4.9.6 Beta

[Commissar]

Actually axis has no any strong inf untis (with the exception of Reg.5 ) because all of it can be ezly messed up by quad aa half-track.

Please listen to Sukin-Kot. He tells about truly things which are taking place in Bk currently.

Ekhm... storms.... ekhm SS.... jeez even regular grens can become unstoppable. Seriously who says that axis inf is weak?

You know, not everybody thinks that sukin's ideas are good. Most of the time he is very biased for his own playing style, just like Tiger.

Dude, i said storms.... ekhm SS could be ezly messed up by quad aa half-track. Do you read between the lines?

[sgtToni95]

Maybe try to kill m16 ht with units which are not inf squads

[Commissar]

Good player wont allow this to happen in early game. much depends on the start of the game. almost all - the defeat or victory

Good player wont allow this to happen in early game. much depends on the start of the game. almost all - the defeat or victory

ok, but in future. u have a good range of vision ( spotter) and u can see the unit which can counter a quad aa ht. u can use it in defence like a good maneuver anti inf unit. like puma. (puma worse ofc)

***STOP DOUBLE POSTING PLZ, edit your first post.

[Panzerblitz1]

im not mad, but again you triple post here

[MarKr]

And this is another thing connected to my post above - Sukin complained lately several times about M16 and the othe Haftack with 57mm gun.
Problem with M16 baing that it "kills infantry too effectively even while moving" and AT HT's problem being big range...so there are two units that make it harder for Axis players and they need nerf? How exactely do you want to terf them and not make them useless? M16 got nerfs while moving (fires less bullets per burst and has longer delay between bursts)...still not enough? So what should we do? Make it unable to shoot while moving? What about the Axis puma thing with 20mm cannon and MG on the turret? it can fire while moving, it decimates infantry, the cannon is somewhat effective against vehicles too and all of that even while moving...allied players learned to play against it and for Axis something similar is such a huge obstacle?
57mm HT...how would you nerf it? Sukin said it should have same range as Axis AT HTs...well those have 75mm guns which can take out medium tanks without trouble, 57mm guns are not reliable even against PIV F2 (that version that almost nobody uses and has no skirts) and vehicles such as HTs usually don't get one-shotted either so the only advantage it has is the range. Also in my experience at the maximum range it usually misses 2 out of three 3 shots so to make it more effective you need to come closer anyway.

[Tor]

57 good vs F2, and E, quad 50 much better than puma vs infantry (4.9.5) not tested in 4.9.6.

[MarKr]

Accuracy of 57mm HT against F2 at max range is 61%; penetration at max range is 26%, damage is 250-450 (F2 HP is 636)...so alltogether you have 60% chance to hit it (which is definately not considered reliable hit), IF you hit it, there is only 25% chance to penetrate (which is downright weak) and even if you manage to penetrate the damage and even the criticals are distibuted in such a way that you are way more likely to destroy engine than one shot it.
Against E...well maybe, those have weak armor...those are comparable to allied light tanks rather than medium tanks.

And saying that " quad 50 much better than puma vs infantry" doesn't answer my question - how would you balance it without making it useless?

[Leonida [525]]

I always thought blitz doc has something wrong. Its quite always better terror but some particular cases (very high ammo to fully upgrade stoss and to use blitz ability or stoss assaults/abilities but low fuel for support group. I mean, best arty? ---> Terror, Best Inf ----> Well, i prefer grenadiers with free equipment and flame nades, so Terror for quality/cost, best tanks? ---> Terror.
A useful thing Blitz has while terr doesnt its AA (ostwind in general). I am not saying pz ivs are bad but they can be easily taken out, and if theres fuel terror late tanks are simply better. @Markr those abilities and units u mentioned to go against emplacements, yes, are there, but i think there is a big difference from saying "they are there! use it!" and a real match, because in that case u need a lot of CP, not to mention tons of resources only to try to do it..Blitz ability requires 5 CP, and tanks?.. i mean, yes, but its difficoult, a match is not static and its quite impossible if there s arty against u.
Regarding the Tiger, i like the idea of Sukin to remove it from blitz, and moreover i would not put it in TH, i would simply remove it, so no more early heavy tank, but Tank commanders moved in the panzer factory.
And i like the idea of walking stuka in late game, OR a stuka bomb that can be called only against emplacements. (for example)
And a panther Ace Command tank instead of tiger Ace. PS. I am not saying units of blitz doc sucks but i would like to have a more mechanized-medium tanks-fast units doc..

[sgtToni95]

@Commissar you're still saying "a good player won't allow you to do it" so the problems you're mentioning don't come from unbalanced units but on how you use them.
@Leonida you're only asking for easier ways to take out emps, not to have any cause you know you already have as it's been said many times. If you used smoke you wouldn't even need assault ability to take out emps.
An example (and big thanks to Kwok): i've been playing against a couple of players who just spammed mg bunkers all over the frontline, my mate was arty doc and trying to take them out with arty doing such little damage while i was using 2 inch to smoke on bunkers and take them down with 2-3 demo charges each. So those were BUNKERS (waaaaay more resistant than allies mg nests) and i didn't have any assault ability nor Big lethal bomb from above to take them down with 1 click.
@Leonida "dear Santa i'd like some priests and SP in raf doc too"

[JimQwilleran]

Imo, it's good that devs dont play. They are more objective.
I don't really get that crying about blitz doc being weak. Veted storms are unkillable in normal combat, tiger tank has long range shot that allows u to snipe shit, stuh is a small brother of stupa, maultier has a big flame barrage, demolition squad with bundle grenades, ostwind can really be pain in the ass (if u dont rush with it like an idiot)
But no, bk doc sucks....

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

What is my playstyle? Just curious, since I play both factions ( actually more often allies than axis ) and all docs.

I never said that bk doc sucks, you clearly misunderstood that, it just can be easily blocked ( if you know how ). Docs which really suck are TH and Luft ( besides crazy reg.5).

[Commissar]

[quote="JimQwilleran"] Imo, it's good that devs dont play. They are more objective.

WTF xD ahahahahahahahahhaahha

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

[quote="JimQwilleran"]Imo, it's good that devs dont play. They are more objective.
/quote]
You must be kidding, its like saying that watching media chanels make you more objective about political stuff going on.

But if you think that germans are good and bla bla bla, im fine with that, let it be so, I can play allies any day.

[MarKr]

@Markr those abilities and units u mentioned to go against emplacements, yes, are there, but i think there is a big difference from saying "they are there! use it!" and a real match, because in that case u need a lot of CP, not to mention tons of resources only to try to do it..Blitz ability requires 5 CP, and tanks?.. i mean, yes, but its difficoult, a match is not static and its quite impossible if there s arty against u.

Unlocking arty will cost you CP too, building the arty units will cost you resources too, shooting the arty costs ammo too.
And you say "i mean, yes, but its difficoult", so you want an easy way...I am affraid that won't happen. Each doctrine should have some strengths and weaknesses. Weakness of BK doc is lack of arty. What else would be weakness of this doctrine if it gets artillery too?

You must be kidding, its like saying that watching media chanels make you more objective about political stuff going on.

And being member of a political party will help to a person see objectively the political mess? Isn't it more likely that the person will defend his party's interests no matter how right the opposition might be?

[heinrich_fritz13]

hi. everyone.. can you make the "Grille'' to automatically shoots at any enemy nearby? just like the LeiG. coz it's weird having it doing nothing but waiting for you to order it's 75 munitions cost ''One-shot'' arty round. or rather make it shoot many times when we use it's arty fire.

[MarKr]

Hi heinrich, the thing with Grille is that it is an artillery unit (similarly to Hummel, Wespe, 105 Sherman etc.) and in BK artillery units do not fire directly at targets, they are there only for indirect fire support. The direct shot ability a special feature of Grille.
Also Grille is special in the way that it fires only one shot but the shot is very accurate - other arty units usually fire more shots and hit randomly the target area. So Grille is a bit special arty unit.

[heinrich_fritz13]

i wish you can put arty trails in it's shot to efficiently portrays it's special artyness.. like the AVRE and Sturmtiger

[Warhawks97]

The BK doc got discussed many many times in pasty ears and how the doc shall look like. But in short it can be literally everything as the word "Blitzkrieg" implements all elements of the german army. In fact, even the Tiger design is a result of that idea. Just it came when the "Blitzkrieg era" was over.

So you could give it arty, airplanes (stuka in particular), all kinds of tanks except TH´s, fallschirmjäger and other special assault forces.
So there were ideas arround to even change its name and rename it into "breakthrough doctrine" or "assault doc" or "mechanized doc" etc etc etc.

The name of the doc makes it complicate to give it a specific design. We could say that we give it units on which the Blitzkrieg success was based but well... We would have Tank IV´s in several types, stugs, suka planes, even more arty and still good armor.


@markr: what exactly defines arty? Costs per shot? Range (out of enemie defense fire range)? indirect shooting? For me stuh and stupa are simply arty as well, just no indirect arty.


@objectivness: It can never be achieved to 100%. But in this case its not bad to have active players and non active players in the discussion. Sometimes, when you have endless discussions about a certain matter with peoples all being somehow experts it can be quite helpfull to get the most simple argument or opinion that comes from a person that never even thought about this specific matter. its like the german saying "all said its impossible. Then someone came who didnt know that and simply did it" (he did the "impossible" because he didnt know it is "impossible").


@sukin: I once told you that you have a very specific gameplay. A certain sukin style... almost like a formular that sometimes made me thinking that you have a "to do list" next to your desktop that says when to do what. And with terror doc i even once told you that you somehow found out the "perfect" way" to win. Your AB style was quite similiar to the terror style. Just you relied more on arty mates there instead on own walking stukas and instead of panther as finisher force you used the AB bomber patrole combined with large assault of 101st´s squads. The Back up was hellcat for AB, 50 mm (+ simple shreks) for terror.


So if i would point my finger on someone with a pretty well "plan to play" then its you. Same goes for shadow (but only when he plays with RAF).

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

@sukin: I once told you that you have a very specific gameplay. A certain sukin style... almost like a formular that sometimes made me thinking that you have a "to do list" next to your desktop that says when to do what. And with terror doc i even once told you that you somehow found out the "perfect" way" to win. Your AB style was quite similiar to the terror style. Just you relied more on arty mates there instead on own walking stukas and instead of panther as finisher force you used the AB bomber patrole combined with large assault of 101st´s squads. The Back up was hellcat for AB, 50 mm (+ simple shreks) for terror.


So if i would point my finger on someone with a pretty well "plan to play" then its you. Same goes for shadow (but only when he plays with RAF).

Maybe you are right, but it doesn't mean that I'm biased towards a certain faction or doctrine.

[JimQwilleran]

I never said that bk doc sucks, you clearly misunderstood that, it just can be easily blocked

It was a general statement, not only about you.

Maybe you are right, but it doesn't mean that I'm biased towards a certain faction or doctrine.

Of course it does, you are biased towards your "plan" and it can be seen in almost all of your suggestions.

WTF xD ahahahahahahahahhaahha

Seriously, what's so funny? Did I laugh at you when you said that Panzer III is going to be useless? Maybe you Russians have a bit impaired sense of "objectiveness", it's hard to find it in your country.

[Jalis]

Maybe you Russians have a bit impaired sense of "objectiveness", it's hard to find it in your country.

Not sure it is your wisest attack.

a little picture to change this harmfull atmosphere ? an attempt to recreate Panzerblitz Sturm in action s movie.

[JimQwilleran]

Not sure it is your wisest attack.

You are right. Sorry for that.

Spoiler: show

Abbc3 Offtopic

JimQwilleran used stupid insult!

It's not very effective!

JimQwilleran is confused!

Personally I like all changes done by this beta patch. Sturmtiger is a really nice new addition, and makes sense only in terror doc. Aim time for handeld AT is briliant! It makes stupid rushing less effective. I also like the new fog system very much, but I guess it's not very popular. I seriously think that devs are objective and making the game more balanced, although I am being laughed at because of that...

[Jalis]

I cant give opinion about balance. I m not enough aware about pvp. My opinion is sturmtiger have not been introduced to rebalance something, but to enhance realism and historical accuracy. V1 was simply an old Vcoh remnant and there was not 1000 solutions to replace it.

However now people see something new, everybaody have an idea where it would fit better... forgetting what was the sturmtiger primary role in the patch ; a subtitute to the V1.

A least, it is my opinion / analysis.

[Viper]

looks like big discussion going on here.

57mm HT...how would you nerf it? Sukin said it should have same range as Axis AT HTs...well those have 75mm guns which can take out medium tanks without trouble

i am afraid this is not correct. the 75 can't deal with jumbo. can't deal with churchill. which are early_mid game allied tanks.

both 57 and 75 should have 65 default range. and +5 when ambushed. in my humble opinion.

i am strongly agreed with sukin about sturmtiger. makes no sense in terror. blitz doc needs it. as reward for tiger ace maybe.

You know, not everybody thinks that sukin's ideas are good. Most of the time he is very biased for his own playing style, just like Tiger.

this is not a shame i think. anyone can be like this. including yourself. and everybody else. including myself too. although i don't play much anyway.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Maybe you are right, but it doesn't mean that I'm biased towards a certain faction or doctrine.
Of course it does, you are biased towards your "plan" and it can be seen in almost all of your suggestions.

So, what exactly is biased about my balance suggestions?
- you dont agree that terror is the most played axis doc?
- you dont agree that Allies are dominating in Tier 2 vehicle stage? Which vehicles you usually see with vet.3, and which vehicles are reliable even in very late stage? Recce and Quad Cal almost each game with high kill count, axis - besides PE mortar halftruck nothing, few times I have seen super lucky Puma with really high kill score. Quad and 57mm truck are absolutely the best vehicles on its tier, one is the ultimate inf shredder, other is vehicle hunter, both are cheap and its extremely easy to pay off their price, as PE you basically get blocked as soon as these vehicles hit the field and the only way to counter them is Pak 38, especially with new aim timer for handled AT weapons its gonna be really tough for axis, since they rely on their schrecks way more than allies on zooks ( brits dont have any, Armor barely uses them, AB can drop At guns wherever they please, Hellcat + Airstrikes which are more or less guaranted kill of a heavy tank, inf doc will suffer though )
- you dont agree that allies have more resourses?

Just...what will be the point of axis after update? What are their pros? They have res disadvantage, all non doc vehicles are worse than allied once, support abiltites are worse ( AB, Raf, Inf have very good click to kills while axis off map abilities are meh..). Even more camping arround waiting for Terror panthers and Stuka\Sturmtiger hoping that they will rock? Thats gonna be boring.

Axis need better units mix in some docs and price drop for a lot of stuff.