4.8.5.0 Base AA emplacements vs Air support

[PiotrW]

Something's wrong with latest AA balancing. Since then Air reconnaissance (single plane - bombing run as well) is almost completely eliminated by enemy base defense/AA emplacements. As soon as plane/model is placed into the world, all AA guns aim and shoot it down immediately. Sometimes plane/model won't even show on map (field of vision), but it still consume ammo.
Let's see short replay: Egletons - player PE Luftwaffe vs CPU US Airborne - hard (about 30min. long).
10:25 - burning plane flying across the map
14:30 - plane invisible, but map is revealed along its path
17:50 - plane go down on US infantry (more fun than V1)
20:40 - nothing but red "ping" on minimap
25:40 - another "ghost"

[Warhawks97]

yeah, its crazy. In my last games my single Ostwind shot down all airplanes of the US bomber patrole and only one succeeded to drop the bombs before being shot down. In that short time my ostwind killed 8 or more airplanes and most occured not even on the minimap. I saw 3 on map and 8 got shot down lol. Its like the guns have 100% accuracy at any distance, 1-3 shot to kill, no aim time and no reload time. Sometimes there is a lucky airplane that is able to drop parts of its loadout but its rather are. Still base AA seems to be weaker as an single AA Tank with AA mode (Ostwind, Möbelwagen, Wirbelwind, M16).

And some off-topic but Wirbelwind seem to have real trouble against veted inf such as commandos and Airborne ranger (esspecially when those make a frontal assault). And Brits AA tank is worst in AA and anti inf of all anti air units in game.


But maybe the accuracy and accuracy at distance is too high against airplanes. Its crazy currently.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

As i remember Mark wanted to return base AA stats to 4.8.4 version.

[Wolf]

In next version, recon planes should be resistant to fire when not on the map, I am not exactly suřre that it works or if that helps, because I tried like 10 planes on the old version and none did what you have on replay, so it might be map/AI related, dunno. Try it on new version with recon planes, maybe it will be better.

[MarKr]

As i remember Mark wanted to return base AA stats to 4.8.4 version.

This is another possible solution, however Bases would be very poorly protected against incoming planes unles you would keep another AA unit there. We are trying to bypass it by what Wolf wrote. If it doesn't solve the issue we'll look for another solution.

[Warhawks97]

As i remember Mark wanted to return base AA stats to 4.8.4 version.

This is another possible solution, however Bases would be very poorly protected against incoming planes unles you would keep another AA unit there. We are trying to bypass it by what Wolf wrote. If it doesn't solve the issue we'll look for another solution.

The bases have usually tons of AA guns so its ok when airplanes arround base area get killed more often than elsewhere. However its currently pretty crazy how many airplanes are shot down quickly by just a single AA gun (in aa mode). Maybe a bit reduced accuracy against airplanes (esspecially it distance) could help already.

[MarKr]

Problem is that when a unit attacks a plane there are exceptions such as AA unit ignores weapon range restrictions (so I actually don't know what accuracy value it uses), also AAs only attack planes if the plane's flight path crosses a ceratin area around the AA... It's pretty messy and hard to orient in it :/

AA modes were intentionally made better than non-AA modes. Maybe I overdid it... We'll see. If it is still that crazy with the latest changes, some accuracy nerfs against planes might be introduced.

[crimax]

It should be fixed ASAP.
OK better stats for AA units but this is too much .... absolutely.

[MarKr]

Wolf had already posted that next patch will bo comming in next 2 - 3 weeks and AA's issues will be addressed there. We'll look into AA modes of vehicles too.

[PiotrW]

Problem is that when a unit attacks a plane there are exceptions such as AA unit ignores weapon range restrictions (so I actually don't know what accuracy value it uses), also AAs only attack planes if the plane's flight path crosses a ceratin area around the AA... It's pretty messy and hard to orient in it :/

AA modes were intentionally made better than non-AA modes. Maybe I overdid it... We'll see. If it is still that crazy with the latest changes, some accuracy nerfs against planes might be introduced.

HELL'o again. Just checked 4.8.6.0 v2 - problem remains.
Small, square, 1vs1 map Egletons wasn't good example. I've just played Linden - large (i think it's about three times longer map than Egletons). Once again PE Luft vs 2x US Airborne (cpu).
Every time i Call Air recon/FW bombing run, to fly ALONG the map TOWARDS US headquarters, it's shot down immediately. It doesn't even appear over my own HQ (only red "ping" on minimap). I could also see US HQ AA quad 50. droping smoke and shoting for a second.
But if i try to fly ACROSS the map (no enemy HQ in plane's flight path) recon or bombing succeed.

[MarKr]

Every time i Call Air recon/FW bombing run, to fly ALONG the map TOWARDS US headquarters, it's shot down immediately.
....
But if i try to fly ACROSS the map (no enemy HQ in plane's flight path) recon or bombing succeed.

Yeah, that's connected to this:

AAs only attack planes if the plane's flight path crosses a ceratin area around the AA...

We can tweak the weapon stats so they have less chance to take down the plane but with the base defense it is kinda problem - on most maps each player has two AA positions (sometimes more) to defend the base sector. Team bases are usually close to each other so the the "AA attack zones" overlap so when a plane flies in that direction usually 4 - 8 (depending on number of players) AA emplacements fire at a single plane which means tons of bullets flying around the plane which logicaly results in pretty quick kill :/

OK, problem noted. We'll find some solution to this...

[Warhawks97]

i have also a question to this. Are the stats of vehicles in AA mode better as those from normal stationary AA guns? Because actually they should be equal so far (a stationary AA vehicle is actually nothing else than a stationary AA gun. It compensates recoil better and the vehicle is less "shaking" when vehicle is shooting). It currently seems vehicles in AA mode are more effective as stationary AA´s. I might be wrong.

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

i have also a question to this. Are the stats of vehicles in AA mode better as those from normal stationary AA guns? Because actually they should be equal so far (a stationary AA vehicle is actually nothing else than a stationary AA gun. It compensates recoil better and the vehicle is less "shaking" when vehicle is shooting). It currently seems vehicles in AA mode are more effective as stationary AA´s. I might be wrong.

Stationary AA's have no HE modes.

[Warhawks97]

i have also a question to this. Are the stats of vehicles in AA mode better as those from normal stationary AA guns? Because actually they should be equal so far (a stationary AA vehicle is actually nothing else than a stationary AA gun. It compensates recoil better and the vehicle is less "shaking" when vehicle is shooting). It currently seems vehicles in AA mode are more effective as stationary AA´s. I might be wrong.

Stationary AA's have no HE modes.

M16 also not.... but i havent compared M16 stationary mode with stationary quad cal 50. In case of axis HE tanks that might be the reason but Möbelwagen has also no HE mode.

And also single 20 mm seem to be more effective as quad 20 mm.

[MarKr]

I think that some Axis vehicles such as Wirblewind need to have HE mode active in order to activate static AA mode. On the other hand wirble emplacement has no HE mode so it is logical that Wirblewind tank in static AA has better damage.
TBH I don't remember from top of my head how exactely the changes were made but I think that in general if vehicle has static AA mode, it has better accuracy than when it is not in static AA.
If the static AA mode also requires HE mode active, it also has a damage buff. These buff however should not be somehow drastic. Or at least were not meant to be. As I said AA effectiveness revision is comming...

[Warhawks97]

Wirbelwind and Ostwind need HE ammo for stationary mode but i dont get even why they do need it and why damage is then buffed against airplanes. Usually when fighting airplanes the german loaded their canons with a mix of AP and HE rounds (Most famous development the so called "Minengeschoss" But despite that HE mode stuff i actually only wanted to say that a vehicle in stationary AA mode is not more as a normal static AA gun build by pios. Thus accuracy of AA vehicles should be that of normal static AA weapons.... thats was my point.

[MarKr]

Wirbelwind and Ostwind need HE ammo for stationary mode but i dont get even why they do need it and why damage is then buffed against airplanes.

This is because game mechanics...when you turn on a permanent mode (HE/AA) the game changes weapon file to a different one. So when Wirblewind uses HE mode, it technically doesn't buff its curent stats but "swaps" the weapon for a different one. So when you then use the static AA mode it doesn't just take the weapon as it was in HE, but swaps the weapon for a different one again so by "buffed damage" I meant buffed when compared to normal mode without HE...

Anyway I take into consideration your coment

[Sukin-kot (SVT)]

Just make an old stats for base AA, mobile AAs are fine and im against any changes for them, especially when airstrikes became cheaper.

[MarKr]

Then you'll practically lose anti-air defense of your base unless you park an AA vehicle in there and keep it sitting there... We would like to avoid that if another acceptable solution is found.

[PiotrW]

Every time i Call Air recon/FW bombing run, to fly ALONG the map TOWARDS US headquarters, it's shot down immediately.
....
But if i try to fly ACROSS the map (no enemy HQ in plane's flight path) recon or bombing succeed.

Yeah, that's connected to this:

AAs only attack planes if the plane's flight path crosses a ceratin area around the AA...

We can tweak the weapon stats so they have less chance to take down the plane but with the base defense it is kinda problem - on most maps each player has two AA positions (sometimes more) to defend the base sector. Team bases are usually close to each other so the the "AA attack zones" overlap so when a plane flies in that direction usually 4 - 8 (depending on number of players) AA emplacements fire at a single plane which means tons of bullets flying around the plane which logicaly results in pretty quick kill :/

OK, problem noted. We'll find some solution to this...

Some more info:

Egletons, 1/1 - small. RAF vs WH (cpu - hard) this time. All (2) WH HQ AA emplacements act the same as US counterparts, but it is far less efective than US Quad 50.
Every single plane in its path is still being attacked as soon as it is placed in the world, but it is not instantly destroyed. So in Allies vs Axis scenario it is possible to recon or bomb with air support.
For a while there was additional Sdkfz 234/1 AA, couple of planes was shot over the map (while 3 AA units active), but most of recons/bombing runs was succesful.
I'm not sure how does it work on larger maps, where distance to AA emplacement is much longer.

Conclusion:

Axis 20mm kwk (let's say 2 or 3 units) is able to defend some area. Still got to check how it is performing on medium/large maps.

Allied Quad 50. AA base emplacement is a insta-kill for every plane in its path - DEFINITELY BROKEN.

There is also Brit Bofors and Axis... errr.... "4 barrel shoota" (forgot its name) to verify.

[Wolf]

Even the recon plane is shotdown by Quad 50 instantly? I added like 2 seconds where it should get almost no damage (if I added it to right file).

[PiotrW]

Even the recon plane is shotdown by Quad 50 instantly? I added like 2 seconds where it should get almost no damage (if I added it to right file).

Yes, verified with 4.8.6.0v2 on medium 2/2 map. PE Luft vs US Airborne (cpu). All US HQ Q50. fire at once, but even single one is enough to block recon/bombing completly.

ps.
Two more things...
1st. I'm not sure, but Q50. (without sandbags) built on secured sector is not affected ? Haven't noticed if it is shoting planes with HQ AA even if it is in plane path. Is it AA or "anti ground" only?.

2nd. Volksgrenadiers shot at Brit Air recon with picked up Bren when the plane was in its range i'm almost sure i saw that twice.

[MarKr]

2nd. Volksgrenadiers shot at Brit Air recon with picked up Bren when the plane was in its range i'm almost sure i saw that twice.

That's weird...Brens have set the "AA_weapon" parameter to "false" so they should not target planes... Not a priority right now but I'll look into it.

[Wolf]

2nd. Volksgrenadiers shot at Brit Air recon with picked up Bren when the plane was in its range i'm almost sure i saw that twice.

That's weird...Brens have set the "AA_weapon" parameter to "false" so they should not target planes... Not a priority right now but I'll look into it.

That means, its working ! (that what I said about AA and TT )

[MarKr]

That means, its working ! (that what I said about AA and TT )

It certainly seems that way Will test it to be sure.