4.9.6 Beta

[Tor]

Agree with 95%
Play axis for me, it's painful surviving and waiting panther g for revenge.

[Panzerblitz1]

i agree. to make the sturmtiger as a reward unit for sturmpanzer IV since both of them looks the a little bit similar.. making it's current reward partner ''Grille'' to be a doctrine exclusive unit instead.

Nonsense! absolutely not! the Stupa is an Howitzer based on the Panzer IV chassis, the Sturmtiger is a rocket launcher with the King Tiger armor based on the Tiger 1 chassis, the SturmTiger will stay at his current V1 replacement reward unit.

In few easy words:

V1= Nuke vertical strike with huge damage impossible to encounter, no range limitation.
OR
Sturmtiger: Heavy Panzer rocket launcher with curved rocket strike (need to be well positionned) with same damage as the V1, can be destroyed, limited range, cost money.

And please guys don't tell me this unit is OP because, this unit will never be OP even if invincible compare to the V1, the V1 will always precisely strikes his targets with 100% hits ratio, this will not the be the case for the SturmTiger for sure, you will need to take care of this unit in game if you still want to keep your "V1 like" ability.

[Commissar]

I subscribe to every word that Sukin said. If I had a good skill of English , as he is, likely I would have written a lot of such posts. But here is another small thing that i want to notice... Axis compared to Allies has very few units which can find "hiden" units (spotter, snipers, RAF units, Tanks buster teams etc...)

Let's just check which units axis has right now : spotter, motorbike/schwimmwagen as WH and schwimmwagen and cattenkrad as PE. (PE schwimmwagen 128 has much longer range of finding "hidden" units.) , a "vampire" HT in luft doc. That's all.

Alright. On the other hand we can see : Recce, Simple jeep (withour armor or recoiless gun). M8 Greyhound (also known as the M20 scout car), lieutenant and capitan and other stuff like radiobeacon in RAF doc.

Now we can do a simple conclusion : axis should be kitted out by some units which can find "hidden". Or some units of allies should be deprived of finding ''hidden units'' function.

That's all what i want to say.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

i agree. to make the sturmtiger as a reward unit for sturmpanzer IV since both of them looks the a little bit similar.. making it's current reward partner ''Grille'' to be a doctrine exclusive unit instead.

Nonsense! absolutely not! the Stupa is an Howitzer based on the Panzer IV chassis, the Sturmtiger is a rocket launcher with the King Tiger armor based on the Tiger 1 chassis, the SturmTiger will stay at his current V1 replacement reward unit.

In few easy words:

V1= Nuke vertical strike with huge damage impossible to encounter, no range limitation.
OR
Sturmtiger: Heavy Panzer rocket launcher with curved rocket strike (need to be well positionned) with same damage as the V1, can be destroyed, limited range, cost money.

And please guys don't tell me this unit is OP because in comparaison the V1, the V1 will always precisely strikes his targets with 100% hits ratio, this will not the be the case for the SturmTiger for sure, you will need to take care of this unit in game if you still want to have the "V1' like ability.

Thats not about unit beeing OP or not, gameplay wise, placing Sturmtiger in terror dec is incredibly stupid, seems like you didnt read my post at all.

[Panzerblitz1]

Why stupid? where will you put the ST rocket launcher with the V1 damage? in blitz doc? with all Tigers? this i feel a bit stupid, do you imagine what 380 kg of explo can do in the Blitz doc? this for sure will be OP as hell.
Gamaplay wise its absolutely the same, nothing change compare to the V1, except being nerfed a bit.

[Tor]

Tiger ace sucks, overpriced terror tiger overpriced again and receives the name of TIGER ACE!!! omg give us reward, i take everything.

[Panzerblitz1]

Tiger ace sucks, overpriced terror tiger overpriced again and receives the name of TIGER ACE!!! omg give us reward, i take everything.

We know, we know you don't like the tiger ace, but the Tiger ace wil stay.

[Tor]

Find someone who like!?

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Why stupid? where will you put the ST rocket launcher with the V1 damage? in blitz doc? with all Tigers? this i feel a bit stupid.

Lol, really? So in terror doc its not with Tigers and Panthers? Reward for Ace will be perfect, a lot of CP, costly + fill the thing which doc really lacks ( instrument for breaking a heavy defence ).

Stupid is to place a powerfull arty unit in a doc which already can deal with heavy defences ( Walking stuka ), while some other docs are struggle badly against it. If you attached so much to Sturmtiger=V1 than move the walking stuka elsewhere.

But seems that you dont see the root of a problem, in a few words: many axis docs are underpowered or have big weaknesess which can be easily exploited by allies. Terror doc is good and this is core doc in any german team, also the most popular one, so, why the hell it needs a Sturmtiger? Sturmtiger is a great chance to even a value of BK and Terror docs ( currently Terror is obviouisly better ), but you want to make even bigger gap.

[Panzerblitz1]

Stupid is to place a powerfull arty unit in a doc which already can deal with heavy defences ( Walking stuka ), while some other docs are struggle badly against it. If you attached so much to Sturmtiger=V1 than move the walking stuka elsewhere.

Now we are talking, the ST is the V1, its final, but i do agree on the walking stuka, and yes the walking stuka could support a weaker doctrine who can't deal with heavy defense, yes.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

do you imagine what 380 kg of explo can do in the Blitz doc?

Ye, I imagine is as an only counter against heavy defences this doc can have. It will be costly and BK player most likely will never get a combo of Sturmtiger\Tiger\storm squads and ostwind because this will cost a fortune.

[Tor]

1 Wespe reward for stuh? at least something.

[Panzerblitz1]

Blitzkrieg Doctrine is based of quick movement with good panzers, the ST won't fit in the doctrine, the Walking stuka who is a more faster and lighter unit can fit in there, give a good anti-defense support, and be a much more logical choice for the Blitzkrieg doctrine.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Blitzkrieg Doctrine is based of quick movement with good panzers, the ST won't fit in the doctrine, the Walking stuka who is a more faster and lighter unit can fit in there, and give a good anti-defense support, and be a much more logical choice in the doctrine.

This, I like.

In my old topic about doctrines power ( sadly cant find it, seems like it was deleted ) I also suggested to move Tigers from BK to TH doc. So Blitz will be all about rushing and motorized units ( panthers, walking stuka storms with their truck and etc.).

Tigers will be in TH which also will make them up greatly. This will make doctrines power much smoother and I can guarantee that TH terror and BK all will be used frequently. Currently the general attitude to this docs is following: terror - good, BK - worse vesrion of terror, TH - pretty much useless.

Im happy that finally devs are ready to consider some doc changes, in past it simply sucked "we know that some doctrines suck, but we cant change it because of a guy who dissapeared a century ago prohibited it", thats preety much the reason why TH is dead for ages now, we all know that old devs planned a big doc revision for both factions, but evetually only TH got changed, obviously this doc doesnt fit to the actual bk docs state, its even more spezialized than CW arty doc.

[Tor]

Any details? stuka replace maultier? and that in terror?

[Jagdpanther]

What about if we don't put it at all?

What happened to all the people that were tired of experimental/prototype units and wanted them removed? Many agree SP shouldn't be in the game and now we are adding more of these units? SP was a prototype unit that most probably never shot a single round at an enemy tank but you see it in most of the BK games now, at least half of the games. Now by adding the ST people will obviously go for it first because its new and cool. But all this will turn the game from a serious tactical realistic ww2 RTS to a childish "who has the better gun" game full of huge explosions and ridiculous units.

BK is known for quality, polish, attention to details, realism unlike other "let's throw all the units and see what we get" mods full of bugs, low quality textures, icons and decisions. The ST skin is low resolution texture as well, it looks washed out, another small detail that removes a bit from the quality of the mod. All these small details add up. Even if it stays (i'm sure it will since a lot of people can't see past the "wow such a cool new unit") at least put a quality skin on it.

My opinion is that both SP and now the ST are not bringing any value to the mod. Allied doctrine was many medium tanks and tank destroyers not a ridiculous tank to counter all the german heavy tanks and the ST was a german wonder weapon like the rest that were just that, "wonders", never used effectively in combat to make a difference. But i'm sure now in BK we'll see the ST as often as the SP.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

The idea regarding BK doc: Tiger and Tiger Ace can be moved to Tank hunters doc ( there a lot of useless unlocks which can be replaced easily, like AP rounds and Periscops ) 2 empty spots can be filled by Walking Stuka unlock and Stuh unlock ( currently you unlock it together with battle group summon ) So the tech tree will be: Panzer 4 --> Stuh --> Panther --> Walking stuka ( should be a late game unit to prevent people camping arround it ).

[Panzerblitz1]

What happened to all the people that were tired of experimental/prototype units and wanted them removed? Many agree SP shouldn't be in the game and now we are adding more of these units? SP was a prototype unit that most probably never shot a single round at an enemy tank

Wrong.

"let's throw all the units and see what we get" mods full of bugs, low quality textures, icons and decisions.

Wrong, and frankly it makes me mad to hear that in a personal point of view...but whatever.

The ST skin is low resolution texture as well, it looks washed out, another small detail that removes a bit from the quality of the mod

Wrong.

and the ST was a german wonder weapon like the rest that were just that, "wonders", never used effectively in combat

Wrong.

We are not spending hours everyday on the mod, Yes every days, to finally put crappy stuff in it, no sir, you maybe think the V1 is a more appropriate weapon to target precisely units in game? this my friend is "wonderland" and thats why we are taking care of it, yes in Bk, the realism and the quality is always on top of our decisions.

[MarKr]

From my part I am not really much in favor of giving more arty to BK doctrine. You say that once it meets a defenses, the doctrine is blocked and cannot do anything (*cough*assault ability*cough*)...ok, one weakness, but it has strong infantry, strong tanks and even good AA defense. So if it needs to rely on team mates to provide arty support, what is so bad about it?
If you play allies - play infantry doctrine - you can spam infantry, you have arty, you don't have any reliable tanks.
Play AB - still good infantry, instead of arty you have airstrikes (has pros and cons), still no strong tanks
Play Armor doc - lots of tanks, capacity to spam the weaker, you can field the strongest tanks Allies have, weak infantry support, arty only in the form of Calliope and tanks with TCs after unlock (still low range though)
So...allies are still way more dependant on the team play, and you say it is OK, but just because BK doc misses something that can be provided by team mates, it just needs something to fill this weakness? Every Axis doctrine has some weak side - Terror has weaker early game than other doctrines (strenght is in late units which come...later), Def doc lacks defenses as it only has HTs and some TDs but no real tanks...we could find something for every axis doctrine...
So why is it OK for Allies to rely on team to fill in the weak spots but it is not OK for Axis especially if they need to rely on team way less?

[Tor]

Why suply yard its ok for USA and not ok for WH? its super buff, its good late game for all 3 USA doc.
Terror have stuka and panther g for late game, blitz have nothing, tiger suck vs ab or long tom and no artillery.
Why over repair ok for Allies? huge buff to all light vehicles, they always can take 1 shrek, you can rush with that.

[Leonida [525]]

In my opinion instead of arty a "blitz doc" should have a minimum of air support, because it was a part of blitzkrieg. I would put a single air attack good against emplacements, and/or maybe a recon plane, but its just my opinion thrown here

[Commissar]

Now you guys (devs) are playing this game a lot less than we are - old players. You see the game in theory, on paper, while we are see the real situation. Actually axis has no any strong inf untis (with the exception of Reg.5 ) because all of it can be ezly messed up by quad aa half-track. strong tanks ? sure can be ezly smashed by US air bombs.

Please listen to Sukin-Kot. He tells about truly things which are taking place in Bk currently.

PS. Please pzblitz1 don't understand that as i don't respect the devs.

[JimQwilleran]

Actually axis has no any strong inf untis (with the exception of Reg.5 ) because all of it can be ezly messed up by quad aa half-track.

Please listen to Sukin-Kot. He tells about truly things which are taking place in Bk currently.

Ekhm... storms.... ekhm SS.... jeez even regular grens can become unstoppable. Seriously who says that axis inf is weak?

You know, not everybody thinks that sukin's ideas are good. Most of the time he is very biased for his own playing style, just like Tiger.

[Tor]

Yeah grens unstoppable! thats why volks everywhere.

[MarKr]

@Tor: Supply Yard is present for all US factions because they are meant to have more of a spamm-centred gameplay. That means more units of lower quality. Axis infantry gets different types buffs from upgrades and unlocks (Def doc - defensive bonuses in cover + bonuses from command ability; BK - Stormtroopers are better than most other infantry, Terror - unlocks in command tree, zeal etc.; PE in general upgrades of faster capturing, faster vetting up...) US has nothing like that, only weapon upgrades so in term of infantry your way to beat opponent is in numbers and here SY helps. Similar goes for tanks.
"No artillery" don't they have that armored car with rockets? That is artillery...and to be honest why does BK doc need more arty? To deal with defenses? Here is a tip - use abilities! That ability in the lower left corner of command tree:
Tanks and vehicles: weapon cooldown -50% (especially Ostwind has then fire rate of MG42 ); unit speed +50%; weapons reload 25% faster; accuracy -25% (tanks get heavy crush which allows them all to pass through bushes and other obstacles that usually only heavy tanks can crush)
Infantry: 50% slower supression; cooldown on weapons -25%
Not enough? What about the StuGIII "assault" ability?
grenadiers and Stormtroopers around will get:
-75% lower suppression
-30% received damage
If you use this, your infantry can simply run to AT guns/emplacements, blow them up with grenades etc., retreat and tanks will roll over...or another crazy idea - use your mortar team and for free spray the emplacement with smoke...AT won't hit any tank reliably (well, tanks won't hit it either) but MGs in smoke have almost no supression so you can again just run in with infantry and take it down...
So I think that BK actually has ways to deal with defenses but it is not arty, it is the attack abilities.

Now I guess at least someone will say "why do I need to use these abilities when others have arty?" well, you don't NEED to use them - ask team to give fire support, but don't tell me that BK has no way to break through defenses.

tiger suck vs ab or long tom

So...is that a problem? Everything needs to have some counter in the game otherwise one uncouterable unit means certain win. I am not sure what you mean by "AB"? If it is airstrikes then all tanks are susseptible to that.

Why over repair ok for Allies? huge buff to all light vehicles, they always can take 1 shrek, you can rush with that.

Such a huge problem for WH AT teams who have two schrecks and for some reason 25% accuracy buff...PE has one Schreck but infantry has AT grenades...in general WH infantry has more AT options than allied infantry so I guess that Overrepai is available to allies to compensate for that.

Now you guys (devs) are playing this game a lot less than we are - old players. You see the game in theory, on paper, while we are see the real situation.

We get this argument a lot "you don't play, you don't understand; we play, we understand"...yet the fact that we don't play let's us see the game from a perspective that players don't have.
In general if someone has a playstyle and suddenly it doesn't work against something the USUAL (I'm not saying this is the case every time) reaction is "OMG this is OP, it needs a nerf/this doc needs a buff". But we see the options that are there but nobody uses them. Not because the options are useless but simply because nobody learned to use them.
In recent time few players wrote on the forum how surprised they were with effectiveness of smoke...well smoke has been in the game for ages and only now people realize it has some use? Really - how often do you use smoke shells from mortars? Hit an MG with a smoke and you can move your infantry around it without getting supressed, then flank and kill it. AT gun? then same thing when in smoke it has hard time hitting anything. Have you ever used those two assault abilities I spoke about above? People are stuck in their ways of thinking which at the moment is "defenses? I need arty to destroy that" and if you ask them "have you tried other ways?" the answer is usually "lol, there are none"...but there are.