Blitzkrieg Mod Forum

MarKr wrote:The main reason for that change was that the rockets from 210mm are very strong and for 80 ammo too cost effective. Giving it MP increase would not solve this issue. For 100 ammo they can still kill like before you just cannot use them that often and so you need to think where it is better to use them.

I still think no one will use this unit anyway 500 mp 60 fuel 450 mp and now 100 ammo for any barrage killing inf with it now is useless because aftet 1 rocket is spotted enemy take the Run anyways. using stielhandgranate or however IT is called the 100 ammo rocket on wh pak or 37mm ht of pe with it is now way's more usefull then a rain of 100 ammo rocket's wich maybe only dmg.. I don't care for it i'm just saying i bet IT will ne another unused unit now, wespe hummel and mortar bunker are way's more usefull now.

I never understand the logic of counting the price of a building into the price of a unit...why do you do that? Because you need to spent the resources to get the unit? OK, then Pershing's total price is (barrack price) + (WSC price) + (motorpool price) + (motorpool upgrade price) + (Supply yard price) + (Tank depot price) + (1st tank depot upgrade price) + (2nd tank depot upgrade price) + (Pershing price)...I mean...you need all those to get Pershing, right?
Or what is it really? Do you REALLY build the building ONLY to get 210mm Nebel? You never build in it...I don't know...Wespe or PIII or anything else?

Also the 100ammo rocket for 50mm PaK needs direct view and target in range, Nebel has bigger range and is indirect unit. And you say that now opponent just runs away from target zone with units once the first rocket hits...how is it ANY different from the situation before the patch? The spread of the rockets remained the same, the delay between rockets remained same...only thing that changed was the price. How can price of the barrage change the way opponent reacts to the rockets?

MarKr wrote:I never understand the logic of counting the price of a building into the price of a unit...why do you do that? Because you need to spent the resources to get the unit? OK, then Pershing's total price is (barrack price) + (WSC price) + (motorpool price) + (motorpool upgrade price) + (Supply yard price) + (Tank depot price) + (1st tank depot upgrade price) + (2nd tank depot upgrade price) + (Pershing price)...I mean...you need all those to get Pershing, right?
Or what is it really? Do you REALLY build the building ONLY to get 210mm Nebel? You never build in it...I don't know...Wespe or PIII or anything else?

Also the 100ammo rocket for 50mm PaK needs direct view and target in range, Nebel has bigger range and is indirect unit. And you say that now opponent just runs away from target zone with units once the first rocket hits...how is it ANY different from the situation before the patch? The spread of the rockets remained the same, the delay between rockets remained same...only thing that changed was the price. How can price of the barrage change the way opponent reacts to the rockets?

Because it is way's more painful to kill nothing with 100 ammo then with 80.Yes i build anything else it is just that bk Has so much unused unit's now it is one more i can not say yet but i Kinda believe. about 100 ammo stiehlgranate you need view yes but Same with 210 you need view to firing into fog and hitting nothing is also way's to painful. I think you can not compare a pershing and a unit you can kill mortar's/strafe or anything else.. Edit: also you can not Run when stielhandgranate come's when a tank or so moving White 210 fire's it's also again 100 ammo waste

It's not that much big of a deal Lehr From 80 to 100 ammo won't suddenly cause the 210mm Nebels to be useless or underused anyhow! Like I told you before; even the Gliders for example were also nerfed.. but nothing had suddenly turned to be useless or anything, they are still quite useful...

You guy's doesn't get my point i don't think it's Bad nither i am crying.just afraid that it get's a unused unit like alot other's in bk lol

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:I think you can not compare a pershing and a unit you can kill mortar's/strafe or anything else..

That was just an example where I tried to point at how ridiculous it is to count into unit's price the prices of buildings that you need to have before you can build that unit. But if you want an example that is comparably easy to kill...CW Tank commander - the price would be LT + second truck + Captain + 3rd truck + TC price. It just makes no sense to count the buildings/upgrades into the price of the unit too. You have more units available in each of the buildings so it is not like you build that building just to get that one unit from it.

Panzer-Lehr-Division wrote:You guy's doesn't get my point i don't think it's Bad nither i am crying.just afraid that it get's a unused unit like alot other's in bk lol

You might be right...but you might be also wrong. Let's wait and see how often will players use 210mm Nebel in this patch and then we can talk about it further .

I had a game tonight, was a 3v3 and me and my 525 mates were facing 1 luft 1 terror and 1 SE. One of my mates raged after being very pissed off by SE constant artying of wespe/hummels combined with 210 nebels. Nebels were still used, they still destroyed stuff, maybe just one salvo did no damage but it was shooting where i only had crusader and cromwells which backed quite quickly after still taking heavy damage. If there were churchills instead of those tanks they would have probably died.
So to say 210mm Nebels can still be used while still having enough ammo for SPGs salvos and weapon upgrades to infantry (SE player gor assault grens with Stgs at vet 3 and 4 quite quickly).

And i think rocket ability from pak was used so rarelly, much less often than 210 salvo and i would do the same, i mean.... why paying 100 ammo to kill a tank, while you can pay 80 ammo to kill/damage badly many tanks and inf from a bigger distance? In my opinion the same logic could still be applied to theese units with both abilities at 100 ammo.

MarKr wrote:- Added green flare to indicate landing area of all Gliders
- Gliders will arrive 5 seconds after the flare falls

This is actually a quite massive nerf to the RAF doctrine. Almost every CW air player will have a hard time adapting to this change because it was a key factor especially in early game ...

And you guys know for sure that almost no CW air player ever uses the glider in early-mid game for producing units because the units simply underperform for the price since they are also not boosted with commando points in the beginning. So using the glider aggressively in early-midgame is (or was..) its only purpose in my eyes. This advantage is now completely gone. The glider's only advantage is now limited to producing units in mid-late game in my opinion.

With the changes being made, you are getting the glider in the hinterland in early-midgame. The Commandos with stens you get are almost always useless especially on open maps because you have no chance to reach a battle distance that makes the commandos with stens effective (the effective distance is body to body tbh) .. If you plan on leaving this change like it is, you should consider a glider unit rework. Otherwise the glider will almost be completely useless in early-midgame. You can get your commando stens cheaper in the infantry truck but which player gets them anyway ??

Anyways, thanks for the changes, the others seem to be perfectly fine.

Well... i only partially agree with 6thAB here.
The solution to glider crash abuse is, in my opinion, the best you could find: you can still drop your commandos behind enemy lines, and i think it still preserves the capability of removing mgs and mortars since your opponent can move them, preventing (early game) heavy losses in resources invested to get theese units, but not relocate and set up them quickly enough to harm your freshly dropped squad, and the same thing applies to AT towed guns.
"Good" thing is green smoke might still not be noticed by your opponent if properly distracted, letting you "abuse" glider as usual.
Problems come when you're trying to attack a position with infantry squads: after seing the smoke they can easily relocate behind a green cover so to have a huge advantage against glided commandos.

All theese aspects are new downsides for the glider user, but have, from my point of view, made this game feature more realistic: i think gliders were sent behind enemy lines during the night to prevent them from being seen, but if a glider landed somewhere in enemy territory during the day, it would have probably been spotted and units would have taken counter measures (even tho daylight fighting is a map limitation itself).

What i agree with AB on is that early gliders+commandos are now underperforming or, at least, much less worth it: this doctrine is very versatile, but a huge part of its tech tree is focused on infantry upgrades, costing 13 Command Points (not counting the booty traps one which does not directly affect combat capabilities) to fully upgrade your infantry, remembering that 4 of theese 13 command points are just dedicated to glider upgrades, making the tiering-up exceptionally slow. Add the fact you might need some command points to unlock airstrikes and this becomes even slower, delaying the combat effectiveness of commandos to a point of the game when they have to face already veted infantry which, in the case of sten commandos, can easily outrange and kill them. When fully upgraded they can stand enemy infantry in an amazing way, even thanks the the 2 vets they get with unlocks, but, as AB says, this change made their life much harder in the early stages of the game, consistently reducing the possibility of leading operations behind enemy lines ( going straight for SAS to do this is not really an option at the moment since, as sten commandos, they would completely die to the first units sent, or just relocated, to counter their no more sneaky drop).

Personally I didn't have a hard time adapting to this: i just stopped sending glider on enemies (except for rare cases) and substituted it with 95mm cromwell while you produce infantry in the back. You see an mg? You bomb it with cromwell yeeee!! You see a mortar? You bomb it with cromwell yeeeee!! You see some naughty weeds on the field? You bomb it with cromwell yeeeee!! So much fun yeeeeeee!!
I hate the indirect fire solution because it often ruins strategy and challenging gameplay (and pissing off players so much), i thought many times to ask the 95mm cromwell to be removed form RAF doc or, at least, to require it being unlocked from the tech tree, since it makes it too everything-capable and less specialized, but i think it's now very necessary.

Other aspect i think this change has made it harder for CW player is the delay to combat engeneers glider: while commandos have Ab type and longer sprint unlock, which makes them a little harder to hit while closing distance to get in range, sten engies are much harder, once they're not dropped right into the action they really become insanely hard to use. If dropped into the fight they can wipe out entirely even a gebirsjaeger squad, making the best use of stens and flamethrower, but when you're trying to attack with them, flamethrower is just 1 less man shooting while closing the distance, and once they get in range they might already be too few to fight properly.

I'm not yet suggesting changes to this new mechanic, and i probably won't, i'll just try to adapt, but in this case I'm just a little disappointed by devs for not making the announcement here on forum (i'm not using facebook) and have a quick discussion about it before the effective change to consider every aspect even if they already decided this (as i said, i'm still of the idea this is a good solution).

Speaking about underperforming sten commandos, what about this idea? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1932

Players are simply used to win games in 1minute with their Recce-Commando drop "attacks" and thats it, same as WM players with Panthers and more more more.
Green smoke is amazing thing.Nothing changed aside of fact, that now it takes some brains and "timing" for making offmap drops usefull.

To be honest I think that the biggest problem people now have is the fact that they just got use to dropping the gliders right in the middle of action and what is even worse, some people started to perceive Glider's crush on landing as its main purpose rather than side-effect to its main purpose.

If you drop the glider near an MG, you will kill it because either Axis player will not move the MG and they will get crushed, or they will move the MG but packing it up and then setting it up again takes so much time that Stens will rush and kill it anyway. (Or the MG retreats)
And I don't really see what is wrong with the situation where you send your glider to land in the middle of open ground where the Commandos have no cover and thus get slaughtered. You can drop a bit behind the enemy and then use the commandos to flank opponent and force him to move/relocate/retreat. Or drop it in such way that it lands near some cover etc.

Also how does it differ from AB squads and Luft infantry? They also have smoke that tells the opponent where they will land. Do you drop Reg5 directly on heads of your opponent squads in the open field? All these para units can kill opponent quickly if they are close and they all have green smoke and people are still able to use them effectively, why are commandos so much different?

EDIT: And as for RE glider - the sappers are not meant to be super effective combat unit. The purpose of the glider is that you can deploy with it a decent repair unit anywhere and quickly, or you can drop it somewhere near or behind lines and (since RE usually has tons of ammo) lay some mines there so if opponent drives through there, it slows his movement or causes losses. The sappers can be a bit more combat-efficient with the training unlock which gives them one vet level and also reduces the damage they take...also since the flamethrowers got the change which debuffs enemy standing in the fire, they actually only need to start roasting opponent - once that happens they have huge advantage thanks to the debuff on opponent, but in direct charge against opponent they, probably won't give best results...because the are not meant to.

Ok i see the points, i know it you to decide about changes, but i ask you please to announce such changes on forum as well as on facebook next time. I agree glider crashing mgs and mortars was more abused than used and definitly needed some changes.

Difference with ab and luft paras is in my opinion weapons' range considered the "standard" loadout, so they can't really be used in the same way. Stens would really do close to 0 damage from mid long distance, just that.

The thing with announcing stuff on forum is that it never really solves anything - there are always people for the change (in this case it would be Axis players who suffer the most from Gliders crushing their HMGs/Mortars) and people against the change (in this case it would be people who use gliders exactly this way) and they ususally spit arguments on each other and never agree on anything. In some cases we ask the community - that is when we know some change is needed but we are unsure in which way we should go with the solution. But here this was probably the best solution to the situation anyway...the only other solution would be removing the crush from gliders completely...then it would not kill soldiers but it would not destroy walls, bushes and other environmet objects in its landing path.

I guess it is exact same situation, as was with AT handled aiming time adding.This change had brought up maximum of realism from arcade way of gameplay.I know what this "air CW players" are talking about, but again, they are simply used for easy 1push games, so now they feel a bit cornered, but i think we shall give it a time before pointing "green smoke" as a CRUCIAL EARLY-MID GAME PROBLEM

the only other solution would be removing the crush from gliders completely...then it would not kill soldiers but it would not destroy walls, bushes and other environmet objects in its landing path.

LOL.

Gliders will keep their current settings, that arcadish way of crushing things with it was fubar, this abusive way of using Gliders stayed for too long in Bk, so if they feel cornered to use Gliders the way Gliders ARE supposed to be played then they just don't have to play that patch, fair pvp online games will surelly not be for them anyway.

Gotta have to agree, the Gliders change was indeed such a very good one!

6thAirborneDivision wrote:This advantage is now completely gone. The glider's only advantage is now limited to producing units in mid-late game in my opinion.

I honestly doubt that it's completely gone anyhow.. I would say that it's just a little bit less effective now, but of course not completely gone. Whenever I play Brits... I usually pick RAF doc too. So I even used to abuse Gliders myself!
However, I really like it after the change; it's a lot more legit now.

I've read much about that glider abuse on the forum lately. Being exclusively a CW player, i'm still quite surprised, and doubtful about that glider abuse

Is this real ? Never saw that abuse in-game. Dropping a glider in battle will most of the time ends up bad (glider destroyed before dropping its payload)

Not to mention that the trade is no good. Commando HQ glider is precious and have to be set up in a safe area. Cooldown is quite long to call it back. If you lose your commando HQ because you didn't protect it, you lose access to very important doctrinal tech units. And your commando are not strong enough early game to survive the landing and deal damages in the middle of battle.

So, appart the psychological effect of seing mortar team being crushed, I doubt this tactics can make you lose the game, as counterattacking and destroying HQ commando glider will be much more harmful to RAF. And CW players might think this tactic is good, what could be true in short term, yet totally wrong in long term

If this tactics was really used, then delay and smoke is a sound idea.

Btw, my thanks to Markr and Panzerblitz1 for the new patch

The tactic was destorying the pak38 so recce could kill everything else uncontested.

My point was rather to discuss the way you have to use the glider now + its loadout. It is absolutely not wondrous people "abused" the glider in the way it has been done: Because the use of landing the glider with range zero commandos in hinterland is just waaay to bad for the price in early-midgame. Your actions are limited because the range is brutally limited. Not to forget you also have no AT.
At the same time, you will face Gebirgsjäger and they come for nearly the same price (+ weapon and AT) .. not to say that sten commandos even have a hard time against the early and way cheaper sturm pioneers. This is just absolutely ridiculous. Again, not wondrous at all people used to land gliders in direct proximity to hostile units. It is in a way arcadish, but speaking of arcade, setting a sector on constant arty for like 10 minutes (it always feels soo long) is no less arcadish ... you guys know what I mean.

JimQwilleran wrote:Speaking about underperforming sten commandos, what about this idea? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1932

This could be a fair way to enhance the current situation.
Comparing the price with often faced PE luft units, it would be fair enough to additionally auto-equip lee enfields with a bren. There would be no need anymore to drop your glider on enemy units. Because you could quickly set up mid-high range Inf in a defensive way also. I would say in an average game with skilled players on a semi open map 3/4 of infantry battles are held on mid-high range, only 1/4 close range (just a rough guess..). This is what I experienced over the years, it sure depends on map and players. This is a circumstance that totally outclass sten commandos in hinterland.

As I already said: in Mid-Late game, with the unit loadout unlocked and vet commando points spent, this problem no longer exists. Everything is fine then (tbh after spending 8 commando points, the sten commandos are far away from being a unit I would consider "great", but at least they are "okay" now). It is a problem of the early-mid game. I actually think the change you did with this patch is a nice chance and impulse for the glider to be reworked. I would definitely love it!

I don't really think that Gliders need to be completely reworked just because of the green smoke change... They are currently still as useful as they have always been.

I think that the green smoke and 5 sec for gliders is a good change. From realism point of view for sure.

Its not that the commando glider needs reworking just tweaks like the lee enfield vs sten and the call in cost could be lowered a bit

I am sort of surprised how little problems have been reported sofar...are you guys even playing the new patch?

I mean, the patch wasn't as big as some patches in the past but I expected more feedback e.g. are the RA and dummy howitzers OK now? Bren Carriers? The penetration values?