Hummel's static location

[Viper]

the description of this stationary position ability says that it increases the rate of fire , the accuracy and the range too... but actually it doesn't increase the range anymore! it used to be doing so on the original COH.
-i think that the range should generally increase by 30% for any kind of barrage shells used.. the static ability cool down time may be longer in a result.

i know that the new shells upgrade will be higher in range as it will have the same range of the the priest after the RA doc unlock then... but this is still not enough because the priest has cheaper barrages and more accurate and good rate of fire all by default , also with some other freaking deadly abilities.
plz don't tell me that the ammunition truck is providing cheaper barrages... only -10 ammo? REALLY?? even though.. the priest still has much cheaper barrages and is much earlier available!!!
-So... here i request higher reductions when the trucks are nearby. just 10 ammo less for each barrage is a joke in my opinion....

-and btw why the Wh ammunition truck never does any barrage reductions at least for the nebels on the other hand exactly like how it is on the afrika add on for example?? it can't deploy goliath even.

[Warhawks97]

The Hummels stat mode is pure voch stuff. It just increases the rof by a lot. That can be helpfull as the opponent might not be able to get the units away before the second shell strikes in. The 150 mm rounds have very high blast radius and oneshot pretty much everything which 105 shells do not. it also reduces the received accuracy if i am correct ( a weird thing i talked about in a topic).

The accuracy depends on vet. Vet 2-4 and your Hummel will hit and kill the target most likely with first hit.

The ammo reduction is 15 if i am right. From 100 to 85 per salvo.


RA is also a pure arty doc. What it does is arty and to a certain extend defensive duties. Offense is almost impossible with units.
SE has more versatility. Two years ago we talked about that in old forum when a guy wanted same marking target ability and special arty spotters as RA has. Most disagreed and said that SE is a lot more than arty. The inf is decent in offense and defense and quite versatil. Despite missing AA options SE is my favoured doctrine to fight RAF infantry. When you go for flame nades, Hauptsturmführer and TD´s like hetzer or nashorn you can play SE is a nice infantry doctrine against several allied docs. Booby traps, sabotage, flame nades with res trade and sector arty can be very effective without even using a single arty unit.

but in case you really really need big fat arty you can stay patience, getting 4 spgs and use VT. Its the most brutal VT ability in thise game probably. But most of the time a single hummel is quite sufficient in arty support.


Why should WH ammo truck reduce shooting cost for nebler? oO. I mean goliath make sense since PE ammo HT also lays them down.

[Viper]

the ammunition trucks are almost literally useless.... they need some buff.
as i said , -10 ammo or even -15 ammo is still a joke compared to the priest cheap salvos and early availability!
i would disagree saying that the priest shells are weaker than the hummel ones.. the priest can only 5 hit a king tiger so easily with such very good accuracy.
justifying that the priest have to be stronger than the hummel which is contradicting the reality... just because RA is only arty focused doctrine is a pure realism breaking.. i guess a balance breaking too.

a priest can snipe a hummel from distance with the help of spotters , hummel needs to get closer because it doesn't have similar abilities!! why??

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

I dont agree that RA have poor offensive capabilities, inf sections are good itself... one of the best inf in game actually, with 2 brens they butch reg.5 without problems. Wide amount of vehicles with 17 pounders + all kinds of fortifications + recon plane + always an edge over reconsistance, since you can drop spotters right at the front line + imidiate deadly arty support following up your atack. Back in the days when i played RA a lot, i used to use it very agressivly, even without priests sometimes (mostly in 2v2). Not to mention that 75mm Autocar is the best arty unit in early-middle stage: extremly mobile, cheap, can protect itself against light Vehicles and Infantry and, the most important, arty barrage cost only 25 muni, at the same time nebel cost 50, but far less deadly.

[Warhawks97]

I didnt say the Priest must be stronger than Hummel (and it isnt actually).

I do always use the ammo HT with hummel (never shooting without) and i keep them alive. On long term you save a lot of ammo that way.

And what contradiction do you mean? Do you know what the real contradiction to reality is here? That axis have more SPG´s than allied (3 vs 5). Its a contradiction that the Priest was almost only used by US but in game only CW have it while those used actually Saxtons and not Priets.

Its a contradiction that a single axis doc can possibly get out 4 SPG´s and allied max two in their heaviest arty focused doc (i cant even say which axis doc is arty focused, all have lots of it).

So pls, dont even start talking about "contradiction to reality" in terms of arty. When the US forces had been the only army in WW2 and as first army at all a 100% mechanized artillery while in game they have just a single 105 sherman. Everything else is even stationary or only handpulled and pushed.

And i dont consider it anyhow as balance issue. Here you need to keep in mind that Hummels have quite often only the job to counter arty while terror and def doc can provide arty to crack defenses. The RA job is quite often killing defenses and countering arty.

Make Hummels shooting as cheap as priests and add all things from RA to SE doc and vise versa. I´d like to see the comments when RA doc would have also sabotage squads and TD´s that easily oneshot every axis tank with almost guranteed penetration from large range such as nashorn.



But back to topic. SE is my fav doc as PE (although starting to enjoy TH doc more and more as well) and i never really considered balance issues in that doc. It depends on the players skill whether SE or arty doc wins the arty fight but also how the team is doing in the offense. I had very high scores with Priests and Hummels with more than 15 tank kills and 150 in kills. Its possible with both.


Generally i wouldnt mind moving Priest to a US doc without all the abilties it has currently in RA doc and the range and adding for brits the Saxton as SPG with 25 pdr (87,6 mm) instead of 105 mm arty.

[kwok]

Warhawks laying down the hammer with facts, lol.

I think you're spot on with almost everything but just agreeing with sukin. RA doc isn't all defensive. It's just a really really slow and boring offense. Like the rest of brits. Really boring (to me). Only RAF has SOME saving graces but even still I pref AB.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Agreed with Sukin too... What Seha said is also pretty much correct!
The Priest should be no match to the Hummel.. the Hummel is supposed to be in the highest tier of all arty units. However that somehow the Priest currently is on the top by far... Even without the spotters I would prefer the Priest over the Hummel any day.
Too early available.. cheap deadly salvos... Later more range after the unlock besides the great accuracy it has with such a high rate of fire! It often makes me feel that it's actually carrying a 155mm gun and not just a 105 one.

The Hummel could be as good in terms of range only after the new rounds upgrade but still.. exactly as Seha mentioned... too expensive EVEN by the ammunition trucks!!! Yet lacking such spotters and therefore lacking these deadly kind of abilities as well.
And so.. with those abilities the Priest is capable of sniping every target quickly enough while having a much higher range than all the other arty pieces.. very precisely and also without paying too much.

It's surprising after all to see that it says that the range will be increased while it doesn't; I believe that's why the guy has chosen to post it on the 'bugs' section, if not mistakenly I would assume... Very good points from him.

[Warhawks97]

Then pls i vote for quality/ quantity balance.

Axis have currently early available cheap mobile inf in all docs. Often even mechanized.
Axis have VT´s in every doc except BK and TH doc with much higher activation radius.

Does anyone has fucking realized how many VT options with what huge range axis do have?! You have problem with 85 ammo for a salvo? Nice, use the Tank IV and hauptsturmführer to activate Hummel and it cost 75 ammo with endless range.

You cant give axis a much higher ammount of mobile (mechanized) in all docs+ giving them the two very best artillery units. Then you would have to do the quantity balance as well.

I once again have to remember that SE has afterall stuff like sabotage and flame nades and the basic inf. CW basic inf is not good in assaulting and more being put in some cover and shooting from distance.


Here a suggestion for the arty balance to be, in order to avoid "contradiction with reality" as seha mentioned:

US will be again all about mobility. CW about massed used arty and Axis a mix of big assault rocket launchers and few big arty pieces.


US would lose their 105 static howitzers entirely. Thats in order to reflect the US flexibility of their arty. Unlike in reality the howitzers here cant be attached to trucks and stuff.

Inf doc:
3 x 75 mm arty HT that CW arty doc has atm
2-3x 105 mm Priest Howitzer (only with standard and smoke barrage) instead of 105 sherman
Also most effective VT (US did create that "VT" as they reworked the artillery commanding tree in ww2 to use more concentrated fire. More details can be provided by a internet page if wished)
Current off maps.
Static howitzers removed

Armor doc:
2x 105 sherman and 1x calli sherman
Off map TC strike.

AB doc:
2x calli jeep and The 75 mm pack howitzer

CW:
All:
25 pdr (as a core unit of CW and without limit)

Arty doc:
Abilities for their arty units (range, marked targets etc etc)
3x Sexton SPG with 25 pdr
Officer and spotter of maps etc etc.
114 mm area barrage
95 mm cromwell
75 mm HT removed (now in inf doc)
VT

RE:
95 mm Churchill

RAF:
95 mm Cromwell

Axis:
Terror:
V1 replaced by a 170 mm arty strike
Firestorm
2x Nebler
2x Walking Stuka


BK:
2x Maultier

Def:
1xGrille
88 guns (endless)
105 howitzer lefh 18/40M (no limit)
VT


TH:
Hotchkiss

SE:
1-2 x Hummel
2 x Wespe
210 Nebler
VT

Luft:
88 guns
VT

All axis rocket launchers:
Fire squency increased (the barrage would be fired quickly) and slightly shorter range.



That way each faction would be pretty realistically reflected being also very specific.
CW would be very limited with heavier arty (only one 114 mm area barrage). Therefore their offensives would be more "nonstop" supported by light arty (25 pdr is just 87,6 mm).

US would be only flexible, mostly spgs and few mechanized rocket launcher area cleaining assault units. They wouldnt have a single stationary howitzer and thus relying a lot of fuel. In their calibre varying between very light (75 mm) and heavvy/medium arty (105 mm). the heavy punishing defense cracking arty would be limited to off maps.

The axis would have a mix of heavy punishing arty and lots of assault rocketlaunchers. A 170 mm howitzer off map strike and as only faction fielding 150 mm artillery unit and 200-300 mm rocket launchers.




Does that look better? No? Hmm, it gives a quite historical picture of the artillery in ww2, doesnt it?



And if anyone comes here with "axis had best arty" than its not true. Their arty was either too heavy due to the "bigger is better complex" axis had (40-60 tons) with limited transporting options. Often horse drawn and "old fashioned" commanding tree or their main arty heavy arty (sfh 18) got outranged by allied counterparts by far (long tom, russian ML-20 and others).

The US did have the most modern arty pieces (often came just in time for the war) and in 42 all arty units had been fully mechanized. They combined low weight and flexibility with calibre size and weight. Axis had either light but short ranged arty, sometimes pieces from ww1 (in early war stage) or too much weight. Their best guns outranged every allied gun by far but did weight more than twice (even three times) as much as an allied gun.




So yeah, you cant give axis more arty, more flexible, more heavy and then also the best arty of all arty pieces at the same time.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Hate to see how ur great ideas are in fact all centered to be about nothing but a complete reworking of stuff which is more likely never gonna happen specifically since u don't have any models for the Saxton! So u really need to stop dreaming.. just don't go that far...

The guy simply asked only for some certain fair points, as he mainly asked for more effective or useful ammunition trucks as well as a slightly range increase for the Hummels when the stationary mode is activated as it's already mentioned in the ability description. Of which I find as acceptable few demands!!

[Warhawks97]

Would be easier to remove that static mode vcoh remnant.

I mean, lmao, a 150 mm arty unit as fastest howitzer? this is the real joke here. Remove the ability and ammo HT could make the barrage 20 points cheaper. BUT, the big fat fucked BUT. Keep in mind that the Wespes would fire for 30 ammo each time! A Nonstop arty party with wespes, especially with res trade (something you completely forgot about i think).

Also the 150 standard damage alone is much higher as of any other howitzer, though for some reasons it does vary from 400-600 damage which is unusual for howitzers and arty.

That thing is pretty much oneshoting everything with a direct hit. Maybe the area effect could be tweaked a bit and the damage less varying.


But thing is that this makes me thinking the Hummel is worthless piece of shit which it isnt. Sure its not always the best choice, especially when enemie uses more soft targets etc. But when i play against Inf doc (re emplacment spammer) and when i need to counter arty (eg priests) then i simply fucking love the Hummel. Coz its so deadly against everything.
The Wespe and ligther arty wastes sometimes more ammo as they dont fully destroy emplacments which thus get repaired. So at the end it doesnt makes much difference whether to fire Wespe twice to kill an emplacment (for example RE one) or to get out the big fat ass hammer making one quick salvo for 85-100 ammo and killing the emplacments at once.

So you cant generalize arty and howitzers. I mean even in reality 105 and 150 had been considered as different and for different purpose. 105 was considered as medium arty while 150 as heavy arty. And so we should do in game! We should not even compare those two directly with each other but thats what you try to do.


But some people seem to be unable to see that. They dont even try to. They dont even want to. They do see that one unit can do something the other cant and run for, complaining disbalance. But they completely oversee the advantages of the expected "inferoior" over the expected "superior one"
If you shoot for example with 150 nebler, 105 wespe/Priest and howitzers against buffed DEF/RE doc emplacments which get repaired after each salvo then you basically waste endless ammount of ammo. That way a single 210 nebler, 150 mm Hummel salvo or 155 mm inf doc long tom off map are suddenly much cheaper and cost effective as the "cheaper" 105 guns.

Damn... when you play against a mix of inf, RE and others then i just love the Hummel. You actually have to go for hummel as the damageoutput of wespe can be way too low to knock out the slow moving RE tank formations, Inf emplacments and other stuff.

Most emplacments do survive barrages of lower vet 105 arty. But a 150 needs a hit to more or less kill an emplacment entirely.


But keep going, think straight, dont look left and right. Go and see only that what you want to see. But when even the real militaries in ww2 did see the advantages of 150 mm arty and the differences between 105 and 150 mm arty and you cant do that in a game then its almost pitiful.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I mean even in reality 105 and 150 had been considered as different and for different purpose. 105 was considered as medium arty while 150 as heavy arty. And so we should do in game! We should not even compare those two directly with each other but thats what you try to do.

The 105 of the Priest should be stop acting like a 155mm gun then...

I mean, lmao, a 150 mm arty unit as fastest howitzer? this is the real joke here. Remove the ability and ammo HT could make the barrage 20 points cheaper.

The real joke here is how the Priest is having more range than the Hummel with the help of the freaking abilities which are provided by the spotters while also being almost as deadly as the 150mm gun of the Hummel.

A Nonstop arty party with wespes, especially with res trade (something you completely forgot about i think).

Something u completely forgot about I think; Brits can always maintain more res even with less territories due to the HQ trucks upgrade! Yet, the Priest salvos are still way much cheaper as well as more deadly in fact... Not to mention that it comes too early.

Ammo HTs should reduce the barrage prices by 40 at least. And the Nebels barrage should be reduced by 15 when the truck is nearby. Don't forget that the RA doc 75mm HTs arty barrage costs only 25 ammo being very precise than any 150mm Nebel as Sukin mentioned...

[Kasbah]

I also would choose ten times a Priest over a Hummel. Hummel shot (especially the strong one) is devastating, but in no way it is 2 times stronger than a Priest's. Therefore the ammo half track should really be buffed to be worth. It is not cheap and it needs command points (not to mention when it explodes it severely damages units around, so Hummels, easily reached by Priests with their amazing range, for example). Hence I think 25 ammo reduction would be more fair to make them worth. Now I always avoid Hummels, too costly, and go for Wespes, best bang for the buck.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

@Hawks
The reason why axis have more arty than alies is pretty obvious from my point of view, USA and Brits have more emplacements and off map support stuff, such as air strikes and arty call ins. Axis in return have an advantage in amount of available VT's and mobile howitzers.

As for me, late stage of game is quite unbalanced at the moment, alies don't even rely on CW arty support anymore ( since the release of the patch I ve seen RA quite a few times ) because they don't need it, Flaks are shit, naked one often dyes faster than it can make a few shots, emplaced one is too costly, especially together with Luft pioneers ( 970 mp omg, it's a price of a tiger just for a stationary cannon which requires additional 75 ammo every time when it have to protect itself against infantry ). Basically the only doc which can somehow turn the game using emplacements is Defence, moreover, it's the only doc which builds fortifications at all. At the same time RE, RA, Infantry always filling up the entire map with emplacements + AB sometimes goes for a mg and paks drop spam. Still wondering why axis have more arty huh?

Infantry is also no longer a force where axis have and edge over the alies. Luft paras are too expensive, hardly can be combined with something and being overrun even by free rifles spam in late game, RAF and AB are simply infantry kings in late game, coz they get huge amount of different buffes. Storms are doing their job very well, but BK player hardly can stand an inf fight against alies, since he must spend a lot of mp into tanks production.

The answer why balance is broken is simple: The main rule of factions was ruined, it always was presented as "flexible multipurpose but expensive axis docs against cheap but hardly dependent on teamwork alies docs". Due to some changes this rule is not working anymore ( KCH turned into a grens spam, Luft practically lost their Defence power because of weak Flaks and nerfed sd2, TH doc turned into a boring td's campy doc. At the same time RAF for instance can be played solo at the moment, so as Inf, Armor doc got a HUGE buff, together with increasing Tigers prices, delaying pz4 mass prod and decreasing res trade effectiveness.

I really prefer the old docs style with RA - for megadeath arty, AB - infantry butchers, Armor - tanks spam after middle game.

[kwok]

I don't see 88's weakened? I haven't had a problem holding with 88s. I don't put nakeds in the front, cuz I think that's kind of.... strategically unsound....
I also don't see why emplacements on either side should have the capability to "turn the game". Defensive structures should be used for defense shouldn't they as opposed to turn arounds?

In terms of luft inf vs allies, I so far have had pretty good success with that too, except against hyper upgraded RAF. The gebirs and SS are mega powerful and have so much HP. Plus, if allied inf is really that much of a problem, then I just make the wirbelwind/nebels or however you spell it. Honestly, I think the only lacking thing for PE is smoke. Luft nebels can't crack emplacements worth shit (they can decrew but it's easy to repair and recrew), the bombing run is great but with the crazy long cooldown+price for just ONE emplacement most of the time, it's just not worth it, panthers are supposed to be spearheading but are stopped by 17pdrs easy. I think PE just need smoke to get their pios in and toss bundle grenades everywhere like theyre supposed to. Right now pios are only good for early game close quarter rushes. After that, they'll just too fragile and don't have the tools to do their original job: clearing emplacements. Luft just can't do emplacements, which is why they lose to inf doc almost always to mortar pits, AT emplacemntrs, and mg nests.

[Krieger Blitzer]

I don't see 88's weakened? I haven't had a problem holding with 88s. I don't put nakeds in the front, cuz I think that's kind of.... strategically unsound....

The flak 88s actually recieved 3x nerf all at once;
-Less range.
-Less survivability for naked ones.
-Less stronger against Churchills.
Yet.. no price reductions at all!
I have seen a Croc engaging 3 88s all at the same time while decrewing each so easily. Not to mention that it only requires 8 CPs being simply too powerful at this early stage of the game!!

On the other hand the 107mm mortars only recieved less HP...

[kwok]

The less survivability for naked and weakened against churchills I actually don't mind and think is well deserved otherwise I think luft would counter both RAF and RE way too hard, essentially forcing RA doc. But the range nerf seems excessive, is it meant to balance against the nerfed avre? If that's the case I don't see how nerfing the range helps. I haven't "felt" the range nerf though to be honest. Relatively, I still see the 88 outranging tanks and serving its purpose to me. I've held a lot of ground with just one emplaced 88 before on 3v3's. I've also had trouble assaulting emplaced 88's. The naked ones I just see are used horribly... Of course I can take those because they put the goddamn gun on the front line as opposed to a back end support weapon. I've had naked 88's decimate by overlooking a hill on dust and stones while my main line built a semi decent wall for the 88 to work. Was I bombed? Not really no because I kept the strategic pressure else where to divert arty attention.
All in all, in my opinion, emplaced 88's still do what theyre meant to do and naked 88's are just used wrong across many players.

Mortar pits... I still have little opinion on because I honestly haven't come across them that much. And each time I have, it's always against a camper who I normally either pre-emptively bomb to hell or rush before they can set up. Big maps really help with that. But, I won't argue they're fucking annoying cowardly weapons.

[Warhawks97]

@Hawks
The reason why axis have more arty than alies is pretty obvious from my point of view, USA and Brits have more emplacements and off map support stuff, such as air strikes and arty call ins. Axis in return have an advantage in amount of available VT's and mobile howitzers.

As for me, late stage of game is quite unbalanced at the moment, alies don't even rely on CW arty support anymore ( since the release of the patch I ve seen RA quite a few times ) because they don't need it, Flaks are shit, naked one often dyes faster than it can make a few shots, emplaced one is too costly, especially together with Luft pioneers ( 970 mp omg, it's a price of a tiger just for a stationary cannon which requires additional 75 ammo every time when it have to protect itself against infantry ). Basically the only doc which can somehow turn the game using emplacements is Defence, moreover, it's the only doc which builds fortifications at all. At the same time RE, RA, Infantry always filling up the entire map with emplacements + AB sometimes goes for a mg and paks drop spam. Still wondering why axis have more arty huh?

Infantry is also no longer a force where axis have and edge over the alies. Luft paras are too expensive, hardly can be combined with something and being overrun even by free rifles spam in late game, RAF and AB are simply infantry kings in late game, coz they get huge amount of different buffes. Storms are doing their job very well, but BK player hardly can stand an inf fight against alies, since he must spend a lot of mp into tanks production.

The answer why balance is broken is simple: The main rule of factions was ruined, it always was presented as "flexible multipurpose but expensive axis docs against cheap but hardly dependent on teamwork alies docs". Due to some changes this rule is not working anymore ( KCH turned into a grens spam, Luft practically lost their Defence power because of weak Flaks and nerfed sd2, TH doc turned into a boring td's campy doc. At the same time RAF for instance can be played solo at the moment, so as Inf, Armor doc got a HUGE buff, together with increasing Tigers prices, delaying pz4 mass prod and decreasing res trade effectiveness.

I really prefer the old docs style with RA - for megadeath arty, AB - infantry butchers, Armor - tanks spam after middle game.

Well, allied do not rely sooo much on RA doc anymore thx to RAF arty cromwell and RE as breakthrough doc. But no, RE gets either their tanks and very few emplacments or only emplacments. And thats how i played and seen RE. They either spammed emplacments (which i cleaned with Fw190 bombing runs which too many underestimate) or they got tanks. I did made a breakhtrough with one HE churchill, command tank and two AA tanks, Inf section and leuitnant. And you know what? Despite overrepair on all tanks, Hull down for all tanks and three most deadly CW Anti inf tanks i did lose them all to schrecks and fausts. I did have my churchill in front in hull down, AA tanks left and right behind it in hull down and inf section vet 3 and brens but axis just send inf with schrecks and fausts and won the fight.


Also 4 brits did play against 4 axis at montargis. But when KT came the RE doc just died. Crocc churchill, two comets, 17 pdr emplacment and command tank couldnt stand the KT. The kT got penetrated just once and killing all tanks. He didnt even care that he was staying in range of the 17 pdr emplacment.


As long as allied have no arty ready to kill the KT and as long as the allied guy has no superior micro skill that enables to flank the KT effectively the KT can be hardly stopped by allied tanks (The SP comes once in a game and needs the command car afterall)


And i wonder why you again ran for the 88. Reduce luft pios cost by a lot (-100 MP or whatever). Maybe drop them to idk.... 280-300 MP coming in as call in and without any stg and MP40´s and being pure builder and repair units for Luftwaffe. And if you want add the arty barrage for luftwaffes 88 as well.

But why keeps everybody smashing on the 88´s as such? They are simply multirole weapons and when they work as an howitzer like the defensive doc 88 then you really cant complain to get so much "bonuses" over normal howitzer by paying basically just 25 MP more for it.

The Luft inf is afterall one of the strongest. Thing is that it cant stand combined arms. But as long as only inf is fighting then Luftwaffe inf can compete with many enemie soldiers and squads, especially when shooting from a defensive position.



Axis in late game need to be played more carefully in late game but can afterall be powerfull. The KT can lead a spearhead against USF forces since it got almost unpenetrationable for US guns.

And who says BK doc must build bigger tanks later? If they do teamwork like allis then the Terror guy might keep up a Panther G supply while Bk keeps going for more and more storms and Ostwinds. And if the terror guy rans out of fuel then he can get some gren squads and walking stuka and BK players takes over the tank part. And you can keep going that way.

Just the main "problem" afterall is that lots of axis guys are not yet used to show the teamplay and coordination most allieds player do have. They got simply used that it is ok to "play their own game" while allied learned over years that they have to keep an eye for their teammates and to defend and attack together. But it is changing. Especially many of the newer BK players showing already a better teamwork behaviour than most of the "old school". I mean in the past days and weeks ive been playing with random axis players that did wrote in teamchat what their plan is, what they do next and if i could support them there or if i launch an attack together with them. Ive never seen that before on axis side that players communicate so much in the chat to tell the team plans, ideas etc. Sure, they still lacking the micro, speed and knowlegde but in terms of teamwork ( or the attempts) did increase by a lot.

The flak 88s actually recieved 3x nerf all at once;
-Less range.
-Less survivability for naked ones.
-Less stronger against Churchills.
Yet.. no price reductions at all!
I have seen a Croc engaging 3 88s all at the same time while decrewing each so easily. Not to mention that it only requires 8 CPs being simply too powerful at this early stage of the game!!

On the other hand the 107mm mortars only recieved less HP...

hmm... maybe.... maybe they overperformed? Winning by lining up 11 88´s like a brigde from one base to the other base and which only could be prevented by RA doc or more accurately: Vet Priest

Its a god damn 400 MP Howitzer that offers also protection against various threats!

Oh... a crocc churchill? what its 172 mm armor designed for? Right: To resist average and heavier AT! Yes, 88 L/56 at that time is kind of avergare AT!
The crocc (and churchills) is a very special allied tank! OH, wait.... Axis have a special Tank destroyer doctrine! You may take into consideration that it might be an option to use this doc against crocc? I tell you, nothing is easier to kill allied armor as with Th doc. But you might have hard times against infantry. Ive been facing and killing crocc in a single ambush with Panzerschreck. The 88 is simply no longer 100% anti everything anymore. Now its only a 99% anti everything weapon. But yeah, its too weak coz allieds have one unit that reliable bounces that weapon.

The very main critic on 88´s i can see is that the combined cost of Luftwaffe pios and 88 is too high. Not that 88´s (especially def doc one) became too useless and expensive.

I also would choose ten times a Priest over a Hummel. Hummel shot (especially the strong one) is devastating, but in no way it is 2 times stronger than a Priest's. Therefore the ammo half track should really be buffed to be worth. It is not cheap and it needs command points (not to mention when it explodes it severely damages units around, so Hummels, easily reached by Priests with their amazing range, for example). Hence I think 25 ammo reduction would be more fair to make them worth. Now I always avoid Hummels, too costly, and go for Wespes, best bang for the buck.

In previous versions the Wespe had not been in same tree as Hummel. The wespe got unlocked after roadblocks and after 3 CP. The cost of wespe was 360/40 while howitzers cost 400/50 at that time (naked). There you really never saw a wespe!. Thet got changed. The Wespe cost increase and the fact that the 4 CP´s for wespe is already almost half the way to Hummel made this unit being used a lot more often.


Also you cant say "best bang for the buck" and generalize it. Since i can remember i used wespe to fight medium defenses and soft targets. PAKs and stuff. But whenever i did face strong allied arty, armor and Defense i do use the 210 nebler in mid stage and the Hummel in late. As i already said a single Hummel shot can be more cost effective than Wespe one. Many players do make the mistake to use only Wespe and wasting more ammo as they would do with hummel. While they shoot several salvos with wespes to kill an emplacment (which gets repaired during salvo break) and thus wasing up to 200 ammo, the Hummel kills the emplacment right with first salvo and two hits for 100 ammo (or 85 with HT.

The 105 arty is simply a medium arty, the 150 mm designed as heavy defense crusher arty. Both are not always cost effective and not cost effective at the same time. If so there wouldnt be a need to have these different arty types. Its part of the commanders skill to figure out if he needs medium arty or heavy arty. If he decides correctly he always makes a very cost effective use. If he doesnt then he did not make a good decision.

So when you fire 150 mm against a normal pak then you have wasted too much since a 105 can do so as well.
If you shoot an boosted emplacment with an 105 that needs 3 savlos then you wasted ammo again since the 150 could have done it better, faster and for cheaper cost.

And simply keep that in mind.

[Krieger Blitzer]

@Kwok;
All the 3 nerfs upon the flak 88s are surely deserved... And so would also be the price reduction as a result after all.

But I think u answered urself so far.. as u clearly said that the range nerf was probably a bit too excessive, however that why wondering if any players would risk building an 88 on the front line then??!!

@Hawks;
I don't want to jump out far away over the main subject of this topic down here which was actually about the Hummel probably as a comparison somewhat to the Priest in the first place which is believed (for the Priest) to be doubtlessly more superior than the Hummel which is BS even according to the majority here.. but well;

But why keeps everybody smashing on the 88´s as such? They are simply multirole weapons and when they work as an howitzer like the defensive doc 88 then you really cant complain to get so much "bonuses" over normal howitzer by paying basically just 25 MP more for it.

Its a god damn 400 MP Howitzer that offers also protection against various threats!

U don't pay anymore fuel for it too I wonder???!!! Naked 88s don't die very fast recently or what??!!

Such a misleading kind of speech specifically that part regarding the KT... Obviously ur fictional stories is telling us about a holy version of the KT of which I am pretty sure that it's not the one currently represented in Bk mod!
The 76s are still capable of penetrating the KT often enough.

But did u know?! Even the Pershing shouldn't be able to ever penetrate the front armor of that thing anyhow.. not even at a short distance or range of 100m!! The 90mm gun had a maximum penetration power that is estimated as 180mm at such a very short range. While the KT had a 230mm effective frontal armor thickness due to the sloping rate it has! Even the SP would be struggling so hard at a range of 500m btw. Don't believe me? Maybe go and do a test drive with the SP in WT... It's allowed for any gold tank.. and then try hitting just a Panther's front using ur 90mm gun and not even a KT!!! Results are gonna be so surprising to u. Don't like WT? Try doing this in WoT, the same thing...

A single Comet or a Firefly with command tank is able to take down the KT in Bk somehow on the other hand.

Funny how u r claiming the Allies players to be so experienced while the Axis ones are always too stupid to react!

Clearly I do NOT demand any form of buffing back the 88s once again. As I also didn't complain about how strong are the Churchills against them now, cuz they are supposed to be strong for sure... But one more last time; 88s are supposed to be cheaper as well.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

KT KT KT..... Long Tom and KT is dead, single gammon bomb and KT is dead, typhoon rocket run and KT is dead, AB thunderbolt patrol and KT is dead, vet priest on the field, KT is dead, SP with command car and KT is dead. In most of the games King instantly dies because of one of this counters, take into account that by the time it comes alies always have this things. Personally, I have succeeded in using KT only 2 times, once at Halfaya pass, and once long time ago on LaFiere against Veto and company.

As for Luft, we did a very simple experiment with Terence, I suggest you to repeat it, try 1v1 infantry only mode, Luft against inf, and see how long will it stand.

[Armacalic]

KT KT KT..... Long Tom and KT is dead, single gammon bomb and KT is dead, typhoon rocket run and KT is dead, AB thunderbolt patrol and KT is dead, vet priest on the field, KT is dead, SP with command car and KT is dead. In most of the games King instantly dies because of one of this counters, take into account that by the time it comes alies always have this things. Personally, I have succeeded in using KT only 2 times, once at Halfaya pass, and once long time ago on LaFiere against Veto and company.

As for Luft, we did a very simple experiment with Terence, I suggest you to repeat it, try 1v1 infantry only mode, Luft against inf, and see how long will it stand.

Why would anyone want to take the "arms" out of "combined arms or die" faction?

Also, of course, because only allies have abilities and weapons that counter heavy tanks, and germany has absolutely nothing, zero, zilch, nada to deal with pesky AT tanks. Of course, why did nobody notice before?

[Yafa]

Obviously ur fictional stories is telling us about a holy version of the KT of which I am pretty sure that it's not the one currently represented in Bk mod!

"holy king tiger version"
hahaha
i like this sentence :- )

on 22 may on the 'general' department ... i found a nice topic posted by the user "jimqwilleran" called "the great experiment" from where i would like to quote this part :-

3. Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B "Königstiger" vs AT

US M5 76 mm AT gun


Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o (no scratch)

Ordnance Quick-Firing 17-pounder


Normal:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o o o
Special:
1400 m: o o o
900 m: o o o
450 m: o o o
closest: o x x (turret only)

i am not really an expert player but i must say it clear , +1 for sukin kot and +1 for tiger1996 .. i also think the king tiger is much worse than it has to be in this game sadly !

[Warhawks97]

KT KT KT..... Long Tom and KT is dead, single gammon bomb and KT is dead, typhoon rocket run and KT is dead, AB thunderbolt patrol and KT is dead, vet priest on the field, KT is dead, SP with command car and KT is dead. In most of the games King instantly dies because of one of this counters, take into account that by the time it comes alies always have this things. Personally, I have succeeded in using KT only 2 times, once at Halfaya pass, and once long time ago on LaFiere against Veto and company.

As for Luft, we did a very simple experiment with Terence, I suggest you to repeat it, try 1v1 infantry only mode, Luft against inf, and see how long will it stand.

make 1 vs 1 on bigger maps. Whenever we played on bigger maps we hadnt issues with "inf doc emplacment spam". I would say that playing on bigger maps it makes much much more sense for inf doc to get the ranger vet upgrade and ranger truck for high flexibility and Jumbo+M10 unlock. Ive never seen a 107 there being somehow problematic.

but sure, when you play on a map that provides maybe 270 MP per min and when inf doc gets for 425 CP a mortar that can be put in base and which covers 3/4 of the map while luft needs to pay 550 MP for a single inf squad.... what to say. I am not sure but in the past i played inf doc a lot more often with PE infantry and Airstrikes+Panther. Also i am not seldomly unlocking the Hetzer before getting any luft inf. For the early game sniper+PE inf and mortar HT is quite sufficient. The hetzer deals with every vehicle and tank that comes. From that basis you can introduce some luft inf over the time. Thats how my luft style changed now.

And yeah.... KT/JT/Elepahnt vs inf/RAF/AB is simply a players fault. if anything commandos and AB´s are hard counter to that tanks due to sticky and gommans with realistic change to get close enough.

A guy at wolfheze was sending two pershings against US. I had a IV/70 and two AT squads ambushed. Both pershings died in a blink of an eye.


But if you sent KT vs RE or armor doc its fucking devastating. Also against inf when long tom isnt ready of when it fails. Same with Jagdpanther. In the past weeks these two units bashed entire armor and RE forces. 1 jagdpnather or KT killed either two firefly, 2 churchill and AA tank. The KT killed alone two comets, crocc church, command tank, M10, AA tank, 95 mm churchill and a 17 pdr alone. Only once the second comet managed to pen the KT once when he got closer a bit. With vet 2 and 3 RE couldnt do anything to kill the KT. And when SP is dead same applies to armor doc, just it has more options such as pershing or many easy eights to circle it.

certain units simply do have hard counters but that applies to all. And such as inf doc and RAF can protect armor and RE doc against axis TD´s and KT´s, so can TD doc protect BK or luft players from being shattered by too many shermans.

i am not really an expert player but i must say it clear , +1 for sukin kot and +1 for tiger1996 .. i also think the king tiger is much worse than it has to be in this game sadly !

Yeah, we could add random breakdowns, Random fuel income drops for axis. That would make KT really cool.... joke aside, as i mentioned above, some units simply have certain hard counters. There are some certain abilties that can be considered as hard counter. Though i must say that P-47 bomber is not really a reliable tank killer as the bombs have pretty random damage and strange AoE. The KT full HP can survive a rocket raid from RAF and airplanes also have hard counters.


But if you stay on the field, using reconassaince and little infantry support as flank protection there arent many field untis on allied side that can kill that unit. As units you can count vet priest but even there trouble can occure when the room to maneuver is not restricted by narrows etc. The SP can win with command car. But he still has to be careful. with vet the KT´s deadliness grows more as those of most other tanks.


But just because certain units die fast to hardcounters it doesnt mean they are usless or anything. If so then every unit would be usless. And generally i think there are other units that suffer the "uslesness" and "unworthness". Just to mention two: PE sdkfz 250 with 75 mm gun and reward of 37 mm HT. Stuart tanks.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

First of all: I meant infantry only mode, inf doc vs Luft doc, no emplacements there obviously.

Second: When you will end up with this "cool stories"? Their credit value is zero, as I already said there, i can tell about thousand similar cases, for instance, few weeks before 2v2 game against Kwok, my Sherman E8 overrun 3 Paks at once, killed 3 tanks and arround 40 men in a counted mins (im pretty sure that kwok can confirm it here), from your logic - E8 is an ultimate game winner.

[kwok]

Why do inf only mode? Nothing is balanced for inf only mode.

I remember that game... I felt like that was just RNG god hates me in general. This is why I never get jumbos, SP, large tanks in general... RN-Jesus will just steal it from me.

[Warhawks97]

First of all: I meant infantry only mode, inf doc vs Luft doc, no emplacements there obviously.

Second: When you will end up with this "cool stories"? Their credit value is zero, as I already said there, i can tell about thousand similar cases, for instance, few weeks before 2v2 game against Kwok, my Sherman E8 overrun 3 Paks at once, killed 3 tanks and arround 40 men in a counted mins (im pretty sure that kwok can confirm it here), from your logic - E8 is an ultimate game winner.

I am probably the guy with the most successfull shermans. You dont need to tell me that. But in armor doc i can be successfull with them cause i can get many of them. So even when i fail 9 times to get insane stats with a sherman, one will be there at the end. Some good moving, some luck as well and there will be one "special sherman" that somehow got some nice stats.

What to say... i had an 76 sherman with 14 tank kills. I had an HE sherman with up to 100 kills. But still their combat value isnt really impressive. Its the mix of some upgrades (sandbags), supply yard, masses and stuff that makes them effective somehow.

But against certain enemies every units gets usless. So at the end you can only consider a unit as worth or not if it does what it is supposed to do.

A sherman is supposed to kill inf, support own inf and assualts, to be used not alone and embedded in a combined arms and to fight of enemie mediums to a certain degree. Against heavies and Panther they struggle a lot, against super heavies they must get on their rear. If you use shermans that way you will be ok with them and satisfied.

A Elephant is supposed to kill tanks and at best with a small "shield" of infantry in front of it. Make it that way and even a elephant can scale up high.

A KT nowadays is supposed to lead assaults (its armor got buffed by quite a lot). Its a mobile fortress with fat gun. It can engage every tank and stands most fire and kills inf (MG version) but is also able to cover his own and friendly units assault with smoke screen (Just as stug III), just axis more often fail to see such smoke advantages to cover advances and to get into grenade range.

It can destroy large forces of enemie tanks and if you cover flanks with 1-2 schrecks this tank dominates every god damn field. The combat value is increasing a lot with veterancy.

Also the more space you have the less dangerous is arty. You can move a lot more coz you are not limited by too many narrows or emplacments from all sides. But also as arty is either out of range or has to move first. But when you keep moving then arty isnt such a huge threat.