4.9.9 Patch Preview

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MarKr
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby MarKr » 23 Aug 2017, 21:39

So I said that I don't see how can people have so diverse oppinions on usefulness of unit and your explanation is someone's quote of his specific unit usage...Since I had some beers I might not be getting your exact message behind "simply this". So is it useful or useless? Or are you trying to go full Schrodinger on me and try to convince me it is useful and useless at the same time? :?
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 23 Aug 2017, 22:28

MarKr wrote:So I said that I don't see how can people have so diverse oppinions on usefulness of unit and your explanation is someone's quote of his specific unit usage...Since I had some beers I might not be getting your exact message behind "simply this". So is it useful or useless? Or are you trying to go full Schrodinger on me and try to convince me it is useful and useless at the same time? :?


They only make the cocodrile "for fun" and troll. Nobody playing serious will expend resources in a tank that dies with 2 shoots and strugle to kill enemies inside buildings. Maybe thats why they say "its fine, but this and this..."

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Warhawks97
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 23 Aug 2017, 22:42

mofetagalactica wrote:
They only make the cocodrile "for fun" and troll. Nobody playing serious will expend resources in a tank that dies with 2 shoots and strugle to kill enemies inside buildings. Maybe thats why they say "its fine, but this and this..."


yes.
Its often that sort of trolling. You know its gonna die but well. You either won already, have enough units or simply bad enemies. You rush to spawns (like base at the end) and make the game simply end quicker.

But it doesnt really change anything.

So yes, it can be "usefull" if you consider this usefull. But its not like "hey i get this unit and make something really great to win the match".
At the other hand, idk if it should be anything more.

As i said, killing emplacment crews a bit faster. Sometimes it feels like i have to shoot several seconds on it before doing any damage (and then all die at once).


But to be honest, idk how to improve it or if it should be improved.

It might help dropping the bulldozer. I mean you can burn down the hedgrewos manually anyways but well.... That could make the tank more appealing for certain scenarios.

Also iirc it cant fire a smoke canister.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 23 Aug 2017, 23:40

Regarding surviveability and this "2shots and croc dead". Does upgrading Buldoser also give extra HP to the tank, as it was at vCoh?

And just to make it full question to the players, who feel like unit is nothing.
What do u guys expect it to be?Another FlameChurchill?or another "pantherkind" vehicle with flame?What is the fix for u Mofeta?
It is just a sherman with narrow role. Less likely effective, but only, cause u not always can see it, unlike HE versions with insta splash resulting.

@Warhawks, i will respond to your previous post a bit later, sorry. Cant get all thoughts together, and maybe i will do it, in other thread. Since it will may appear as more offtopic thing, because i feel like, this Crocodile "sudden" uselessness, is more like a thing that is coming from other conceptual question, rather than just a unit and its role in a gameplay.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 24 Aug 2017, 00:31

I think the crocc is like in reality. Its there for very specific purposes. And there arent ways to actually fix it or not unit specific "fixes". It is like it is. It does what it is supposed to do. You build it or not.

Besides that i think there are a lot more other units that are either just like the crocc or even worse, being units that just make the build menu look nicer.

and i think i have less "problems" with the crocc as a specific unit as with the entire concept or shermans in this game. Starting with their armor, weapon efficiency and the "T-34 doctrine" style of shermans/armor doc which in my opinion is just "wrong", is little fun to play and puts generally US engineering and fighting in a pretty bad light.

What didnt work in reality, throwing masses of the same unit against a unit you just cant beat (T-34 early version in suicide commandos against axis tiger and panther) doesnt work really in BK as well. If anyone says the opposite, i can tell you that it was the stretched supply lines, winter and spring, beast killer weapons, land lease and the retreat of many german planes back to germany for reichs defend and the natrual break downs and lack of spare parts/recovery capabilties and massive use of Il-2 planes and arty that defeated the german big cats at the end. In BK we are more or less expected to do what actually cant work really, throwing masses of the same unit types of poor quality (in BK) with bad armor/guns against vastly superior enemie units somehow hopping that in this carnage the enemie unit really dies. Just that we dont have il-2 planes, winter, mud, enemie breakdowns as "tools". Just a pershing (but oonly vs Panther and KT).

Dont get me wrong. I dont want to "replace" shermans. It should be a core unit for any US doctrine. Just working differently.
I´ve been again studying on armor and shermans of ww2 in the past week. And there is stuff at which shermans could actually do very well in BK besides being cheap spam trash.

If its wanted, idk. Maybe the majority likes to spam trash all the time.
but its a flaw in the concept of US in general currently. Its all about spamming. 101st AB in the long term, shermans, Rifle squads. Shermans werent as trashy as many might believe if you get into the real details. It just got turned into it. The M1 Garand was a decent rifle, for common soliders and general infantry combat even the best. In BK its the worst rifle that works at sub machine range only. Combining the worst of semi rifles with the worst of bolt action rifles just even worse.

I think this is what bugs me really. The crocc simply suffers from that faction design flaws.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 24 Aug 2017, 08:08

idliketoplaybetter wrote:Regarding surviveability and this "2shots and croc dead". Does upgrading Buldoser also give extra HP to the tank, as it was at vCoh?

And just to make it full question to the players, who feel like unit is nothing.
What do u guys expect it to be?Another FlameChurchill?or another "pantherkind" vehicle with flame?What is the fix for u Mofeta?
It is just a sherman with narrow role. Less likely effective, but only, cause u not always can see it, unlike HE versions with insta splash resulting.


I was honestly expecting something like croc from men of war the first time i saw it, and since i saw his cost wich was more than the normal m3 my expectations went higher.

So for me the fix or a little help would be having the 75mm cannon functional without HE and without top MG. So it can actually has a minimun defense againts halftracks and a good offensive againts infantry once you get close, that way it will be one of the only shermans that u can actually see them going in front of your units, having a more usefull offensive role, the price will remain the same.

And i dont think that peopple will stop using the other variant of the M3 with HE just because of a croc getting a functional 75mm (Without HE/TOP mg , since you will still have to get close to kill the inf because of flametrower having less range and no 50.cal suppression.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 24 Aug 2017, 09:31

Well, as was claimed there above, making cannon work WITH flame is out of options, unless they get modelers ( even if they consider re-balancing possible with such a multi-role unit).

Aside of that, using Crocodile at MenOfWar is preety much like it is in Coh, no?But maybe more obviously shown a need of proper support for a tank of this function.
Im still thinking, that ok, maybe shifting it ONLY to armor is not a best thing, but giving it ability to upgrade itself to a somewhat more sturdy and "close combat" thing early would solve some frustration. My only point of shifting it there, was a fact, that you can overrepair it, and that might do a trick also.

Rest (dealing with Halftracks and well placed AT's) must be a job for infantry (that would actually be a topic for my other thread i was talking there before), As Sherman is Support tank. Most of people are used to what exactly? Picking those AT"s with well made HE from a long range and that is it. Fact u cant do that with Croc in a way, that is obviously "so-easy" is causing this imo.

*And i actually like how Warhawks see this issue now, it is very like i feel about all this talks, but i would aproach it from an other direction. It's just a fun hobby reading thing for dev's anyway :D
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 24 Aug 2017, 10:32

You guys should combine units m4 and croc get the Job done. use m4 suppress ability and get into the trouble with the croc jeez... We can Keep it simple Baby let's not make it complicated Big maps are so overrated Let's not make it complicated, Rules are meant for breaking,baby Let's not make it complicated Why we just don't get naked Baby . Let's not make it complicated.
Last edited by Panzer-Lehr-Division on 24 Aug 2017, 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 24 Aug 2017, 11:22

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
Aside of that, using Crocodile at MenOfWar is preety much like it is in Coh, no?But maybe more obviously shown a need of proper support for a tank of this function.


Crocodile from MOW has 2 cannons in the turret one to shoot his 75mm and other as a flamethrower, so you can check the model there and how it works.

Dont get scared about talking and giving ideas on how to improve units without breaking balance so we can see them more in-game.

By the way stop talking nonsense because it is possible to put a flamethrower as replacement for the mg hull, just as they used in the west front, just as we see now with churchil coc.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 24 Aug 2017, 11:24

As i just wrote. try it better
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 24 Aug 2017, 11:43

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:You guys should combine units m4 and croc get the Job done. use m4 suppress ability and get into the trouble with the croc jeez... We can Keep it simple Baby let's not make it complicated Big maps are so overrated Let's not make it complicated, Rules are meant for breaking,baby Let's not make it complicated Why we just don't get naked Baby . Let's not make it complicated.


Ok then, that would be 825MP and 100Fuel, But hey why would you even expend so much on that if you only needed the M4 with HE if you wanted to get rid of infantry or enemy in buildings.

Please try to think a little before talking, devs already gived some attention to make units more appealing to make like for expample in this patch with the panzer J and H by reducing the price of the J.

So, why it should be bad to talk about improving a unit someway without breaking balance to make that unit more appealing to buy?

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 24 Aug 2017, 12:01

mofetagalactica wrote:
Crocodile from MOW has 2 cannons in the turret one to shoot his 75mm and other as a flamethrower, so you can check the model there and how it works.

Here, as u might not seen it or ignored.

MarKr wrote:I tried to see if it is even technically possible to turn the hull MG into a flamethrower and it is not possible without model editing which is something I don't know crap about.


And i said this, not refering to MenofWar mechanics, but gameplay aspect. "Aside of that" stands there for reasons.

idliketoplaybetter wrote: Aside of that, using Crocodile at MenOfWar is preety much like it is in Coh



@Dont get scared about talking and giving ideas on how to improve units without breaking balance so we can see them more in-game.

Cool, that's why i asked you about what are your thoughts on this, after technical limitations appeared.

@@By the way stop talking nonsense..

Very good aproach there.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Panzer-Lehr-Division » 24 Aug 2017, 14:26

mofetagalactica wrote:
Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:You guys should combine units m4 and croc get the Job done. use m4 suppress ability and get into the trouble with the croc jeez... We can Keep it simple Baby let's not make it complicated Big maps are so overrated Let's not make it complicated, Rules are meant for breaking,baby Let's not make it complicated Why we just don't get naked Baby . Let's not make it complicated.


Ok then, that would be 825MP and 100Fuel, But hey why would you even expend so much on that if you only needed the M4 with HE if you wanted to get rid of infantry or enemy in buildings.

Please try to think a little before talking, devs already gived some attention to make units more appealing to make like for expample in this patch with the panzer J and H by reducing the price of the J.

So, why it should be bad to talk about improving a unit someway without breaking balance to make that unit more appealing to buy?


You Need also think what's the best way for the attack and not rush just forward
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 24 Aug 2017, 16:40

I want to add that the first m4 croc didn't had gun barrel, so thats why the croc can't have a gun.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Redgaarden » 24 Aug 2017, 20:32

Have any of you actually used the unit? it feels like it's a rapid firing high explosive shells at a shorter distance than normal. And stop with the bullshit that it needs support against enemy infantry, I mean suppress infantry with another tank?!?! If that infantry isn't running away like pigs with their tails between their legs then they're going to get roasted. And by then, suppression isn't really needed.

So for me the fix or a little help would be having the 75mm cannon functional without HE and without top MG. So it can actually has a minimun defense againts halftracks and a good offensive againts infantry once you get close, that way it will be one of the only shermans that u can actually see them going in front of your units, having a more usefull offensive role, the price will remain the same.


I think you could make the flamethrower more effective vs vehicles? I wouldn't really expect anything surviving getting doused by such flame. And maybe make the croc work vs king tiger? Dont know if it was intended that king tiger is immune to flame engine crit.
What I meant to say was, jsut make the croc flamethrower kill halftracks in 1-2 hits, now it can defend itself.

Regarding surviveability and this "2shots and croc dead". Does upgrading Buldoser also give extra HP to the tank, as it was at vCoh?


Corc gets affected by both bulldozer and sandbags which both give a 1.1 modifier so
1.1 x 1.1 = 1.21
Corc Health is = 636
636 x 1.21 = 769,56 Hp which is higher than even Jumbo's and churchill's which has 750 but no modifer whatsoever.

So to answer your question. It will always die to 2 shots, but bulldozers help then survive higher caliber weapons such as king tigers that do about 675-825 dmg (843-1031 with ap ammo) And it might make you survive the 2nd shreck hit which makes it good even against panzer jeagers.

Aside of that, using Crocodile at MenOfWar is preety much like it is in Coh, no?


No. In competetive MOWAS the croc is regarded as an cheap sherman to deal with pz4 and other vehicles, or as an early shock unit. The flamethower is just a nice bonus, almost no one gets it because of the flamethower.

Edit: Please delete the post above and not this one.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 24 Aug 2017, 20:50

What i meant, by the similarity between Coh/MoW, was that, there and there Shermans die/live preety much the same.
Same few shots.
In that context that felt more correct, but im lazy to track it up and quote everything :D
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby drivebyhobo » 24 Aug 2017, 21:05

Warhawks97 wrote:The M1 Garand was a decent rifle, for common soliders and general infantry combat even the best. In BK its the worst rifle that works at sub machine range only. Combining the worst of semi rifles with the worst of bolt action rifles just even worse.

I know this is a touchy issue, but I always found it deeply ironic that the Garand at one point (maybe it still does) in BK mod had the same long range accuracy as the Wehr Officer's luger and various SMGs. The same rifle design that with moderate refinements (the M14,M21) is retained as the rifle of the designated marksman in modern fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Gameplay over strict realism sure, but its historical feel as a good all rounder isn't being captured when US players all run away from the garand as fast as possible

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 24 Aug 2017, 22:42

idliketoplaybetter wrote:What i meant, by the similarity between Coh/MoW, was that, there and there Shermans die/live preety much the same.
Same few shots.
In that context that felt more correct, but im lazy to track it up and quote everything :D


Sherman armor its stronger in MoW it can resist 50 mm and other pzIV with ease, play the game first before talking please.

Example:

https://youtu.be/-pl3KY8g6TM


@drivehobo @warhawks

Regarding the garand being one of the best main weapons of the WWII, in bk it lacks damage and ROF at medium and close distances, with the kar still overperforming againts them at medium/close distances. So the Kar should be buffed more at max distances while garand being better at medium/close.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 25 Aug 2017, 07:07

mofetagalactica wrote: Sherman armor its stronger in MoW it can resist 50 mm and other pzIV with ease, play the game first before talking please.



I wouldnt say it's armor there is stronger. Battle scene looks different. Angling of armor. Less RNG in penetration/dmg dealing.


I was talking about Unit role, and chances to survive in close engagemt, that are even lower at MoW than at Bkmod.
Mechanical aspect of the gun/flame, its effectivness/range is irrelevant from MoW again, considering how different those games are.
And that is what shown in this "example".
I played the game not on competetive level though. But i remember it to be even more frustrating by many reasons.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 25 Aug 2017, 09:39

idliketoplaybetter wrote:
mofetagalactica wrote: Sherman armor its stronger in MoW it can resist 50 mm and other pzIV with ease, play the game first before talking please.



I wouldnt say it's armor there is stronger. Battle scene looks different. Angling of armor. Less RNG in penetration/dmg dealing.



Stronger compared to bk. But its mostly because he was getting shoot in the front where sherman has really good armor, some shoots in the back that also rebound because of angle.

The good about MoW its that every tank can kill another one. You can even destroy a tiger with a light tank, if you get really really close, something you can't see here sadly not even if you get to 1cm of distance and shoot it in the back ( wich is possible to make ).

Anyway i would like to see more comments about the sherman croc, being able to use his cannon as they actually where able to use in the west front.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby idliketoplaybetter » 25 Aug 2017, 10:45

Im not going to requote it again :D

But, armor-angling-penetration system is very different. Example's of how good that or other unit being used at MoW aside of it's gameplay role - irrelevant. Preety much same Sherman, but feels different, because game is different. Range of fire is messing it.

I'm not even saying your wrong, but i just see no reason why u put it the way u put it.

Even if Croc of that type has ever taken a part at Western Front, Markr already explained why it is hardly to be implemented.
And that is why this conversation went for Armor/Surviveability aspect of the Unit, instead of its Attack capacity (gun talk).
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Warhawks97 » 25 Aug 2017, 12:57

mofetagalactica wrote:

@drivehobo @warhawks

Regarding the garand being one of the best main weapons of the WWII, in bk it lacks damage and ROF at medium and close distances, with the kar still overperforming againts them at medium/close distances. So the Kar should be buffed more at max distances while garand being better at medium/close.


Catch me in steam. I think you are not aware of many things.

1. Range classification: Mid range ends at 25. Weapons have 60 range. 25 is the range axis throw nades. From 0-15 range the M1 is better than K98. From 15-25 M1 has maybe a slight edge. Rof wise. But from 25 to 60 the M1 has much worse accuracy and slightly worse rof. To make things worse. Grens k98 is clearly better than those of volksgrens with much better accuracy. The M1 From rangers is actually the same to M1 from rifle squads.

So your "mid range buff" is actually, due to range classification (from 25 onwards to 60), long range already. Axis grenade range is the egde of "mid range".

The K98 is already highly accurate. The WH grens accuracy is more than tiwce that of rangers and is still shooting faster than rangers. Idk what you want to buff here actually.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby mofetagalactica » 25 Aug 2017, 16:36

Warhawks97 wrote:
Catch me in steam. I think you are not aware of many things.

1. Range classification: Mid range ends at 25. Weapons have 60 range. 25 is the range axis throw nades. From 0-15 range the M1 is better than K98. From 15-25 M1 has maybe a slight edge. Rof wise. But from 25 to 60 the M1 has much worse accuracy and slightly worse rof. To make things worse. Grens k98 is clearly better than those of volksgrens with much better accuracy. The M1 From rangers is actually the same to M1 from rifle squads.

So your "mid range buff" is actually, due to range classification (from 25 onwards to 60), long range already. Axis grenade range is the egde of "mid range".

The K98 is already highly accurate. The WH grens accuracy is more than tiwce that of rangers and is still shooting faster than rangers. Idk what you want to buff here actually.


I didnt know about the range classification since in my eyes i have other perspective of what looks like close-mid-far ranges. I thought something like max range or a number close to that being the far range, and medium distances being like 35/60.

Its kinda weird how they divided close,medium,far distances in numbers when you have a pool of 60 being max range.

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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby Redgaarden » 25 Aug 2017, 19:47

The good about MoW its that every tank can kill another one. You can even destroy a tiger with a light tank, if you get really really close, something you can't see here sadly not even if you get to 1cm of distance and shoot it in the back ( wich is possible to make ).


You can literally be inside the tank and still not pen.
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Re: 4.9.9 Patch Preview

Postby jonnyyankee » 28 Aug 2017, 14:32

Another problem is that the tanks allied to touch the fire the gunners die without being attacked by a flamethrower


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