There is still lot of issues with TT at bk. If peoples start passionate debat for each bug/glitch they find it will quickly become a mess.

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Re: 5.1.5 beta v6

Postby Tiger1996 » 26 Aug 2018, 10:00

Despite that I said a lot about the rear armor changes.. yet, I never said that the rear armor for heavies need to be improved again... On the contrary, I said this:
Tiger1996 wrote:in my opinion, you really don't have to lower the rear penetration chance for anything.. what is better, is giving more range to the heavies. With this long reload time, combined with weak rear armor... The long range will be more than justified.

Which means that I suggested to give more range for the heavies (on both sides, Axis and Allies) as compensation to their weak rear armor.. and not to improve the rear again.

Regardless, my point here is not to re-open the discussion about any of this. However, i just wanted to clarify how MarKr shouldn't complain when I keep repeating my points over and over again.. because he clearly has troubles understanding my words. Thus, I would stop repeating myself only when he finally starts to read correctly what I'm saying and understand me in a proper way.


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