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Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 29 Jun 2018, 16:33
by kwok
I'm pretty sure post ww2 the geneva convention was signed and in article 6 it specifically says: AT BOYs will not be represented in an unrealistic way in all future representations of the weapon. just saying, you could be committing a war crime.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 29 Jun 2018, 16:52
by The New BK Champion
I dont get why is Hawks so overreacting about it...

Adding a new unit is always nice. The problem is it's just hard to balance, but not impossible of course. I don't think that replacing the pak with a rifle is a failed idea. Just very tricky to incorporate into current early game balance. And I really like the return of threadbreaker ability (as long as it is not bugged out)

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 30 Jun 2018, 00:41
by Warhawks97
Ok, Markr.

1. Why it never got mentioned here in forum? I dont really have the time to get through all the spam in discord so i skipp most of the stuff there.
2. Even if there a request to make a "one to one copy", why following this demand? What if i demanded a 75 mm Tank IV gun dealing tiger gun damage? Even that would probably make more sense as to make a 7,92 mm bullet acting like a 13 mm.
3. Refering to point 2. You make a 7,92 mm rifle being like a 13 mm which already overperforms but which was accpeted due to balance aspects. But making bringing a US 76 mm gun on same level to axis 75 mm Tank IV guns is such a HUGE issue. I think this 7,92 mm rifle is even a bigger issue when it performs like an 37 mm AT gun or like an already unrealistic 13 mm AT rifle.
4. Why 65 range? Do you really want a "wild hunt" and easy anti vehicle gameplay?
5. Why AT rifles dont simply have a penetration drop like all kinetic based AT weapons have?

@New BK champion? Have you ever played the mod with tread breaker? Total bullshit. Pay for immobilization as if he rifle (or any other weapon) uses a modern laser guided shot (today laser guided bullets really exist) to exactly knocking out an engine.
For AT rifles it becomes ridiculously as it feels like you have a squad on a "vehicle safari hunt" trip.

I dont hate the idea of this rifle, its just that it got implemented so imprudently: "Oh, players want axis AT rifle as copy to brits, fine, lets do this.... fuck of all debates, fuck of all realistic aspects, fuck off everything". I mean usually you are the one debatting (eg 76 mm gun) years, asking and placing billions of questions about what if, how, why, is it neccessary, is it smart, balance, do we have to consider a few realistic aspects, is it smart to replace an weapon crew with something different....".... and now.... "oh, a discord dude asked for something, better we dont piss him off".... and *bam*, "request accepted, we simply overlook everything.".... It almost feels like you got corrupt and took money for it.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 30 Jun 2018, 01:50
by Panzerblitz1
A better solution will be provided.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 30 Jun 2018, 02:36
by Warhawks97
The New BK Champion wrote:I And I really like the return of threadbreaker ability (as long as it is not bugged out)

Ask yourself.

1. What happens if the shot counts as bounce? Ammo wasted and player complain about a not working ability? Same what happens if the shot fails?
2. If it destroyes engine or tracks for sure, why do we even haven pen and accuracy values.

Answer: The old Boys AT treadbreaker was OP. Even when the shot failed to hit the target the engine blew up. So what nonsense is it? Super high velocity shot with such a shock wave that it kills the engine even when it fails to hit?
That means for the gameplay: Damn, i fail to pen (eg vs recce), pay 50 ammo and you get your guranteed "missed penetration shot". Also certain vehicles are super cruical for a factions survival. For WH its the Puma, for CW the recce. This way you pay 50 ammo, just like that and get rid of it. Stay save with your fucking 65 range bc the heavy al 50 is a water pistol that cant reach that range.
And if you use double squad like CW does it..... good night all vehicles.... rest in peace. We give a shit on accuracy and pen values... if necessary we pay some "money" for the success. Its like activating a cheat by paying ressources instead of entering a some sort of secret key.
+ I will demand treadbreaker for all units that are somehow anti tank.... I mean you could give it to a whatever tank. Imagine a sherman 75... I cant pen its armor? well, lets aim the tracks and its done. It wouldnt be even unrealistic to give such orders to your unit to aim for specific spots on a target. Just dont make it a "pay for...." shit.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 26 Jul 2018, 20:06
by MarKr
We have an update for you regarding the beta. There has been no word on the beta for a few weeks because we ran into some serious issue with one thing we're working on and we needed to solve it before releasing it live.

Anyway, there has been negative feedback on the introduction of the PzB39 in the last beta. The most criticized thing was that the rifle overperformed in comparison to its real-life performance. We explained why it was implemented that way but people still complained abou the same thing nonetheless. Then someone was really loud and used a lot of bad words and exageration to express their disaproval of return of the treadbreaker ability and there were also some bugs connected with the rifle itself. On the other hand there were people who supported the idea of an AT rifle squad in Wehrmacht faction. It was quite lucky that we discovered a solution that will (hopefully) receive a better feedback than the PzB39.

We got our hands on a functioning model of GrB39. For those of you who are not familiar with it and don't want to waste time reading on Wikipedia about this thing, here is a short info:
Panzerb├╝chse 39 (PzB39) was ineffective against anything that had stronger armor than a Halftrack so later they were upgraded/rebuilt into Granatb├╝chse 39 (GrB39). The rifle was (by adjusting its barrel) turned into a grenade launching rifle, with a variety of available ammunition. The grenades used a shaped charge so their penetrative potential was the same regardless of distance. There were 30mm, 46mm and 61mm variants of grenades which could penetrate up to 70mm, 93mm and 125mm of steel respectively and also some other types of grenades that could be fired such as smoke grenades or anti-personel grenades.

So now Wehrmacht has an early squad armed with one GrB39:

The squad is mostly similar to the PzB39 squad from Beta v4:
- 4 men
- 1x MP40, 2xKar98, 1xGrB39
- basic range of GrB39 is 65
- can build sandbags/barbedwires
- Point capture speed 0.75
- Cost 240MP

However the squad differs in available abilities:
The GrB39 fires by default 30mm AT grenades - these are effective vs lightly armored targets such as Jeeps, Armored Cars, Halftracks and to some extend even against light tanks. Due to the fact that these AT grenades carry shaped charge, they have not AoE and thus are quite inefective vs infantry (if you manage to directly hit a soldier with the grenade, it will kill him but the chance for such a hit is low). Abilities of the squad are focused on usage of different types of ammunition.

In the piture the first ability from left is (as you probably guessed already) a 30mm anti-personel grenade. It behaves similarly to other HE riflenades in the game - it has good accuracy vs soldiers in buildings and vs emplacements but still has trouble hitting infantry that is not garrisoned. Use these grenades to decrew emplacements or clear garrisoned troops inside buildings from distance. It can be fired at non-garrisoned squads too but the shot is likely to miss, land away from the squad and deal limited to none damage but if the RNG is with you, you might get lucky enough to hit the center of the squad and deal serious damage too. This ability costs 20 ammo and is available by default.

Second ability enables you to fire a 46mm AT grenade. The basic 30mm AT grenade is very ineffective vs medium tanks, this grenade can reliably penetrate any medium tank and deal serious damage. This ability costs 50 ammo and is available after the Assault phase upgrade is finished.

Last ability allows you to fire a smoke grenade. You can use it defensively (fire it at own troops to avoid getting hit) or offensively (at emplacements/MG teams) to allow safe approach to your infantry. This ability costs 15 ammo and is available by default.

The weapon model came with specific projectile models for the smoke, 30mm, 46mm and even the 61mm grenades. This means we could implement the 61mm version too but with the penetration potential of 125mm of steel we considered it too strong and decided to leave it out from the game.

This part is for people who have some knowledge of the engine and the damage system in the game. I will "hide" this by spoiler tag because I am worried that people without the required knowledge will just freak out about it because of not understanding the whole thing.
TL;DR version: You don't need to read the spoiler part if you don't know how to use Corsix. ;)
Spoiler: show
Now a little bit about the gun itself. Shaped charge grenades would never "bounce off" they would always explode on impact (unless it would be a defective piece) and the armor would either be weak enough to get penetrated, or strong enough to withstand the explosion. Maybe because of this the gun does not even have a "bounce off" animation. This creates a little problem in the game engine - the game creates the appropriate explosion effect only if a grenade penetrates or hits the ground. If the grenade gets into a situation where it does not penetrate you will not see the typical bounced off shell (the animation is not there, as mentioned above) but the game does not show any explosion either which results in a weird situation where you can positively see that the shot reached the target but there is not explosion and no damage to the target either, leading to pretty understandable "WTF???" moment. This means that the grenades are set to always penetrate any target (in order to the shot to always create the explosion effect). Those of you who now start to freak out in panic that a 30mm AT grenade will kill their Super Pershing - calm down. The effectiveness of the gun is set in damage dealt to targets. So yes, the 30mm grenade always penetrates any tank (if it hits, ofcourse), no matter if it is Chaffee or Pershing, however the grenade deals good damage to Chaffee (about 1/3 of HP) but damage to Pershing is about 0.005 (so practically no damage). We set the grenades in such a way that they deal good damage to things to which they should be able to deal damage, but about 0 damage to things they should not be able to harm.

The problem here is that in the game we can set different penetration for front and rear hits but we cannot set different damage for front and rear hits. So in ideal case the default 30mm AT grenade should deal no damage to Shermans if they hit the tank frontaly but should be able to penetrate the tank if they hit from rear. The engine does not allow this so gun simply works the way that the default AT grenade is effective vs armored targets up to the tier of light tanks but deals little damage to medium tanks and practically no damage to heavy tanks. The 46mm grenade (ability) is very effective vs light vehicles, does good damage to medium tanks (usually about 50-60% of max HP) and can deals some small damage even to heavy tanks (but nothing substantial).

So no need for comments from certain individual about how "bullshit and unrealistic it is that this or that cannot penetrate this or that from rear". We know that, but this is the best we can get.

The squad is still without any camouflage options. This is intentional. We would like this squad to be a support unit in the early game and not an ambush unit. The GrB39 has a range of 65 but the squad itself has view range of 60. So if you want to use its full potential combine it with Volks or some other unit who will go ahead and spot for targets. Other AT squads can camouflage to increase their accuracy - this squad cannot use camo so to compensate for it, they have a bit higher accuracy by default. On the other hand the opponent can always see them and so he knows where to be careful with early vehicles. The GrB39 can miss and has accuracy penalty vs moving targets so once you spot the squad with your vehicles you can either decide to retreat (and not risk your unit) or you can try to attack them - in either way, keeping your vehicles on the move gives them better chance to avoid being hit. For GrB39 still applies that the closer the target, the easier it is to hit it so if you decide to attack the squad with a vehicle, rushing directly towards them might not be the best idea.

We will try to release the next beta in few days. We mainly need to balance out the accuracy of the unit vs early game vehicles and the damage it deals to these units. Sofar the hit-to-kill ratio is set in similar way as it is for PaK36 - Jeeps can be one-shotted, HTs, armored cars, light tanks take 2 shots (maximum 3).

That is all for now :)

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 26 Jul 2018, 20:12
by kwok
Awwww yissss. Is this in the beta currently?

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 26 Jul 2018, 21:50
by Tiger1996
The images don't load, says that I am not authorized to view them? Are they picked up from the internal section of the forum?!
That would be the only possible way to explain why some others can't see it as well.

And btw MarKr;
Even your logo signature doesn't show up, and when I click on it.. it says the sight can't be reached, but that's a different issue I suppose.

Going to test it out for sure though.. but honestly I still don't understand why so much work and efforts were spent on this new unit in particular, while it's not really that much requested or even admired, as I really doubt that anyone is even excited about it in the first place.

Not trying to disappoint you or anything.. but other new units (Pz.3M for example) were previously requested many times on Discord by several people.. but were quickly disregarded... Which really makes me wonder on the other hand about the motivations behind adding this new AT rifle.

I mean like.. is it paid or something? Don't get me wrong, I just don't get why the devs are so keen and devoted to add this new AT rifle in particular! This new AT Rifle doesn't even look THAT much beautiful after all, as it's not really worth the efforts in my opinion.

That being said, these efforts are definitely always appreciated anyways.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 26 Jul 2018, 22:04
by MarKr
@kwok: It is not yet available for beta - will be in few days.

@Tiger: Pictures should be visible now.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 26 Jul 2018, 22:11
by Tiger1996
Yes, I confirm that now they are visible.

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 26 Jul 2018, 22:39
by The New BK Champion
I like this idea, looking forward to testing

Re: 5.1.5 Beta v4

Posted: 27 Jul 2018, 07:58
by speeddemon02
Very awesome, looking forward to them