4.9.6. Beta II

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Tiger1996
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 Jan 2017, 11:55

So ya.. based on our recent discussions, then just never-mind anymore about restricting the Quad AA emplacements...

To this though:-
MarKr wrote:Wolf had observed (though he's not sure) that the game tends lag more with CW AI in it and that it seems that it runs smoothly and then there is a moment (as if someone used a switch) when it starts lagging more (that would mean there is some trigger to the lagging). Have you observed something similar? Or do you have some observations of your own?

Actually this statement is particularly true; I can pretty much confirm that I have noticed such a thing from my side too!

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jagdpanther » 08 Jan 2017, 12:04

MarKr wrote:On things such as these (AI - lag) it would be welcomed if you could provide more info...e.g. Wolf had observed (though he's not sure) that the game tends lag more with CW AI in it and that it seems that it runs smoothly and then there is a moment (as if someone used a switch) when it starts lagging more (that would mean there is some trigger to the lagging). Have you observed something similar? Or do you have some observations of your own?

Note: In this case stubbornly claiming "It happens all the time no matter the faction" without really giving it thought will not help; rather the opposite because it might get us off the track in finding the cause so please, if you make a statement in this case, try to be as objective as possible.


I said what i think the likely cause is, this change: "- Used new AI (better cover usage, units usage etc. - huge thanks to the author Martin Steinke)" from beta I. If you could help me on how to use the original AI file so i can test it i would appreciate.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby MarKr » 08 Jan 2017, 14:24

The files are not in the game anymore. You would need to extract it from 4.9.5 version, then extract 4.9.6, insert them to the right place and pack it all together again. This process is very sensitive to mistakes and any such mistake usually leads to the AI ERROR message in the game. According to my experience we would spend more time on figuring out what causes the error message in the game than on actual solving of the lag problem :/.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jagdpanther » 08 Jan 2017, 15:09

MarKr wrote:The files are not in the game anymore. You would need to extract it from 4.9.5 version, then extract 4.9.6, insert them to the right place and pack it all together again. This process is very sensitive to mistakes and any such mistake usually leads to the AI ERROR message in the game. According to my experience we would spend more time on figuring out what causes the error message in the game than on actual solving of the lag problem :/.


And now we are stuck with lag because there MIGHT be some errors? Come on now, just revert that change, dont add it to the patch, what errors will occur if no code is changed, just restored? I'm sure everyone agrees that no lag is more important than better AI.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby MarKr » 08 Jan 2017, 15:12

And we might give up better AI because you SUSPECT that the AI is responsible? We don't even know for sure.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jagdpanther » 08 Jan 2017, 15:17

MarKr wrote:And we might give up better AI because you SUSPECT that the AI is responsible? We don't even know for sure.


That's why testing is needed. But the new AI is the most likely cause IMO since it affects AI, the thing that creates the most lag.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 08 Jan 2017, 16:33

Jagdpanther wrote:I'm sure everyone agrees that no lag is more important than better AI.

Well, I might have already said that I noticed some lag as well... But for me.. it's not that drastic to be honest! I would say that the new Ai is actually as much important as reducing the lag if ever possible; I mean that both matters are very important in fact. Although that judging too early the new Ai right now, is perhaps still based on nothing really certain...

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 09 Jan 2017, 00:09

1- solo or multicoop players would not play with or against Brits AI. Aside presumed lag it could cause, brits are unreliables. If HQ trucks bugs is fixed, Placement is not. I Saw too often a truck rotate on itself to install in an area where it was impossible.

2- more ressources to AI, means more units fielded. That simply means more lags risks.

PS ; more lags have been experienced in pure pvp games ? if not, deduction is easy.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby jonnyyankee » 09 Jan 2017, 12:45

Well I suggest contact the Europe At War AI modders for help or not or simply make some fixes to improve lagging issue

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 09 Jan 2017, 18:36

jonnyyankee wrote:Well I suggest contact the Europe At War AI modders for help or not or simply make some fixes to improve lagging issue


? EaW don't have ai modder, and so far its more bk who helped EaW and not the over way around, Our friend dartbone has already a lot on his shoulder, no need to bother him with something we can manage, no worries ;)
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Blitzkriegrekrut » 09 Jan 2017, 18:51

Sturmtiger is definitely too weak now. One shoot from a Sherman from side and the half of energy was away. (WTF?)
But i like the new difficulty AI, I have lost yesterday for long time vs CPU on hard :shock:

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby MarKr » 09 Jan 2017, 18:58

Sturmtiger has same armor as Kingtiger (in the game) so...is KT easily penetrable by Shermans in same situation? I guess you just had bad luck...also with 200 range how did your opponent got Sherman so close?
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 09 Jan 2017, 19:07

jonnyyankee wrote:Well I suggest contact the Europe At War AI modders for help or not or simply make some fixes to improve lagging issue


At EAW AI generate almost half ressource than bk today. Instead EAW AI unit cheats HP at hardest level to be competitive. EAW AI look like BK ones. EAW also share BK target table (but the old none revised one). Last point is a bit off topic, I admit.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 09 Jan 2017, 19:22

There are only 3 legendary CoH1 mods out there... BK (together with the historical add-on), Battle of The Bulge, and Eastern Front.

And there isn't a 4th one in my humble opinion; but with respect to all others! :)
==========================================
SturmTiger is currently fine as far as I can see.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 09 Jan 2017, 20:01

BOtB is an other one which share bk target table archaic version. But afaik it botb update halted several years ago.

Archaic ; understand old BK TT before it was updated to become what we have today.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby VinnySOB » 09 Jan 2017, 20:39

Panzerblitz1 wrote:
Did you try the mod in easy? or normal? now with the new ai the general levels are higher than previously, please try in Easy and Normal, waiting your feedback.


I do not want to come off as a complainer, as I love the mod and I appreciate everything you guys do to keep this game alive. However, I have now played many games against the new AI on all difficulties, except easy, and I find that the new AI with the increased resources has lost something.

I am not sure what you are going for with the change as I believed the whole point of adding the new AI with 4.9.6 was to add a more intelligent AI that offered more of a PvP type experience by having to deal with smart moves on the part of the AI, like flanking, combined assaults, using emplacements, etc. Maybe I am missing the mark and what you were trying to do is just make the AI harder to deal with, which would explain giving them a resource adjustment. I personally prefer the former over the latter.

Basically, since patch IV I have noticed the following on a pretty consistent basis: the normal AI now spams early tanks and streams them at you quickly, in a similar fashion to the 4.9.5 Expert AI. They appear to be less concerned with flanking or combined assaults and rarely ever use abilities or call-ins.

The new hard AI seems to prefer to build a lot of half tracks and infantry that is sends at you, mostly head on, and it holds heavier units, like tigers, in the base or lingering around the map. It doesn't seem to want to send them out to fight. It will use abilities on occasion and perform some combined assaults, but usually, it just tries to overwhelm with numbers.

The Expert AI builds so fast that it is impossible to keep up with and I have yet to defend against it on any map that does not have a choke point. They build everything and use abilities often; however, an example of them having far too many resources is a game I recently played against it where I was losing badly, and to ensure I could not come back, the Expert AI built a flack 88 and/or an AA gun at every resource point. I was barely getting a tank depot down when I started running into that. Crazy fast and not very fun.

To me, none of these scenarios are as enjoyable as the AI was with the introduction of the 4.9.6 beta. It is kind of like playing hoard mode or operations, where you are fighting start to finish and trying to stave off the assault. Moreover, it almost seems like adding all of theses resources made the AI lose its "intelligence" that it gained with the 4.9.6 beta version 1. It barely retreats now, because it really does not have to as it outnumbers you 4 to 1, and it no longer sets up its attacks (intelligently) as it has so many resources it can just keep throwing troops and vehicles at you.

The great thing with the 4.9.6 AI (was) the fact that it would flank you, avoid areas where you had a good defense, where it would lose troops, and it would counter you with mortars or rockets when it was able to. Plus, it would move tanks with infantry support and only attack when it had a chance of winning the fight. It no longer does this. It simply overwhelms you with numbers and keeps pumping the units out until they either surround your base, or if you kill enough of them, they just stop building units and wait for you to destroy their base, not sure why. Perhaps the 4.9.6 AI was not designed to have such an advantage in resources, as it negates the need to be intelligent with its attacks because they can replace anything they lose. I'm guess here.

Also, I have a Youtube channel (VinnySOB) where I post videos of COH BK Mod gameplay. I have several videos posted showcasing the original 4.9.6 AI, and I specifically show how it seemed to be thinking when it attacks, and it did not involve spamming units to be effective. In fact, I kick the crap out of the new AI (normal and Hard) where I was actually having a difficult time with the previous AI's intelligent attacks and flanking, even on Normal setting. Granted, the new expert AI is far more deadly, but again, it is like hoard mode and I am not enjoying playing against it as being tricked or surprised by the AI sneaking around me or massing an army in the fog of war and pushing at me all at once is far more satisfying than just fending off a constant wave of units. Perhaps the individual who designed the new AI would have more incite into why the AI behaves differently when given unlimited resources.

Lastly, some of the AI behavior appears to be map specific. On a map where things can get congested for vehicles, it usually just stops building them and they sit in a heap or linger in the base. If it is a wide open map, you can expect a river of tanks quickly and constantly. Anyway, this has been my experience with the new high resource AI. I assume I am not alone in my analysis, but I have only seen one other post regarding the new AI, so maybe it is just me. At present, I would prefer if you revert the AI back to the original 4.9.6. It was damn near perfect.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 09 Jan 2017, 21:12

VinnySOB wrote: I believed the whole point of adding the new AI with 4.9.6 was to add a more intelligent AI that offered more of a PvP type experience by having to deal with smart moves on the part of the AI, like flanking, combined assaults, using emplacements, etc.


It is something you can dream of, but not believe.


Roughly, for what I know, main changes made AI more rich. Just release news said AI have been tuned, seems push players to phatasmagoric interpretations on what they experienced on recent games. Shortly I m close to think people see change everywhere even where there is not, just because release news said something have change.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby MarKr » 09 Jan 2017, 21:46

We decided to add the resources to AI because some players complained that playing against AI was too easy. However it is possible that the AI works differently with different amount of resources...if you guys consider it to be broken now or not fun or whatever, we can revert the resources back..or increase only MP or Ammo income, so they can build more infantry and use abilities more often but Fuel can stay as it was so they won't spam tanks that much.

about map-specific AI: I think you might be right about this...I think it has something to do with how the map-maker made the map because path finding for AI simply sucks on some maps. So I might be wrong but I believe that this is not a problem of AI but rather the map.

Roughly, for what I know, main changes made AI more rich. Just release news said AI have been tuned, seems push players to phatasmagoric interpretations on what they experienced on recent games. Shortly I m close to think people see change everywhere even where there is not, just because release news said something have change.
Actually when we announced "better AI" in the first beta of 4.9.6 we got AI files from a Martin Steinke who made many changes to the AI himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sql0x-c ... e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4zwTXNoiQ&t=386s
If you have time you can watch these two videos where he showcases the AI behavior...you can see there that the AI works better than it worked in previous versions of BK.

EDIT:
This is a speculation from my side but it might be possible that the AI was made with expectation that it will have more MP at disposal...in his videos he mentions that he made some tweaks to the game and also to the amount of resources provided by points - most noticeably the Strategic points show +30 instead of our current...how much we have in BK? +8? So maybe if we only boost MP income for each AI level the situation might improve...
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Blitzkriegrekrut » 09 Jan 2017, 22:30

MarKr wrote:Sturmtiger has same armor as Kingtiger (in the game) so...is KT easily penetrable by Shermans in same situation? I guess you just had bad luck...also with 200 range how did your opponent got Sherman so close?


Hm crazy... maybe just bad luck.
But another thing: I destroyed a complety base and a few shermans (5-6) with my sturmtiger and it doensn't have any veteran status, even my tankcomander in it.
Maybe is it possible to make that the sturmtiger gets the veteran ranks faster?
Or was it a bug?

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Blitzkriegrekrut » 09 Jan 2017, 22:41

Tiger1996 wrote:There are only 3 legendary CoH1 mods out there... BK (together with the historical add-on), Battle of The Bulge, and Eastern Front.


Yeah, BK is best one, and it is sad that BotB seams dead now, it seriously need a patch and so I don't play it more. EAW is nice from the idea, with a lot of fronts, but to buggy and unbalanced. I don't think that it will ever be fixed.
EF is nice too, I wait of the new steam version that coming out soon 8-)

Another mod that I love but is dead too is Normandy 44. I really love the concept and the various skins and the choice between the real divisions that fought in normandy. That's the only thing I miss in BK.
I still play N44 with COH DVD version patched to 2.601 with Ken's 1.7 version, all others are unfortunately to buggy.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby jonnyyankee » 09 Jan 2017, 23:16

The important is fix the Lag issues no matters how. :D

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby VinnySOB » 10 Jan 2017, 14:40

Jalis wrote:
VinnySOB wrote: I believed the whole point of adding the new AI with 4.9.6 was to add a more intelligent AI that offered more of a PvP type experience by having to deal with smart moves on the part of the AI, like flanking, combined assaults, using emplacements, etc.


It is something you can dream of, but not believe.


Roughly, for what I know, main changes made AI more rich. Just release news said AI have been tuned, seems push players to phatasmagoric interpretations on what they experienced on recent games. Shortly I m close to think people see change everywhere even where there is not, just because release news said something have change.


Thanks for assuming I am imagining the change. However, the proof is in the pudding. Go and watch any of the 4.9.6 beta videos I have up on my youtube channel (VinnySOB) and you will see what I am talking about. In fact I put up a video with the new AI and it is a perfect example of how different it has become. Again, I am happy the mod is still supported, so I will play it either way. I just prefer that every match is not a grind involving holding off wave after wave of tanks. That is basically what the very original AI did.

MarKr wrote:We decided to add the resources to AI because some players complained that playing against AI was too easy. However it is possible that the AI works differently with different amount of resources...if you guys consider it to be broken now or not fun or whatever, we can revert the resources back..or increase only MP or Ammo income, so they can build more infantry and use abilities more often but Fuel can stay as it was so they won't spam tanks that much.

about map-specific AI: I think you might be right about this...I think it has something to do with how the map-maker made the map because path finding for AI simply sucks on some maps. So I might be wrong but I believe that this is not a problem of AI but rather the map.

Roughly, for what I know, main changes made AI more rich. Just release news said AI have been tuned, seems push players to phatasmagoric interpretations on what they experienced on recent games. Shortly I m close to think people see change everywhere even where there is not, just because release news said something have change.
Actually when we announced "better AI" in the first beta of 4.9.6 we got AI files from a Martin Steinke who made many changes to the AI himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sql0x-c ... e=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4zwTXNoiQ&t=386s
If you have time you can watch these two videos where he showcases the AI behavior...you can see there that the AI works better than it worked in previous versions of BK.

EDIT:
This is a speculation from my side but it might be possible that the AI was made with expectation that it will have more MP at disposal...in his videos he mentions that he made some tweaks to the game and also to the amount of resources provided by points - most noticeably the Strategic points show +30 instead of our current...how much we have in BK? +8? So maybe if we only boost MP income for each AI level the situation might improve...


This is the original hard AI 4.9.6: As you will see, it flanks, doesn't use 20 tanks to overwhelm. This is at 25 minutes in. https://youtu.be/opTAZgwP_Rk?t=25m34s

This is the new high resource AI: as you will see, it is sending wave after wave of tanks and my AI teammate is basically doing the same. This is not the same map, but it is similar. Also, the match was fun, but I do not want every match to be like this, which at this point seems to be the case. And, when I play a 3v3 or 4v4, it is like I am not even there. All the AI on both sides just pumps out units and goes straight for the enemy base. https://youtu.be/TLZwr-MqH6Q?t=25m15s for continuity this is also 25 minutes in.

You can also watch Martin's videos above in the original post and you will see the difference from his AI videos to my second AI video. Again, I will play it either way, but I think it was better before this new change. And, by the way, I expect to win 99% of matches against the AI, PvP I do not fare as well, but I have videos which show some pretty outstanding moves by the Martin original AI, even on normal, that would surprise me or even push me out of an area with a large counter attack. That was really fun! Being surprised by the AI is really what makes it challenging to me, not mobs of tanks.

Hey, actually, you guys put in BK fun mode, which is basically the way the AI is getting resources now, so can't there just be a High resources mode for AI only? That way, people who want to play Martin's original AI, would be able to as it could be the default, and you could have AI BK Fun mode for those who love taking on mobs of tanks game after game. Is that even possible? This is last time I will post on the topic as I know I have taken up too much time on it anyway. As always, thanks for the amazing mod and continued support.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 10 Jan 2017, 16:33

We will fix that, we are working on it, im pretty sure for the next beta you'll see the difference.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby VinnySOB » 10 Jan 2017, 16:37

Panzerblitz1 wrote:We will fix that, we are working on it, im pretty sure for the next beta you'll see the difference.


Thank you, I appreciate it.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby MarKr » 10 Jan 2017, 16:43

Hey, actually, you guys put in BK fun mode, which is basically the way the AI is getting resources now, so can't there just be a High resources mode for AI only? That way, people who want to play Martin's original AI, would be able to as it could be the default, and you could have AI BK Fun mode for those who love taking on mobs of tanks game after game. Is that even possible?
In a way you can play the game just as you did in the past only set the AI difficulty one level lower than in 4.9.6 Beta 1 and the AI will have same resources as before...As I said:
Before Beta II resource multipliers for AI were: Easy: x1; Normal: x1.5; Hard: x2; Expert: x3
(that means it takes the income of each MP, ammo and fuel that the AI has at disposal (starting values + captured resource points + other modifiers such as observation posts/CW Captain bonus etc.) and that number is multiplied according to the AI level you are playing against)
All we did was adding +0.5 to each of them, so now it is x1.5 for easy, x2 for normal, x2.5 for hard and x3.5 for expert.

So if you were used to play against Hard in and before 4.9.6 Beta 1 then now play "normal" and the AI will have same resources as it had previously on "hard". If you played "normal" then play "easy" and again the resource income for AI is the same in this case.
Hard is in Beta 2 between hard and expert in Beta 1; Expert is outright insane.
So on easy and normal you should be able to play as before (with tactical AI) and hard and expert should provide the "spam like crazy experience"...This is theory because I can't see a logical reason why the AI should act differently when you compare medium(hard) in Beta1 and easy(medium) in Beta2 (same behavior files, same resource income).
Anyway I will try some more resource tweaks for each difficulty - lowering fuel so it cannot send streams of vehicles and will be forced to work more with infantry. We'll see how it works...
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