4.9.6. Beta II

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Tiger1996
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Jan 2017, 05:22

@VinnySOB;
Really nice to see such a detailed post from your side! :)
However; I still feel like expert Ai is in fact quite easily beatable.. even after the recent changes on this beta regarding resources :D But well, I probably understand that the case might be different with u and others :lol:
Can't tell much about Ai though... It's not my concern after all. Yet, I "think" it's currently fine so far :P

Anyway, back to our subject about Pz.IV.Ausf.D;
BK mod is supposed to be as realistic as possible... But not authentic, while I believe that killing the Pz4.D so fast like this using Quad.50 is actually considered a super authentic level of realism; and not just "realistic" as it's more like an extreme trend of realism this way! So it's like I said on my previous post earlier;
Tiger1996 wrote:
MarKr wrote:We're talking about penetration values here. If we use your logic that a mortar shell can hit the top of "opened" vehicles and thus disable them with a single shot...well, would want that for infantry grenades too? Actually it was a technique during the war that soldiers climbed up on tank and threw grenades/ shot hand guns inside, killing the crew. So saying that mortars should easily kill opened vehicles is not really a valid point here.

Hmm... Well, just reduce Pz4.D price maybe?? it's just too fragile this way.

But if we keep speaking like this way.. then i can provide a different kind of argument... Guys; what if i tell u that the Axis 37mm flaks should actually penetrate and also destroy Shermans? Like in War Thunder!
So, the OstWind for example would be able to kill Shermans! How about that? Not cool, right?!
Also, from a realistic point of view.. it's not actually confirmed that the Quad.50 would be ever as much reliable in penetrating the Pz4.D like that. Maybe from the rear... But for sure not frontally, Quads can penetrate up to 25mm or something. But this Pz4.D is about 30 to 40mm of armor thickness!
Yet, balance wise too.. it's acting like a half-track this way :/ Half-tracks die to Quads, which is acceptable.. since they are only around 10 to 15mm of steel armor. But this is still a tank on the other hand! And you can't rush against simple Quads with it??!! Don't u think that this unit this way is so much about being an outsider?
It costs as much as a Sherman somehow... But I would rather fix the Quads against it. Than to reduce its price!

About this once again;
Tiger1996 wrote:>>> Most importantly though.. plz check what's exactly wrong with Tiger1 HE shells... They are super inaccurate, unlike all other HE rounds. I tested almost every single-shot HE on all tanks! It should be as effective as the one from the Pershing. <<<

Now after testing all the other HEs from all other tanks. I guess I can repeat what I have said with so much confidence, the HE rounds of the Tiger1 atm are literally the WORST of all... Damn, it barely hits anything, or estimated perhaps just for a single 1 time out of 10 attempts.. and it's really not exaggeration. Just compare it to any other HE... o.O Against vehicles and emplacements, it might be working better though... Nevertheless, the accuracy is fked up sooooooo badly against inf for some reason!

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 05 Jan 2017, 06:26

Tiger1996 wrote:But if we keep speaking like this way.. then i can provide a different kind of argument... Guys; what if i tell u that the Axis 37mm flaks should actually penetrate and also destroy Shermans? Like in War Thunder!
So, the OstWind for example would be able to kill Shermans! How about that? Not cool, right?!


In theory it could if flanked and at point blank, but it is limit.
... war thunder. War thunder is nice but allow full band of pzgr 40 shell to a flak panzer supposed to fight plane, not tank. It is still not very realistic. Second it is historically inacurate. Germany was in dramatic wolfram shortage. Pzgr 40 production was already halted by july 1942 for 50 mm shell, to save wolfram, so imagine for 37 mm especially if not intented to target tanks.

Tiger1996 wrote:Also, from a realistic point of view.. it's not actually confirmed that the Quad.50 would be ever as much reliable in penetrating the Pz4.D like that. Maybe from the rear... But for sure not frontally, Quads can penetrate up to 25mm or something. But this Pz4.D is about 30 to 40mm of armor thickness!


It is what I said previously, not frontally, but if falnked the PIV side and rear armour would be cut in little piece by a .50cal.
Point, anyway the PIV D have nothing to do at coh BK time, from june 44 to may 45.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Devilfish » 05 Jan 2017, 12:28

Tiger1996 wrote:Pz4 D blablabla

There are so many realistic flaws in the mod already that it can barely be used in reasoning.
I don't need to bother researching stuff to say that quad .50 penetrating pz4 D is a bullcrap in the current state of the mod. At least frontally. I'm surprised someone even argue about that.
"Only by admitting what we are can we get what we want"

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 05 Jan 2017, 12:31

now the AI is spamming tanks within the first 10 minutes of the game. Not only does the AI have more resources, they use those resources to build observation posts on everything, giving them even more resources, which makes that game all about fending off a huge tank spam right away. I watched a replay of the last game I played and even though I beat the Hard AI, they had max resources very early and they actually spammed Tigers, which is not too fun to come across. It definitely makes it harder, but it gets rid of the progression aspect of the game.


Did you try the mod in easy? or normal? now with the new ai the general levels are higher than previously, please try in Easy and Normal, waiting your feedback.

Devilfish wrote:There are so many realistic flaws in the mod already that it can barely be used in reasoning.
I don't need to bother researching stuff to say that quad .50 penetrating pz4 D is a bullcrap in the current state of the mod. At least frontally. I'm surprised someone even argue about that.


This one for exemple isn't that bad regarding historical accurancy the 50 Cal did penetrate the Pz4 D 14,5 mm turret plate (side) or the 20mm side armor, the 50 caliber armor-piercing cartridges had a capability of completely perforating 0.875" (22.2 mm) of face-hardened armor steel plate at 100 yards (91 m), and 0.75" (19 mm) at 547 yards (500 m).

Most of the problems regarding armor historical accurancy is that in coh1 we don't have the 5 "general" armor values, top, floor, rear, front, sides, only rear/front, and we need to make our own soup according to that, for big vehicles its a bit more easy as they are thick pretty much everywhere, but for medium and lights armor its tricky, when you have a Panzer IV Ausf. D with 30mm frontal armor, 14,5mm sides turret armor and 20mm for the hull sides and rear, its more difficult to set, those settings reflect more the general armor and strengh of the unit in game, this to stay in the balance line.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Devilfish » 05 Jan 2017, 13:16

@pzblitz
What I meant is that despite the actual realism, from gameplay point of view it's bs if quad pens pz4 D frontally (maybe even in general).

What you said is one of the reasons why there are already many realism flaws in the mod. For instance Panther had side armor 40mm (50 for G), side turret 45, front turret 100 (rounded on the edges, causing shot trap). On a top of that it had only one reverse gear, resulting in a reverse speed only around 3.5km/h.

So this means that Panther could be easily knocked out by a 75 sherman if flanked from the side and could hardly escape due to the reverse speed (quite opposite in mod). Yet, considering the current mod setup, it would kinda ruin the balance, wouldn't it?
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 05 Jan 2017, 13:37

Devilfish wrote:So this means that Panther could be easily knocked out by a 75 sherman if flanked from the side and could hardly escape due to the reverse speed (quite opposite in mod). Yet, considering the current mod setup, it would kinda ruin the balance, wouldn't it?


Yes of course and its logic for keeping a nice balance, imagine if the early and the cheapest Sherman 75mm could easely rekt the Panthers... :roll: again for this particular exemple, the frontal armor of the Panther is more represented than his sides or his rear with the coh1 armor system, we do the job with Relic tools, if relic didn't got lazy to give more precise datas to their models, it would be much easier for us, instead of giving an average data to keep the gameplay fun and balanced for each units.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 05 Jan 2017, 18:15

Panzerblitz1 wrote:and we need to make our own soup according to that

And bottom line is.. my own soup to this, would be to prevent the Quad.50 and 30.cal MGs from penetrating the Pz4.D entirely in the next beta! Because game-play wise... It's total bullshit to be honest.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 05 Jan 2017, 18:33

Panzerblitz1 wrote:Yes of course and its logic for keeping a nice balance, imagine if the early and the cheapest Sherman 75mm could easely rekt the Panthers...


It is exactly what happen at Arracourt, east of France in fall 1944. At this time, IIRC panthers crews were mostly rookies, most esperienced were on PZ4. More experience US crews often maneuvered better flanked panzer and destroyed them. It is like that poor M4 on the paper managed to win on theorically strong opponents.

Point not only a m4 can defeat a panther with a average 75, but even the stuart can from a fair distance with its 37 mm.

I was speaking above of dramatic german wolfram shortage, but more dramatic was oil shortage. It is the reason why it was useless in 1944 german increase plane and tank production. They would have make twice more it wouldnt have change anything. They had no oïl to make them run.

What we learn aside that from oil shortage is axis was unable to train correctly tank crews, especially drivers. (it Worth for Luftwaffe pilots too)
So it is not a surprize to see panther defeated by supposed insignifiant foe, when the driver is far to master its panzer.

However people still think germans crews were incredibly experienced, in indestructible steel Superior tanks (made of germany of course).

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Jan 2017, 00:05

So, about the new KT models... Can we keep them plz? :P Probably u can start a poll for it or something! And ya, wish if the hidden coaxial MG of the more expensive version is hopefully fixable.. I think it shouldn't be so much of an issue to fix at all; since that according to what I have seen.. the hidden top turret MG of the less expensive version has been successfully fixed already now.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 06 Jan 2017, 00:16

the Bk model will be back, this model is an error and its gonna be fixed soon.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Tiger1996 » 06 Jan 2017, 00:19

Oh well, that's fine then...

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby adam-ze-shooter » 06 Jan 2017, 10:27

VinnySOB wrote:As always, thanks for continuing to support the mod. I realize you cannot please everyone; however, as someone who primarily plays against the AI, the change involving more resources for the AI than the player is not too good (in my opinion).

I really like the improved AI that was added in the last patch, but now the AI is spamming tanks within the first 10 minutes of the game. Not only does the AI have more resources, they use those resources to build observation posts on everything, giving them even more resources, which makes that game all about fending off a huge tank spam right away. I watched a replay of the last game I played and even though I beat the Hard AI, they had max resources very early and they actually spammed Tigers, which is not too fun to come across. It definitely makes it harder, but it gets rid of the progression aspect of the game.

Seeing the first Tiger or Pershing or Jumbo or (throw in an expensive unit here) is the "Oh crap" moment when you hope you have something to take it out. Seeing several Tigers ten minutes in is just a grind. I don't know, I will keep trying it out, but I really liked the AI the way it was at the start of the Beta. I would even lose matches to it because it would flank me and cut off supplies or sneak a bunch of units in behind me and build a forward base.

Also, before this new beta patch was released, I recently reverted back to 4.9.5 and I was amazed at how different the game was, especially the AI. They mindlessly spam units and come at you Banzai style. That is kind of what the AI feels like again with this new added resources patch. They are just not spamming AT guns and light tanks, now they spam Panzer IV's and Tigers. This also goes for any AI teammates you have. I hope this change to the AI's resources does not stay. Either way, I really do appreciate all of the hard work you guys do to keep this game alive.

And, all of the U.S. AB units created from AB headquarters properly retreat to the HQ squad. Thanks.

As for the FOW, I actually liked the fact that arty emplacements did not show up, but I realize this is probably not something you can fix on an individual unit basis. It was fun while it lasted though.

Lastly, the fix to the AT squads is a huge game changer, to me. I really like the fact that AT squads can no longer sprint at you Rambo style and fire rockets. I have not tried the ambush yet, but that seems like a better use for the AT squad. That is probably the best fix yet. Thanks again.


I have to agree. I mainly play AI and now I get absolutely swamped by like 30 tanks at once lol it turns the game for me into a complete defense from the start and you cant progress and it seems the AI has unlimited resources even after losing 100+ tanks they never ease up. I like the improvements in general but those tank spawns are too much haha (Playing on normal)

Cheers tho guys for keeping this game and mod alive!! its the best thing out there!!

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 06 Jan 2017, 10:55

In mode: Easy? Normal? Hard? Expert? if you guys used to play Hard or expert, try to lower the difficulty, waiting your feedbacks.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby MarKr » 06 Jan 2017, 14:01

The only difference (at least as far as I know) in AI difficulties is the speed of resource income. Before Beta II it was:
Easy: x1
Normal: x1.5
Hard: x2
Expert: x3
(that means it takes the income of each MP, ammo and fuel that the AI has at disposal (starting values + captured resource points + other modifiers such as observation posts/CW Captain bonus etc.) and that number is multiplied according to the AI level you are playing against)
All we did was adding +0.5 to each of them, so now it is x1.5 for easy, x2 for normal, x2.5 for hard and x3.5 for expert. The changes made in the first beta were done by Martin Steinke and dealt with AI behavior (cover usage, unit combinations etc.). These changes are still present in Beta II and we did not touched that at all; only the resource income for specific AI levels.
So "easy" level should now be the same as in previous versions the "normal" level. If you were used to play against "normal", then now it corresponds to "hard" in previous versions etc.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 06 Jan 2017, 15:14

The A.I. is a real dude now, expert are for jedi's only ;)
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby JimQwilleran » 06 Jan 2017, 15:26

That's exactly the opposite of what I have felt about the new ai. For me expert became too easy with the new patch. It takes too long brakes between the attacks.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 06 Jan 2017, 15:28

Really? well the "force" might be different on certain pc's then
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Jalis » 06 Jan 2017, 19:11

There is a bit a triumphalism I think. Of course, like said, people would be grateful BK team works a little for solo and multicoop players. However playing with tuning parameter is a minimalist solution. If I can understand Panzerbiltz make the promotion, this is its job, there is lot of optimisn in the advertising.

The best that can be achieved changing tuning parameter, is to change normal in hard, hard in expert and expert in something else. The new expert in the best case could be more challenging, or can die anyway, but in a lack of ressources. Usually it will be a more ferocious spawm, without be smarter in its choice.

so, in my opinion this change is positive, especially if nobody played easy, and lot of people achieved victotry at expert. It make difficult setting more balance, but that s all.

For exemple, I almost sure attempt to change glue military percentage or purchase unit selection range, in personality file, will give few to no results.

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Wolf » 06 Jan 2017, 19:17

Jalis wrote:especially if nobody played easy

This was exactly the reason I wanted the change, many people played expert, almost nobody easy. This was easy way to do something with it.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Kasbah » 06 Jan 2017, 19:31

Is it possible to lower the cooldown of the Sturmtiger while gaining veterancy? If not, I really don't see the benefit over a V1. You have to wait 6 minutes per shot and pay 700 mp. Yeah, the shot is quicker and there is no preliminary sound but apart from that...

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 06 Jan 2017, 19:34

Jalis wrote: If I can understand Panzerbiltz make the promotion, this is its job, there is lot of optimisn in the advertising.


No, its not my job ;) but thank you anyway.

Kasbah wrote:Yeah, the shot is quicker and there is no preliminary sound but apart from that...


...its more challenging.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Kasbah » 06 Jan 2017, 19:35

and useless. I don't see the point of having it. Could have been some way worth. I wouldn't mind to pay more and have a lower cooldown but like that I would clearly keep the V1

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Panzerblitz1 » 06 Jan 2017, 20:11

Kasbah wrote:and useless. I don't see the point of having it. Could have been some way worth. I wouldn't mind to pay more and have a lower cooldown but like that I would clearly keep the V1


cooldown has been lowered compare to the V1, and i don't agree that the ST is useless, sorry mate.
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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Kasbah » 06 Jan 2017, 20:13

compared to the V1 I still don't see any benefit, but well, no problem to keep playing old versions

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Re: 4.9.6. Beta II

Postby Wolf » 06 Jan 2017, 20:17

It doesn't have to have benefit, it can even be worse than V1, we have no problem with lowering/making Terror capabilities harder a bit.
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