Holly shit.
Yes, the 210 is easily killed by RA. But why would i get one in late game.
But still, when i fought double RA at halfaya against bears and his mate i just did need one Hummel and 210 nebler to beat both RA players+ RE players defense. My vet Hummel always instant oneshoted a priest right with the first shot.
To summarize some facts:
- The 210 nebler might be easily killed be enemie arty, but still its one of the best "Anti tank arty". That term got not used by me but by someone else. I love the 210 nebler for several reasons, especially against inf and RE doc and enemie spawns. It can destroy in a single hit. note pls that i use the vertical fire option. (I dont know but somehow the weapon seem to have better performence then splash, AoE.. idk, just use vertical fire).
- The 150 Arty has more damage. There is nothing to argue about. The 150 mm shells are dealing a way more damage. The max possible basic damage is almost twice as high as the 105 shells (335 damage 105mm, 400-600 Hummel 150 mm). They serve different purposes. The Priest pays 50 ammo for a salvo and thats the standard 105 mm barrage cost. Sure, the 105 shells can deal well with unarmored SPGS such as Marders and Wespe/hummel. But Wespe can do the same. But the 150 mm shells are simply more deadly to tanks and emplacments. They have the chance that the first hit kills the unit. Usually a sherman or any other tank is dead by first 150 shell or having like 10 HP left. The 105 do need to hit a medium tank two times, maybe three times. The Priest has simply a good accuracy but Wespe and Hummel become also deadly with vet.
- The Hummel got
never used when Wespe was in a different tec tree. In fact the sector arty and Hummel tec tree was the last of all that got unlocked by players. Today the Hummel is
by far more often used. Kind of "Wespe replacment" in late game. Many people going in longer lasting games for Hummel. Personally i used the Hummels more often in 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 as i used the Wespe. The Wespe is my choice on small 2 vs 2 maps, the Hummel for teamfights preferable as it is more likely do face lots of different combination of enemie forces like emplacments, tanks, arty. In That case i always get Hummel over Wespe.
- SE is atm the best PE doc. We have talked about issues of luft doc, lacking offensive power of TH doc etc. But the SE doc is the best doc PE has. You get a TH that is super deadly from ambush against every allied tank. The Arty is powerfull, flame nades, res trade and sabotage.
But its interesting. Why are there so many complains about SE, BK, Terror doc? I mean those three are most played one i guess. All three belong to the "standard axis equipment" in games. They are very versatile and have lots of powerfull units. Panther G, storms, Walking stuka, 210 nebler, hummel wespe, Nashorn, generally good inf, flame grenades etc etc.... Basically axis could always only play with those three docs. The other three docs have nothing really that is urgently needed and only provided by those.
To be honest i would rather focus on PE in general and how to make it a more offensive and aggressive faction which shows up flexibility during these assaults. But i would play with the minds of Panther G for TH doc instead of nashorn and reduced PE inf starting squad size in exchange for lower squad build cost.
but certain units like Panther, wespe/hummel, grens, storms, walking stuka, Ostwind are simply the most used axis units or lets say most important one which all showing good results and turning games, winning games. And when units do belong to the core of a faction which often enough decide games then idk why these units suddenly need to be even more buffed while there are lots of others i could understand to discuss about.
As for hummel i can just repeat. Once there was a discussion to reduce its build cost to make it more appealing. But the actual mistake was not the Hummel, it was the wrong tec tree set up over cost efficency of wespe. Today Hummels are quite frequently used, deadly and a nice support for the axis team which pulverizes simply everything so quickly. I would even say that Hummel became just as important as the Wespe.
I would say that this topic has lost its purpose. Currently SE already belongs to the top 3 axis docs together with terror and BK which is providing a hell lot for the team and not just arty.
Edit: Oh, Tiger: yes, brits can put some trucks on points. But there are maps which do not provide large ammo points. The smaller the map and the more the fuel and ammo income relys on single points the greater the advantage of CW truck and res upgrade. The larger the map and the more fuel/ammo income relys on many small and medium points the greater the advantage of observation points and Logistic vehicles.
So congratulations, you failed (again) to take map characteristics into acc which may decide either "ability x" or "y" is better.
Sure, when you put a truck on a large ammo point then the cost efficency of the upgrade is incredible. If you then have a map with just 10 points of which 6 are large res ponts then the truck system is very effective. But when you get lots of small points spread over the map then logistic vehicles and observation points get an advantage. Especially then the logistic cars can be helpfull as they can defend an area from being quickly taken by a single infantry squad. Meanwhile the three trucks can be put on just three points. For more income you will rely on Mates.
So stop making such confusing statments, attempting to "generalize" stuff in the way you like. You have to take a lot more things into acc.
Kasbah wrote:the point is making the ammo half track a little bit worth because now it only reduces the arty cost by 15 if I'm not wrong, and this is really nothing
Thing on Long term. I use it right when i get it. In case your only job in a game is to fiel only arty and to provide that support for everyone then it can be damn effective. MP isnt much an issue as long as you dont have to replace frontline units (which shouldnt be the case when mates do the fight). And when you spare all 1 or two mins 15 ammo than its quite a lot.
I mean when it would save more than 15 ammo then you could fire 105 for like 30 ammo and 150 for 80. Remember that the old arty barrage costs had been 35 for 105 and 85 for 150 and 35 for nebler 150 and so on. The old devs received sooo many complains of arty spam (which was truly a factor that killed the fun) that they decided to go up to the costs we do see today. If the HT would save more than 15 then you would get even lower barrage costs as the pre-change cost had been. You would 105 for the cost of Handgrenades. Back in days such cost led to the use of arty against single soldiers and recons even. I dont even want to imagine what further cost would do. The cost of arty units in old versions had been even lower (720 Mp wespe, 580/100 Hummel, 400/50 naked howitzer).
So from that point it scales on long term very effectively.
@Sukin: Butter was regarding to "no fuel cost for priest" when he said "like Hummel". Hummel doesnt cost fuel "like Priest". Otherwise he would have used the word "unlike"
I admit that it was a bit confusing as he used "like" in the second part of the sentence. But when i read it twice ive got it correctly.
Basically all three upgrade ammo. Priest for incendiary rounds, Wespe/Hummel for the long shots.
Edit: I tried to figure out some stuff from corsix and this is how it seems. But dont pin me down on that:
Hummel/Wespe/Priest barrage: 200 range
Hummel Fern/Priest super charge: 250 range
Hummel Fes: 275 Range.
Stationary 105 mm howitzer: 225 (axis with fern 250)
105 sherman: 180
(88 barrage: 200 range and 35 ammo)
Nebelwerfer: 200
Calliope: 150
Walking Stuka: 175
95 mm howitzer (churchill, cromwell): 120 range
If anyone would have to complain about then it would be the 105 sherman lol. Its the most expensive one of its class although being the worst of all.
Reload times:
Hummel:10 sec reload. In stat mode 5 seconds.
Wespe: 7-8 sec
Priest: 6 sec
US howitzer: 7 sec
Axis howitzer: 7-8 sec
105 sherman: 7,5-8,5 sec
Hummel special:
reduced received accuracy while in stat mode: 0.75 received accuracy modifier.
I havent checked accuracy yet (learning it how and where to check for arty) but the 105 sherman is well known for being the worst of all.
So yeah.... That the 105 sherman is by far most expensive of all (650, 80) and meanwhile worst in every aspect is no problem. But its funny, when i am thinking back then i see that the 105 sherman literally disappeared from the game and inf doc using more often rangers, normal howitzers and 107 mortars. In its set up (kind as closer ranged arty support similiar as 95 churchill) the 105 would fit so well in armor doc.
The most commonly seen mobile howitzers: Wespe, Hummel/Priest/95 mm cromwell, 95 mm churchill/Grille, 105 sherman. Since the 75 pack howitzer became cheaper the 105 sherman is atm the most rarely used howitzer (and arty unit at all).
I figured out that it was planned to add the Priest to US without CW arty abilities and instead only with normal barrage, smoke salvo and that self repair thing which allied tanks have.
So when it comes down to artillery units on the field then US is by far the worst (accuracy, range, cost, ammount).
Edit II: Ups, i found something that many probably wont belive and hate.
Allis arty deal just 75% of its normal damage against axis tanks. So instead of the 335 damage the allied arty deals 251 damage against an axis tanks. That means that axis tanks need to be at least three times before they are being destroyed. Only Priest can do that.
Axis arty deals full damage against allied tanks. So axis 105 needs to hit just twice directly to kill a allied tank. The Hummel blows them up almost instantly with one hit and thats what i experienced very often.
So to subsumme it:
The allied have one really arty unit that effectively kill tanks: Priest. Other arty is long tom (and maybe off map 105 but usually not killing max HP tanks)
The Axis arty units are pretty deadly against vehicles and tanks. Wespe, Hummel, 105 howitzer, walking stuka (if not bugged), 210 nebler. They all two and oneshot tanks.
