4.9.9 Patch Preview

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Warhawks97
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 04 Aug 2017, 19:05

Sure i wont. Panthers will still escape quickly because of the acceleration advantage. All it probably changes is that shermans, once ordered to move forward, will just rush even faster into AT guns and the like which makes any controle even harder. I think it will require some "bot controle" tools which enables me to leave controle of certain units to bots. The style of "how to use shermans" will be pretty much the same. I may add US CPU heavy to allied team in addition to CW players. Bot can make a much better use of it.

I know how fast basic M10 is and its 5.1 i just wouldnt like to see the 8 going this fast.


I would like to see e8 able to pen Tank IV´s. In past games i had several encounters in which e8 flanked or surprised me but kept bouncing even when they got closer. He was quite close actually. That happend even several times in single matches. Luckily ive been the stupid axis boy rushing mindlessly into that "easy" surprise and crushing the e8´s (and two AT squads) at once with a single "H".

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Tiger1996
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Aug 2017, 00:20

Panzerblitz1 wrote:The funny thing regarding the speed change is that you will even barely noticed it if we didn't told you that, its not that a big deal, really.
We will see after some tests and tweak it if it needs to be tweaked.

I would have probably never noticed any change in the speed of the M4 Sherman when it is all about changing it maybe from 3.8 only to 4.0 or whatever. Nonetheless, I guess I would have definitely noticed something if it would be changed from 3.8 to 4.6 on the other hand... As I would say that this is such a huge speed buff, can not go unnoticed.

And now there is a talk about reducing the speed of Panthers instead of buffing the speed of Shermans that much. At first I said that I basically don't have problems with that, yet.. I really wonder.
When did Allied tanks suddenly become too slow in the game??!! Or I would better say.. when did Panthers suddenly become too fast?? Pretty much the majority of Allied tanks and tank hunters are in fact faster than any other Axis tanks. There was never a speed issue at BK in terms of gameplay and balance! At least for the many past years. As I honestly can't see why right now you suddenly have to change the speeds at all in the first place.

Let alone the insane basic speed of the Comet in addition to the flank speed ability.. and let's speak about Panthers, if u take a deeper look into it.. isn't the Panther supposedly the fastest tank the WH faction could get accordingly to its basic speed?? Ya. Actually the fastest WH tank; is apparently the Panther. Except that somehow the Tiger1 could be faster thanks to the flank speed ability... That's why I believe that lowering the speed of Panthers any further would only result in another mess. Not only that such a change would make Panthers seem slower compared to Tigers.. but this could massively hurt the overall combat effectiveness of Panthers whenever compared to Tigers.

Keeping in mind that Panthers are available only later than Tigers, therefore Panthers are cheaper.. with less abilities, but in return better basic performance. NOW, given these facts.. don't u think that touching the basic performance of Panthers would actually corrupt this whole concept down here?? Why would anybody go for Panthers then if they become just as slow as Tigers but also without flank speed, not to mention that they are available later as well??!! Panthers might not be worth it anymore. As it's already too difficult to hunt down later Sherman models using Tigers without the flank speed ability...
Do u think a Tiger could currently catch an Easy8 Sherman without the flank speed ability?? Only unless you keep running after the Sherman until you expose all ur flanks, and at this moment your Tiger is dead. So why does the Easy8 have to be even faster than the Panther?! Aren't Jacksons and Pershings already enough??!! Would you be able to compete the Pershing with IVH/J the same way how you are currently able to compete the Tiger using 76 Shermans? The 76 Shermans (specifically when sandbagged and over-repaired) are already not an easy target for Tigers, not to mention that the 76 Shermans (including the Easy8) are also able to penetrate Tigers much better than IVH/J are ever able to penetrate Pershings the other way around. And isn't the Easy8 already as fast as the Panther?! Or why does Panzer IVs have to be much slower than Shermans more than they are already?

Not asking for a discussion here, but I just hope if you all get my point...

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby kwok » 05 Aug 2017, 01:31

To me panthers have always been too fast. Or what a mean to say is "too everything". Many units have tradeoffs and are at max good at 2/3 things only: mobility, power, durability. This 2/3 rule is important for gameplay/funwise for both ends of a game (user and opponent). A unit too good at everything is only fun for user but not opponent. Panther excels at all. A nerf in any category I think would make it more "balanced" and it becomes a matter of which to nerf to make logical gameplay and (loosely speaking) historical sense. Devs chose to change its mobility.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Aug 2017, 02:30

Panther has no trade offs and also good at everything? Hmm, what? o.O is that's why Panthers often get out-ranged and also out-gunned or one-shotted by Fireflys?? Panthers are also only good at dying sometimes. So I wonder if u would consider "dying" as also a part of "good at everything" btw? The only good Panther is Ausf.G but in fact both other versions (Ausf.A and Ausf.D) are almost crap on the other hand.

And the Panther.G is available after 7 Command Point, that's already a big disadvantage... Pershing is available 2 command points earlier.. and the Jackson is available 3 command points earlier. Not to mention the low HP of Panthers and the lack of good abilities compared to Tigers. So much about having no trade offs! And how about the rate of fire?? Not to mention the Panther.D is more or less an more armored version of the M10 Wolverine, nothing else really.
And the Panther.A is basically not worth it (since it doesn't have scopes upgrade too) compared to Blitz doc Tiger which is earlier available with also way better abilities, including flank speed.. meaning even better mobility!!!
The only disadvantage is how Tigers are more expensive though.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Aug 2017, 02:59

So much crying about the changes to sherman's speed omg, nobody is using E8's everyone is just rushing into pershings jacksons and just using M3HE, just give it a fucking chance dude u didnt even try it in game, i hope we start seeing More E8's and mixed sherman formations than before, and btw panther as a really fast aceleration for his speed, so its fine changes to shermans are fine you're not gonna lose a panther vs shermans anyway, and the comet its a fucking tank hunter it dosnt have a shreding mg on the top or something like the panthers :)

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby kwok » 05 Aug 2017, 04:20

Objectively yes, panthers have above average stats across mobility, durability, and power relative to every other unit in bk (the G at least).
And yeah, you're right in that its cost and CP delay is a disadvantage. But, when it DOES come out it becomes an inherently not-fun unit to play against. A balanced game isn't necessarily a fun game. Otherwise tic-tac-toe would be a fun game. This concept is ONLY in the frame PVP though... compstomp is a different story because it is a one-sided interface game.

I'm not promoting or suggesting this idea I'm about to say... I'm saying that I believe that the following idea is a better game design decision:
Easier availability of a panther with a more apparent weakness is a better pvp oriented unit design than a panther that is very strong in all cases but not as easily available.
Even the tiger is a better designed unit because it is slower (except with flank speed which has a decision cost) and has higher chance of getting penetrated. I don't like the concept of the super pershing but even that is a better designed unit i think.

I won't comment on other subjective claims about the stats of the panther when they are easily searched in corsix to be disproved.

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Medic Truck
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Medic Truck » 05 Aug 2017, 10:52

It should also be kept in mind that HE M4 Shermans are very good at their role already. So, I would suggest not changing their speeds. But, rather go for slight increase for 76s/E8s ones but not to '5'. And a very little, very little acceleration/deacceleration tone downs for Panthers.

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MarKr
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby MarKr » 05 Aug 2017, 12:50

In a good faith of stopping this neverending talks which won't solve anything in the end, here is something for you:

M4 gets (in the unification process) speed buff from 3.8 to 4.1 (trust me, you won't notice it at all because 0.3 difference is so small that it is pretty much unnoticeable), 76(W) will get speed nerf to 4.1 (from 4.2 - again, you won't notice a thing for same reason as with M4), Croc will get a speed nerf to 4.1 (from 5.2 - again you won't notice anything because you don't use Croc). All of these three get acceleration buff which, again, you will hardly notice. Calli gets speed nerf and E8 keeps its 4.6 speed but get acceleration buff.

In WM Panthers A and G get small speed nerf and acceleration nerf which seems huge but in the game it is not that much noticeable either. PE Panther gets speed buff but acceleration nerf. Jagdpanther was over the top too with its speed and acceleration so adjustments are there too.
For those who always use the "historical accuracy" BS argument - Panther D was early model with stronger engine which accelerated slower but was able to get to faster speeds, models A, G and JP got different engine with speed limiters so they were slower but were able to accelerate faster when compared to "D".

So there you go.
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Warhawks97
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 05 Aug 2017, 13:03

Good. The D had not a more powerfull engine, it had 50 hp less. But the engine had more rounds per minute for higher speed but short engine lifespan. Thats why A and G had engine with limited rpm.

However, i am glad that you fixed the acclerations (which is atually a lot more important than pure speed when it comes to mobility).


@kwok. To your three attribute thing. Mobility, durability and power. I would add a fourth called upkeep. I think thats another important factor as it determines how many units from one type you can field before the upkeep doesnt allow any increase of the ammount of (the same) unit(s).

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Aug 2017, 13:30

@MarKr
Sherman speed adjustments sound good now. But I am curious why Panthers A and G get both speed nerf and also acceleration nerf at the same time.. are they now as slow as Tigers?? Can you tell some numbers? You mentioned absolutely no numbers when u came to speak about Panthers and JagdPanther... So please provide the adjustment numbers.

EDIT:
Nevermind, just saw the updated change-log now.
I think we are all good, finally :)

We can now close this speed arguments, I guess ^^

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Sukin-kot (SVT) » 05 Aug 2017, 14:48

I dont get the changes regarding Panther's speed, its already hard to dodge allied planes and sniper priests (and generally frustrating feeling when you loose an uber expensive tank like that).

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby MarKr » 05 Aug 2017, 15:10

Guys, before anyone goes nuts with apocaliptic scenarios of how this or that will be ruined by things such as 0.2 speed difference, could you please wait for release, try it out and then give assessment of the situation?
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Aug 2017, 16:11

Sukin-kot (SVT) wrote:I dont get the changes regarding Panther's speed, its already hard to dodge allied planes and sniper priests (and generally frustrating feeling when you loose an uber expensive tank like that).

Yes, I had pretty much similar fears... As I even said this before:
Tiger1996 wrote:I am afraid lowering acceleration would only result in Tigers and Panthers being even easier targets to fast Allied airstrikes though.

However, I am happy how the max speed of the Easy8 was kept as it is after all:
Tiger1996 wrote:and the Easy8 max speed should never really exceed 4.6 at all. Remaining as it is currently, specifically if you would manage to lower the speed of Panthers.

But surely in return they "slightly" increased the acceleration of the E8. Also, they "slightly" reduced the speed of Panthers (A and G) by just 0.2 and the acceleration only by 0.5 so I think the changes are not any significant anyway. Keeping in mind they apparently preferred to stick with the historical accuracy here, as they managed to increase the speed of the Panther.D to 5.0 while lowering its acceleration. So right now it has very high speed but slow turret for sure and bad acceleration...

Though, I must that it's a little weird how Panther A and G have same acceleration as Tigers now...
As I actually had an idea which is about removing the flank speed ability from the Terror doc Tiger (where it makes little sense) then to give it only to the Panther.G of Terror doc in particular (where it makes more sense) while significantly reducing the basic speed of the Panther.G in return. And the Terror doc Tiger could have accurate long shot at vet1 as a result.. but other Tigers are untouched.

Anyway, I would agree with MarKr to stay quiet for now... At least the speed changes seem less disastrous atm.. so let's first see how they affect the overall game-play before judging at all. Let's move on! :)
===============================================
On a different note, is the speed of the M36 B1 really still at 4.8 and not lowered to 4.3 as intended on 4.9.6 patch?

And I can see that PE Grens were just given same Kar98 stats as WH Grens, but WH Grens were also given cheaper LMG42. So are the PE Grens going to have cheaper LMG42 upgrade as well? Shouldn't the LMG42 upgrade price be equal for all squads? Also the SS squad by the HauptOfficer in PE can upgrade LMG42 btw. Or is it intended to be an exclusive price reduction for this upgrade particularly for the WH Grens only?

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby speeddemon02 » 05 Aug 2017, 19:16

to change things, I was curious if the US armor chart was set in stone or was there possible room for change on how it flows? Speicifically that the ammo CP unlock after AWM.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby MarKr » 05 Aug 2017, 19:36

We don't want to make the ammo unlock available sooner, it was placed where it is for a reason.
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mofetagalactica
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 05 Aug 2017, 20:47

MarKr wrote:In a good faith of stopping this neverending talks which won't solve anything in the end, here is something for you:

M4 gets (in the unification process) speed buff from 3.8 to 4.1 (trust me, you won't notice it at all because 0.3 difference is so small that it is pretty much unnoticeable), 76(W) will get speed nerf to 4.1 (from 4.2 - again, you won't notice a thing for same reason as with M4), Croc will get a speed nerf to 4.1 (from 5.2 - again you won't notice anything because you don't use Croc). All of these three get acceleration buff which, again, you will hardly notice. Calli gets speed nerf and E8 keeps its 4.6 speed but get acceleration buff.

In WM Panthers A and G get small speed nerf and acceleration nerf which seems huge but in the game it is not that much noticeable either. PE Panther gets speed buff but acceleration nerf. Jagdpanther was over the top too with its speed and acceleration so adjustments are there too.
For those who always use the "historical accuracy" BS argument - Panther D was early model with stronger engine which accelerated slower but was able to get to faster speeds, models A, G and JP got different engine with speed limiters so they were slower but were able to accelerate faster when compared to "D".

So there you go.



I still prefer if you stay with the original changes instead of this ones, but wathever they dont even try the patch first before crying. Changes to shermans where going to be unnoticable if they stayed with the same aceleration since aceleration its all what it matters afterall.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Lionelus » 05 Aug 2017, 21:09

Hello everybody,

Thanks dev for keeping this mod alive and adding new patch. I've followed the discussions about armor company. Some changes are coming, and it sounds good.

Reworking shermans will certainly make them more attractive, and thus give this doctrine a real 'armored look' (= more shermans on the field)

I'd like to adress a new subject, concerning US armor doctrine. At the moment, this doctrine seems to lack a bit that 'mechanized' and 'motorized' feeling.
Armor company is not specialized in infantry. But it could be specialized in mechanized infantry. So that would be few but fast infantry, thanks to halftracks and transportations. This mechanized infantry could follow shermans battlegroup, and thus making Armor doctrine a punchy and highly mobile army.

If armored tech-tree is still in work, it could be nice to add some kind of features that makes transport vehicules more attractive. Cheaper transportation halftrack, for instance.
In the tech tree, that could be added to the 'ammo reserves' unlock. It would be then ''material reserves", which would give special ammo, and ease access to transport vehicules (lower prices).
It could be earlier too though. For example, it could come with the capping unlock (1 CP) or the fast deployment unlock (1 CP). It would give Armor doctrine another opening, right after motor pool : either go for a support vehicules such as Mortar HT / Quad 50, or go for Transport halftrack and give mobility to your riflemen / rangers squads, still alive from early game.

The idea would be to make Halftrack + infantry squad cost attractive compared to shermans, especially. At the moment, that would be 220 MP / 20 fuel for Halftrack + 270 MP for riflemen, which ends up too expensive and thus not attractive compared to shermans (once cost reduced)

Don't want to be flamed, as it seems this community turned quite aggresive lately. So I'd rather say immediatly this mechanized infantry stuff is just an idea / suggestion.

At the end, it depends on the way armor company is perceived : strictly 'armor', or more generally 'mechanized'.

What do you dev and guys think about this ? is it doable ? would it give Armor doc something new and interesting gameplay wise ?

Best,

L.

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MarKr
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby MarKr » 05 Aug 2017, 21:21

The Motorpool upgrade makes production of all units in it 25% faster and the first Tank Depo upgrade makes Chaffees/Stuarts/M16s/M15A1s and Greyhounds cheaper to produce. Lowering with it the price of transport Halftrack would not be a problem but do you think it would change anything in the game? People don't build infantry in Armor doc because they consider it too weak and useless, not because of the cost of its means of transportation around battlefield.
But maybe that is just me...
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speeddemon02
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby speeddemon02 » 05 Aug 2017, 21:30

would it be acceptable to make the GMC truck from HQ so that all doctrines can upgrade it with the .50 cal? Also possibly sooner as well? By the time it can be armed its already useless.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Lionelus » 05 Aug 2017, 22:53

Thx for you answer Markr

MarKr wrote:but do you think it would change anything in the game?People don't build infantry in Armor doc because they consider it too weak and useless, not because of the cost of its means of transportation around battlefield
But maybe that is just me...


Depends on the players I guess. As far as I'm concerned, I do enjoy using transportation in-game. It gives much map control and mobility, provide protection to your troops.
For example, the CW C15TA Armored Truck, which costs no fuel, is a pure marvel. Works very well with commandos. And it's one of the way I found to make sten commando effective mid game. Paired with a cromwell, that's hell of a punch formation.

As for the weak US infantry issue, that's true. But they are still much needed, to clean up Pak and Shreck ambush, secure building and prevent AT squad to approach.
Morever, If shermans speed is to be increased, foot soldier may not be able to follow up armored battlegroups assaults.
So transportation could help that. And lowering the price could make people use it.

Weak infantry, but at least mobile, and protected from MGs and small arm fires. Thats quite interesting actually for spearhead type assault and flanking

All of these are suggestions. People might or might not start playing that way. But it will surely give more flexibility to the armor doctrine, and give a 'mechanized' style gameplay, with light vehicules, transportation, infantry dropping and tanks.

Best,

L.

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Warhawks97
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 06 Aug 2017, 01:37

With your mechanized inf thing. Just saying that combat engineers would fit well with it.

I tested something in this direction. For example i made the transport halftrack getting cheaper with tank depot upgrade making them as expensive as 180 MP (I didnt consider balance here, just gameplay).
In addition to that i lowered the squad size of combat engineers to 5 men while cost from 300 to 225 or 250. They got available after motorpool was up.

Its pure role was to be used with cheap transport and going with tanks. If jobs had to get done (like blowing roadblocks etc or houses cleaned they could dismount and do their jobs). Their squad size wasnt the important factor but more its abilties in conjunction with armor. Satchels, wire cut and flamethrower and so on.

Thing is something i also miss in this doc. The mechanized part. I was always thinking arround how they could make better use of vehicles since WH vehicles (esspecially 234 series) pretty much denies it. Sure later they get cheaper (greyhound and so on). But who then gets 320 MP stuart when shermans can be build for 300/30 already.

I thought about battlegroup call ins and focusing more on this mobility and mechanized part. But the idea got largely opposed in the forum if you have noticed it.

Right now i was thinking about certain vehicles (stuart, chaffe and Transport halftrack in this case) would become cheaper with faster production upgrade and later with the tank depot upgrade stuart and chaffe a second time?

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby sgtToni95 » 06 Aug 2017, 09:59

Lionelus wrote:For example, the CW C15TA Armored Truck, which costs no fuel, is a pure marvel. Works very well with commandos. And it's one of the way I found to make sten commando effective mid game. Paired with a cromwell, that's hell of a punch formation.


I selected the kangaroo for my CW playstyle, even tho i almost never use it, so i'm interested, how do you use C15 transport? Could you make few situations examples where you made it work good? Reckless rush to try bring inf behind enemy lines? Just as a quick transport where the action is needed?

Thanks in advance :)

P.S: @devs/moderators: might be off topic so maybe move it to other section.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby drivebyhobo » 06 Aug 2017, 11:17

speeddemon02 wrote:would it be acceptable to make the GMC truck from HQ so that all doctrines can upgrade it with the .50 cal? Also possibly sooner as well? By the time it can be armed its already useless.

The 50 cal truck upgrade doesn't seem to be working as intended. If you have a British teammate, it can be purchased at the start but if you don't, it has the much higher requirement of a tank depot. I think it would fit in better if the building requirement was removed and the upgrade price reduced. That way it would be a cheap alternative to building a separate WSC jeep and truck with the downsides of the truck's poor maneuverability and fragility.
Last edited by drivebyhobo on 06 Aug 2017, 20:09, edited 1 time in total.

speeddemon02
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby speeddemon02 » 06 Aug 2017, 16:26

Did not know that about the CW trucks. That was what I was hoping for was the tank depot removed and cost to not be as high.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Redgaarden » 07 Aug 2017, 16:02

As for the weak US infantry issue, that's true. But they are still much needed, to clean up Pak and Shreck ambush, secure building and prevent AT squad to approach.
Morever, If shermans speed is to be increased, foot soldier may not be able to follow up armored battlegroups assaults.
So transportation could help that. And lowering the price could make people use it.


They are not much needed at all. More shermans to tank up the pak fire is all you need. And foot soldiers dont integrated with armour. Either the tank dies and blows up the infantry or the infantry dies. Everything a infantry squad can do a tank can do, just cheaper.
You need to rely on teammates to get infantry since they can get it even cheaper than you can get your tanks. And if you want to kill Pak guns just use engineers with flamethrowers and sherck ambushes are not that dangerous, you can use a sherman for those.
Rifles are not for fighting. They are for building!


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