5.3.1 bugs

[Consti255]

Just a count of various bugs in the recent beta branch, which gets updated:

SE
- Sabotage sqaud still runs away after throwing a Satchel
-Sdkfz 250/8 and the 253 (observer) cant lay mines after the unlock

[MarKr]

The Sabo squad Satchel is an oversight and will be fixed.

The Observation HT never had mine-laying ability. It it is not its purpose to create mine fields. If people think the ability is necessary there, we could discuss adding it, but so far I don't see much reason for it to have it.

[Krieger Blitzer]

There is something wrong with the SE doc tech tree.. it's a glitch.
You can't unlock Firestorm after 3 CP as displayed, you must unlock both the observation truck AND the incendiary unlock as well.. so in total 5 CPs.

[Viper]

flame hetzer does not correctly require incendiary unlock but is available after the field repair upgrade for third building

[Krieger Blitzer]

SAS are unaffected by the camo change.

[MarKr]

There is something wrong with the SE doc tech tree.. it's a glitch.
You can't unlock Firestorm after 3 CP as displayed, you must unlock both the observation truck AND the incendiary unlock as well.. so in total 5 CPs.

It was intended to require that 5CP total. It might be the case that it is currently too weak to justify such a cost so maybe we could keep the old number of rockets so that the area is thorougly saturated with the fire damage, or some other change to make it a worthwhile ability.

flame hetzer does not correctly require incendiary unlock but is available after the field repair upgrade for third building

I forgot to change the requirement, will be fixed.

SAS are unaffected by the camo change.

I will check that.

[Krieger Blitzer]

It was intended to require that 5CP total. It might be the case that it is currently too weak to justify such a cost so maybe we could keep the old number of rockets so that the area is thorougly saturated with the fire damage, or some other change to make it a worthwhile ability.

5 CP with more rockets is fair enough.

However; i think even if it stays at 5 CPs, the tech tree is still bugged.
I should probably get some private video to demonstrate the glitch.. meanwhile, let me try & explain the bug here:

So in order to get FireStorm currently you need to unlock;
Observation truck + incendiary >>> then the Firestorm.
OR
incendiary + Observation truck >>> then the Firestorm.

The issue is that Observation truck isn't linked in anyway to the incendiary unlock, yet.. it acts as they are subsequent to one another.
Do you get what i mean?

If not, let me grab a short unlisted clip for you to see.

[MarKr]

Do you get what i mean?

If not, let me grab a short unlisted clip for you to see.

I guess I don't know. The unlock tree looks like this for me.

So it is not like you need to get to Firestorm either from Observation halftrack OR from incendiary. You need both to have access to Firestorm. It is arty (that's why you need to unlock something from the arty line), but also fire-based weapon (that's why there's the dependancy on incendiary weapons unlock.

It is unusal that an unlock has two other unlocks as prerequisites, but as long as it makes the ability cost what we need, it is not a problem. Same as in Luft you can unlock the Command squad either from paradrop line, or from the defense line. There we needed to make the commander available as support to Fallshirms and Gebirgs but if you wanted to start with Gebirgs, you wouldn't get access to the commander unless you unlocked the Fallshirms too. That would force people to always start with Fallshirms, which was not desireable and so the unlock is accessible from two directions. As long as it serves its purpose, it's OK.

[Krieger Blitzer]

Ok, i thought it would actually be better if i use Microsoft Visio for this rather than a clip or a video, after all I have the entire Microsoft kit for our university course and we use such illustrations for presentations as well, this also saves me time.. so there we go:


Currently, this is how it looks like:

Which clearly indicates that the player can reach Firestorm after total 3 CPs from either the incendiary unlock OR the Observation truck unlock.

However, what's actually happening.. is this:

Which obviously doesn't look right.. since doctrines in CoH can't display or follow such a pattern.

If you wanted Firestorm to cost 5 CPs with the current display, then it would have to look something like this:

Which is basically the same as it is right now in the beta, except that the Firestorm would show 3 CPs instead of 1 CP on the other hand.
That said, this would also mean that you would have to subtract 2 other CPs from somewhere else in the doctrine and then add them to Firestorm accordingly (so we don't exceed 30 CPs in total) and i am not sure which unlock(s) could have a deduction. Maybe 1 CP from Sabotage squad & 1 CP from the Flag Destruction unlock underneath the Sabotage squad unlock? Not sure... Or you could leave it at 3 CPs but with fixed tech tree.

It is unusal that an unlock has two other unlocks as prerequisites, but as long as it makes the ability cost what we need, it is not a problem. Same as in Luft you can unlock the Command squad either from paradrop line, or from the defense line. There we needed to make the commander available as support to Fallshirms and Gebirgs but if you wanted to start with Gebirgs, you wouldn't get access to the commander unless you unlocked the Fallshirms too. That would force people to always start with Fallshirms, which was not desireable and so the unlock is accessible from two directions. As long as it serves its purpose, it's OK.

Furthermore; i understand the Luft example.. but the arrows aren't misleading there, so it's fine. (Although i am going to double check Luft)
Whereas here in SE doc on the beta, it's simply misleading to any new/average players.. so i am not sure if that fulfils the purpose specifically that doctrines are a fundamental aspect of the Game-play and we can't have it like this if we aim for the game quality, which Bk Mod has been particularly well known with, for years.

Hope i have explained it properly.

[MarKr]

OK so it is what I said. It may be confusing for the first time but once you know how it works (which you will realistically be able to figure out pretty fast during your first SE game), you know what it is.
What is up with this trend that when someone doesn't get something for the first time, people go all like "new players may get confused"? When people are new to any mod, everything is confusing. This is just about the thing that you need two unlocks to get the offmap. Any person with IQ even in lower average will get it on the go, it's not a rocket science.

[Krieger Blitzer]

OK so it is what I said. It may be confusing for the first time but once you know how it works (which you will realistically be able to figure out pretty fast during your first SE game), you know what it is.
What is up with this trend that when someone doesn't get something for the first time, people go all like "new players may get confused"? When people are new to any mod, everything is confusing. This is just about the thing that you need two unlocks to get the offmap. Any person with IQ even in lower average will understand get it on the go, it's not a rocket science.

MarKr, the tech tree shows something.. but does something else!
it shows 3 CPs are required, when in fact 5 CPs are needed... I checked Luft doc, there is nothing like that over there.
Every arrow indicates what it does in all doctrines...
Not like it's a super significant issue.. though, why have it like that when you can just re-organize it so it's properly displayed ?

The doctrine image clearly shows that you can go straight from incendiary/Observation truck to FireStorm for 3 CP?
Also, if you test it in-game.. it also messes up the item selection, in other words; it's creating a confliction within the doctrinal items.

Nevertheless; if you really think it's not a big deal.. then i am not pressuring you, but it would be nice if you can figure a fix for this at some point.

[Viper]

Not like it's a super significant issue.. though, why have it like that when you can just re-organize it so it's properly displayed ?

actually 5 command points is too much even when rockets increase in density because you still have the red flare......and the player already has the 280 nebelwerfer so no one will spend 5 points for this strike when they need to spend as many points for higher priority units like hotchkiss and hummel.

so the best solution to this is to keep it for 3 command points only, so you don't need to unlock both or reorganize the tree.

Also, if you test it in-game.. it also messes up the item selection, in other words; it's creating a confliction within the doctrinal items.

can confirm this......i cant roll back my selection with incendiary is stuck.

[MarKr]

MarKr, the tech tree shows something.. but does something else!

No, it shows what leads to the unlock. People might assume that you can unlock the Firestorm from either side. Once they play the game they will know you need both. Just as I said - one game and you'll know how it works, just as you found out in a single game.

Not like it's a super significant issue.. though, why have it like that when you can just re-organize it so it's properly displayed ?

Reorganizing would break up the whole tree. Moving CPs would also make something else available sooner, which isn't needed in this doc.

Also, if you test it in-game.. it also messes up the item selection, in other words; it's creating a confliction within the doctrinal items.

Not sure what you mean by item selection. The only items in the game are weapons. Are some weapon upgrades bugged? In response to this, Seha said:

can confirm this......i cant roll back my selection with incendiary is stuck.

But I'm not sure what "roll back" means in this case.

[Consti255]

Ah okay, so maybe just work on the text from the unlock than and change it abit, since it says "unlocks mine laying for vehicles", which in my mind says all vehicles are able to lay down, to unlocks mine laying to certain vehicles.

[Viper]

Reorganizing would break up the whole tree. Moving CPs would also make something else available sooner, which isn't needed in this doc.

cant we just have firestorm for 3 command points or does it have to be 5 points ?
so no reorganization will be needed and no confusion with unlocking both observation plus incendiary......
this way the player can reach firestorm for 3 points only from 2 ways....more simple like this and goes along with whats displayed on the tree.

But I'm not sure what "roll back" means in this case.

very hard to describe that without showing.
tiger......can you drop a clip?

[Consti255]

Honestly, it took me 3 seconds to get it lol.
Why are you saying the tec tree is broken?

[Viper]

Why are you saying the tec tree is broken?

because it is.
its not done properly and is causing problems......cant explain it better.

i see a bug, i report it.....players figuring it out does not mean its not broken.
just dont know how to explain it.

[Consti255]

its not broken.
It works, just because you find it confuesing for the first game,doesnt mean it needs to change?
Just adapt ?
I agree here with Markr, the "new player" reasoning is nonesense, because when you come from vCoH the whole mod is absolutely confuesing, are you really so interessted in changeing that thing?
Honestly, its not hard to understand that this unlock needs 2 requirements before.

[MarKr]

I still don't know what "roll back" means. If it is some bug or something game breaking, I will look into it and try to fix it. If it cannot be fixed, I would think about reverting it and and looking for an alternate solution. However, if the whole thing is just about "I thought it would cost 3CP in total but it is 5CP in total." then this one-time confusion isn't a problem. I would say that the whole tank or tank destroyer unlock path in TS doc is a more complicated concept and people now understand how it works, too.

[Consti255]

maybe he meens the unit ability sides when you switch them ?

[Krieger Blitzer]

What it means is that this part of the doctrine tree is glitched in selection.
Once you select incendiary then the observation, you can not "roll back" or revert the selection unless you have the point to choose something else then de-select, also.. if you choose incendiary first, in some cases it allows you to reach Firestorm straight away (for 3CPs) but observation unlock doesn't.

It's so weird & a complete mess, unfortunately my time is super booked.. but i will try to get a clip to show that at some point.

Meanwhile i advise this should be re-considered. Either keep it 3 CPs straight from both branches, or make it 5 CPs (i don't care) but either way, what i care about is that this should be implemented correctly.. which currently it's not.

So, this is not just about the player understanding the tech tree, it's about an error in the tree itself.

[MarKr]

I will check it out once more but just yesterday I tested this. I got 2CP, clicked on incendiary unlock (2CPs detracted, incendiary highlighted), then I clicked on the incendiary unlock again and I got the CPs back and the highlighted effect was removed. But maybe I still don't get the problem. I will fool around with it some more.

EDIT:
I just spent 5 minutes trying to get the bug.

I tried with 2CPs, always possible to "roll back". I tried with 4CPs - always possible to "roll back" when I select the two unlocks leading to Firestorm. No matter which I click on first. I tried it with 5 CPs, selecting the the two 2CP unlocks first, then the Firestorm and then "rolling back" one of the 2CP unlocks and the FIrestorm "unselected" itself accordingly. I will need a more detailed explanation how to reproduce it, or a video showing it in action.

[Consti255]

It worked for me, even after 4 tries.
I cannot report such bug.

[Warhawks97]

Typicall rag rug arround again. We keep creating more and more chaos in the doctrines. Even though you might get used to everything after a while, a huge part of what makes a game a good game is how it looks and how the UI is overall made. When i started with BK the unlock lines and arrows went usually from top to bottom and left to right. The Old TH doc is, when i remember things correctly, the first doc ever breaking with it was the old TH doc, the first and last reworked by old devs. However since then trees became more and more chaotic. Single unlocks randomly in place in various doctrines, trees going from left to right and back, unlocks that can be unlocked from two directions, arrows that sometimes show in both directions and so on. I honestly, i wouldnt be sure if i would be willing to spend my time into doctrine understanding today anymore if i would be a new player.

I would make things a alot easier:

Seperate this "mega branch" into two.
First branch: Observer HT-> Rework sector arty and make it an ability used by this vehicle-> Hummel

Second branch: Incendiary stuff-> Hotchkiss-> Res trade.

Get rid of: Firestorm and ammo HT unlock. Ammo Trucks and HT´s would always drop artillery barrage cost regardless of doctrine in the same way as they affect mortars universaly. The basic barrage cost of certain arty units can get adjusted if needed.

And if you really feel like you need a firestorm, just bring it in line with hotchkiss missiles and dont create such a nonsense unlock design. So you have missiles and fire on the one side, barrel artillery on the other side.


Not my personal favorit way of changing this doctrine, but it would be an easy solution and much better as to have this mega branch with weird understanding how what is supposed to unlock what and why.

[Diablo]

You need both to have access to Firestorm. It is arty (that's why you need to unlock something from the arty line), but also fire-based weapon (that's why there's the dependancy on incendiary weapons unlock.

Just wanted to chime in expressing my support for this reasoning. Now the firestorm needs just a bit of it's oomph back or maybe a cost drop, to be worth it.