4.9.9 Patch Preview

Redgaarden · Post by **Redgaarden** » 26 Jul 2017, 13:51

- Demolition charges should now destroy any building next to which you plant the charge in one explosion (applies to US Engineers, WM Pios, Storm demo squad, CW Sappers(+RE sappers), Commandos, Sturm pios, Luft Pios)

Could you replace US Airborne Engineer's demo ability since that one can't even be planted on the ground. Or is it some kind of special demo charge?

Post by **MarKr** » 26 Jul 2017, 13:59

@Warhawks: Yes, the ammo upgrades will apply for new units for sure but we want to keep them strictly to Shermans. It already poses significant ammo savings (25 ammo for AP upgrade, 25 ammo for HE upgrade for 76(W) and E8 and 90 ammo for HE for M4). If you want to get AP ammo on other vehicles, you need to buy it.
Global repair stays where it is. It heals vehicles for "15" which is faster than Repair Pios (10) or normal engineers (5-ish? iirc) and it heals them all at once. They need to be out of combat - this stays because in-combat healing would be OP. So you only need to retreat a bit back (not really all the way back to base; BK is meant for big maps) and you get repaired all vehicles at the same time. Now the duration is increased to 30 seconds so it should be able to repair 450HP per vehicle for one use which should be enough to fully repair lighter vehicles and repair 3/4 of max HP of Shermans which should be good.
@Sherman speeds: Panthers could actually keep kiting Shermans and Shermans could not reach them, this should make flanking easier but TDs are still faster and have flank speed so they will keep their advantage.
@Jumbo, 105 and other untis: They stay both in Infantry doc, combat engineers too. SP remains as reward unit in Armor doc.
@PIV J cost: All I hear is "it cannot be this low on cost". Why it cannot be? Because it would be "weird"? Can you give me some gameplay or balance reason?
@Redgaarden: Yes, I forgot about them, they will get the change too.

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 26 Jul 2017, 15:33

MarKr wrote:@PIV J cost: All I hear is "it cannot be this low on cost". Why it cannot be? Because it would be "weird"? Can you give me some gameplay or balance reason?

What we said is why you changed it in the first place. Given the fact that literally no one ever complained about it... However, even though I still believe that it's absolutely nonsense to see such a change.. as I believe that it's definitely weird and makes little sense. Yet, after looking at all these Armor doc changes.. then well, I guess I am fine with this change after all. So never-mind. But just make sure the descriptions are accurate enough... The improved production unlock description has to include that the IVJ would be eventually unlocked being mass produced by default. And the mass production unlock description has to include that the IVJ will be mass produced further once again! Just to keep everything on the straight line.

MarKr wrote:@Sherman speeds: Panthers could actually keep kiting Shermans and Shermans could not reach them, this should make flanking easier but TDs are still faster and have flank speed so they will keep their advantage.

I have been thinking more deeply about this change now... And wait a second, I am actually wondering, did u just increase the speed of the HE Sherman to be equal to Panthers?? Oh damn.. the HE Sherman is already too powerful against inf, now it's going to be rather impossible to hunt them with inf at all.
And how about the speed of Pz IVs on the other hand?? Are they greatly slower than Shermans now?!
Also, as Hawks said the Easy8 is now faster than the Panther... I wonder why.

And for example if we compare Tiger1 with Panther now, Tiger has flank speed.. and generally better abilities and earlier available as well as more HP. I am afraid that right now we will need to start an entire new topic about vehicle speeds.

Panzer-Lehr-Division · Post by **Panzer-Lehr-Division** » 26 Jul 2017, 15:45

Also i wann mention what's with the mortar bunker from se and it's critical damage bug toni once reported markr? You wrote you Do it on your checklist, it sometimes die to 1 demolition while it has 700 hp? or more and normal bunker to 2- 3 Demo charges.

speeddemon02 · Post by **speeddemon02** » 26 Jul 2017, 16:42

Regarding the new armor tree why does one have to go through allied war machine to get the supply unlock? Could they be switched so it is sooner like connected to field repairs? For me I would hate to have to spend CP on AWM to save on munitions. I know its cost is going to be reduced, but still would rather have the option of one or the other like in TH over going through it.

I reread what I wrote and it could work that way, but not was I was originally thinking. Could it be so that both AWM and ammo reserves are connected to field repairs by switching ammo reserves with raid?

Post by **MarKr** » 26 Jul 2017, 17:23

Tiger1996 wrote:I have been thinking more deeply about this change now... And wait a second, I am actually wondering, did u just increase the speed of the HE Sherman to be equal to Panthers?? Oh damn.. the HE Sherman is already too powerful against inf, now it's going to be rather impossible to hunt them with inf at all.
And how about the speed of Pz IVs on the other hand?? Are they greatly slower than Shermans now?!
Also, as Hawks said the Easy8 is now faster than the Panther... I wonder why.

Ehm...do you realize that M4s in HE mode are anti-infantry unit, right? Going against them with infantry is sort of like going with Sherman vs JPIV and complaining that Sherman has little chance there...

Tiger1996 wrote:And for example if we compare Tiger1 with Panther now, Tiger has flank speed.. and generally better abilities and earlier available as well as more HP. I am afraid that right now we will need to start an entire new topic about vehicle speeds.

I'm affraid we will not need to. Or at least I don't know why we would need to do it. Just because Shermans (one of the crappiest armored and armed medium tanks in the game) get speed adjustment we NEED to talk about overhauling speeds of units in general? What is the point? Tiger can one-shot Shermans. The intended strategy in Sherman-centered tactics is to go at least 2v1 and flank from sides/rear. How do you want to do that, if Shermans are slower than dirt and the heavy tanks can just keep reversing and outrun the Shermans? Since you mention PIVs - they have better armor and guns (at max range the 75mm L48 has about 75-ish% chance to penetrate sherman while Sherman at the same range has little under 50% chance to penetrate PIV) so in 1v1 situation PIV can go head-on-head against Sherman and favors are on PIV's side, since Sherman has crappier weapon it should try to flank and hit rear where it has better chance but it is also more dangerous approach than the "head-on-head" that PIV can use.

I am not saying that the speeds will be totally fine, but could you please at least wait until you play a few games with the patch and only then start with your appocalyptic predictions?

EDIT:

Tiger1996 wrote:What we said is why you changed it in the first place. Given the fact that literally no one ever complained about it...

Kronoz and I already told you:

MarKr wrote:At current prices what sense does it make to build in BK doc PIV J? (price comparisons etc. followed)

and

Kr0noZ wrote:Well, but the idea was to have the J be cheaper than the H even after both get the cost reduction;
So the 380MP 30F for the J is intended.

Otherwise, the cost difference between the cheapo Auf. H and the J is too small to make the J attractive due to it's worse performance (mainly turrent rotation being much slower). People will always just build the H if the price stays that way.

And ofcourse nobody complained about it - how many people have complained about uselesness of Flakpanzer 38(t)? Nobody. Why? Is it good as it is? Hardly. Nobody complained because in Def doc are alternative units which might be a bit more expensive but can do the same job but better...does this remind you any similar situation? Maybe the situation of PIV H and J in BK doc?

The reason nobody complained is the same here - why complain about unit when you have slightly more expensive but overall better alternative available. The point was to drop the price to such a level that it would be worth building it over H.
So as I said before I edited this post - let's see how it plays out and panic later

Post by **kwok** » 26 Jul 2017, 17:46

Sorry, I do want to comment on vehicle speeds because it was something I noticed as important in CoH2, other mods, and my mod (and not for reasons Tiger mentioned).

I want to just caution making vehicle speeds to fast in general. Relative speeds to each other, I like the decisions made because it will get towards that desired gameplay level that you described Markr. One thing to keep in mind is relative speeds to other non-armor units. CoH2 is seen as very cartoonish and i think some of it comes from vehicle speeds. What's funny is that mods like Spearhead and Wikingr amplified those feelings when they added "realistic damage values". Clown cars and hit-and-run tanks became a thing, rewarding micro over strategy. Even the panther right now in BK has this very slight "clown car" feel to it (prob cuz it has this mega mg that warhawks loves to talk about how he fixed in his mod. really interesting conceptually what he did)... bumping the shermans to that speed makes sense for sherman-to-panther engagements but tank-to-other unit engagements I think will start to look a bit cartoony. Inf shouldn't be able to kill HE shermans, but the other extreme case is shermans shouldn't be able to hit-and-run AT guns frontally (over repair to soak one shot, hit, and then scurry back like the dirty panthe- i mean sherman it is).

Ironically what players found MORE enjoyable were slower tank speeds which not only allowed for more unit-type variety... it also gave armor a psychological perceived feeling of power (people like to think that powerful large things move slowly). Wikingr I think only recently made that change. I had slower tanks in my mod and people found them good. Haha... hilariously, I gave a taste of "realistic historical values" for some people to test and the complaints made were HILARIOUSLY satisfying... fast engines but slow turret rotation does not make for a fun game. So something to consider I think is not to speed up shermans but slow down panthers.

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 26 Jul 2017, 19:05

MarKr wrote:Ehm...do you realize that M4s in HE mode are anti-infantry unit, right? Going against them with infantry is sort of like going with Sherman vs JPIV and complaining that Sherman has little chance there...

Thing is, the Sherman is already hard to destroy using infantry.. even with slow speed... Now the Shermans will be able to effectively hit inf and also quickly run away. Why is that? As I might have to agree to this particular statement by Kwok:

Kwok wrote:Inf shouldn't be able to kill HE shermans, but the other extreme case is shermans shouldn't be able to hit-and-run AT guns frontally (over repair to soak one shot, hit, and then scurry back like the dirty panthe- i mean sherman it is).

Also keep in mind that handheld AT weapons already received 2s aim time.

MarKr wrote:I'm affraid we will not need to. Or at least I don't know why we would need to do it. Just because Shermans (one of the crappiest armored and armed medium tanks in the game) get speed adjustment we NEED to talk about overhauling speeds of units in general? What is the point? Tiger can one-shot Shermans. The intended strategy in Sherman-centered tactics is to go at least 2v1 and flank from sides/rear. How do you want to do that, if Shermans are slower than dirt and the heavy tanks can just keep reversing and outrun the Shermans? Since you mention PIVs - they have better armor and guns (at max range the 75mm L48 has about 75-ish% chance to penetrate sherman while Sherman at the same range has little under 50% chance to penetrate PIV) so in 1v1 situation PIV can go head-on-head against Sherman and favors are on PIV's side, since Sherman has crappier weapon it should try to flank and hit rear where it has better chance but it is also more dangerous approach than the "head-on-head" that PIV can use.

I am not saying that the speeds will be totally fine, but could you please at least wait until you play a few games with the patch and only then start with your appocalyptic predictions?

There is no reason to increase the speed of the Easy8 that much, with sandbag upgrades and over-repair.. killing the Easy8 isn't too easy. And now they can also escape rather quickly... Shermans were never slower than dirt, and now we definitely need to talk about other vehicle speeds in order to keep it balanced. You always have to compare everything and estimate it very well before applying changes. There is no point to have a big strong cannon when you are too slow and unable to catch anything!

Kwok wrote:fast engines but slow turret rotation does not make for a fun game. So something to consider I think is not to speed up shermans but slow down panthers.

This, I also have to agree... I had this idea in mind too. Panther's speed could be significantly reduced.. and then the flank speed could be probably moved from the Tiger1 where it makes little sense to the Panther where it makes more sense, still at vet 1.

Redgaarden · Post by **Redgaarden** » 26 Jul 2017, 19:36

I want to just caution making vehicle speeds to fast in general. Relative speeds to each other, I like the decisions made because it will get towards that desired gameplay level that you described Markr. One thing to keep in mind is relative speeds to other non-armor units. CoH2 is seen as very cartoonish and i think some of it comes from vehicle speeds.

I have always seen tanks as fast vehicles that charge through enemy lines and smashes it fom the rear so fast tanks seems perfectly historical for me. And also I think the reason CoH 2 seems so cartoonish is because all the units are unique in their own way e.g Conscripts are the most tanky unit in the game and deal little to no dmg at almost all ranges compared to obersoldaten that deal twice the dmg with twice the accuaracy and a lmg that can be used like an smg.

Post by **MarKr** » 26 Jul 2017, 19:43

Look, Sherman speeds were inconsistent as hell (M4: 3.8; Croc: 5.2; 76(W): 4.2; E8: 4.6; Calliope: 4.2) - have you ever complained about the speed of Crocodile? It was faster than M4 will be now, and killing infantry also rather effecivelly. Anyway, M4 the slowest, Croc the fasters, 76(W) faster than M4 but slower than Panther E8 as fast as panther. So M4 unable to keep up with 76(W), absolutely slow as dirt compared to E8 so keeping some consistent formation while moving was impossible and only added to micro intensity. 76(W) could actually never catch reversing Panther. E8 could not outrun panther, only "keep up with it" (so you would never get to flank postition as long as Panther kept reversing) + due to its speed it would break off from formation, leaving rest of the tanks too much behind and making itself easier target.
So I insist on some speed unification for Shermans M4, 76(W), Calliope and Croc, to have some consistency and making it possible to keep some formation during attack. E8 needs to be faster, since it was one of its advantages over normal 76(W).
If you think that unifying the speeds to 4.2 and keeping E8 at 4.6 while slowing down Panther to somewhere around 4.2, then fine. But since the mobility of Panthers is one of their advantages I expect tons of crying from Panther-users...you know the usual stuff "Panther us now useless, you fucked it etc."

Warhawks97 · Post by **Warhawks97** » 26 Jul 2017, 19:58

With that speed thing i think Kwok made a good point with that cartoon thing.To unify them makes sense for sure.

But we could start a debate about armor in general again at this point.

Is it hilarous that tank go forth and back like a ferrari? Yes. And that might gonna happen.
At the same time is it hilarious to run towards a tank while it shoots with two MG´s on the inf? Yes, it also is.

So that tank can quickly rush backwards sounds in so far very reasonable as there are situations (more often than not) rush towards armor (groups) and those must run back. Yes, single HE shots etc got changed, hendheld AT got changed but still.

So what is more cartoonish? The fact that on most armor MG´s are unless its an holly top mount MG42?

I think in both ways can be improvments without making things too OP or too cartoonish?
Another funny thing about BK is how cheap most "armor" is. There is no real need to get light armor or slow light vehicles coz tanks do always better.
And here comes another problem. Since many MBT (main battle tank) like tank IV or shermans are cheap as fuck (cheaper in some cases as light armor eg stuart) units like cheap designed stugs cant get cheaper because they would become as cheap as an armored jeep actually.

And here we get to the next point. Who will build or use stugs when the Tank IV J is just as cheap? Sure... 3 CP´s.... but for the H you also dont consider the two additional CP. So you want that there is a reason to use the J? Give me one to use stugs in future.

Balance wise on the J change. Yes.... i have balance concerns.

1. The J can be backed by early arty
2. Comes before US get any advantages of supply yard and cheaper upkeep
3. The best anti tank gun US has will at best have 54% chance to pen from distance.
4. It shreds any inf at this time extremly good (few basic rifles and AT squad maybe)

So yes. In recent games i could field two Tank IV H/J quite early and fast like in old days actually. And backed that also with Maultier.

And such a tank for 380 MP and 30 or 35 fuel?

Generally as an advice for the future. Think about the role of armor in this game. I would say more expensive at least many of those "vehicle Tanks" refering to their cost. More forward orientated, less cartoonish forth and backwards thing. And better in offenive in conjuction with inf. Thats another prob in my opinion. because that back and forth whenever average inf unit with AT occures makes it very micro intense when used with inf as those is usually a lot more forward orientated.

Once again my offer i made in whatsapp already. I could use some people for some testing. At best in a more or less "pvp scenario". Sadly i havent got enough at once to make it happen.

about the vehicle prod speed line towards upgraded rounds. I would also love to see more flexibility at this point. And i dont see why only shermans should benefit from that. I am esspecially looking towards units like stuart or chaffe.

Edit: Have you checked the firefly? Its at 4.2 atm.

maybe we can find a solution somewhere in the middle? 4.4 for shermans and 4.8 for e8? The Panther at 4.5 or also 4.4?

Edit II: Tank IV H is listed with a speed of 3.8 in game (in reality listed with 38 on road) The Ostwind somehow has a speed of 5 and wirbelwind with 4 in game.

Edit: The speed listed in game. Is that off road or on road?

Post by **MarKr** » 26 Jul 2017, 20:09

Warhawks97 wrote:Is it hilarous that tank go forth and back like a ferrari? Yes. And that might gonna happen.
At the same time is it hilarious to run towards a tank while it shoots with two MG´s on the inf? Yes, it also is.
.....
So what is more cartoonish? The fact that on most armor MG´s are unless its an holly top mount MG42?
....
I think in both ways can be improvments without making things too OP or too cartoonish?

Hull and coaxial MGs stay as they are. Wolf wants them that way. No need to push that agenda here any further.

Warhawks97 wrote:So you want that there is a reason to use the J? Give me one to use stugs in future

StuG IV can go iirc into "hulldown" mode which gives defensive bonuses which is not much useful in general since it has no turret but can be used in certain situations to hold choke points. StuG III has badass abilities - smoke drop + awesome assault buffs for Storms or Grens around. I would build it any day.

drivebyhobo wrote:That doesn't include the US campaign does it? The US campaign works mostly fine with a few exceptions.

Yes, the US campaign stays

drivebyhobo · Post by **drivebyhobo** » 26 Jul 2017, 20:09

Tiger1996 wrote:Thing is, the Sherman is already hard to destroy using infantry.. even with slow speed... Now the Shermans will be able to effectively hit inf and also.

The Shermans speed changes range from 12% slower to 20% faster at the very best. That isn't going to fundamentally change anything except to unify the speeds.

MarKr wrote:General:
- Non-working campaigns removed from the main menu

That doesn't include the US campaign does it? The US campaign works mostly fine with a few exceptions.

Jalis · Post by **Jalis** » 26 Jul 2017, 21:06

@warhawk ; speed ingame you find with corsix are top speed on road of course.

Historically, if it can help, one of shermans s main problem was it is a tank with high structure. That made it more visible and also a kind target.
Reason for this high structure was the Sherman was designed to recieve various engines including massive radial engine first designed for planes.

Really shermans engine were gasoline or diesel, radial, 8 cylinders, made by continental, chrisler, ford, general motors ect ... you had even Sherman propelled by several linked engine (diesel iirc).

If you want you can find on YouTube visual info about early Sherman typical radial engine the continental R975. Top sustainable speed on road vary from a Sherman to an other from 32 km/h (the firefly for exemple) to 42 km/h. Some were able to reach 48 km/h for short rush. Usually older Sherman are slower. If historical accuracy was a goal over playability at bk, all Sherman M4 including 105 and croco, would have a 3.4 speed (34 km/h) m4a3 42 km and 35 km/h for jumbo.

slightly off topic ; lot of british tanks are overated ; firefly speed, achilles turret traverse, that was manual like the M10, Comet overated armour and gun (comet gun was not a 17 pdr)

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 27 Jul 2017, 01:55

- Lowered the cost of LMG42 upgrade to 85 ammo (from 100) *update

What about Assault PzGrenadiers and SS squad from Haupt Officer btw?!
LMG42 upgrade price should be also reduced the same way to 85 ammo accordingly.
=================================================
Now back to our subject... Vehicle speeds.

I just checked the speeds on Crosix by myself now. Never felt the need to look up Crosix myself since a VERY long time.. but seeing what happens here, I then decided that I get back to it once again. Here are the values regarding speeds, just so everybody would have a full picture of what's actually happening... But first, it's worth to mention that everybody should know Bk Mod received realistic vehicle speeds around version 4.0 back then when Xalibur was still there. So, when some tank in Crosix has a speed of whatever value (or as an example 3.5) then it means that it's actually 35 km/h which is in fact the historical speed for this particular vehicle. The speed_max value is the maximum speed of the vehicle on free roads. But keep in mind that there is also acceleration, and it's the value of which a vehicle would gradually start to gain more speed from the zero point once it begins moving. All this will be listed down as follows, check the spoiler box:

Spoiler: show

Some mistakes might occur, corrections are welcome though.

Conclusions:
- After looking up these information... Then I have to say that I am strictly against the speed changes of Shermans on the change-log. Reasons vary, but obviously.. all the Sherman speeds are set to be historically accurate at the moment. Maybe except the Canadian 76 Shermans from RE doc. They should have max speed of 4.2 like the Beute 76 Sherman and the 76W Sherman... Not to mention that these changes would make all Shermans way much faster than IVH or IVJ on the other hand.
Which is bad for gameplay and balance, and also not realistic or historical.

- Sherman Easy8 does not have to be faster than the Panther anyhow.. neither should it be a competitor to the Panther in the first place. Armor doc has Jacksons and Pershing to fulfill this task! Sherman Easy8 speed must return back to 4.6 as it was. And 4.6 is already faster than 4.2 which is the speed of regular 76W Shermans... And the Crocodie Sherman can stay at a speed of 5.2 btw.

- Also, on the 4.9.6 patch... MarKr told us that the speed of the M36 B1 Jackson is reduced to 4.3 but apparently it's still 4.8 :?:

Or am I wrong maybe?

- Speed of Panther tank is same with JagdPanther, and both must be always alike.. just a note.

- 95mm Cromwell shouldn't have flank speed ability, it's an arty unit... And that's the same reason why the Sherman 105 speed can't be changed from currently 3.8 to 4.6 on the other hand.. not to mention the historical accuracy.

That's all for now, but I have to say it short and clear... I completely oppose any changes to the Sherman speeds. These speed changes are totally bullshit.

Post by **Panzerblitz1** » 27 Jul 2017, 02:09

what is bullshit is your so called "historical" values, they weren't historical, now they are, so please don't teach us how to read datas, again, to refresh a bit your memory.

Sherman speed (all Shermans) in real topping 48/50km MAX per hour when the speed max in Bk is = 3.8, what it mean? it means first no sherman can flank any Panthers in reverse, not possible, when you count that you need at least 4/5 shermans to take out a panther, yes even if they are more cheaper, you start to think about it, and still m4 are shewed like nothing versus panthers so it is not a big deal or a game braker, 76mm has been tested as well its a bit better but 4 out of 5 can't stand against Panthers.

If those values are being changed its for a reason, we made tons of test and we always coming back to that Sherman speed who is way too low in game, and it might be the main cause why Shermans aren't that sexy in armor doc... will see.

Sherman speed isn't bullshit as you said, and its happening, like it or not, it will be in the next patch.

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 27 Jul 2017, 02:17

And now you are triggered for some reason I see... No, these are historical values.. it was even in one of your YouTube videos about the release of BK Mod version 4.0 back then when Xalibur was still there. When you indicated "now all vehicles have historical speeds" yourself on the video. And the vehicle speeds hasn't changed since then, ever.

3.8 is 38km/h which is historically the actual top speed of M4 Shermans with 75mm guns. And 4.2 is 42 km/h which is the speed of 76W Shermans with longer 76mm guns, this is perfectly accurate.

Shermans don't have to compete with Panthers, they are there to fight against Pz IVs and not Panthers. Against Panthers the Armor doc player has Jacksons and Pershing... And don't just tell me "they will be implemented regardless if u like it or not" because it's not an objective argument.

Post by **Panzerblitz1** » 27 Jul 2017, 02:20

No 38km/h isn't accurate at all! and even, Panzer IV has better armor in game and better range guns.

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 27 Jul 2017, 02:22

Man, where is the logic if you tell me that Sherman speed must be increased in order to be able to flank Panthers more effectively?? using this logic, do you also have to increase the speed of IVH and IVJ from currently 3.8 to 4.6 or whatever just to be able to flank Pershing???!!! Come on.

Post by **Panzerblitz1** » 27 Jul 2017, 02:23

Tiger1996 wrote:Man, where is the logic if you tell me that Sherman speed must be increased in order to be able to flank Panthers more effectively?? using this logic, do you also have to increase the speed of IVH and IVJ from currently 3.8 to 4.6 or whatever just to be able to flank Pershing???!!! Come on.

i know you'll argue for ever, but this is the team decision and this will be in the next patch for a very good reason.

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 27 Jul 2017, 02:30

And I say it again then, unifying the speed of all Shermans to 4.6 is utter bullshit... Specifically given the fact that the speed of Panzer IVs isn't unified on the other hand. And btw, exceptionally increasing the speed of the Easy8 to 5 is absolutely retarded. Frankly I would point at what is right and what is wrong.. clearly, I don't prejudice anyone.

You say 38 km/h is not accurate at all?? Ok, take this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman

Scroll down to the "Speed" which is; 22–30 mph (35–48 km/h) on road, depending upon variant. (Wikipedia)

Or even better, take a look at this...
https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?t ... M4_Sherman
Max speed 38.86 km/h (War Thunder Wiki for M4 Sherman with 75mm gun, which is the HE Sherman btw) So, currently this tank in BK Mod has 3.8 max speed.. which is extremely accurate in terms of realism.

Just admit the truth already. Both gameplay and balance wise as well as realism and historical accuracy.. changing the Sherman speeds as in the change-log preview is completely bullshit.

Post by **Panzerblitz1** » 27 Jul 2017, 03:38

Tiger1996 wrote:And I say it again then, unifying the speed of all Shermans to 4.6 is utter bullshit... Specifically given the fact that the speed of Panzer IVs isn't unified on the other hand. And btw, exceptionally increasing the speed of the Easy8 to 5 is absolutely retarded. Frankly I would point at what is right and what is wrong.. clearly, I don't prejudice anyone.

You say 38 km/h is not accurate at all?? Ok, take this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman

Scroll down to the "Speed" which is; 22–30 mph (35–48 km/h) on road, depending upon variant. (Wikipedia)

Or even better, take a look at this...
https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?t ... M4_Sherman
Max speed 38.86 km/h (War Thunder Wiki for M4 Sherman with 75mm gun, which is the HE Sherman btw) So, currently this tank in BK Mod has 3.8 max speed.. which is extremely accurate in terms of realism.

Just admit the truth already. Both gameplay and balance wise as well as realism and historical accuracy.. changing the Sherman speeds as in the change-log preview is completely bullshit.

Yes 48 km/h on road which is the value taken in count, not 22, with you its always the same music, Monsieur don't want changes, and feel its BS, you just don't even played the game yet, no you didn't!, but still, a little caprice is in good order from Monsieur Tiger, but hey Tiger, we do the game, not you, ok? you're not satisfied? uninstall bk and stop breaking our ballZ.

If we made that change "again" repeating myself here, is for a good reason, did we ever keep something who smell like shit in bk? or unbalanced? NO! we are doing that for you, not for us, so stop F# brake my ballZ, play the game and we will talk.

http://militaryhistorynow.com/2014/10/2 ... rman-tank/

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 27 Jul 2017, 04:11

I hope you are not serious. This is not how you admit facts. Wikipedia pointed out the 48 km/h as the maximum speed for the best variant of all Shemrans... That's the Easy8 if I might say. And the 35 km/h on the other hand is the speed of the slowest Sherman, which is the Jumbo.. that's why Wikipedia said "depending upon variant" in the first place!

And if you look up the other Wiki link, u would quickly notice the maximum speed of the M4 Sherman.. which is the HE Sherman in BK Mod, and it's only 38 km/h which is exactly accurate in the game currently, since that the speed_max value for the M4 Sherman is 3.8 already. I am pretty sure you wouldn't be too happy if I uninstall the mod though... And I am not here to break your balls or whatever. This is not my intention, if I really wanted to do this... Then I guess I could do more. But my intention here is just to spread facts. So don't be mad on me for saying the truth. Sir, the speed changes for Shermans are bullshit. This doesn't mean that the rest of the changes are bullshit too anyhow. As I admit that you never intentionally harm this mod, as you only do ur best to keep everything balanced. However, this speed changes are absolutely disastrous, in terms of both gameplay and realism.

Please take a look at the current vehicle speeds on my spoiler post... By increasing the speed of all Shermans to 4.6, this way you leave IVH/J being MUCH slower. The 76W Sherman is already faster currently than the IVH/J as I wonder why does it have to become even faster??!! And the Easy8 is already as fast as the Panther. Why does it also have to become faster?? Just to be able to flank Panthers more effectively??!! Hell NO. Armor doc already has Jacksons and Pershing to achieve this task... And like I said, it's not a sane logic if u would also manage to increase the speed of Pz.IVs just so they could be able to flank the Pershing more effectively the other way around... So PLEASE re-consider your viewpoint.

Now to the link you shared, I quote:

Later models, like the M4A4 were outfitted with four-speed, 30-cylinder, 470-horsepower Chrysler powerplant. Shermans could reach speeds of 30 mph (48 km/h)

They are obviously speaking about the later models with 76mm guns, not the 75mm M4 Sherman. So there is absolutely no contradiction at all with what I said earlier.. but in fact, this only proves my statement even more.

KornBlatt · Post by **KornBlatt** » 27 Jul 2017, 04:56

Tiger1996 wrote:I hope you are not serious. This is not how you admit facts. Wikipedia pointed out the 48 km/h as the maximum speed for the best variant of all Shemrans... That's the Easy8 if I might say. And the 35 km/h on the other hand is the speed of the slowest Sherman, which is the Jumbo.. that's why Wikipedia said "depending upon variant" in the first place!

And if you look up the other Wiki link, u would quickly notice the maximum speed of the M4 Sherman.. which is the HE Sherman in BK Mod, and it's only 38 km/h which is exactly accurate in the game currently, since that the speed_max value for the M4 Sherman is 3.8 already. I am pretty sure you wouldn't be too happy if I uninstall the mod though... And I am not here to break your balls or whatever. This is not my intention, if I really wanted to do this... Then I guess I could do more. But my intention here is just to spread facts. So don't be mad on me for saying the truth. Sir, the speed changes for Shermans are bullshit. This doesn't mean that the rest of the changes are bullshit too anyhow. As I admit that you never intentionally harm this mod, as you only do ur best to keep everything balanced. However, this speed changes are absolutely disastrous, in terms of both gameplay and realism.

Please take a look at the current vehicle speeds on my spoiler post... By increasing the speed of all Shermans to 4.6, this way you leave IVH/J being MUCH slower. The 76W Sherman is already faster currently than the IVH/J as I wonder why does it have to become even faster??!! And the Easy8 is already as fast as the Panther. Why does it also have to become faster?? Just to be able to flank Panthers more effectively??!! Hell NO. Armor doc already has Jacksons and Pershing to achieve this task... And like I said, it's not a sane logic if u would also manage to increase the speed of Pz.IVs just so they could be able to flank the Pershing more effectively the other way around... So PLEASE re-consider your viewpoint.

Now to the link you shared, I quote:
Later models, like the M4A4 were outfitted with four-speed, 30-cylinder, 470-horsepower Chrysler powerplant. Shermans could reach speeds of 30 mph (48 km/h)

They are obviously speaking about the later models with 76mm guns, not the 75mm M4 Sherman. So there is absolutely no contradiction at all with what I said earlier.. but in fact, this only proves my statement even more.

You are a funny guy, you know man? You play very fast and loose with facts. You start your day angry that Panther is not as fast as in the tank MMO games. Only Panthers made that fast were the early production in 1943 without speed limiters. They added those only a few months after because the Panther could not deal with such a speed and stay working. And of that mechanical limit it is beyond CoH to simulate tanks staying at top speed. Now you are ranting about M4A4s being Sherman 76 and making contradictions while ranting of contradictions. Take it easy. You are wearing yourself out.

Krieger Blitzer · Post by **Krieger Blitzer** » 27 Jul 2017, 05:10

Look who speaks now! Play another, and sustain the chatter. Though it's honestly not a surprise how you try to insert ur nose in here right now, as you are obviously now trying to exploit my disagreement with Panzerblitz1 to your own favor.. just to enforce yourself somewhere where you don't really belong or even care to belong. I still didn't forget your trash conversation with Panzerblitz1 himself recently, not long ago. When you tried to twist every single statement, although being very simple and clear, just so that it would seem like if you are a smart-ass of some sort. Don't play it with me...
And btw; it was Panzerblitz1 himself who called you smart-ass before, not me even.

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